I'm gonna kill him...

[milivica]

Ok, so dh comes in after Carmen's maiden electric bike ride, and over and over and over dh is asking Vince very slowly and clearly, if he put the hose in the shed and turned it on. I'm making burgers to put on the grill, and I hear dh talking more slowly, clearly, and loudly, "Did youuuuu put waaaaaaterrrrrrr in the sheeeeeeeed or not?" and he's using hand signals and pointing, it looks like charades...I can hear in his tone he's hoping and praying there's some alternate answer than the obvious.

Suddenly, I realize that earlier today, Vince said something about making a tsunami or levee breech or some darn and something about the shed after he asked me to use the hose to water my flowers. I feel so 'used' and hurt, GOD he KNOWS what I want to hear, and plays me - not cause I'm so aspie, but cause I want to see only the good and pretend he's the leave it to beaver kid. That he'd actually want to do something for me, like water my flowers, just to do something for me.

So back to him telling me about the hose and shed....I'm so accustomed to hearing and discovering exasperating enraging crap he does, that I'm nearly numb to it. I know boys get into things, but WTF. I think when he told me he filled up the shed, it literally ricochetted off my brain, and did not absorb. I think it's either saturation, or denial or both. I don't even remember what he said, I just remember saying, "Never put water in the shed again" cause honest to God, if I had to punish him for every dumb arse butt backwards thing he did, he'd be in trouble from the moment he got up to the moment he went to sleep. I'd actually have to limit his sleep to 15 minutes a night to make sure he was able to serve all his punishment time. And I love him, and I don't want him sad or to make him feel like a failure, but wtf, wtf, wtf.

WHAT in the holy he!! would possess a person, of any age, size, gender, neurology, ethicity, culture, religion, to fill up a shed, a shed with your parents stuff in it. Like what in the he!! would even make you think, "hey let me flood the shed". And I refuse to even ask why he did it, cause I'll get on a step stool or chair and whoop him tonight, oh yes I will, cause he'll say what he always does, "I just wanted to have fun" and then I'll snap. I was so angry, I told him I wanted a fire to roast the marshmallows I got us tonight, so I'm going to use the Garfield books he bought - no big deal right, I just want to 'have fun'. You know, since I don't have wood. And he had the nerve to look hurt!!!!

And yes, I know that he is playing me in terms of neurological development is 'good', but lets not even eeeeeven go there right now. Okay?

Anyhow, it would seem of you shut the doors, brace them, wedge a garden hose in the top of the door you jimmy open the turn it on full blast, you can apparently flood it. Also, the lawn mower in the shed is apparently not supposed to be submerged. Also, when you open the doors, it flows toward the house, and eventually floods the downstairs corner of the baswement, yeah, the one I just finished.

I just stood there in the kitchen, with raw burger in my hands, staring at dh as he stared at me, and I was like, "OMG Mike, did you ever ever ever, in your entire f-ing life, think you'd be asking your child or any person on the face of this earth, if they filled up your shed???"

I mean, dh did some really looney crap as a young boy, he was in trouble all the time as was his brothers...and he is from a family of 10 kids so you better believe they did some crazy stuff. But Vince really takes the cake. I mean, and it's something every single day more than once a day. And it's always always stuff that is a disaster cause he 'just wants to have fun', then, he covers his tracks by telling me a portion of what he did when I'm too busy to listen - like he'll literally wait until I'm lugging out old carpeting or replacing a faucet or something that is really preoccupying my mind.

Swear to God, that kid better pray that lawn mower starts tomorrow. I mean do I have no sense of humor? Is there something funny about opening the doors to your shed and having a flash flood? WTF WTF WTF is he thinking. Gawd. This is not autism, this is a kid that I ruined cause I let him run around and have at it like he owns this house. Like he doesn't even know to ask if he can do something with OUR stuff. Ugh!

I am so pissed, it's ridiculous. "Excuse me sir, but did you shove a hose in my shed and fill it up?" Like when the frick would anyone ever have occasion to ask this.

[peglem]

Well, I'm just speechless. Maybe his allowance should go to buy a new lawnmower or the cost of repairing damage before his critters get that new dollhouse? Or have a "sell Vince's stuff" yard sale to raise money to replace your wrecked stuff. I don't think punishing him, or killing him is going to solve anything. Your sense of humor is just temporarily gone...it'll come back.

[peglem]

What does your RDI consultant say to do in these situations?

[milivica]

"don't kill 'em"

Seriously, I dunno what she'll say. But every time I tell her stuff like this, she can break it down so I can understand his perspective. I don't want to understand his perspective at the moment, I just want to complain! Not productive, but for now, all I want to do about it.

Though I have to say, I'm 75% over it just by posting. Plus I just talked to another mom and she has so much more overwhelming stuff going on than me, a flooded shed seems like not such a big deal. I suppose as long as I don't wake every morning to hearing, "put on your burka, shut up and cook my breakfast" it's all good.

I know he just thought it would be a really neat thing to see the water pour out of the shed, it's the only 'structure' that can hold and quickly release water. Lord knows what even made him put it all together, if I were an inventor and he was my son I'd probably be more psyched. It wasn't even the incident so much, just the unending incidents back, to back, to back, to back, over the course of 13 years. It's like Christ sakes son, can't you ever just have a mellow uneventful day? What I wouldn't give for a day of boredom!!!! See, I'm not an adrenalin high octane kind of gal, he is that kind of person....it's his adhd thru and thru that just drives the constant 'action' he needs, and drive me nuts. I could watch paint dry and be reasonably entertained. I like calm.

Can't hardly wait for the brain mapping study...bet he has the lowest blood flow ever seen in what ever part of the brain causes adhd, other than maybe Stevo from Jacka$$. Except Vince isn't on any recreational drugs. So the need for action is all him.

[roadracer]

I know it probably wont make you feel better, but I did plenty of stuff like that as a kid, and I know most boys did stuff like that as kids. It is just the reasoning that kids have. I am sure he knew better then to do that, but he was probably going over it in his mind, thinking something like that it is only water and is not going to hurt anything or something flawed like that. I am sure he had some reasoning going on that told him to go against better judgment and try the 'experiment'.
I know your mad, but punishment probably wont do much. What I would have done was I would have made him take everything out of the shed, clean and dry it all off, clean the shed, make sure everything was dry, so that he could see that filling the shed with water really was that bad of a idea. Like pegs said, making him spend his allowence on the stuff he ruined would probably also teach him.
Burning his book, or spanking him, or any form of 'payback' is not going to teach him anything. My parents did that when I was a kid, when I did something wrong they just beat me, threw stuff away, and stuff like that, and I always kept making the same mistakes, because I never totally knew were I was going wrong. I learned that what I was doing was wrong, just like Vince now know what he did was very wrong, but I never was exactly sure why it was wrong, and how to apply that to other things.

And believe me, I did some very bad things when I was a kid. If you think Vinces reasoning is bad, I remember once, because I only had one power outlet in my room, and I could only plug two things into it, I wanted more outlets. So what did I do, I decided I was going to put in another outlet myself :eek: so I got out the jigsaw... to make a long story short, my parents had to replace the drywall and wiring on that whole wall. I think that is when I learned that electricity IS really dangerous. I cant remember how old I was, probably around 10, but I remember telling myself that this is probably not a good idea, but what could posibly go wrong?

