My nt rather friendless daughter...

[milivica]

I don't get it.

She is nt, no doubt about it. Reads body language for sure, can make a friend...for about 5 minutes. Then it gets to 'sticky' for her, too much gray area, and the new friend is pretty much done with her.

Carmen is overall rather friendless, which is weird cause she is totally nt. She can get along great with overpowering people, or extremely shy polite people. Where she has to do all the giving, or gets to do all the directing.

The teachers and I are really stumped. It's like, she's a willful pre-puberty female times 10. Stubborn and full of 'rules' about things that don't matter, it's impossible for other kids to put up with her lobsidedness in terms of friendship. It's so weird, she's got a great heart, I can say nothing but great things about her, but I can see why other kids don't hang out with her. Nothing is smooth with her, it's always got to be so rigid...like she sucks at gray area even though she totally reads people. Heck, she's been my 'translator' for years.

I've heard other parents of here say their nt kid doesn't have many friends too. Environment, or heredity, or what? I feel like all the time and energy I put into her not being vengeful or mean is working against her. There's got to be lots of good kids out there, they seem to know how to find each other and have great strong bonds. Carmen is neither here nor there. Like I said, she's great with really overpowering wild adhd kind of kids, or, painfully shy kids.

Always hurts to see your kid want friends and not be able to have that. Makes it harder for her at school, girls hang in groups and pick with girls that are alone. The only reason she doesn't have it real bad is cause she has my permission to beat the crap out of anyone that touches her. It's like I invest all my sweat into Vince, and her social needs just have never been at the forefront it seems. Know what I mean?

So I'm sort of making her plunge in. We have two girls in the neighborhood, one is so tiny but is the bossy 'leader' and the other is her 'minion'. It's all we got around here, so I want to see her at least be able to hang out with them - I mean when I was younger true I had no friends but when I was at my dad's house to visit, I'd hang with my brothers who hung with ALL the kids on the block, I mean we just all HAD TO adjust to one another. There was the nose picker/eater, the kid who always had a pee circle on his pants, all of us had something 'wrong' with us, so, no one had anything wrong with us. Is this nonexistent now???

Anyhow, she has to discover how to gel with others, I know she can do it, and I'm pushing her to do just that. Doesn't have to be true blue life long friends, just gel with others. She also went through a long phase, where she just had no interest in nice people, they were 'boring' to her, as she put it. I get it that her brother is a wild rule breaker, but yeesh.

It's killing me she has no friends in her school. She has one on and off, but it's a boy, and they never hang out after school. Plus, omg this kid has it rough in a way Carmen cannot understand, cigarette burns on his arm from being abused, living with relatives when parent gets back on substance addiction, back and forth, live here live there...you get the picture. He is the scape goat for the whole school...Carmen stuck up for him one day, but his social skills are even worse than hers, so they fight more than they get along. Though I love this kid to pieces, they don't have the bond I want to see her form with her peers. He's soooooooo well intentioned, but more hyper than Vince...I invited him to Vincent's birthday, it was hilarious, dh had to get on an elevator with him, the kid immediately hit every button so it stopped on each floor all the way down, plus he had cake and pop aside from what is clearly the worst case of adhd on the planet...by the time dh got back to the room he was like, "omg that was harder than a full day at work". Anyhow, their at school on/off friendship then leads to teasing from other kids about them 'going out'.

Anyhow, just once again going over what the heck is up with Carmen and her not having meaningful friendships, casual friendships, at school.

Got off topic a bit about that boy she goes to school with. I mean, what is it that is so satisfying about destroying someones heart and spirit I'll never know. I didn't do that as a kid, don't do it as an adult. I get the theory of knocking someone down to build yourself up, but it makes me feel worse to make someone feel like crap, not better. Always has. Not to sound stuck up but I'm not looking to change that part of myself either.

So, anyone else want to share about nt kids that just can't get the friendship thing down.

Lisa

[tgrimes]

All I can say is don't throw a birthday party :( Last time i did that to my Carter, knowing he had just a few friends at school, and only one of the kids showed up plus the teacher, I think because she didn't want him to be alone so she brought her kids. (So sweet! :))
Anyway, about what to do about it, I would be wary to push, then there might be an unintended message sent by 'pushing.'
I think all of this depends on if she is bothered by it , does she say things?

