Castration drug pushed for autistic children

[roadracer]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-autism-lupron-may21,0,242705.story

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:
:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

I cant even say anything about this, someone hand me a knife I got some cutting to do to these doctors... lets see how they like it!!!!!!
I dont want to offend any parents here, but this is just damn sick, and any parent willing to do this to there child should be locked up, it would be criminal to do this to any other child, but they make it okay to do it to a autistic, because you know autistics are second rate human beings...
I cant even put this into words how it makes me feel, if this becomes a popular treatment, we are better off just going back to the dark ages of treatments, is a labotomy or electric shock any better? This is taking away a childs right to be human... Words cant say how mad this makes me

[Pamster]

I can't believe that this is even being considered. It's inhuman to force sterilization on ANYONE. I read something about this yesterday and it is upsetting to say the least. Sorry it's happening. :( I agree with you roadracer, this is wrong on so many levels. :(

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I'm just at a loss for words...:(

[MomOTwins]

If you want to see what real scientists have to say about these quacks, take a look at http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/.

I understand what it is like to have a child with autism (having one HFA-classified son and one Aspie son), and the constant thought that you aren't doing enough to help them grow and bloom into the great beings that they are. However, as a scientist (who relies on proof to help make decisions about medical treatment) and a mom who has lived with these kids for almost 13 years, this grasping at any "woo" that is advertised as being a "cure" for autism is hard for me to understand.

Kim

[Keggy]

[URL="http://www.chicagotribune.com/health/chi-autism-lupron-may21,0,242705.story"]I dont want to offend any parents here, but this is just damn sick, and any parent willing to do this to there child should be locked up, it would be criminal to do this to any other child, but they make it okay to do it to a autistic, because you know autistics are second rate human beings...
I cant even put this into words how it makes me feel, if this becomes a popular treatment, we are better off just going back to the dark ages of treatments, is a labotomy or electric shock any better?

I can see where this is useful, and I know like any other therapy it can be misused. Given that there are people who spend their entire lives institutionalized, having to always wear gear to protect themselves and are so dangerous to others they are limited in who they see and what they do. This is because they are violent and sexually preoccupied. It may seem inhumane that their testosterone levels become so low they loose all interest in sex, but they gain the ability to have relationships with people.

I quoted you Road.. because you may not be aware that we still use ECT today (electric shock therapy) its effective and an alternative to drugs. People are sedated for it, its quick, and works pretty well for some people. Its not like in the movies.

[milivica]

There are precious few choices for a parent, when they are afraid their child will kill them, or a sibling. I'd rather give my kid this shot then send him to a residential facility, who will treat his violence with daily ritual of fear and abuse and drugs to zombie him out. A parent can only take so much, to me this would be something to think about when every other option had been exhausted.

My little sister is locked away for life seeing green ladies coming out the wall telling her to kill. One minute you're eating your cheerios, the next your little sister (who is grown up now) is trying to kill you with the big knife. She started to change at 14, for no apparent reason. She's was in and out of hospitals and institutions, when ever her insanely high amounts of tranquilizers were no longer effective. I once took ONE of the NINE pills she took every day, and I slept for two days. I kid you not. It was called mellaril, not sure how to spell it. By around 21, she decided she wanted a baby, the green lady who came out of the wall told her she needed a baby, so, my sister proceeded to do her utmost to get pregnant, thank God she didn't. When her parents (my dad and her mom) found out decided to, unbeknownst to her, have her tubes tied, I was all for it. They did not have the insurance or ability to monitor her night and day, it was a small town way down south, and it was twenty five years ago. They had her living at home as often as possible, I tried (at 21) to have her live with me which didn't work at all...I thought she was just stubborn, but found out she was psychotic. I couldn't handle her, I sure tried, but couldn't. I had to work, she needed constant supervision.

So, believe it or not, I don't object entirely to this, I'd have to know much much more about the potential benefit/risk. It has to be considered on a case by case basis. I tried to imagine, when Vince was so so angry and violent, how it felt to feel that way all day every day. It was miserable for him, for years and years and years I searched for answers. Would something to reduce his testosterone have been something HE wanted? To not feel the way he did, so angry all the time, he might have wanted that and other kids might like not feeling so intense all the time too. There's a lot to consider. I can't even find the words to describe how tired I was back then. Had RDI never come along, I'd be forced to look into this type of thing, or send him to residential. Or wait for him to make good on his threat and kill us in our sleep, then kill Carmen. Things were so bad.

I gotta say I'm with Keg on this one.

[mrsjerome]

I think we should be more filled with horror with

The off label use of powerful anti-psychotics,

I wonder if there are any cases of kids harming

Themselves or others while they’re on Lupron?

[roadracer]

Mili I thought out of all the people you would be one who would agree with me
You do realize what this treatment is dont you?
chemical castration is doing the same thing as just regular castration does, so you are saying if it makes your son calm buy cutting his balls off you would do that? Of course it will make him calm, just like raming a rod into a persons brain for the labotomy makes a person pretty calm after wards. This is not just giving someone a drug, it is turning them into something that is not human.
I just wanted to make sure you understand this?