[milivica]

OMG, your installing an electric outlet story is just the type of stuff that Vince does, only usually more of an action packed thing. Nothing nearly as quiet as potentially electrocuting himself and burning the house down.

I did tons of really strange things too as a kid, with what I thought was good reason at the time. But not every day, a couple of times a day. Also I was with either of my parents so rarely, I sort of spread out my antics to many people in many households.

Partly I was so angry cause I don't feel I can punish him, cause deep down I know he did what he did impulsively, and without disrespect toward our stuff or toward us as his parents. Having him (while supervised to avoid more catastrophe) remove everything from the shed, dry it, and put it back would have been a GREAT consequence, that would be something I would do had I thought of it. And I act real matter of fact, like 'well, when you get everything wet then you have to dry it' which is way more effective (I think) in helping him to gain foreshadowing than anger.

Don't worry about him getting smacked, I say that when I'm mad here, but I never felt proud of myself (when I could catch him) and hit him. I know what a monster I feel like later if I hit my kids, like I failed being the parent I want to be.

Sometimes having him for a son is like some twisted version of Ghepetto (Pinnochio's dad) with those elves that fixed shoes all night, only in our case, Vince acts like a bunch of adhd destructo elves UNdoing what I do. Aka, his nickname since before he was 2, the Vincenator. I know it's just par for the course, but sometimes it's like all the stuff he did over the past few months has piled up in me emotionally, and the shed was the straw that broke the camels back.

Peg, I haven't talked to our consultant yet, but I'm already guessing this is going to fall under a 'lack of foreshadowing' type of thing. If he really could have foreshadowed that putting water into it was going to get all the stuff in it wet (believe it or not, I doubt he thought past the flood gushing out the doors when he opened it, know what I mean) I know he'd have never done it. I was just fed up at the time I posted, but glad I did cause it felt good to vent!

I'm going to take Carmen's battery for her new bike off the charger, so she can ride and 'glide' tomorrow. I dunno how I'll keep up with her! Today even without the battery, instead of her being perpetually behind me riding the bike she had (my old bike from a good 15 years ago) I couldn't keep up with her and she had to wait for me...which only made the fun better. What is it about our kids surpassing us, that feels so good.

Speaking of surpassing, Vince did say one really cool thing today. For some time this mom and I have played phone tag, Vince and her child want a play date. They went to camp together this summer. Finally we got in touch, and the mom suggested either bowling or this gymnastic place where kids can let loose. I prefer the bowling, less chance for things to go wrong in my mind. So I tell Vince when I get off the phone 'So how about bowling' and talk about my preference. Then he says, "Well, why don't we ask my friend what she wants to do?" and I was floored, that is so the thing that is going to help him make and keep friends. He, for the first time I can recall, was genuinely interested in what the other person wanted, didn't care what the activity was, just that he was going to do it with his friend. And here I didn't even think to ask what anyone preferred! So that was really thrilling, until the shed thing. So I think I'll talk to the mom, and we'll try to let the kids figure out what they want to do - which would be a first for both of them.

[peglem]

Y'know, I've been thinking about this and pretty much figured out that Vince didn't think ahead to the consequences. I'll bet it was pretty cool watching the water pour out, though!

I guess I was wondering what the consultant says to do about this kind of thing, more than why he did it.

So cool about asking what his friend wants to do. Does Vince talk on the phone?

One day you'll back on this shed event fondly, shake your head and smile, with that "what a kid" feeling.

Hope Carmen has a great time on her bike tomorrow. I can sure remember that feeling of freedom, whizzing along on a bike!

[milivica]

Yeah, I know he didn't see the consequences. I agree with you.

If he really could have foreshadowed that putting water into it was going to get all the stuff in it wet (believe it or not, I doubt he thought past the flood gushing out the doors when he opened it, know what I mean) I know he'd have never done it.

I'll call her Monday to see what she says but I think you and I are right about him not thinking ahead to the consequences.

Carmen was up so late last night excited about today, that she just woke up so hasn't taken her first 'motorized' trip yet. Soon though. It'll be great!

[roadracer]

Mili, I was thinking about this, and I am thinking that even that Vince might do some bad things without thinking about it, maybe you can be thankful that he is not going out and getting in trouble with the law all the time, or getting into fights everyday. I am just thinking about all the trouble a autistic can get into without even trying.
When I was a kid, I didnt spend much time at home, my parents would throw me out the door if they had to, so I spent most of my time on my own or with my cousin. I would follow along with groups of kids who I thought were my friends, and at the time I didnt have any clue that I was not friends with them. One day I might have been hanging out with a gang, the next day I might have been at a underage party, and I had absolutly no clue what I was doing till the police showed up, or I was running from them. I believed ANYTHING anyone would tell me, and kids took advantage of this, one time a group of kids who I thoght were my friends, I was with them and they told me all about this car they were taking to the junk yard, but first were going to have fun and bust the windows out of it, they would let me go first. Being autistic and like I was, I never questioned them, and thought it was the truth, so I picked up a big rock and busted out the windshield of this car. When the police picked me up I still didnt have a clue what I did.
When they told me to do stuff like go and get there friends bicycle from there yard, that we would be taking it to him across town, well I never knew what was really going on. When other kids decided to give payback, like the time I was thrown off the side of a overpass, or when kids were mad at me and help knife to my throat, I never really fully understood why.

So, I am not complaining or want any pity or anything, I am just saying that you seem to be a very good mother, and that you are doing a good job with Vince, and it seems you are doing the best you can do, and I am sure you wont be able to stop all these things from happening, he will continue to do stupid boy things, and someday you will laugh about the time he tryed to make a aquarium out of the shed.

[Isabelle]

i know you are very angry and i shouldn't smile or laugh....but that's nothing...honestly! he is going to come up with much brighter ideas.....i guarantee you that.... are you prepared? ..... develop a sixth sense and a sense of humour bullet-proof....you are going to need it !!!

[milivica]

Holy cow Isabelle, I'm sure glad you didn't post that when I was still upset!!! I know it's not the worst thing a kid can do, but when a mom is upset it's just nice to vent.

We still haven't tried the lawn mower, we don't want to get upset all over again if it doesn't start.

[roadracer]

your lawn mower is fine :) every mower I have ever used (every type you can probably think of) I have washed it off after I was done, with a hose and plenty of water. You should actually wash it off after every time you use it, as if grass gets to built up under the deck, or over the motor, you could ruin the thing, sooo, just think of it as he did a favor and cleaned the mower for you :D

[Isabelle]

ohhhh!!! you're really scaring mili :eek:.... i am glad i posted when i did :p

but, you see mili, RR has the right "positive" attitude, vince did you a great favor!!! :D

[Aspigander]

Mili, I must thank you for the laugh!!!! You know, I'm sure you're not too fun to be around when you're angry, but you sure post some really hilarious stuff online when you are!!!!

But let's look at all the multiple positives of the situation here...