[Crazy Cat Lady]

Do you live in a town that's kind of snobby? The downside of the "perfect suburb" is that kids who don't fit "the mold" may have huge social emoitional issues.
How old is she? One thing that really helped me as a teen, was attending a mainsstream all girls camp in NH. It taught me so much about love and friendship that I would reccomend it to any girl having social issues. I'm still in touch with a lot of people from there....I still remember crying myself to sleep the last night I was ever on the island.
http://campnokomis.org/

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I had the same question as Grimey...is she bothered by it. This may be the way SHE likes it. You've raised her to be strong and smart about people, and let's face it, HS girls are petty and mean, I wouldn't want to hang out with them either! Could just be her choice.

If not, if this is bothering her, I think I'd be inclined to get her involved in an activity, not sure if it should be one at school to maybe 'click' with some kids there, or outside of school...completely different...probably something to ask her. I bet her interests are just way different than regular HS girl stuff...she's WAY more grounded than the 'typical' HS girl, ya know...

I might be wrong, but couldn't imagine her being interested in cheerleading or pep sqaud or whatever...but maybe school paper or something instread?

Now, as for 'nt'....given genetic conditions, I would reconsider the possibility that your assessment may not be accurate...but only if it seems like she is 'struggling' in this area.

ADHD has as much of a wide range as we've seen here with ASDs. And Hyper is NOT always a part of it...there is:

ADHD (inattentive) these are the kids that lose track of everything, 'forget their heads if they are not attached' are smart, but just miss out on a lot and tend to feel rejected quite often because they 'miss the bus' and blame everything & everyone else for it...they don't quite 'get' how they get the '$hit end of the stick' so often because they don't/can't control the things that lead up to their 'losses.'

ADHD (impulsive) this is likely her little friends diag...and the way you've implied ADHD is above.

ADHD (combined) this is what is implies...flaky and full of energy...these are the class clowns...they make friends because they are funny or whatever...they joke to cover up their 'short-comings'

Anxiety is generally a part of all of these, and often is producing it's own symptoms that can exasporate or confuse the others. I'd be willing to bet that with her friend, his anxiety is magnifying his hyperactivty (based on the things you mentioned about his family life)...and your description of him.

I'm not at all saying that Carmen IS ADHD of some form, just noticed that you might not have a full picture of it.

So I have not clue...but I do remember that we had a conversation similar to this a while back...and it had a lot to do with 'privacy' or 'guardedness' something about siblings of ASDers needing to 'protect' themselves from what they perceived as imminant disapproval once someone gets 'close-enough' to see the ASD reality. And also, we talked about how all of that has had an influence on the 'other kids' in the family, how it has shaped &/or distorted 'typical' development for them. Do you think this could have anything to do with her 'social skills'?

[peglem]

I think you should try getting her involved in something that interests her outside of the school environment, where she can meet other girls who don't know her yet. As, you know, shared experiences and working toward a common goal is what builds relationships.
The reason I suggest outside of school, is that she already has a reputation there for "hanging with the weirdos." You know I don't mean that in a disparaging way...its just that socially, the other kids have mentally paired her with the misfits, because, God bless her, she's reached out to them. Middle school is the most awkward time socially. I always felt myself that everybody else had some secret to finding the group they belonged in...nobody told me the secret. I was the painfully shy kid.

Part of the problem, I suspect is that, thanks to her brother, she's a bit more, not necessarily mature, than the other kids, but way farther along in teasing out what is really important in life and establishing core values.

[milivica]

Peglem, yeah, it's like she's got the 'core values' down beyond her years. But the light interactions...the playful stuff that begins a game between kids, for her, is dead serious...someone takes her candy or book and says "Nah Nah" it's war! But when someone does something that should be war, she laughs. She easily gets overwhelmed and gets totally wild, tells me that she acts crazy and even while she's doing it she wants to stop but can't seem to, aka, she makes a fool out of herself.

Kristen, she does have attention deficit for sure, but not hyperactivity.