I somewhat agree with keggy because I think she is talking about people who have the violent sexual urges. That is why this med was invented, so people who can not resist the urge to rape children or whatever have a option THEY CAN CHOSE so they dont end up spending the rest of there life in a prision/instituation. To me that is a big difference between using it for what it was made for and using it to control autistic children. Using this on children is sickening beyond words.

Also keggy, I have meet a few people online who had the modern version of ECT, works for some I guess, but I was just talking about the treatments they used way back.

[peglem]

Well, I would be willing to try shock therapy (there was some school, in NY, I think that used this. It was very controversial), but this....I don't know. If it was about normalizing testosterone levels, well, sure. But those hormones have a lot of interaction with every system in the body. Low testosterone puts you at high risk for heart problems (the serious kind), for instance. But this guy is not even looking at the testosterone level, so much as just linking any lab abnormalitiy with testosterone (because its a hormone that can be linked to just about all body processes). I'm not saying this "therapy" should never be tried, but I got from the article that this guy is not exactly using it as a last resort...

Now see, the shock therapy, (not the lobotomy kind) is way less invasive, I think. And my reasoning for this being more okay, is that a little shock seems way less harmful than the stuff my child does to herself. Whenever this issue comes up, I always hear the argument, "I wouldn't even do this to a dog!" So let me just get this out of the way....What would you do to a dog that acted the way my daughter does? Right, euthanasia. So, don't go there.

I would no doubt feel differently if my child was more aggressive toward others, but we know how to avoid her aggression...let her hurt herself. And I would have to take drastic action if others were in danger. I get the "never say never" thing, believe me, I've done a lot of things that I was "never" going to do.

My little sister is locked away for life seeing green ladies coming out the wall telling her to kill. One minute you're eating your cheerios, the next your little sister (who is grown up now) is trying to kill you with the big knife. She started to change at 14, for no apparent reason. She's was in and out of hospitals and institutions, when ever her insanely high amounts of tranquilizers were no longer effective. I once took ONE of the NINE pills she took every day, and I slept for two days. I kid you not. It was called mellaril, not sure how to spell it. By around 21, she decided she wanted a baby, the green lady who came out of the wall told her she needed a baby, so, my sister proceeded to do her utmost to get pregnant, thank God she didn't. When her parents (my dad and her mom) found out decided to, unbeknownst to her, have her tubes tied, I was all for it. They did not have the insurance or ability to monitor her night and day, it was a small town way down south, and it was twenty five years ago. They had her living at home as often as possible, I tried (at 21) to have her live with me which didn't work at all...I thought she was just stubborn, but found out she was psychotic. I couldn't handle her, I sure tried, but couldn't. I had to work, she needed constant supervision.


Ahhh, Mili, so sorry for that whole situation. God bless you for trying. I have a SIL who spent some very difficult years going stark raving mad. She came close to snapping my neck once, out of the blue. Its so hard to have someone you love in this kind of pain. If they could find something that could relieve her pain, even if it shortened her life, I think it would be worth it. Sure glad I don't have to make decisions like that. Hope I never do. BTW, my SIL has been on psych meds for @ 5 years now, and is quite functional.

[Aspigander]

This kinda sounds like another case...wasn't there a thread months back about parents who had their daughter go through growth stunting treatments and got her a hysterectomy so she'd be easier to deal with? This kind of reminds me of that.

The big big big big problem I have with this kind of thing is that it seems this is being done to kids who don't have a choice. I know parents always have to do things that their kids may not choose (at least at the time), but we're talking here about something that has huge future consequences. Would the child, as an adult, choose to be sterilized? Seems to me the treatment is for the sole benefit and comfort of parents without much thought to future implications when the child reaches adulthood. I don't think that's the way to go.

[peglem]

The big big big big problem I have with this kind of thing is that it seems this is being done to kids who don't have a choice. I know parents always have to do things that their kids may not choose (at least at the time), but we're talking here about something that has huge future consequences. Would the child, as an adult, choose to be sterilized? Seems to me the treatment is for the sole benefit and comfort of parents without much thought to future implications when the child reaches adulthood. I don't think that's the way to go.

I can see the child, as an adult, choosing this-not for the sterility, but because they are so tired of being miserable and having these violent episodes, that leave them so incapacitated and unable to do even the things they themselves want to do. Maybe some parents would take this treatment lightly and just do it to make their own lives easier, but that shouldn't (IMHO) make the treatment off limits for those who desperately need a solution to behaviors that endanger the entire family and surrounding communities. Would something like this have saved Sky Walker (was that his name?) from killing his mother, who he loved? Would he have chosen sterility over his current life? I don't know the answer to those questions, but don't think we should rule out a possible treatment without considering those kinds of things 1st.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I'd love to hear Wally's take on this.

