Has Anyone Tried/Thought of...

[mforce00]

Has anyone here tried or thought of combining an opiate that they take with dextromethorphan? All the research I found states that it reverses opiate tolerance, so I was thinking of taking a 1:1 ratio of DXM and hydrocodone. It seems this should give never ending pain relief (I mean never ending by the lack of pain relief from tolerance). The research is out there, and I don't understand why it isn't put in practice currently. DXM in a 1:1 ratio with any opiate would have limited sides I think. Also, how does the body adapt to DXM... increasing NMDA receptors? So if the body raised these then opiates wouldn't be as effective, but all the research shows that DXM REVERSES opiate tolerance. Am I missing something here or is this the greatest idea ever?

[tenacious]

it sounds like the greatest idea ever, but i have't read the research on it. where did you get the research info?:D

[mforce00]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=7708410&dopt=Abstract
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8951930&dopt=Citation
http://www.springerlink.com/index/G5BR4Y1WAW954W5F.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10687332&dopt=Abstract
There are lots of studies on NMDA receptor antagonists and opioids all sharing the same idea that NMDA receptor antagonists prevent and reverse opioid tolerance.

[BrokenBladder]

mforce00 this sounds interesting but it dosen't look like it's been tried on people. I read the articles, but they're a bit over my head. Where would you get DXM? If what the articles say are true then yes it would be a wonderful thing. It does make me wonder though, why don't the doctors ever say anything about it or for that matter prescribe it?

[Pharmacist.steve]

DXM is on the the DEA's list of drugs of concerned

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/index.html

DXM is generally thought to potentiate opiates. IF this done without your doc knowledge and it is found out .. I think there is a chance you will find yourself "kicked to the curb"

[mforce00]

DXM is being made into a painkiller... ty for lobelsteve for this info... it is known as Zenvia (neurodex) and is in clinical trials for neuropathic pain from what I can tell. DXM is on the concerned list yes, but it's also OTC and still totally legal. I highly doubt any doctor with a brain in his head would "kick you to the curb" if you presented him research. DXM is robotussin and is also in mucinex, and most cough suppressants that are OTC. The 1:1 ratio falls under legal limits for cough suppression too... since about 30mg DXM is used for daily cough suppression.

I think NMDA antagonism should be the wave of the future... Opiates didn't even evolve to be painkillers from articles that I read. They are just kind of used for it as a quick fix, and only a quick fix. Opiates for pain is kind of like ephedrine for nasal congestion... it works, but my god what a stupid choice.

[Mark N]

It sounds interesting but my body seems to react that way by itself as I can stay on the same dosage once I get it set right. Thanks for bringing it up and giving the links to it. Steve is right about not doing it without your doctor's [the one dxs your opiate] approval though.

[BrokenBladder]

DXM is on the the DEA's list of drugs of concerned

http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/index.html

DXM is generally thought to potentiate opiates. IF this done without your doc knowledge and it is found out .. I think there is a chance you will find yourself "kicked to the curb"

So in other words DXM makes the opiate work better? I guess I'm a bit naive about some of this stuff, but would it not be better to have your opiate work longer so you could take less of it?
Why in the world would the DEA care about that?
I know that I can never take anything OTC without speaking to my doctor first, but it sounds like they would look at me as though I was doing something wrong by asking. Help I'm really confused in Florida!!!!

[Kathi49]

Lisa,

This is over my head as well. But potentiates means "increases". So, what I believe Steve is saying is that it can increase or enhance or add to what an opiate already does. So, I agree with what Mark said, I wouldn't take anything without a doctor's approval or knowledge first.

[mforce00]

You can take less opiate with the DXM. I guess ideally you could work from Morphine/Oxycodone down to Hydrocodone and just take hydrocodone with dxm. People who get ketamine infusions either have no more pain, or they come out and can reduce their pain medication to lower doses. DXM should increase both the potency and duration of analgesia. Opiates and DXM are metabolized by the same liver enzyme, CYP2D6 which is why the duration of being painfree lasts longer. I never said you shouldn't tell your doctor you are doing this, because I feel you should. The DEA cares about DXM because if you take more than 200mg at one time you get high. 15-30mg throughout a day has limited side effects, but 200mg or more at once can cause the effects similar to ecstasy.

[BrokenBladder]

Steve I just got the chance to read your link and all I can say is wow!! What a list it is!! The names that are used on the street are amazing. I feel like such an idiot for not having even a 1/4 of this knowledge but I guess on the other hand that's a good thing.
Kathi thanks for the info on how DMX works. I don't even take cold medicine without the doctors approval, but how crazy is it that there is something made to enhance what we already take? I guess I need to become more up to date on the street drugs.

[Kathi49]

Well, all I can really say is that I hate, hate, hate that "high" feeling on some of the meds I was given in the past. I am soooooo overly sensitive to most which is another reason I am frightened to try Lyrica again. Now, Hydrocodone has never made me feel high. I just get sleepy but I also keep it at low doses; one or maybe two a day of Norco 5/325. And .5 of Klonopin for the Neuropathy, anxiety and muscle spasms. I don't know, but I would be afraid to try the DXM in conjunction with Norco. But what do I know? LOL Like I said, I just HATE that spaced out, weird feeling; sort of like I felt on Neurontin. Maybe I am missing something here but even if you could lessen your opiate usage, WHY would you want to thow something at it that also has the potential for abuse or addiction? I feel as Mark does, if the opiate dosage is adjusted accordingly, then one should be okay with it. If, on the other hand, you are trying to taper off of an opiate, then maybe DXM is alright. But then again, I still don't get it. :)

[Mark N]

Mforce, we were only concerned about you and not saying you were against telling your doctor. You are right about how it can reduce the dosage of opiates you need but it seems like to me that it would take a lot of experimentation before you could get the proper setting. If you try it be sure to let us know how it is working and what you have to go through to get the dosage set right.

[BrokenBladder]

Kathi I agree I don't like the "high" feeling or "spaced" out feeling. I have to say though over the years the hydrocodone has had to be increased to keep up the same affect of pain relief.
With that being said it does make me wonder if I could actually cut down on my intake of hydrocodone if DMX was in the mix. It would also help with the tylenol issue and my liver. I think I will at least ask my RA about it when I see her next week.
So many of these things I would never know about if it weren't for this board. It's great to have a place where the knowledge is so diverse. Thanks for being here guys and gals!!

[mforce00]

I wonder why lobelsteve hasn't replied yet :(
1:1 ratio seems optimal from studies I read so testing really isn't needed. My only real concern is how does the body adapt to an NMDA receptor antagonist? My mind says it should upregulate NMDA receptors, but then why does the opiate tolerance reverse and stay reversed? This assumes that the receptors do not upregulate in response to antagonism... and I know they do because of alcoholics.

[Mark N]

You may need to start a new post about this aspect of the drug and put something in there to Steve. He may not be responding as it got pushed to the end of the post??? I don't know if this would work or not but worth the try because I am interested in that answer.