Can you explain?

[peglem]

When Allie brings me something to open for her, (she has fine motor problems, needs help to open things) I usually hold out my left hand because I use the right to manipulate the opening part- I'm right handed. She almost always pushes my left hand away and places the item in my right hand instead. She doesn't object when I move it back to my left hand to open it, but insists on placing it in my right hand 1st. So, what's up with that?

[tgrimes]

That's funny. Maybe the 'ring' hand or something... do you wear a ring on your left hand?

[peglem]

Funny (now, not then) story about my wedding ring. When I was preggo with Allie, my hands swelled so I couldn't wear my ring. I put it in my jewelry box (with a bunch of junk jewelry) and my then 6 year old daughter took it to school- I got the engagement ring back, but the wedding band is gone forever- she gave it to a friend who said she lost it. My daughter swears that one day she will buy me a new set!

Short answer- no rings or bracelets on either hand. Odd, huh?

[milivica]

I used to do stuff like that, Vince too. Your left hand is in the way of the opener (your right hand). She is putting it in the hand that opens it. As though you and 'the hand' aren't connected, know what I mean? Almost like you put a jar that needs to be opened on that part of your can opener that opens jars. You may have to turn the can opener to the back side to access the opener, she is moving something (your left hand) out of the way to access the opener. See how it makes sense? Let me know.

Like your body parts are tools, means to get things accomplished, it's not YOU opening the jar, it's 'the hand', or 'the right hand'.

Vince also use to kind of take my hand and almost throw it toward something he could not reach...I was his grabber, or rather my hand was the grabber, the means to get something he could not reach. Would have not mattered if it was me - or if he could generalize any hand, hands went up and got the desired item (hands, not people, see?)

Now, NEXT TIME, see if it is possible for her to keep one or both of her hands on the jar, while you open it. Eventually, she can hold the jar, while you open. You don't want to 'graduate' to her opening for herself, she can already do things alone (emotionally). She needs no practice in emotional independence.

Do you see how that is a good idea? That way, for her, she will experience the feeling of 'WE' open the jar. You will know if you are doing it correctly, if she is not stressed, and eventually enjoying the activity so much she won't stop bringing jars for both of you to open TOGETHER, so she can feel that feeling of 'WE'. See? Long before all your pickles dry out though, I'll give you more ideas.

Ok, off to bed...got a certain little lady to pray for with RDI on her ISP!!!

[milivica]

Favor, before you do the jar idea, let's go over it.

If you are 'instructional' it won't work, hey let's frame it together first, make sure you know exactly what will happen, what to expect, what to be prepared for, before you do this. Becaaaaaause, you can use this as a catapult for complimentary roles in EVERYTHING around the house, out of the house, oh man it's real cool. I know it sounds so simple, open a jar together, but like there are way more ways to do it 'wrong' than 'right' when you are trying to guide her to gaining function. And of course, this has nothing what so ever to do with her learning how to open a jar (skill).

[Keggy]

My guess is that she has a right hand dominance and she is expecting you to use that to open the item. When she sees you shift it to your left and she shifts it back, she is trying to get you to open the way she would. Then she sees you do this complicated right/left thing and she knows thats what she needs to do.. (eh?)
Or explanation number two....... possibly at one time she went to do something and sombody told her or made her use her right hand. her right hand is the "right hand" and she needs to use the "right hand" to do things, and so do you.
Our kids are so concrete the second would be my best guess.

[Mother's Heart]

I have to say I'm with Mili on this one.

Originally Posted by mili

I used to do stuff like that, Vince too. Your left hand is in the way of the opener (your right hand). She is putting it in the hand that opens it. As though you and 'the hand' aren't connected, know what I mean? Almost like you put a jar that needs to be opened on that part of your can opener that opens jars. You may have to turn the can opener to the back side to access the opener, she is moving something (your left hand) out of the way to access the opener. See how it makes sense? Let me know.

Like your body parts are tools, means to get things accomplished, it's not YOU opening the jar, it's 'the hand', or 'the right hand'.

This is exactly what I've seen for years with my son. He does this, placing whatever he needs in the hand that he's accustomed to my using for that task. He's very specific and will move whatever I have in that hand out of it to make it available. So if i'm here typing he will move my hands off of the keyboard before placing the thing he needs in my hand, or if I have a tool in my left hand and he needs that hand he will remove the tool first, often placing it in my right hand, then use my left for what he wants. Sometimes it is to give me something to open, sometimes to take my hand to lead me somewhere, it used to be to 'throw' my hand at what he wants (just like VINCE!) sometimes to place my hand on what he wants to do through me.
He will reach all the way across my body to reach my left hand because that is the one used to be led to something. It's clear he sees my hand as a tool, and picks the 'right' tool to get the specific job done.