[Aspigander]

Be nice if there was some kind of help that wasn't so drastic, though. Now I've had some pretty violent meltdowns in the past, probably not as violent as some but I've had some really bad meltdowns. Had someone force-sterilized me (okay so they couldn't, as one of the issues I was born with was that I never had uterus/ovaries, so I guess using myself as an example is moot...of course we never knew that until I was what...19 or 20), I'm not so sure I'd appreciate it now (of course, I'm not having that severity of meltdowns now).

[peglem]

Be nice if there was some kind of help that wasn't so drastic, though. Now I've had some pretty violent meltdowns in the past, probably not as violent as some but I've had some really bad meltdowns. Had someone force-sterilized me (okay so they couldn't, as one of the issues I was born with was that I never had uterus/ovaries, so I guess using myself as an example is moot...of course we never knew that until I was what...19 or 20), I'm not so sure I'd appreciate it now (of course, I'm not having that severity of meltdowns now).

Not advocating this as 1st or only intervention, only keeping it as a possible intervention, for someone who is undoubtedly more violence prone than you, and who may be facing a worse fate without it. Not as a punishment for violence. I don't think most autistic people who are violent are choosing violence. Just like you don't want to have meltdowns, my daughter doesn't want to be violent or aggressive. Chemically lowering testosterone is a drastic intervention, one I don't foresee using with my daughter. But, I can see where there may be cases where many less drastic things did not work and the alternatives to this may be worse than sterility.

[mrsjerome]

It appears there is a two part to this story

Autism doctor: Troubling record trails
Doctor treating autism

In the name of safety Dr. Mayer Eisenstein’s practice embraces
Home births and shuns vaccines, but parents lawsuits tell a story
Of harm and death

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-autism-doctor-eisenstein-may22,0,3826791.story

Very controversial dr. Just how reliable this guy is I guess would be subject
To interpretation.

[roadracer]

I take it personal, these treatments like this I take it personal. I think when I was little and 'more autistic' what if this treatment was used on me, what if my parents did this to me. I take that personal when some doctor says the correct treatment for ME would be the equivalent of castrating me.

Anyone who thinks this is a okay treatment I ask you this. My parents beat me when I was a kid, it was a great treatment, helped me so much. I think I would be way lower functioning if my parents didn't beat me, if I didn't get those treatments. So then it was okay for my parents to beat me then? the treatment helped correct?

Parents don't start beating there kids because it would be wrong to do that, no matter how much progress was made!!! So why is it okay to do treatments that are WAY worse then a beating, treatments that are so wrong you cant put it into words, but yet you beat your kid and you will get locked up because it is just plain wrong? So I wonder how many people here would tell me that my beatings and treatment was the 'okay treatment'

To me I see it as people just look at certain humans, like a low functioning autistic, they look at them different then they look at other humans, so all they can see is this person who cant talk and beats there head off the wall or whatever, and cant see that person as much as a human being as them selfs. They cant see these people as having feelings just like everyone else. They treat them like a walking head banging vegetable, so it is easy to pump them full of drugs or do whatever you need to. I know parents here dont treat there children like that, but when other people who dont care so much set the standards they see it as okay to treat a head banging vegetable like this, they dont see dont see the common human and how they are not so different from themselfs.

[tgrimes]

Relax, it's not gonna happen. (Not to the extent you are thinking) I didn't read the whole article but it says right there on the first page this Eisenstein person who started the frachise clinics is having second thoughts. They will kill this deal before the conference if they find it is too controversial.
Anyway, I read Jenny mccarthy going to the same thing ... she's been through the chelation thing so maybe they will cancel eachother out.

[mrsjerome]

Oh T Grimes and Roadracer if you would have looked at the Tribune’s

2nd part to this story I posted you would have read of the millions of dollars
In medical mal-practices suits against this guy. How this guy maintains his license
Is beyond this old gal’s mind. You can bet your yikas he ‘s not going to any conference

S!it this guy charges like
$6000 bucks a pop and you can bet he’s doing more than one popping with that needle
.
This is not like surgical castration where couple snips and all done.
If that’s not a red flag for anyone then is a sign of true desperation

[roadracer]

Oh T Grimes and Roadracer if you would have looked at the Tribune’s


Thanks, I read it, it does seem like this guy wont be a doctor much longer

Relax, it's not gonna happen. (Not to the extent you are thinking)
It already happend to to many kids, something like over 500, so it bothers me that that many parents put there kids threw something like this
I just have a hard time not letting these type of things bother me for the reasons I said in my above post.

[Aspigander]

Peg, it's not that I don't understand what you're saying. I know you're talking extreme cases here. But...

So let me just get this out of the way....What would you do to a dog that acted the way my daughter does? Right, euthanasia. So, don't go there.

I know you say don't go there, and I really mean no offense, but something in one of Roadracer's posts reminded me of the above quote. And I get to thinking, if we castrate people (even if it's for 'humanitarian' reasons), where will it end?

Will we make it legal to euthanize lower functioning autistics? I'm not talking in a punishment sort of way (I'm not talking about like capital punishment type thing), but rather will we start seeing it acceptable to say, well, nothing else works, even the castration, and they don't want to be the way they are, so maybe it would be kinder to put them down?