Grimes, I know what you mean about not pushing, but I do want her to try and am tellng her to at least OBSERVE others, think about what each is thinking and what each is feeling. She totally reads intention and body language, she needs to get to work on piecing it all together, all those discoveries other kids make so that social decisions can be made moment by moment quickly, smoothy.

Crazy Cat Lady, yeah it is a snobby area...the suburbs of Madison. But I see all kinds hanging out with all kinds class and color wise.

I've joined her in Girl Scouts, that was a disaster cause of the moms! Now she's in the special need girl scouts troop and can relax and have a blast there...but again, no friendships to take outside the scouting room. I could care less weather someone is asd or ld or nt or WHATEVER, just want her to have others to share the simple things with.

In the summer she joins this Jewish Camp, omg it's so wonderful I've asked her every summer if she wants to be Jewish. The counselors actually practice what they preach, every one of them...dunno if that's common with Jewish folks but that's a new one to me when it comes to religion (practicing what you preach). But once again, even in the relative safety of NICE kids, and nice adults, it's like she's always alone, can't seem to swing into the rhythm already in progress, sort of storms in like a social Godzilla.

She was in drama club recently and enjoyed that, but yet again...it just broke my heart and my friend who came to see her with me saw the same thing...Carmen was supposed to be a duckling named feather...there were 4 girl ducklings. The entire TWO HOUR play, Carmen was a couple feet away from the group of three duckings who seemlessly interacted with one another continually...no awkwardness or clunkiness, just smooth give and take. It's like Carmen is the baby swan in the middle of all ducklings.

I mean the good thing is, she does have me to talk to, she can and does tell me everything. Her fears, her shame, her wishes, I'm so glad she has me for that.

I will say even when kids do like her and seek her as a playmate, poof she's not interested. There's something very boring to her about a kid that just up and likes her. Ugh!

Yesterday I made a play date for her with this boy she's gotten along with forever, my friend's son. He's extremely easy going, she had him playing this game on the computer for girls that sets you up on a date...so of course every date he got was with a boy and she'd laugh her brains out and he'd pretend to beat her up. His mom and I are best friends, she's a fantastic lady, I've learned so much from her about parenting even though she's 10 years younger than me. He's coming over today too.

There is one other girl she gets along with well too, think I'll call today and see if she wants to stay overnight. This girl, omg, she gets along with EVERYONE. She's one of those girls who knows how to gel with everyone, she'd never pick on anyone or be mean and would chastise anyone that would. She gets along with 'good' kids regardless of class or whatever. I really like her. She's and my daughter have known each other since first grade, but she moved away some years ago, but once a year they see each other. Her mom and I crack each other up, she's got a cleaning ocd, and I have a, hmmm, maybe a procrastination ocd. Anyhow, she's a very strict mom from Jamaica, not afraid to discipline, old school.

What she does that I can learn from, is she expects her daughter to please her. Where as I try to please my kids and see them happy....I think a big part of my kids problems is me wanting to see them happy is not good for them, a kid has to seek ways to make themselves happy to really be happy. Dunno if I'm explaining that right. This mom never drives herself nuts over her kid being happy or not, and her kid is always happy! She adjusts to whatever she needs to adjust to moment by moment, and finds fun in every situation. Sometimes I feel like my kids would complain even if we had a carnival in our back yard...actually I'm sure they would.

You know, maybe I'm just in one of those 'all the mistakes I've made' phases. Did I ruin my kids chances for happiness by being so overboard trying to make them happy.

One more thing, that was a really good point about Carmen already being kind of labeled or marked at school, so that not being the best place for her to find friendships. She did something at school yesterday I was darn proud of. The school scape goat went to sit next to a boy he likes, but, the girlfriend of the boy plopped herself between them before the scape goat could sit down, and told him to go away and said all this hurtful stuff about no one wanting him at the table and not to come back. The scape goat went off crying, he cracked. Carmen stood up and yelled at the whole table! She said, "What's he supposed to do now? Why would you do that, you know he's got no where else to sit, you're such a bunch of @ssholes". I just kind of sat there stunned when she told me. Told her it took some guts to ball out a whole table. Dunno if I want to say too much about it, I think it sure took nerve! I'm proud of her, worried about her, but I don't think she was out of line.

