Is refusal basically a controlled tantrum?

[tgrimes]

I was wondering if refusal could be considered a tantrum - whether it is refusal to do work, refusal to engage in an activity, etc... just wondering your thoughts...

[peglem]

My opinion- I think refusal and defiant behaviors are different than tantrums and my child has both. Let me qualify that. My child's tantrums seem to be beyond her control. They just happen, often without any apparent external trigger. Defiance and noncompliance just seem to be her way of trying to have some control or choice in her life. In fact, often, when given a choice over how she will perform a task, her defiance is diffused. Like with her homework (almost always practicing spelling words) she can choose to do it on the computer, with her aug comm device or hand over hand with her choice of marker. She doesn't get to choose whether or not she will do it- just how. Hope that answers your question. I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding the question in your case.

[matika]

I think refusal is more of a willing act then tantrums are. When I think of how I feel when i am frustrated, I feel like that would be more of a tantrum then simply making my choice of not to do something. Two different things.
When I compare that with my kids, it sees to go hand on hand.
Joshua is a tantrum boy, he takes fits and will fall on the ground and kick and his face shows such frustration. Like when he can't do something, or find something or things go wrong.
refusal comes with maturity. I think that is why babies are more prone to having tantrums then older kids, but in our kids case, maturity is distorted in ways, because even as they aquire skills, to refuse to do something by thinking 'this is not what I want to do' takes practice. As a tantrum been 'OH NO NOT AGAIN, I DON'T BELIVE IT OH MY GOD" well that is the way I read Joshua's tantrums lol, the world just crumbles around him.
well not sure if I made sence with all my rambling.

matika

[LIZARD]

Originally Posted by matika

I think refusal is more of a willing act than tantrums are.

I agree, and it's actually very normal behavior. Think about when any of you were kids. Didn't you boldly refuse to do certain things once in a while? I was a goody-two-shoes (believe it or not! ), and I remember situations when I resisted authority. It's just human nature to be obstinant occasionally. Tantrums, by contrast, are (at least in my observation) more of a byproduct of frustration.

My $.02 (which I needed a loan to give! )

LIZARD

[cckids]

Refusal would be different from a tantrum, unless--the refusal is accompanied by withdrawl. Most clinicians consider refusal, in most situations to be more of a defiance or limit testing sort of behavior. In other situations, it is attention seeking. At times, refusal- well to rephrase- refusal followed by compliance- can be a significant sign of transition problems. We've worked on this using visual schedules and insignificant transition objects.

Tantrums are characterized by being out of control, but many kids do throw controlled tantrums to seek out attention or again push limits.

[tgrimes]

Well OK, so that's four people so far that say they are different... guess I'll have to go with that. I am doing a reinforcement schedule with my son right now and sometimes it seems a little unnatural, like maybe this isn't really defiance, maybe this is a compulsion for him to refuse everything before finally complying.
My son doesn't have rages or get physical anymore, but when he did it was usually preceeded by refusing to do something. Now the refusal is still a major concern, on occasion it is followed by a small tantrum, a negative rant, fixating, or in extreme cases self-injurious behavior.
The testing limits thing seems to be really close to what I mean, it is like what a toddler does, right? I just don't understant the clinical aspect of this:
You test the limit, you get the answer, you shouldn't have to test the same limits over and over for months or years. Is that maybe a compulsion, to test the same limits again and again?

What about refusal and running?

[Mother's Heart]

maybe it's just communication. Maybe he is communicating that you are insisting he do something he doesn't want to do. and when you refused to acquiesce to his refusal in the past he tried the next level, ie: rage/tantrum?

[tgrimes]

Yeah, that's basically it. He needs a lot of control - and like Peglem said earlier it is helpful to point out what he IS in control of, to ease things.
I guess regardless of what is the cause, reinforcement to cooperate is what I need to continue to use.
So I guess I'm on the right track I just need patience!

[cckids]

Testing limits is started as a toddler and I think that is when it is most obvious because it is a new behavior.
The defiant response many psychologists like to catagorize into ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). I hate seeing this diagnosis placed on ASD kids. Our five year old responds to almost every request with "NO." He'll wander aroudn while my hubbies cooking, complaining he's hungry. ONce the tables set---"Zach it's time for dinner." 70% of the time he throws himself on the floor screaming no, im not hungry, i don't like that, etc. About 1 minute later he stands up, comes to the table and chows down. "Mmm mmm that was so good." The other times he's waiting at the table for his food and gets upset just verbally when you put the food on his plate. I don't know why or what to call it, but he doesn't do it out of defiance. I think it is more communication related or the transition issues. He is resistive and defiant at the initiation of most things, but then he goes along with it.
Kids continue to test limits all there lives (so do adults). Frequently with our teens at work, the first 2 hours of the shift is irritating because they are pushing the limits to see if the staff person is going to be leniant or strict. Once consistent redirection is observed then they typically follow the rules and direction they are given.
I don't know if that helps--I feel like im starting to babble

[cckids]

Originally Posted by tgrimes

Is that maybe a compulsion, to test the same limits again and again?

What about refusal and running?

Compulsion--I would tend to say no. Probably more of an impulse issue. Impulsiveness and poor communication seem to go hand in hand.

Refusal and running---I assume you mean that you are then in the position that you are chasing. Luckily, this seems to have cooled down in our house- but when he was 3-4 it was frequent. Finally the therapist that we worked with, helped us make a behavior plan. If Zach does ____ behavior then ____ will be the consequence. Print it out keep on the counter, so hubby and I could be consistent with each other and each behavior.

If he runs, defiantly---he was given one verbal warning- you need to come back here while I count to five or I am going to physically take you to time out. If he was running because he was supposed to go to time-out then the choice was coming back to time out or he was going to get held (on the ground, floor, or basket held if in public etc). If he didn't respond in that 5 seconds and begin his return, then the chase was on (yes i'm a normal out of shape mom, but i've always been able to catch him (pride goes out the window). When caught- holding him out flat, face down for 3-5 minutes or until he was calm and responsive. The only words exchanged would be regarding "I'm holding you on the ground because you ran away from me." After being held and was calm, then he'd have to take his time-out and apologize,etc.
If he returned then he gets the choice to give himself a time out or do whatever he was given directions to do earlier. and apologize for running.

This came to a head after he ran from the bus driver during a fire drill (March '06) , climbing two fences (ripping his shirt off) and crossing a field. What can the bus driver do---there's 12 other kids on the curb that she needed to put back on the bus before persuing him. His IEP now requires a 24 hour notice of fire drill so he can have alternative transportation planned.

Oh and I haven't had to chase him since August.

Our son also "runs-away" when he does something naughty, even if no one knows yet. (ex. dropped an egg in the kitchen, wrote on a wall, broke a siblings toy, etc.) Often if I cannot find him, I'll walk around shouting that what ever you did, I can forgive you, but you need to come out or I will call the police. If I can't find him within 30 minutes then I'll call. We're debating on getting a tether type device on him because he won't tell anyone where he goes or hides. He's done this at school also which is problematic.