I say this because castration is something we routinely do to our pets. It is seen as the humane thing to do. We also put them down when we deem their quality of life to be poor. That is also seen as the humane thing to do.

So now we're castrating autistics (like we do to animals), hoping that would give them a better quality of life. If that fails...next step?

I know you're talking in very extreme cases. So would euthanasia be okay in very extreme cases?

[roadracer]

aspigander, people already do that, it happens all the time, more then you would ever believe. Humans put other humans down all the time and it is very legal, sometimes court orderd
Remember a couple years ago there was a women who they decided to 'put her down' by removing her feeding tube and letting her starve to death!!!! AND it was court ordered!!! How about the parents who refuse meds/treatment for there sick kids with cancer because of religous reasons, pretty much the same thing, like saying, "well, he had a good run, time to put him down" but with humans.

[peglem]

Peg, it's not that I don't understand what you're saying. I know you're talking extreme cases here. But...



I know you say don't go there, and I really mean no offense, but something in one of Roadracer's posts reminded me of the above quote. And I get to thinking, if we castrate people (even if it's for 'humanitarian' reasons), where will it end?

Will we make it legal to euthanize lower functioning autistics? I'm not talking in a punishment sort of way (I'm not talking about like capital punishment type thing), but rather will we start seeing it acceptable to say, well, nothing else works, even the castration, and they don't want to be the way they are, so maybe it would be kinder to put them down?

I say this because castration is something we routinely do to our pets. It is seen as the humane thing to do. We also put them down when we deem their quality of life to be poor. That is also seen as the humane thing to do.

So now we're castrating autistics (like we do to animals), hoping that would give them a better quality of life. If that fails...next step?

I know you're talking in very extreme cases. So would euthanasia be okay in very extreme cases?

If it were routine castration as a regular policy, for the purpose of preventing reproduction, I'd feel much differently. I don't think what these "doctors" are doing is a good thing or the right thing. I think they are making a lot of money off of desperate people and most likely causing great physical harm to their patients (or at least risking it). But the primary goal is not sterility, but mood stability(for lack of a better term). Chemical castration (I think) is not permanent like physical castration. You have to keep supplying the chemicals to maintain the effect. With an adult, at least, I believe it is reversible. In children, it most likely affects their overall development, so it is more dangerous. (its dangerous in adults as well, but wouldn't affect developmental progress). What you're talking about, castration and extermination of the mentally/physically disabled, was in fact public policy in Nazi Germany, and I appreciate the danger of society taking a turn in that direction.

I don't really know all the implications of this treatment, haven't heard of it until today. But, if it helps some people (and I don't know if there are cases where it is the only solution) who would otherwise end up in prisons or slobbering in the corner of a psych ward or killing the people they love...well I just don't think you should absolutely say never. I think it would be unethical to ban a treatment that may be the only hope for a few because it is not good for most. I think the way it has been used in the case of the article...definitely unethical, but that does not mean it is always unethical to use.

[Isabelle]

OMG these doctors are doing their best to make themselves useful....create the problem/disease, find the most outlandish treatment, market it well and they will come....

what a shame!!!! :mad:

so far that i know sterilization of the disabled is banned in canada, unless is through court order....yes, pedophiles had/have the choice of having their balls cut or given drugs and one way or other those "treatments" didn't work.... the only solution keeping them in jail for life.....

in relation to the autistic we are going backwards....

[Keggy]

I don't know if anybody said it or not, but this drug does not cause permanet castration.

Road.. you said they should be given the choice.. the people I refer to could not make that choice. They would say yes or no, but really have no idea what they were answering for.

Lisa.. thanks for sharing that.

[Keggy]

BTW... I wanted to add I am dead against medicating kids. I think it has to be the last resort for the institutionalized and extreemly violent child.

If taking this one drug could replace the antipsychotics and every other drug they feed them and keep them from hurting themselves and others.. I am all for it.

Unfortunatly some docs seem to just add more drugs rather then remove them.

[roadracer]

Just wondering why they force meds on people? why is it done, to people that "could not make that choice"?
Why do they do this? well because it is easier to drug them then to try to figure out what the problem is. It is simple as that, they dont want to spend the time or money to find other ways to help the person, so they pump them full of drugs, give them the 'chemical lobotomy" so they dont have to worry about them then.

Also is taking these drugs with all the side affects any better then what they are treating, probably not, the side affects of the drug are probably worse actually, but the side affects are easier for everyone else to deal with, so we make it easier for everyone else, not the person that is being druged. No problem is being solved here, no problem is being solved by using the chemical castration drug, it is just easier to give the kid the drug because it is easier for the parents to deal with side effects, dosent solve any of the problems and makes it worse for the kid, but who cares if after giving the drugs the person is easy to deal with? correct?