1. Like RR said, your mower is now clean.
2. I know you didn't want to eeeeeven go there, but I'm going there anyway...the neurological development, the 'playing' you about the flower watering when he really wanted the hose for his little stunt, is a good thing, as well as this:
then, he covers his tracks by telling me a portion of what he did when I'm too busy to listen - like he'll literally wait until I'm lugging out old carpeting or replacing a faucet or something that is really preoccupying my mind.
Ah, so he knows how to tell when he can 'confess' to his shenanigans when you're doing something and can't give him your full attention so he won't get a lot of heat for it. Great! He's paying attention to you, knowing what you're doing! Nice going Vince!! Not to mention, there is some interconnectivity in that brain of his! WOO-HOO!!!!
3. Also like RR said, he's not getting in trouble with the law or anything.
4. You didn't have a boring day. He's always keeping you on your toes.
5. While if he was playing you with the watering flowers ruse, I wonder if it wasn't a ruse at all...I wonder if he asked for the hose fully intending to water your flowers for you? I can kind of see that happening, intending to do something nice, then he has the hose in hand, looks at the shed, looks down at the hose he's holding, and gets his bright idea. If it was in fact good intentions that went awry, well, that would be positive.
6. At least he filled the shed with water and not fire.
7. He is learning, little by little, what not to do.
8. You provided us with a hilarious read!!!!

Okay, I'd better stop before I find rotten veggies flying my way. LOL

[Aspigander]

And believe me, I did some very bad things when I was a kid. If you think Vinces reasoning is bad, I remember once, because I only had one power outlet in my room, and I could only plug two things into it, I wanted more outlets. So what did I do, I decided I was going to put in another outlet myself :eek: so I got out the jigsaw... to make a long story short, my parents had to replace the drywall and wiring on that whole wall. I think that is when I learned that electricity IS really dangerous. I cant remember how old I was, probably around 10, but I remember telling myself that this is probably not a good idea, but what could posibly go wrong?

OH GOOD LORD!!!! :eek: I think I'm going to remember this next time you tell me to do something like take the side off of my computer! LOL :D

Um, didn't you say once that your parents had you remodel your bedroom at one point? Were they not a tad bit concerned that something might go awry? :eek:

[peglem]

As long as we're counting Mili's blessings for her...
It has occurred to me that its a good thing Vince isn't fascinated with fire.

[roadracer]

OH GOOD LORD!!!! :eek: I think I'm going to remember this next time you tell me to do something like take the side off of my computer! LOL :D

Um, didn't you say once that your parents had you remodel your bedroom at one point? Were they not a tad bit concerned that something might go awry? :eek:

well, I was a kid then, I didnt know any better.
So lets see, since then I have learned how to read, have read a few dozen books on computers, have built around a dozen or so computers...
I THINK, just think, I might have learned a few things since then :p
I remodeld my bedroom at this house when we moved in. I was much older and knew what I was doing by then :p I take pride in my work and what I have done. In many former jobs I have worked as a welder, sheet metal, and steel worker, mason, over head crane operator, one job I ran a front end loader and dump truck! :eek: I still have all my fingers and body parts :D (one reason why I dont want SSI, I CAN work, it is just finding someone that will hire me is the problem)

[milivica]

As long as we're counting Mili's blessings for her...
It has occurred to me that its a good thing Vince isn't fascinated with fire.

Oh he is! But who isn't? Which is why we dumped the propane grill years and years ago. Fire is just tooooo interesting. I could understand that fascination. Carmen still has a scar on her face where she let Vince touch a hot lighter on it. I walked in the room and she was just sitting there while her cheek blistered under the hot metal. You know, older brothers just always have these 'great' ideas right?

So yeah all the matches are well hid around here, he can't resist when he knows where they are. But hey that's understandable. It's impossible not to poke and fiddle with a campfire isn't it?

When we'd visited his grandparents in Arizona, I went shopping for us only to come home and find he'd talked my ma into letting him light all the candles she had, they were gathered all on her kitchen island. Little snot, he knew I'd never let him do that but he sure pulled the grandma card when I left.

I remember one time when I was about 10, same age age RR's short lived career as an electrician lol, I accidentally made too big of a fire doing the usual setting of twigs on fire while sneaking my ma's cigarettes in this patch of weeping willows by our apartment. I loved to set tiny twigs and leaves on fire in a wee pile the size of an orange (so really small). But one day was different, drier. Well after all the firetrucks left, I never did that again. I never liked out of control fires, Vince neither, just how it looks when it's burning in a controlled setting. Also tossing stuff in to burn, but who doesn't like that.

Just posting all this makes me want to pull out the metal fire pit thingy and make a fire.

Maybe when you live in Phoenix fire loses it's appeal, as does anything hot since there's so much heat there already.

[Aspigander]

RR, would be great if someone would hire you. Sounds like you can do a whole lot of different types of stuff.

[peglem]

Maybe when you live in Phoenix fire loses it's appeal, as does anything hot since there's so much heat there already.

Oh, no, I love fires....we don't do them during the summer, but only because its too hot to go outside. One of the things I love about visiting Montana is the campfire play....and really, is there any other reason to go camping?

[milivica]

Yes, the food somehow tastes better. I have no idea why or what it is, but camping makes food taste better.

I mean usually, unless someone really burns it to a black ashy crisp.

And there's just this really neat 'closeness' around a camp fire, like some primal thing. Just so pleasant to be around others. I think I liked being 'forced' to not rely on the tv or computer for socializing purposes. Something fun about no electricity yet light.

There's also the tense excitement of watching some nimb knot of a relative initially dousing the wood with gasoline to light it. The 'woosh' of the instant flame and smell of burnt chest hair and eyelashes wafting on the wind. Lol.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

OMG Mili!

I might be a little late here...I didn't read every post and I can see from your last post that your state of mind is more normal now, but of course I can't resist my chance at blabbering on, so here it goes:

I could TOTALLY see Coley doing that. I know you've got a ton of responses that stay the same...but I completely 100% understand what you were describing about your days with Vince, mine are very much the same...you typed what goes through my mind many times every day...the things this kid does...

COLEY!:

No! It's not a good idea to hang from the garage door while it's opening.

No! It's not a good idea to shake all the bolts loose on the swingset while you are standing on the monkey bars and your sister is on the swing.

No! It's not a good idea to continue flushing the toilet when it gets that high up! Or leave the sink running to see how high it'll get.

No! it's not a good idea to shove playdough in the light socket.

No! it's not a good idea to race cars on the street and grab their door handles while on your bike.

No! It's not a good idea to try to fill the catch basin with the hose.

on & on & on

I feel absolutely the same, gotta pick your battles cuz otherwise, heck forget the amount of solatary the kid would have and the psychological impact of that, if I punished every single thing he did, I would be the 'enforcer' ALL fricken day! I worry about the psychological affects of that! It's exhausting!

But what I have learned is that: yes, absolutely impulsivity was at play here...but that does NOT mean that he had no ability to think anything through...he totally can, and this is the piece you need to address now.

I think Pegs had the right idea...it's gonna have to be a Vince Stuff sale to pay for all the damage and the expense of all that water too!

And from now on, when he has one of these brilliant ideas, it needs to meet with YOUR approval first. He can NOT run any experiments without prior approval - period!

Clearly he knows he can read his books, he's gotten approval for that in the past. He can play his games, he can ride his bike, etc etc.