Vince who goes to the same school, later told me the boy came up to him crying, saying first they were teasing him that he was 'gay' cause of wanting to sit by another boy, but now they're teasing him that he and Carmen are girlfriend/boyfriend. So for all I know, this boy might shun Carmen now even though she stuck up for him. Carmen did say that 1/2 the school is intentionally mean to him, and 1/2 the school doesn't much like him but isn't mean to him...I told her to start making friends in the not mean half.

Ok I'm just a rambling woman today...better go. Thanks for letting me think out loud here.
Lisa

[callyflower]

My dd has the same issue. No friends from school. Off by herself. She's just "too odd" to fit in for more than a few sentences.

I have her on a swim team. She is fairly well accepted there, and definitely respected as a swimmer. They all get excited and say "hi" when she shows up and miss her if she's absent. Still, nothing outside of swim time.

In our case, however, she does have ONE TRUE FRIEND. We met way back when my dd and the friend were in La Leche League (support group for breastfeeding moms)! They've grown up with play dates from the sandbox on and now have sleepovers, play dates, long rambling phone convos, have gone through the death of the friend's mom 2years ago, etc. The friend accepts her, as she's always known her. I have no doubt they would NOT be friends if that hadn't been the case.

A few years ago a psychologist told me that a kid needs 3 things to really "successfully navigate the teenage years:"
1. At least one thing they are REALLY good at doing, so they can take pride in accomplishments.
2. Parents who are involved and care.
3. At least one friend.

I hope it's enough in our case...

We take that one friend so seriously. We would likely be pulling up and moving to a more swim friendly town for my daughter as she shows so much potential in that area if not for the friend. We feel it's THAT important.

My heart aches for both you and your dd, Mili. I hope she can make a connection very soon.

Cally

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

You didn't answer the question about whether this bothers her, or whether she struggles to build friendships.

Frankly, I think she probably isn't much interested in these fools! But that doesn't necessarily mean that she isn't lonely for a good friend.

I think if that is true, Pegs is right, particularly in light of what you just mentioned, get her involved in something outside of school. I wonder if a community service type group would motivate her and give her some more commonalities with the other kids there. With the summer coming up, I'm sure there are loads of programs that she could join..like those 'story-time' type activities at the local library for little kids...or maybe even a church group that checks on the elderly...something like that, that has more 'value' to it, but will also offer the potential of other more 'mature' kids her age???

[peglem]

I'm wondering also, if she might do well with a "siblings of autism" group, since those kids may well have developed similar values a bit sooner than others, as well.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, something I forgot to mention in my last post...

First, sorry for forgetting that she is in MS...for some reason I picture her as Vince's older sister, even though I know she is not, I think just because of her 'maturity.' Anyhoo...I always put her in HS...she is clearly beyond her years in that respect! Sorry...

Second, ADHD kids have a REALLY hard time with friendships as a general rule. Some of it has to do with 'missing' non-verbal cues, some of it has to do with the 'other' behaviors being not so 'attractive' to others (forgetfulness, hyperactivity, impulsivity, moodiness, etc), and some of it has to do with self-esteem.

There is apparently this really harsh battle that goes on inside these kids...a horrible feeling of failure...which leads to a real belief that they are not worthy of a lot.

Is it possible that when someone befriends Carmen that she thinks they are lying or teasing or being fake or whatever, because she just doesn't feel deserving? So rejects them first?

Like, it's safe to go with the 'misfits' they won't reject her when they get to know the 'true' Carmen?

A lot of the people I've chatted with have this idea that they are 'faking' their way through life, just frauds, because they themselves have little pride or self-esteem, just figure if others approve of them or something they've done, that in reality they've managed to 'pull the wool over this person's eyes'...

It's sad to hear some of the things these people think and feel...especially kids that are in school now and subjected to peer-pressure and abnoxious teenage behavior. But it's also been VERY handy for me to understand what's going on with Coley. If you think this could be part of the problem, or if you'd like to see some of the conversations there...or even post this very dilemma (either in the parents section or the kids section)...here is the link:

http://www.addforums.com/forums/index.php

[milivica]

Peg, she wasn't able to make friends there either!!!! Of all places, you'd think she'd be a shoe in at sibs of kids with autism.