Psychiatry is the same as it ever was, there really has not been much progress in the way the people are treated, we just continually find new methods that people see as better treatment, when in reality it is the same treatment just using different methods to seem like we are treating people better.
Progress will come when we can start treating others with these problems like humans, like you would treat yourself and others, like you would treat your mother and father. We give people labels to determine what level of human they are and treat them according to that. Low functioning, we treat them as less of human and as more of there label, easy to treat a person bad then, you dont look at that person and see your mom or dad, why would you because this person is not human. I think it is about time we start treating everyone as equal. We should start seeing people in a new light. I dont know much about psychology or medicine, but I know enough to know the problem is in the way we see others

"Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think." Martin luther King
Time to end the "easy answers" and start really helping these people
(okay, I step down from my soapbox now)

[milivica]

I've been so busy I just have not had time to post. Carmen's having her sleep over, it's so awesome they're having a wonderful time. She's known this girl since first grade. At one point, four girls were in teh back yard, Carmen did GREAT, she did not freak about anything...not cause she was suppressing, but cause she was having so much fun she didn't care what they did or how.

But anyhow, I wanted to see how RR felt about what I'd said.

RR, I was really worried about how you would feel about my post. I was under the impression that as soon as you stopped administering the drug, the person returned to normal, I was posting based on that, and based on the idea that this would be an absolute last ditch effort to keep your child at home, and other children safe from his violence and/or sexual urges.

I feel bad you were so upset by what I posted, I hope you can try to imagine how it would feel to be in charge 24/7 of a someone who was just being himself, but by being himself he might permanently harm or kill himself and your other child...cause he is so angry, he just can't handle it. My son was dragging my (at the time) 5 year old daughter out of bed at night by her hair, telling her he was going to take a knife and kill us in our sleep, then all the animals, then her...what is the answer? If I close my eyes to sleep, what will he do? Does my 5 year old deserve those experiences and those memories? What would you do...remember, you cannot allow even a few SECONDS to pass without supervising them. You have to take one in the bathroom to shower, you can't even pee with the door closed you are on duty 24 hours a day. I'd stay up all night, sleep during the day when they were at school. Prior to school, I slept on the couch for two years, and jump out of a dead sleep to even a creek in the floor.

I was beyond exhausted. I couldn't do it anymore. Maybe a better parent could have. Maybe you could go for decades like that, I couldn't.

So I locked him in his room at night. And posted here in anguish and sobbing feeling as though I was treating him like an animal. I made sure there was not only a camera so I could see him in his room at all times on a tv in my room, and hear him, but baby monitor so he could hear me too. And his own toilet so he'd never have to hold it at night. Stuff to munch on and water in case he needed it. Plus all the animals in his room, which, at the time I had to keep behind wood and plexiglass doors I made so he wouldn't hurt them, but could still have company.

Mind you, due to his behavior, I already had several encounters with Children and Family Services, so had the very real threat of having not just him but both my children taken away, and depending upon what they said, my husband and I would be thrown in jail. Blowing away what little foothold we had on a 'family'. I'd pick him up from school, you could see the big handprint on the teacher's face from his slapping them. Blue bite marks, bruises, torn skin. If I did not figure out some way for him to stop doing that (mind you, I was not allowed to observe) there was a real threat, that he would be taken (from CFS) and then what, where would he be, what would be done to him, would some institution call me and say "We're sorry, but there's been an accident" cause they killed my kid.

Parents are responsible and accountable for their childrens behavior in the eyes of the law, if I could not control him, even when he was at school - that enables the law to take him away from us, and do what ever the want. What will his quality of life be then, in a facility with nt kids much more able to violate him than he is able to protect himself what so ever.

God my stomach is wrecked, allowing myself to recall this at all with such detail. And trust me, I'm leaving TONS out.

So, not sure if you were shocked or angry or serious, but you asked would I cut off his balls...like I said, I assumed the person went back to normal when you stopped the shots. If it was between castration and losing him forever, maybe I would. Most likely though, if things were that bad that I'd have to make a decision like that, I'd drive us both over a cliff, though I'd make sure he was asleep so he'd just wake up in Heaven. If his testosterone level was making him a continually sexually charged and violent person, and I believed he would have a far better quality of life with no balls, and that was the only option available (if it were 100 years ago), maybe I would make that decision for him if he could not. I cannot imagine anyone deciding, "yes, I would like to feel violent and horney all day every day".

Compared to many parents I know, we had it EASY. The choices for parents with severely autistic children are lousy at best. The choices for most people with severe autism are lousy at best.

You know this, yet don't volunteer to monitor and keep safe from himself and others, even one autistic. It might prevent the heartbreaking decision a parent would face, to resort to drugs. If you feel so strongly about this issue, maybe you should volunteer time with autistics and advice to their parents, who don't know what to do. I realize you did not 'create' these children, but their parents did not create their autism and just do not know what to do. Parents are only human, though most I know with autistic kids are in my opinion, super human. Do you have the right to judge when you are not willing to be an active part of alternative solutions? You of all people have far more to offer, than almost any 'expert' their parents will encounter. You quoted my fav, MLK Jr., you said "Rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half-baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think." Martin luther King
Time to end the "easy answers" and start really helping these people
(okay, I step down from my soapbox now)

Then help these people RR, you'd be wonderful.