But new & exciting 'ideas' have got to get clearance first - this is the new rule until he can demonstrate better thinking on these lines.

And then when he comes to you and says: mom I wanna build a tsunami...figure out a way for him to do it that is reasonable. If you don't care much about the water he used, at least he should have emptied the shed first...second he should have built a barrier to prevent the water from getting into the basement...then have at it, ya know.

I didn't read this entire thread, but I'm dying to hear what the consultant has/has to say.

Hope that helps some, and hope not too much damamge was done...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, I just went out to the garage and it seems only you would understand what I saw...

First I nearly tripped over his bike, planted right infront of the stairs...but then I noticed the rope, it's roughly a foot long, one end tied tightly to his pedal, the other to a rear wheel spoke. Nope, don't wanna see this experament play out.

As I sat there contemplating my next move, cuz lord knows just removing it won't prevent the experament from occuring, I looked up to see lawn furniture tied to the handle of the garage door, which was in the up position, and the chair was dangling, oh about 5' up.

:eek:

Surely not as bad as filling a shed with water, but WTF!

[peglem]

Mili, I just went out to the garage and it seems only you would understand what I saw...

First I nearly tripped over his bike, planted right infront of the stairs...but then I noticed the rope, it's roughly a foot long, one end tied tightly to his pedal, the other to a rear wheel spoke. Nope, don't wanna see this experament play out.

As I sat there contemplating my next move, cuz lord knows just removing it won't prevent the experament from occuring, I looked up to see lawn furniture tied to the handle of the garage door, which was in the up position, and the chair was dangling, oh about 5' up.

:eek:

Surely not as bad as filling a shed with water, but WTF!

Gotta love that kid! I wonder if he was sitting in the lawn chair, trying to get a ride!

[milivica]

Kristen, I totally gotta wonder - did you ever get any kind of testing done to see how Coley's brain utilizes glucose? Cause based on what you've said about him (and what I've said about Vince) I would really imagine our boys brains just don't use nearly the amount of glucose they should, sooooo, have low blood flow. You know what I mean right? I think of Coley cause of his intolerances or allergies to glucose or sugar or whatever...yeesh I can't remember! I mean adhd and asd have so much overlap anyhow, but I just hear so much more adhd in our boys that autism.

Edited to add this:
The researchers measured the level of glucose used by the areas of the brain that inhibit impulses and control attention. Glucose is the brain's main source of energy, so measuring how much is used is a good indicator of the brain's activity level. The investigators found important differences between people who have ADHD and those who don't. In people with ADHD, the brain areas that control attention used less glucose, indicating that they were less active. Look at the left typical brain loaded with blood flow, and the right adhd brain. http://telosnet.com/images/adhd01.jpg

At the moment I'm just now dabbling into what I could do that is noninvasive to increase the blood flow in Vincent's brain, which, I'm sure is about as low as it can be or he wouldn't be so hyper and impulsive. I wouldn't feel like I can never ever quite prepare and avert disaster from, his next move. Yet, if I look at his actions from the outside, as a person that didn't have to deal with the constant putting back together of my house (and shed) he's really quite the impulsive little inventor/explorer. I mean he really has the heart and soul of an inventor...just feels more like a mad scientist when I have to deal with the aftermath. I mean, it's not even that he does so much wrong or bad, but at this point I feel tense tense tense at all times that he is awake!!! I'm just a better parent to the kind of kid that can sit and be entertained by coloring or playing in sand or whatnot. I'm just not good at the mental ability it takes to continually forsee the unforseeable and be calm and 'oh well' when the Vincenator strikes. Probably someone with tons of kids is good at that, and I dunno if one gets good at that by becoming more and more numb through the years, or because they already had a major 'roll with it' personality like this one friend of mine - the only one that ever volunteered to babysit Vince and has had him over to her house since he was little. She just enjoys the heck out of him, and does not feel tired or energy depleted from him like I do...and she has a child with very serious medical needs, as well as a 1 year old, so is in constant motion all day plus works and rarely gets more than 4 hours sleep in a row for over 10 years now. I see her go 24-36 hours straight all the time, never even crabby, she's unreal!

[milivica]

I did talk with the consultant today, she said SO MUCH that made SO MUCH SENSE and I tried to remember it verbatim, and honestly I just can't. But basically we both really feel that though the autism has hugely improved the adhd is horrible, and I felt this was an adhd thing, she believes so too based on what I said...not that you can cleanly slice and dice adhd from autism, however, based on all his other gains it looks pretty clear.

Not just due to this kind of thing, but mostly due to his communication problems she feels it's highly highly likely that he has some kind of seizure activity going on, though not epilepsy (I think that's how she phrased it) because she has other kids that she has sent to the neuro who have like Vince dwindled in progress in certain areas of RDI, and they have been dx'd with seizure activity, then with seizure meds they improve by leaps and bounds. See, this is where RDI will not help, RDI cures autism but not (for instance) a seizure disorder. Vince should be looking much less autistic in his communication style, it's really hindering his ability to have friends...like he can't really tell a story in a way you can understand unless you understand HIM...for one thing he won't sequence well for you when he's telling a story, you don't know if he is talking about today on second and 5 years ago the rest of the story, know what I mean? It's like he starts in the middle of the story, you almost have to be there with Vince while an event happens so when he retells it you still understand despite all the parts he leaves out.

So, back to what the consultant said about the shed, this should not still be happening, there's really nothing 'behavioral' or intentional about what he does, it's not autism, it's not my parenting (which I do tend to blame when I'm upset). Seeing it from a distance now, and feeling calm now, it just reeks of adhd to me. It's why I don't 'consequate' him for these kinds of things, even by making him dry everything off. Yet, I have no problem with consequences or punishment for other things, but cause I have some remaining 'mommy instincts' I just feel when he's responsible and when he's not. Might not make sense, might sound like I'm making excuses, but I just don't feel he's fully responsible for what he did cause he's not fully responsible for being so impulsive - that's why they call it being 'impulsive'. He is impulse first, no foreshadowing like he should be able to at Stage 3 in RDI. Geez by Stage 5 he shouldn't even be recognizable by anyone as having had autism.

So, I know he'd never flood the shed again, but am sure he'll do something equally enraging soon enough! And it's just too hard for me, maybe not some moms, but for me to watch him constantly even though he's in school 1/2 the day. I had my years with my kids as toddlers where I couldn't even pee without leaving the door open to at least be able to hear them, I'm just done with that level of monitoring. Though by not being that thorough, I wind up nuts in the end...what can I say, I just feel pooped in the intense child monitoring department.

I just know I can't wait for the testing in Illinois, hopefully in October. I know when they do the brain imaging there going to see a brain that just isn't getting the blood flow it should big time. Now that I'm learning more about autism and adhd neurologically, I am for the first time comfortable with the idea of putting him back on those adhd meds.

[milivica]

Oh another thing the consultant spoke about what happens neurologically when a child gets caught in fright/flight/freeze responses, how when you mind is sort of stuck in those responses how you can never get to the learning master/apprentice or even patterns and so on. You'd have to hear her say it, it makes so much sense. She really is carefully and thoughtfully placing each piece of the human brain into the spot it goes but, then shows what it doesn't do that it should be doing and how that interrelates to all other functions going on in my kids brain. Might sound borning how I typed it but trust me it's not at all.