Cally, maybe I just need to be much more proactive about getting her together with the two friends she does get along with well...though one is a boy, so there are just things that can't be shared as well as things I don't want to be shared, lol. I did already set up time this weekend for her friend that is just a great kid. She is just really 'balanced' for lack of a better word. She knows who she is, is balanced around wild or shy kids, she's just always herself. Carmen more or less decides 'who' she is once she sees how the other kid's temperment runs.

Kristen, it bothers her terribly, she talks to me about it a lot. She tries to make friends all the time but just doesn't seem to know how to ease her way in, so tends to wander off by herself especially at lunch...however she has no out anymore at lunch and must sit at a table with the kids, and cripe since she has no 'group' tends to get comments picking on minor crap. Once in a while someone actually sticks up for her, which is great.

She's interested in being friends with a few different kids, she seems to almost 'target' certain girls she really likes and considers both 'cool' and 'nice'. If she wasn't interested in having friends I'd be concerned, but not heartbroken for her. In some ways, I do see a lot of heartache she avoids by not being in friendships, but that's not a good way to avoid hurt, cause of all the joy you also avoid. She is in a great camp this summer, I mean the kids there are just wonderful overall mostly because of the counselors setting such a great example I think. She volunteers and that community garden with me, and will be working in her biggest area of interest...as a mother's helper for 4 and 6 year old girls. She is really at her best with little ones, cause she's lonely it fills that void, the roles are clear and she's glad to be the grown one that sets a good example. She has tons of energy and patience, and doesn't have to worry about the 'peer acceptance' thing cause these girls adore her already.

[moose53]

Two things, Lisa:

First, *I* was what you considered to be "NT" when I was a kid (under 20 or so) -- ended up getting diagnosed with borderline personality disorder in my late 20s (after my younger brother's suicide). She might not be "NT". You might just 'think' she is when you compare her to your son and to yourself.

Two, you cannot really be a therapist for anyone in your family. If she's got 'issues' you SURE AIN'T gonna be the one to straighten them issues out http://www.millan.net/minimations/smileys/biggrin.gif. Voice-of-experience talking here relative to my now 40-year-old son. Hard as it is, they gotta figure it out on their own. Someone further up in the conversation (I can't backup and type at the same time :D ) said that maybe she was 'OK' with it. I know from my own son (who is I suspect on the spectrum; but, has never been diagnosed) that when he decided that he was not OK, he was the one to fix things. Some things just got fixed by virtue of time and experience.

Much as we want to make the path easier for our kids so that they don't have to go through the same sorts of hell that we did, we can't really do that. They HAVE TO see how their own experience fits together with their history. Our lives are like zigsaw puzzles -- oh yeah, this piece goes here; this piece goes there; when I finish this piece it goes somewhere else. If we don't finish the piece of the puzzle ourself then we don't really understand how it all fits together.

I was a very, very proper, smart, intelligent little girl who knew (with all her being) that something was wrong with her brother. He was only 11 months younger than me. We were like twins. We could finish each other's sentences. We looked alike. I TOOK CARE of him. In my head, I was IN CHARGE of him.

Your girl might have some of the sorts of responsibilities going on it here head that make her have some of the same sorts of feelings. She's never gonna fit into NT-land because she doesn't belong there. What's gonna bring her joy and fulfillment and comfort in her life is to continue to take care of people. She needs to learn how to balance taking of care of others with taking care of herself. Maybe if she were to get involved with kids that had some of the same interests as her -- maybe volunteering at a homeless shelter or visiting kids in the children's hospital or making toys and blankies for kids in the children's hospital, that might help her "fit in". What's gonna bring her together with other people is common interests.

I was just looking at your last paragraph, which is the only one that I can see at the same time that I write this. She might benefit from some sort of group therapy 'thingy' that's made up of similar kids (young but with a mature attitude and a feeling of 'responsibility for everything'). She needs to learn that she can give up being "the responsible one" -- or if not give it up, at least share the responsibility -- so that she has time for *ME*. That's what I didn't know how to do after I lost my brother -- take care of *ME*.