Remember what I told you about my son dragging my daughter out of bed every night (took her a long time to tell me what she was enduring). If your dad was uncontrollably violent - but only when you were not supervising him. The only solution after years of trying everything you could, was this drug...or...to just hope your mom would survive his beatings and though he had no control over his temper, hopefully he wouldn't kill her someday. What would you do? Wait for him to kill her, so he could either be locked away with violent offenders...of would you allow doctors to cut his balls off, what would you choose? What would you choose for yourself, no balls or feeling angry and horney constantly. Thankfully, you will never have to make such choices, but honey, some parents do. Try not to judge them. I do not advocate drugs or medication, but don't know enough about each child, and their life at home, to judge their parents based on the article I read.

And yes, there are some parents who would give the drug cause their humping child embarrassed them, just cause you're the parent of an autistic kid doesn't exempt you from being selfish and stupid. I would never support that. But I've never met a group of such desperate selfless loving people in my life, as parents of autistic children. Just cause my son is happy now, I will never ever forget my heritage, parent of a severely autistic child. Trust me, there is no pain in the world, like seeing a child you love in pain....and that child and his needs creating pain for your other child.

So, all that having been said, it's completely fair that you disagree with me. Before I had kids, I would have thought any parent that even considered this was a selfish monster...but based on decisions I've made as a parent I now understand sometimes you make the most painful decisions out of some horrible combination of love and desperation. I would ask that you don't forever think of me negatively, cause I very much like you. This one topic you and I are at opposite ends on, is just one part in the entire person we both are.

And MrsJ, I'm sorry I am not outraged, the way I read the article, I felt this was a choice a parent with no choices left, could make to improve the life of their child, to give their child the ability to feel other than violent or horney all day every day.

Again, I'm not advocating anything, but I am no way going to judge a parent for this, before I've walked in their shoes.RR, you have the LUXURY of idealism, cause you are not yet a parent, let alone the parent of a child with needs beyond what you can cope with. The parents in the article, had children with issues and needs they could not cope with.

I hope to God I'm never faced with even having to consider something like this. Back when I used to catch Vincent ready to cut off his penis with a knife, cause when it got hard it freaked him out so badly, I just might have given him this shot, you betcha. Thankfully, it never came to that. Many of you might remember, I explained to him that his future children were 'in his balls' and if he cut all his man gear off, he'd kill his 'babies'. Which was when he asked in shock..."You mean I used to live in my dad's balls!!!!" I told him yes, as Carmen squealed hysterically...till told her, "What are you laughing at, where do you think you used to live".

There is a LOT that goes into decisions that loving parents make. This is not a black and white issue.

Love to you all,
Lisa

[Nikabee]

Thank you Lisa for saying what I couldn't find the words for. You did much better than I ever could. We have to remember that we don't live in an IDEAL world, where the best answers are always available to us. Ideally, we SHOULD treat the root cause, but here in the REAL world, we don't know what the root cause is - let alone how to treat it. We're all muddling through life, trying to make good decisions based on imperfect understanding.

Thankfully, our case isn't so extreme that I would consider something like that for my boy, but I also know that I've agreed to somethings that 'experts' suggested because I was desparate for help and I didn't know of anything else to do. Or, I've made decisions that I knew were bad - but the alternatives were way worse.

I've spent some time working in those 'warehouses' they call full-time special needs schools. There isn't anything I wouldn't do as a mom to keep my son out of one of those places (or something like them) and here with his family. So, I can't judge the decisions other parents make for that reason. We all have to make our own decisions and live our consciences.

I will thank God tonight that *that* isn't a decision I have to make.

[Aspigander]

Hey Mili, I'm just wondering, are the parents in that article really out of all other options? Wouldn't RDI be better? Granted, might not be economical for most (though I would think the drugs would be similarly costly), but that *does* treat the root problem, right?

I'm probably more frustrated with the experts promoting this drug than the parents buying into it, after all, we're pretty much taught to do what the "experts" say. It's just that, from my understanding of what I've read from you on this forum, RDI is aimed at the root cause, so it's not like there's no option out there, correct?

[roadracer]

Mili, I think you are missing my point, actually multiple points. I didn't mean to offend you and I was not mad or anything, you took way more out of what I said then what I actually said. Not sure you are getting my points

1 point I made in my reply to you, and others was supposed to be like, how far is to far? How far do we go before it is a human rights issue, how far will parents and doctors go for 'treatments'. It is not a line drawn in the sand that shows ethical versus unethical, one treatment like the lobotomy was done away with because it was determined to be way to wrong to treat people like that, it was a crime against those people. BUT using drugs to induce the same affect, doing the same thing, but with drugs, is perfectly fine!!!! why??? History repeats itself, one day we will look back and say that giving kids those type of drugs was a crime, was so wrong it is hard to believe, but the crazy part is that we will probably have a different treatment that does the exact same thing, just giving it a different name. How far is to far, if cutting off a kids arms or legs would cure there autism is that okay? My example of my parents beating me, that was a okay treatment???