[Aspigander]

She just enjoys the heck out of him, and does not feel tired or energy depleted from him like I do...and she has a child with very serious medical needs, as well as a 1 year old, so is in constant motion all day plus works and rarely gets more than 4 hours sleep in a row for over 10 years now. I see her go 24-36 hours straight all the time, never even crabby, she's unreal!

Hey! I know! Does she have a shed? And a hose? Take the Vincenator to her shed if she does, give him a hose, then run away. See if that tests her personality. lol

Now that I'm learning more about autism and adhd neurologically, I am for the first time comfortable with the idea of putting him back on those adhd meds.

Do you think the shed incident would have even occurred with meds?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, I'm going to be honest and tell you I didn't read your entire response ...got 2 kids yanking at me at the moment and need to get them out of the house...

But quickly, I just wanted to say, just because his impulsivity and inventiveness may be driven by the flaws in his neurology due to ADHD, it ABSOLUTELY does NOT mean that you don't give him consequences...in fact it's the EXACT opposite.

He needs more!

He needs to build the connections to produce forthought...executive functioning. It means he needs more practice (where have I heard that before)...this is why I said he needs to check with you first on new ideas...show him how to process these ideas...connections will be made, then work them until they are strong!

Meantime, you absoultely need to give him firm limits & consequences for his missteps! otherwise he won't have motivation to come to you, which will basically eliminate any chance of him learning how to develop that executive functioning, ya know.

But the key here is that there is a HUGE difference between consequences and punishment. I am NOT talking punishment...I'm talking consequences.

You don't get angry (at least don't show it) you merely tell him that his actions have cost the family a considerable amount of money and it needs to be paid, that's all. And even have him figure out how HE will pay it.

And then you need to make a rule...and tell him the consequencs for it.

For example: "Vince you have really clever & fun ideas, however it seems you are not using your smarts to think about what might happen, so we need to consult eachother from now on before you do any of these inventions. Clear?"

Make him repeat it to you: "I will check with you first mom"

"Good, and if I find that you have not discussed something with me prior to implementaion, the consequence will be your responsibility to resolve (like buying a new lawn mower or whatever) and then you will also have a punishment for not following the rule, clear?"

Again make him repeat it. "I will be responsible for the damage and have a punishment for not following the rule"

"Good, and the punishment will be..."

Something like washing the car, doing all the vacuuming or something...not something that he will sit and stew about (like time-outs or grounding), something that with every step he will remember why...maybe mow an elderly neighbors lawn...like that.

You have to give him the incentive to discuss things with you, you don't want to squelch his curiousity, so you need to work his ideas (within reason) but you have to demonstrate for him, walk him through the executive functioning piece...and practice, practice, practice.


Pegs, yup, I totally think he wanted to sit in the chair for the ride up...problem is the button is on the opposite side of the garage...no way to push the button & make it to the chair in time...thank god the car was locked...cuz there's a remote in there :eek: and he knows it!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok Mili, a couple thoughts for you...

Look into neurofeedback. Not into getting it necessarily, but how it works...this will give you a good idea about the differences and 'nonivasive' type ideas.

Look into memory training. The theory is that short term memory plays a HUGE role in executive functioning, and where people have poor short term memory function there is more impulsivity. This is the reason for the Cogmed training Coley did, and it DID help! There are free things (on line) and more 'Rx' level things that have a higher cost...Cogmed is an Rx level memory trainer.

Also, on the glucose thing...not sure if this adds anything...but for Coley it was the fructose that his body was not processing correctly. Fructose breaks down in the liver. Sucrose (table sugar) breaks down to 50% glucose, which can be absorbed directly by mucus membranes along the digestive root, and 50% fructose which is converted by the liver using enzymes.

Given Coley's liver panel it lead docs to believe that it was not functioning properly, overworked and becoming damaged by the fructose. The more that went in the more that was clogging up his blood. His kidney also showed signs of stress...leading the docs to believe that it wasn't able to clear it from his system.

So that it ended up forming a barrier to the glucose...preventing it from getting to his brain efficiently...simultaneously his endocrine system worked overtime to clear the 'sugar' out of his blood, leading to low blood sugar as insuline does NOT breakdown fructose, but rather that all too important glucose. So while the fructose was blocking the glucose his endocrine system was eliminating it too.

So...that's Coley's specific issue...one which he is doing better with these days, but the effects have been left behind...in less than 'mature' processes in some areas...right.

So it's back to that practice thing...

But in light of that, and from everything I learned...it seems that if there is any type of metabolic, hmmm, let's call it, disfunction (even minor) it could lead to a similar thing...as in something not getting cleared properly from the blood. Over time anything can build to high enough levels, if it's coming in faster than it can be cleared, right.

There are also studies that show that ADHD reacts poorly to HFCS and other sugars as well. MANY manufactured sugars are processed from fructose. So it seems to me that attention/focus/impulsivity/hyperactivety at a bare minimum is a result of poor sugar processing by the body, and likely fructose (or atleast the manufactured type). And of course it comes in loads of forms from natural to manmade, from carbs that get converted to pure glucose.

As an FYI, you can get glucose and dextrose (dried glucose)...and my experience would indicate that using those forms in place of these others had a completley unexpected result as far as improved neurological function goes.

Alright...got get out there now...hope that gives you some ideas...meantime I strongly suggest that you visit that ADHD website that I linked for you before...it has LOADS of info from parental strategies, to books, to therapies, to research/discussion, to individual stories. There are people there from kids with ADHD to parents of ADHD kids to granparents of ADHD kids. And you may not be surprised to find out that many there are not just dealing with ADHD...SO many either have 1 kid on the spectrum (or a sibling) and another with ADHD, but also that MANY don't have ONLY ADHD...anxiety, depression, aspergers, other PDD traits, on & on...I really think you'll find it helpful!

And oh...just my theory, but I think ADHD is on the spectrum too...I just think it's a higher functioning spt on it. That may be because Coley still has some PDD traits...but it just doesn't look to me that his ASD stuff left to reveal underlying things...it looks more to me like as certain pieces 'connect' certain things haven't and those that are left look add up to ADHD, but it doesn't really change what's been there all along...

Let's see, like this rope obsession...he used to sit and tie things up all the time, just knot rope all day...tieing it around stuff with no direction, just obsession.

The obsession is gone but the desire to play with rope isn't...does that make any sense?

[milivica]

Hi Kristen, what I mean by not giving him consequences, is not giving him punitive consequences.

See when I was his age and much older too, I did at least one giant screw up every day. It seemed I was a nonstop screw up. I especially screwed up when I was trying to do good. Vince has it hard enough knowing he screwed up, I won't punish him besides. Does that make sense? You can't imagine what it feels like, and how anxious a person gets, when for no reason apparent to them they are yelled at and punished and consequated for stuff that didn't seem 'wrong'. I was so jumpy as a kid, probably why I was always so skinny. I never knew when the next "what the he!! are you doing" was coming. I never got away with anything, since I didn't play with other kids I think everything I did was magnified too.