She's interested in being friends with a few different kids, she seems to almost 'target' certain girls she really likes and considers both 'cool' and 'nice'. If she wasn't interested in having friends I'd be concerned, but not heartbroken for her. In some ways, I do see a lot of heartache she avoids by not being in friendships, but that's not a good way to avoid hurt, cause of all the joy you also avoid. She is in a great camp this summer, I mean the kids there are just wonderful overall mostly because of the counselors setting such a great example I think. She volunteers and that community garden with me, and will be working in her biggest area of interest...as a mother's helper for 4 and 6 year old girls. She is really at her best with little ones, cause she's lonely it fills that void, the roles are clear and she's glad to be the grown one that sets a good example. She has tons of energy and patience, and doesn't have to worry about the 'peer acceptance' thing cause these girls adore her already.


Lisa, in some ways I think you're right to worry. But, I think the concern should not be that she's NT and "fits in" with other NTs -- it should more be that she's "too responsible" and that interferes with THE POSSIBILITIES.

BIG HUGS (and love).

Barb

[lisa6wks]

Lisa,
For what it's worth, I agree with Barb. I was a caregiver and still am. I had very few friends, if any and really don't have any now, but my husband, a situation I am quite content with. I guess you could say I never really fit in with the other kids, none of them had the same life experiences I had, and I knew it.

I am happy with my husband, my kids, and my teaching job, so it can all turn out all right.

Lisa

[tgrimes]

Of all places, you'd think she'd be a shoe in at sibs of kids with autism.

.

They have this? I hate to ask, but was it like 'pitiful' (for lack of a better word?) Now I remember back in KDG Carter's teacher kept encouraging him to talk to her about his problems with his older brother, because she had a MR sister, and she always 'knew how he must feel..' Ugh, I used to hate that, she had him feeling so crappy about it so many times when I don't even think he was thinking about it to begin with!

[milivica]

Barb, I was nodding at so so much of what you wrote. I never thought of her as a big 'care giver' but actually that is when she is at her best. But again, I think it's about her having a well defined role, and not having to do that delicate give and take in nt-land. And certainly, I might be missing something considering I have only Vince to compare to her.

Lisa, thanks for saying what you said.

Today Carmen had her play date with her good good friend, who is the pillar of patience and the most laid back kid ever...which is why they go together well. They played pool in the garage...Carmen gloated when she did well, sulked when he did well, she had a huuuuge advantage cause he struggled to even hit the cue ball at all let alone aim it, plus is in a chair so has trouble reaching it all. Anyhow, seeing this, I said "Hey, you guys ever play hand pool, you just roll the ball with your hand" and Carmen amped out, "That's not fair, that's not how to play..." etc etc. She completely lost the joy of having her friend over, and needed to win. This is how she acts even when there is no game being played, as if she's trying to 'win', win what I dunno.

After 2 games, I pulled her aside, and told her not to forget what really matters. I tried to (facially) show my displeasure, then it was like a switch went on for her, and poof she was herself again. Giving him extra shots, not caring who got what ball in or whatnot. She was fine with variations and even fine when he cheated (he's a stinker!) and laughed about it, then did the same cheat as he did till they wound up shoving all the balls in laughing. THAT is what I want for her, a fun time, a flexible fun laugh sharing time. They decided to watch a movie...she didn't too much want to but when he said he did, she was able to WHAM just shift and say "Okay" and even let him pick the movie. This is Carmen at her best. I'm starting to think, I've interfered so much in her social encounters, trying to always make everything fair, she just needs a lot of practice putting all the jigsaw pieces together for HERSELF. Like Barb was saying.

Anyhow, I was just beyond thrilled that they were SHARING FUN together. Still trying to get a grip on what the initial attitude was about. So I played a little pool and darts in the garage with her, I said for her to pretend I was another kid, any kid. Sure enough, she once again started out in *puha mode (*pickle up her arse). It's like, I felt I had to make myself lose or she'd freak. I told her so, told her I loved just playing with her, and could care less if I won, asked her if she knew what was going on, why she was so INTENSE. Again, she was able to snap out of it, but this time, she sort of just went wild. She was whipping the plastic tip darts so hard they were sticking in the drywall. I stayed calm, took me about 10 minutes of being super as declarative and polite as I could be, finally she wasn't like a cut electric wire bouncing wildly. When things were smooth, I told spotlighted all the stuff I enjoyed that we did. I went inside, needed to do a thing or two.