A second point was, well to give a good example, Mili, you didn't go go to those lengths for 'treatment', you didn't drug your child into a vegetable state did you? You made the correct choices, and found solutions, you have RDI, you did what you needed to do to help your son, and deciding what is the right choices is never easy. I think of you as a good parent because you made the right choices. Am I correct on this?

I am not calling anyone here a bad parent because of the decisions they have made, I just think as a society we should move away from this sort of treatments, that is what my last post was more about. As a society to improve the way we treat one another this needs to be done, we need to move away from drugging people like this, finding solutions like the RDI and making those things accessible, on and on with the other things I said about to move forward.

Also the reason I am outspoken about this sort of stuff (I am also like this about politics, war, etc) is best summed up by your favorite, MLK when he said
"History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people."
and he also said
"He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it. He who accepts evil without protesting against it is really cooperating with it."
Maybe I just read to much MLK history, but I really believe in those, just because I have never been to war, does that mean I have no right to question it? So I am not a parent, so that means I should be silent about what I believe in? acording to MLK it would be as bad as the evil I am against.

SORRY FOR THE PEOPLE I OFFENDED, my intentions where not to offend anyone by starting this thread, just seems to be a common type of topic on this forum, so I fugured it would be okay to voice my opinions

[milivica]

I don't think you offended anyone, least of all me. Yes it sounds like I missed several of your points. And you should be able to voice your opinions for sure. I accept your feelings, but when you reacted the way you did to my feelings, I didn't want you to think I was a monster. Wanted to give you some insight, into why I said what I did. I tried to get you to imagine impossible decisions parents have to make, out of desperation and love...not a wish to zombie out their children. How after no answers, even crazy answers can seem sane.

Giving your child these kinds of drugs is definitely going too far, definitely beyond the child's human rights. And it is the horrible choice parents are left with too often. When it comes to autism, at least in my experience, 99% of the professionals don't know what to do and don't care to learn. The very few that do sincerely care, try to learn as best they can and still don't know what to do.

That's why I gave you the examples I did, about yourself, about your dad, trying to put you in the impossible decisions parents face. Reading them, can you see how lousy your options would be?

I did put my son on a drug, risperdal. He was 7. It was during the time I wrote about above when his sister was 5. I can't tell you how horrible I felt about it, both his dad and I. His sister was safe. I have a pic of them dancing together (him in a tutu) it was one of the most beautiful moments of his childhood. It killed me to put him on an antipsychotic, at such a tender age - I knew that could not be right or ethical - but seeing him enjoy life in a new way, that was it for me, I chose to keep him on. It was an extreme decision, I certainly felt I was violating him in some way, but for him it was also the answer...the only one left I had at the time after trying everything else I could of. It was a right and wrong decision, for different reasons.

I just didn't want you to think parents choose to zombie out their kids, don't know or care how it makes the child feel. The vast majority of parents see their child in some kind of pain, are obligated and responsible for their child's behavior, and are in a position that any decision they make will violate their child's rights....cause it's the only choices they have. Letting a child be consumed with anger and sexual feelings violates his rights too.

Seriously though, why don't you mentor an autistic in your community? I would have absolutely loved if Vince had a mentor, that had autism, and could have given me some insight, some hope, some alternatives. I know you have a LOT to offer. Think of what you could do for others.

[milivica]

Nickabee, I'm glad what I said resonated with you.

AspieG, I'm sure RDI would be a better alternative, but what if you don't realize it will help your child...what if you've never heard of it? What if you've heard of it, and don't understand that if you go through the steps in RDI, your child won't have autism anymore? It's been around since 1995, the year my son was born. I heard about it and tried it 3 years ago. Not because I thought it would work, I was sure it wouldn't. But as a parent, I just had to feel I tried everything I could.

If I'd been through a divorce or had to work full time, or had more kids or had to take care of an elderly parent, I would not have had the luxury of having the time to HOPE and TRY yet one more thing. If my own mental condition for which I take medication was not stable, I would not have tried. Not all parents have the blessings I did, and some have been so beaten down through the years with hope that never amounted to their child's happiness, it's hard to have any hope anymore, so you just accept your child as is and do the best you can to give your child a good life with what you got.

[Aspigander]

I have to say, you were able to go a lot farther than I think I could have. No offense intended to you or Peg or Pamster (or anyone else who has had children whose autism caused such severe problems), but if I had a kid like Vince or Allie or Jackie...I honestly think I'd be a terrible mother. Heck, I think I'd be a terrible mother to an NT. I'm so dependent on the mental blueprint and that would either keep the kid too restricted, or have me melting down all the time, you know what I mean?

That's okay though. I'm perfectly find with my kids having four legs and a tail. :)

[Prot]

I think Dr Geir and his son would have has a wail of time in Third Reich Germany c 1933-45. Heck they would have been positively salivating at the kind of stuff sociopaths like Mengele got up to.

Eugenicist f***kw**ts like these shouldn't be allowed anywhere near anything remotely medical or psychiatric.
Preferably they should be enjoying a long stay somewhere designed for the " criminally insane" :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad:

Aside from the odious morality of it ,it's expletive deleted expensive!