Foresight and hindsight looks a lot the same in the brain, as far as the parts of the brain it utilizes. You can get a child or person to beat their brains out trying to memorize what not to do, which is how it was for me...but make no mistake that does NOT help teach forethought. The thing that has helped, that I'm again stressing with him, is master apprentice type stuff. He has been, since the shed incident, asking me if pretty much everything he does is ok. It really makes me sad, he really doesn't know how to judge for himself - he asks things like 'can I go to the bathroom' that he'd never have had to ask before. I can't imagine what a nervous wreck he'd be if I gave consequences that were punitive - that would be like punishing a 2 year old for spilling their milk...it'd be fine to say, "woopsie, let's clean it up" cause that's not punitive. But to say "I told you all week not to put your milk on the edge, now that it fell you have to clean it up".

I don't think I'm able to explain myself well here. Vince is already nervous at times anticipating his next f - up. Totally not unusual for asd's or adhd kids to feel like that. I felt like 100% f - up as a kid, 100% failure, especially since I only mentally marked the negatives. Thank God he doesn't still do that. But anyhow like most parents, you remember what was traumatic for you as a child, and don't want to see your children suffer the same. I am constantly pointing out the good Vince does, and he can point it out for himself as well...however...he is very fragile when it comes to 'failure' because being as hyper as he is he fails a lot.

Had it been a different day, had I known the lawn mower would dry and be ok, had I been in a better mood, the whole incident wouldn't have even warranted a post. His intentions are never bad...self serving quite often for sure but not intentionally vindictive or anything like that. While I'm sure my parenting will need work throughout my life, cause learning to be a better parent is something no one ever perfects, no matter how mad I get at times there's nothing more important to me than understanding what was going through his head so I can feel close to him and know what to do. When he flooded the shed at first, I didn't understand what was going through his head. I do now, just like he understands it was a 'bad' thing to do so is currently asking me if it's ok to do pretty much everything. That makes me feel bad, he tries really hard, it's easy to forget how hard he tries cause after all he is the 'Vincenator'.

The cut and dry, black and white issues, I have no problem being punitive! I tend to forget with him though, that just voicing my disapproval and disappointment with him goes a LOOOOONG way. We big time have master/apprentice going for us now, it's a big deal to him to please me...I need be more mindful of this new development and use it to help him think before he acts, just like one does for nt kids.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, I think we are on the same wave length here, but you might be missing my point a little...

I absolutely agree that punishments and strict limits are too much for these kids...I would even argue that these kids are more clever at thinking about creative things BECAUSE their executive functioning is not well development...much in the same way that a blind person's hearing is hightened.

To discourage their strenghts would be a BIG mistake, and yes, if you look at that site you will see that just about every thing involves discussion about how it may further errode self-esteem...it's a BIG problem.

Punitive is not good, ever!

So I was not at all suggesting that you treat it like a F'up...rather the opposite...

"Whoa, a tsunami...that sounds cool Vince...how do you think you could build one"

"well I was thikning I could fill up the shed and release it really fast"

"Well that would certainly be enough water to create a tsunami effect, but Geeze, can you think of some problems with that idea?"

"No sounds like a good one to me"

"Well, what about all the stuff in the garage, do you think it would be a bad idea if any of that was submerged in water"

"Oh yeah didn't think of that"

"Well what could you do to rectify that problem"

"Can we take it out"

"That's a lot of work, are you willing to put it all back after"

"Sure, if you help me"

"Absolutely"

"Now I just have 2 other thoughts..."

"What's that?"

"Where's all that water gonna go?"

"Oh hadn't thought of that"

"What could you do to prevent it from getting into the basement?"

Etc.

And the other thought, technically, I think what he built was a tidal wave not a tsunami, so It could have even been a good opportunity to get a bowl and drop a rock in and go from there.

This is teaching executive functioning, and it's teaching him that you will NOT discourage his ideas. Bolsters his self-esteem, and encourages those connections, see?

Thing is that if he is getting to the point where his ideas have large impacts, he absolutely needs to learn consequences. Not harsh or punitive punishments, but consequences...because you don't want the next time to involve a ramp and your car and a serious injury, ya know.

Read this book: Raising a self-disciplined Child, Brooks.

And another thought I had while making lunch...magnesium facilatates proper sugar processing within the body. Not suggesting Vince needs more, but just that this is one of it's functions, and it has a calming affect. Makes you wonder... and MANY ADHDers use it to aid in falling asleep, and it certainly has an impact on hyperactivity!!!!

Something to look at, or even test out. I forget the high content foods, but easy enough to find.

Ok, off to MILs, Coley's having a sleepover :D, and then to the library with Audrey.

[milivica]

Magnesium, really! Ok let me look into that. I seem to remember b-6 and magnesium to be once touted as improving autism for some kids. I think aerobic stuff like riding a bike helps oxygen flow to the brain too, which is why exercise helps depression. At least that's what I thought, anyone know if that's accurate? But helping the brain to use glucose, heck till recently I didn't know the brain used glucose, I really didn't think about what it used for fuel.

As far as the conversation you used as an example, that's all good and fine if he asks me first. Actually if he just takes that extra few moments to ask, rather than be impulsive, he can totally have the foresight to predict the consequences even better than me! He'll think of consequences beyond what I do, it's really amazing. Which is probably why it's so vexing when he doesn't, I think I wind up wondering if he can't or just doesn't give a sh!t and when I feel that way that's when I get angry.

But yeah we already have great talks and share ideas and elaborate on one another's ideas. One thing I sure don't do is negotiate, not for things like bedtime and so on. There's like set in stone rules, and the kids just have to listen, I really don't have a consequence if they don't, they just have to. I've been told I am consistent, it's honestly not that, I'm just stubborn. But filling the shed, that one was not a set in stone type rule, hmmm, geee, just never came up before.

Where you and I differ is I do believe in being punitive if the occasion calls for it. Doesn't have to be physical at all, I don't mean that.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok Mili, here's a new rule you need to be consistent with:

New ideas NEED to be approved first - period!

And if they are not, then you need to consider a consequence. bedtime is one thing, impulsivity is another. You HAVE to make him stop and think.

Making him pay for the damage is not punitive, it's a consequence for his actions. It's what would happen if you weren't there to let it go...as in if he was an adult on his own...he MUST learn this now!

[Aspigander]

Hey Kristen? May I ask what you mean by punitive? You say don't be punitive, but in an earlier post, you say:

"Good, and if I find that you have not discussed something with me prior to implementaion, the consequence will be your responsibility to resolve (like buying a new lawn mower or whatever) and then you will also have a punishment for not following the rule, clear?"

Again make him repeat it. "I will be responsible for the damage and have a punishment for not following the rule"

"Good, and the punishment will be..."

Don't the words punishment and punitive both come from the same root word?

[peglem]

Its like your "oops, you spilled your juice. We better clean it up." example...just a bigger oops and a bigger clean up. You do it with small things already.

And I think the idea of a "new ideas get discussed with me" rule is a good idea. It will help him evaluate what he needs to okay with you and will eliminate the asking to use the restroom.

[milivica]

I don't think it's possible for a child to get their new ideas approved first. I'm not getting how that would work, kids are constantly getting new ideas, elaborating on that, and on and on.