Like everything else there has been a progression in his learning this. At first, when he figured out he could get me to come do something he would come stand near me...maybe in front of the door of the room I was in and just wait. Or he would go stand in front of the light switch he wanted flipped on. stuff like that. Then, for a time he would come shove me off the chair to make me get up and come do something for him. I taught him to take my hand. Then he would pull me off the chair. I taught him to touch my wrist. whew! that is so nice I'm STILL thanking him each time he does it. He has come to me to have me help him with his vcr/dvd and put my t.v. remote in my hand to let me know that's what he wants. THAT was a huge leap I was thrilled for him to make.

anyway...yes, I"ve always been a tool....or part of me has been and the rest of me plainly just didn't count. That is gradually changing.

[peglem]

Originally Posted by milivica

Favor, before you do the jar idea, let's go over it.

If you are 'instructional' it won't work, hey let's frame it together first, make sure you know exactly what will happen, what to expect, what to be prepared for, before you do this. Becaaaaaause, you can use this as a catapult for complimentary roles in EVERYTHING around the house, out of the house, oh man it's real cool. I know it sounds so simple, open a jar together, but like there are way more ways to do it 'wrong' than 'right' when you are trying to guide her to gaining function. And of course, this has nothing what so ever to do with her learning how to open a jar (skill).

Okay, I'm ready- frame it! Is this something that will work if she's still a stage 1 kid? Not referencing yet. How do we do it so she doesn't get upset that I'm not functioning as the reliably efficient tool. She just wants the dern food open, y'know?

[milivica]

I'm having trouble figuring out how to word this all, can I call you? If so, pick a time that works for you tonight or tomorrow....I just want to make sure you have a clear idea of function over instruction or going through the motions. For some reason, I don't even know what to ask or how to begin a typed conversation of Q&A to make sure of this.

I don't know if this would be stage 1, or what stage it would be, I see an opportunity for growth, know what to do, know what I'd once I was there cause I'd evaluate on a moment to moment basis how what I did or guided would make her feel and think (in this one area, I don't mean her whole being). I am unsure she'll just take to this instantly if there's some foundation that isn't present - and I don't know the verbiage to describe that better. Um, I suppose the verbiage would be, that if you picture trying to have complimentary roles with a baby, can you see how that would be a step ahead of what the baby can do? That there is a 'foundation' not there? Though, at a few months old, I can totally imagine like a pre-patty cake (that might be coregulatory, not complimentary - still learning the verbiage but I KNOW the 'feel' or 'feeling' I'm aiming for Allie to experience). Also, if she does take to it right away, that means the foundation IS there. So, I'd love to be wrong about that. Awfully hard to tell online! I'm cautious about this kind of thing, never want to guess with a child.

If the foundation is there and she takes off, great. If not, I can give you ideas how to guide her, but not have her memorize an empty skill or follow instruction, she can already do that anyhow. PM me please! Let me know. I would be surprised if YOU didn't come up with 10 ideas to every 1 I think of, once I give you the gist of the function or feeling inside Allie that I'm going for. Pretty much, that feeling of 'WE', the opposite of a parallel feeling.

[milivica]

Originally Posted by peglem

How do we do it so she doesn't get upset that I'm not functioning as the reliably efficient tool. She just wants the dern food open, y'know?

I forgot to respond to this....see how smart you are. Great point, and anything that I suggest that makes her upset that your right hand is taking too long cause YOU are trying to get involved, then I'm giving you crappy advice. RDI doesn't always have to be 'fun' but it must cause less anxiety, never more. And she does just want the dern food open - we're going to try and turn that into an emotion sharing experience. Generalize that into a zillion other things, so she feels like a 'we' with you, with others.

What really helps me, is trying things with my nt kid first, so I can get my head out of 'Vince world' before doing rDI with him.

Have your nt kid or even dh (still a kid, same difference, hee hee) hand you a jar exactly as Allie would...can you use declaratives to tell her to hold the jar with you such as, "Wow this is hard" or "Wow this is hard, will you help me" or "sure wish someone would help me twist" or "wish someone would hold the jar". What can you say or do, just to get her to touch the jar with you? Can she tolerate you placing her hand on it while you twist, or her putting her hand on yours while you twist? That will not = her feeling a part of the process immediately, it's just a start. She will in time initiate contributing to the jar getting opened. Other things you can do that are similar....you sweep she holds the dust pan. You each hold the end of a towel and come together and fold it together...not standing next to each other folding your own towels, that is parallel. See the 'feel' I'm going for? Using the towel example, you can add referencing to that activity, by her waiting until you nod 'yes' to join your ends together while folding. None of this of course, has to do with her learning to fold, doesn't matter how neat or sloppy the towel gets folded at all.

Also, I think I'm mixing up what is defined as complimentary rolls, and coregulation. I just want to be honest - the 'feel' I want I totally get. The verbiage, not always so much, but getting there. But I can tell you lots of fun things to do, while you wait for your consultant , that will not be a waste of time, or focus on empty skills.

OH remind me when we talk (if it's ok with you that we talk) to tell you about the 14 year old that just started RDI, she is very much like Allie sounds, I did a complimentary role with her, she LOVED it, couldn't get enough, it was so nice. I could FEEL her being close to me heart to heart, omg it was so amazing, cause I know we were sharing that feeling of 'WE' at the same time, and we both knew it simultaneously, it was so cool.