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=2404

[tgrimes]

It already happend to to many kids, something like over 500, .

please post link to source for this number. Everything I read says 50, and pretty sure this is mostly the hollywood crowd.

I know this tribune article sounds shocking, but there maybe some unknown reason for this slant by the author, just try to find it written like that by any other newspaper, i don't think you will.

If you really want to be worried about this, then worry about the hollywood endorsement of this, the vaccine activists, chelation, glutathion (sp?) injections even lance armstrong's involvement with the jenny and co camp! And don't forget the 'religion' that proliferates there too. The next miracle cure comes from the same place.

[roadracer]

please post link to source for this number. Everything I read says 50, and pretty sure this is mostly the hollywood crowd.
well it was the first post, link I posted. but to be correct myself it was 300 treated with 200 being tested, for some reason I just figured those 200 being tested would be getting the med after the testing was done. So it is 300, not sure where you seen only 50?, maybe I am reading things wrong? To quote,
The Geiers say they have probably treated 300 autistic children and a handful of adults with Lupron, and an additional 200 people are being tested.

I know this tribune article sounds shocking, but there maybe some unknown reason for this slant by the author, just try to find it written like that by any other newspaper, i don't think you will.
No, to me the tribune article does not sound as shocking as the other links posted, the messages of all the doctors who said this is junk science long before the tribune article was posted, but were ignored because no major news orginisation cared about it until now. If it was just a newspaper article I would have wounderd if the facts where correct, but when you have how many doctors steping up, some big name doctors, who have said it is junk science before the article was even made...

If you really want to be worried about this, then worry about the hollywood endorsement of this, the vaccine activists, chelation, glutathion (sp?) injections even lance armstrong's involvement with the jenny and co camp! And don't forget the 'religion' that proliferates there too. The next miracle cure comes from the same place.
I speak up about that type of stuff also (well the stuff I understand about)
What would the world be like if no one ever questioned anything, where would we be?
(also btw, I NEVER liked Lance Armstrong :p)

I am done posting in this thread because I have said everything I want to say about it and I feel like I am the bad guy here, I thought there would be a couple posts of people who agreed with me and that would be the end of the thread, I never would have guessed that it would turn into this, so controversial, this was worse thread then my RDI thread I started that time :o

[peglem]

I am done posting in this thread because I have said everything I want to say about it and I feel like I am the bad guy here, I thought there would be a couple posts of people who agreed with me and that would be the end of the thread, I never would have guessed that it would turn into this, so controversial, this was worse thread then my RDI thread I started that time
Sorry you feel like the bad guy, but I don't think others view it that way. You certainly have a right to voice your opinions here, and I think that right was respected by others, even if they disagree with you.
In fact, I don't completely disagree with you. I think there were actually two issues here:
1) The actions/practices of the particular doctors in the article, which I find reprehensible. And..
2) The issue of ever using this drug at all for autistic kids. I'm more uncertain about that...
At any rate, I'm glad you posted the article and I think all the discussion has been good. I had never heard of this being done before (don't worry, I'm not rushing out to give it a try) and was very interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on the matter.

[Pamster]

If you hadn't posted it roadracer I would have. I saw this link:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-na-autism24-2009may24,0,2754752.story

And would have posted that one with a bunch of mad faces too, that's what we're here for, to share ideas and outrage and joy over the good things our kids and loved ones teach us. That's right my son teaches me. I have learned so much about unconditional love from him. :)

I'm sorry this is happening, but honestly roadracer, we've seen worse. At least in my opinion worse, if I recall right it was in the UK. And no I can't find a link for it, wouldn't know what to search for, I tried and couldn't find the article but I found this:

http://books.google.com/books?id=7DYMcoskoMoC&pg=PA204&lpg=PA204&dq=Autism+Hysterectomy+to+prevent+menstruation&source=bl&ots=KOznbO09Y-&sig=IcK7zuwdaCNvphOBjEWP6DNc7oI&hl=en&ei=6YQaSseNE4vFtgfc2YDrDA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7

You can see that they wanted to do this to 'protect their daughter from her blood phobia' yet this is totally outrageous to DO to a innocent child IMO. :( I would never dream of using lupron with my son. I just can't believe how desperate some people can be. Even hyperbaric treatment has risks associated with it, but I feel its up to each family to weigh those risks.

[milivica]

I am done posting in this thread because I have said everything I want to say about it and I feel like I am the bad guy here, I thought there would be a couple posts of people who agreed with me and that would be the end of the thread, I never would have guessed that it would turn into this, so controversial, this was worse thread then my RDI thread I started that time :o

Like Peglem said, I liked reading all the different opinions. Just cause everyone didn't have the same opinion, doesn't mean it's a controversial or bad or negative thread. And this topic definitely belonged here. Maybe you just feel shocked cause you expected one thing, and it didn't happen that way?

Well, you sounded like you now regret posting what you did, as if you started a bad thing. Any feelings and opinions expressed here wasn't because of 'you' or a thread 'you' started so somehow 'you' are responsible for opinions that differ. You didn't start anything bad, or anything that turned bad. I hope you don't feel like that.

Lisa