When a child has adhd, a parent isn't able to always make the child stop and think first...geez Kristen if it were that easy I'd have done it already. You can learn 'tricks' and that I try to teach him, but his impulsivity isn't due to parenting - to any lack of technique or anything. I'm the one with the bright idea of yanking him off his adhd med so I guess I can't be too surprised. I was just venting really.

Usually I feel like a seasoned parent, ready and able to parent effectively. I have felt overwhelmed for a few weeks now, but I feel like I'm 'back' and we're back on track now. And have a clean lawn mower to boot. I was weening off my meds at the time, I think I made more out of it than it was.

The asking about using the restroom is an autism thing, that of course is always being worked on. He was just kind of doing overkill on looking before he leaped. I bought a sub sandwich for the family today, he did actually save 3/4 of it after asking if he could have some...dunno if I mentioned right after the shed thing he ate all the left over burgers I'd saved for the entire family's dinner so that's why I mention the saving of the sub sandwich.

[milivica]

Oh forgot to say...looking back I should have had him dry the shed with a 'woops the milk spilled, let's clean it up' attitude. I think I was just doing my own thing, getting burgers ready for the grill, and just didn't want to. Seems like an obvious answer now. Duh Lisa.

[Aspigander]

The asking about using the restroom is an autism thing, that of course is always being worked on.

Oh really? That might explain why I asked to use the restroom (or at least let someone know of my impending restroom usage) for YEARS, and I mean much longer than I should have. Like maybe preteen to early tean years.

I finally let go of that when I got old enough my parents were leaving me alone more, and, well, I'm not gonna hold my bladder until someone gets home to grant permission! LOL

[milivica]

I think autism causes trouble with knowing what information is share-worthy and not. I can't think of how to explain it at the moment, but back to that black and white thinking...on a scale of 1 to 10 you might think everything you are thinking is a 10 and should be shared. Nt's are totally that way too when they're little, but they develop the ability to automatically judge what to share and what no one will be interested in knowing as well as what is relevant and irrelevant. Although of course nt's of every age make mistakes in what they choose to share with others at times, so it's not just aspies.

[Aspigander]

I do have trouble with knowing what/what not to share, or what may/may not be appropriate to blurt out, but I'm not sure that my asking to use the bathroom was that...I think it's more having trouble with knowing what I do/do not need permission for. Perhaps that's kind of the same thing?

[milivica]

Oh! You weren't sure if you had permission to go to the bathroom like even at home? Was it that you felt you needed permission to leave the room, or would you come out of your room, to ask to use the bathroom? Just wondering. What were you thinking, do you remember?

[roadracer]

I think autism causes trouble with knowing what information is share-worthy and not. I can't think of how to explain it at the moment, but back to that black and white thinking...on a scale of 1 to 10 you might think everything you are thinking is a 10 and should be shared. Nt's are totally that way too when they're little, but they develop the ability to automatically judge what to share and what no one will be interested in knowing as well as what is relevant and irrelevant. Although of course nt's of every age make mistakes in what they choose to share with others at times, so it's not just aspies.

So if what I am thinking is a 10, and I think it should be shared, how can I know if people are going to be interested in it?

[milivica]

In person, body language is how you can tell if someone is interested.

You don't strike me as a 1 or 10 kind of guy, you don't share things here that are 1's...you don't have to share only 10's, things that are a 5 through 10 are fine, even a 4 3 or 2 on occasion, just not 1 after 1 after 1 constantly, which, you don't do.

You're actually excellent at leaving out excess details, better than me that's for sure.

[roadracer]

In person, body language is how you can tell if someone is interested.

You don't strike me as a 1 or 10 kind of guy, you don't share things here that are 1's...you don't have to share only 10's, things that are a 5 through 10 are fine, even a 4 3 or 2 on occasion, just not 1 after 1 after 1 constantly, which, you don't do.

You're actually excellent at leaving out excess details, better than me that's for sure.

I try to stay on the topic of the forum, so being this is a autism forum, I know I should keep non autism related posts to a minimum. I always get the urge to share with someone, my photos, about computers or cycling, like yesterday we got a new internet connection, it runs at 8mbps, and I was very excited, but resisted the urge to post about it because it is so off topic. (but I just did, and now I feel better :p) What frustrates me is when I make a thread/post, and I think it is a 10, something that really excites me, and then it gets no replys, dosent happen so much here like it does on busy sites, but it always gets me so frustrated. On some boards I have posted some of my photos, but then no one says anything or says they like them, so I feel like they must not be any good. I guess I have a habit of thinking it is just me, or that people just dont like me, when really I guess it could just be that people might not be interested. Not sure if any of that makes any sense

[milivica]

I know for a fact that everyone here loves to see your photos. Just because you don't get a high amount of replies means nothing....look at how many people view your photos. There have been times for me too, and I bet everyone here, that the replies are low and we feel self doubt. But brush it off, ignore that feeling of doubt.

You know how it is, sometimes people are busy, or don't know what to say, etc...so it might not be about your post specifically or your subject matter or what you said personally, that generates few replies. Anyhow, when I feel self conscious or worried about few replies, I just blow it off. I know lots of times I wanted to reply but the replies there already stated what I felt, or I was just too rushed to create a thoughtful reply.

You're good, honest.

If you would have come here 9+ years ago when I first did, you'd have found fewer than 1/2 of the threads having anything to do with autism. It was silliness and joke and laughter and people posting that they had laughed till they peed their chair or shot coffee out of their nose onto their screen. I can't think of a single thread that actually stayed on topic back then.

Anyhow, technically, since you have autism anything you post is autism related!

Lol,
Lisa

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, mind if I get back to the subject, LOL!

The site is irritating me today...well don't know if it's my connection or the site...but I'm wanting AWAY from the PC so I'm gonna be quick, but it's not you guys, K!

For starters, yes, punitive & punishment is the same thing. Punishing for the sake of punishing is not good unless it's being done to stop a behavior, and even then it's not too effective. I think the threat of punishment actually has more effect, and not that that is all that effective either...particularly with these kids. And as has already been mentioned, often it backfires into low self esteem, which can spiral into something else...so it's best to use it sparingly. Keggy might be able to help with this more...

As for consequences, that should always be done...just like the drying up the shed example. But not levied like..."You $hit-head you flooded the shed, better get that water sopped up before your dad sees it" More like...oops you spilled the milk...or even no words being spoken and just the mop being handed over.

The problem that you have though...imagine if Lisa didn't have a shed and he decided to fill the neighbors shed instead. The consequence should be no different just because it's his mom's stuff... And we're talking about the the lawn mower being ok, well what if it wasn't...then what? So just because the lawn mower is fine, it was all good in the end? What if it was an electric mower, what if there were other things in there too? It's NOT all about that...

The root problem is that his problem solving and executive functioning is not 'mature' particularly for his genius ideas or his age level...ya know.

At 5 he likely wouldn't fill the shed...what's he gonna do at 16?

So the larger goal here is to build those executive functioning skills. You could scare the bagezus out of him to gain a level of compliance...but that won't help him think better.

And for the love of gawd Mili...don't you know me better than that...do you really think that I believe this has anything to do with parenting...do you really think that I think that other kids get this lesson, and ADHD/ASD kids just someone get neglected...CRIKIE!

Ok, so I'll admit, 'idea' might have been a bad choice of words...how about experiment/invention...

It's getting a little late to use the shed, you could try but I think it would be a waste...so next time, you just say, ya know Vince, I totally think your invention was cool, but your inventions are getting a little risky. I'm going to have to make a new rule...from now on when you want to do an experiment we need to just consult first, Ok.

(he'll probably be like WTF, but hopefully will say okkkkkkkkk?????)

Then explain to him that you don't want to discourage his expirements, but just want to make sure that it's done in a risk free manner...deal?

And then lay down a consequence for NOT following the rule...it has to be a 2 parter...1st part: like clean up the spill, but the second needs to be punitive for not following the rule. Kinda like don't drink & drive...or red light means stop...it's a rule and whether he likes it or not there is a consequence for breaking it, and it's punishment...(of course assuming no one gets hurt or nothing gets damaged in addition - ya know?)

So once you've got the new rule in place...then it's time to build that executive functioning skill. Otherwise you won't get the opportunity, see?

So next time he has a plan for an expirement...you go through the questioning and make sure he's thought everything through...which he likely wouldn't have...so you help him. And you do this until you have a conversation with him and he's thought of everything himself...then you are done with the needing to check in, and you let him know he's earned the priviledge of unsupervised experimentation, but that he will always be responsible for any damage - period.

[milivica]

Hi Kristen, building executive function is exactly exactly exactly what he needs, and by that I mean his brain's ability to communicate with itself, then make decisions using executive function. It's coming along, far far better than a few years ago for sure, and in terms of autism he's darn close to age level in this area. But you're not seeing the adhd part of him, which, is the part causing my woes - either that or I'm not seeing how what you're telling me will help which is possible (never said I was smart!).

I had to look at weather he was being set up for success...things have dramatically improved just by exercising the daylights out of him daily...we both have bikes, but I have a battery and motor. Heh heh heh. Thanks to Carmen. So we have been going on these great loooooong rides, after which, no mayhem, no unexpecteds...remember I'm not so good at unexpecteds, you saw how AspieG felt about the cleaning people coming, though I would not have reacted that way I can totally totally see why she did cause that's how I react to Vince putting his 'twist' on my day. I do often get too blown away given the situation - other times I handle it better than most. It's a bad combination sometimes, having two people on the spectrum in the same household...I'm usually well able to flow with his surprises, but not that day. Then anything he'd done in the last several months kind of exploded out of me over that one event. Things that bothered me mildly in the past that I suppressed turned into a volcano. I meant everything I said in my original post when I said it, but don't any longer.

I was also trying for the third time to reduce my Paxil, the first 2 reductions were a success but I cringe and my reaction to the flooded shed as well as the title to this post, and given the same circumstances would not even care enough about a flooded plastic shed that will drain itself anyhow, to say "oops" and have him dry it. I would however ask what he was thinking, I've been surprised how often he actually has a good reason for doing things that seem ridiculous at first. After his reason, I share my perspective, I should have just let him know things could have gotten wrecked from the water, how it would make me feel, and ask him not to do it again. Knowing others perspectives, he would not do it again (in this case, not every case) so done done and done. He's still fairly new to borrowing anothers perspective, so that often has the biggest impact on him (again not always, but in this case).

But here's the thing, you and others took a lot of time and effort to say all that was said and I did get some good ideas, and that was very meaningful to me. I took child who is still trying to build 'executive function' and in need of tons of physical activity, and gave him none for days and no companions (other than me) to occupy him, add to that the impulsivity of adhd and I expected him not to blow my mind daily. Not gonna work! Had I posted about my flooded shed on the adhd forum I'd have probably been laughed off.

Once again, I cannot hardly wait to get his neurological work up in Illinois. I'm hearing all kinds of stories now of people coming from all over the country to be in the study for the free 18grand of work and treatment. So guess I sure won't be the only one from out of state. Till then, since I am for reasons not completely known to me, still unwilling to give him adhd meds since the biking has helped - but am going with him to his shrinks tomorrow so that might change. Till then, I'm going to keep exercise up and make sure I exercise him before school. True to Murphy's Law form, I have so far gained 5 pounds with all my new exercising. Can ya believe it! Unreal.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, I'm not really sure what is preventing you from 'hearing me' here...I'm really thinking I might call you...

Here's the fact...I am ABSOLUTELY seeing this as a total ADHD thing, and 0% ASD...ADHD is defined by the lack of execfutive functioning...all of it, the impulsivity, the distractibility, the hyperactivity...all of it is believed to be rooted in the less than ideal executive functioning that the docs can absolutley capture on brain scans. Furthermore the present wisdom suggests that it is short-term memory that is causing the poor executive functioning.

I repeat:
- check into neurofeedback for a better explanation of what I just said.
- check into the memory training & cognitive training to get those connections going.
- And absolutely check the ADHD site...you would not have been laughed off, that statement is making me laugh HARD...you would have likely been flooded by tons of similar stories, and advice on managing your own reaction to it. Most moms/dads get to the point where they just want to kill their kid, if it's not at the flooded shed, at the next thing...and need to be talked down off the ledge, ohhh prolly 1x/wk or something...

Ok, so with all that said, knowing it's 6:30am there and I can't call you for a little while still...I'm just going to say one more time, this time maybe in a different way that that lightbulb will go off...actually I'm thinking your not not getting it, but that for some reason you are thinking I'm just way off and don't want to believe this is the answer...and boy the roles are reversed now...get your perspecive into those first glorious days of RDI working...think about how 'DER! it can't be that simple, but somehow it is' you felt...

Now, remember it's all about connections...

It's the same darn thing.

It's just like anything else anyone else learns...it takes...drum role...what's the word Lisa? That's right: PRACTICE!

But before he even practices, he needs to learn how to do it...you need to be....ready, the MASTER, and what does he need to be?

Get it?

You need to just demonstate the process, and make sure he practices...it's not about knowing that filling a shed is wrong or perhaps not such a good idea...we are not wanting him to walk around checking a mental sheet about what is acceptable 'normal' or 'typical' behavior, we are wanting him to think...hmmm I'd really like to build my own tsunami, how can I do that...and then have the ability to think through his idea.

There is no possible way for you to give HIM that sorta check-list, no way! Maybe some other kid, but not kids like Vince or Coley, no way!

And even other kids need to develop executive functioning skills too...some of it they learn like 'gotta do what mom & dad says otherwise I'll be made uncomfortable in some way'...and this is the crux of the peer-pressure issues, because if Mom & Dad son't say something like: don't have unprotected sex, don't get into a car with a stranger, don't do drugs (you know all those subjects like that that parents hate talking about) then the kids are stuck...because they've only learned how to think so far ahead...well if mom & dad don't find out, then there is no reason for me not to....so solution: keep mom & dad from finding out...see?

So, the goal, to get him practicing the actual process of anticipating (not your perspective) the outcome of his actions! The results of his plan! get it?

You can do this with more than just his expirements too, and it's a good idea to do that...anytime you have a probelm or a dilemma, ask Vince to help you figure it out. Or just randomly ask him questions like when you're driving down the streeet...Vince think I should blow the light, we're kinda running late? And just think out loud, prompting him for his thoughts along the way...make sense?