Then, to my shock, after her friend left, low and behold this girl that lives kiddie corner of us, is in our back yard with Carmen. They hung out for like 2 hours, she is Carmen's age, has lived there for months...I didn't realize it. I knew there was some girl there, but didn't know it was a classmate she sits next to half the day! Carmen and her must have had a good time, she wants to stay over sometime. The girl seemed nice enough, was freaked by some of our animals...Vince wound up basically insulting her and irritating her (he was jealous and I had the 'nerve' to try and take a phone call so wasn't attending to his every need). She mentioned to Carmen that she loved it when she yelled at this whole group of kids at a lunch table yesterday that were cruel to the kid who is the school scape goat.

The friend she had since first grade, who would be an excellent peer example or role model for her, is going to stay over Sunday night. I love this kid, you can't shake her up. She's right in the middle, nice but not a butt kisser or push over, not 'popular' or unpopular, just totally in the middle. Has lots of friendships including Carmen, she just gets along with all people. She'd never bully anyone, but knows how not to be bullied either.

So, I feel a slight 'Whew', like hopefully, this is the first day, of Carmen building her own life, without so much of my interfering, even if it's with my good intentions. I could care less if she's nt or her friends are nt, etc... I just want her to be able to gel in this world, sort of like Forrest Gump! He may not have been 'typical', so what, the way he was able to gel with people, find HIS place in this world, his super great outlook when people were crappy and they way he didn't hate or blame himself. I considered him to have a completely successful life, despite all the hurt. I know it's lame to compare life to tv, but at least I didn't compare it to a box of chocolates, lol.

[milivica]

They have this? I hate to ask, but was it like 'pitiful' (for lack of a better word?) Now I remember back in KDG Carter's teacher kept encouraging him to talk to her about his problems with his older brother, because she had a MR sister, and she always 'knew how he must feel..' Ugh, I used to hate that, she had him feeling so crappy about it so many times when I don't even think he was thinking about it to begin with!

Hee hee, I know the 'pitiful' kind of thing you mean. No it was great, they had games and food and just a fun day to socialize. No one had to talk about anything, it was just known that everyone there had a sib with autism. If you felt like it, during the snacks or games or activities you could chat with a peer and if something came up about autism and your sib, fine. But the focus was just a fun day.

[peglem]

So, I feel a slight 'Whew', like hopefully, this is the first day, of Carmen building her own life, without so much of my interfering, even if it's with my good intentions. I could care less if she's nt or her friends are nt, etc... I just want her to be able to gel in this world, sort of like Forrest Gump! He may not have been 'typical', so what, the way he was able to gel with people, find HIS place in this world, his super great outlook when people were crappy and they way he didn't hate or blame himself. I considered him to have a completely successful life, despite all the hurt. I know it's lame to compare life to tv, but at least I didn't compare it to a box of chocolates, lol.

Funny!

Good for Carmen, letting go of control. Nice.

Just wanted to say that if you get a chance READ Forest Gump. He is much more autistic in the book, and it is hilarious...I mean the kind of hilarious that just has you splitting a gut til tears roll down your face. The movie left out many things from the book, so you won't already know how things turn out in the book (different from the movie, actually).

[roadracer]

Forrest Gump is the best movie ever!!!! I know people watched it and thought it was so funny and could only see the humor in it and not the message. The book is great also, but I never get tired of watching the movie, the message is so true.

[peglem]

They have this? I hate to ask, but was it like 'pitiful' (for lack of a better word?) Now I remember back in KDG Carter's teacher kept encouraging him to talk to her about his problems with his older brother, because she had a MR sister, and she always 'knew how he must feel..' Ugh, I used to hate that, she had him feeling so crappy about it so many times when I don't even think he was thinking about it to begin with!

My NT daughters had a few teachers like that...I'm afraid i kinda let them use that...late homework assignments and what not. Nice for the autism to be an advantage sometimes!

[Keggy]

From what I have seen this is typical of girls as they get older. Can't begin to count how many moms I know who told me the exact same thing all through middle and high school
It seems to me the best friends they can make are with boys.

[milivica]

Peg, HA! You're so bad, I love it.

Ya know, the more I think out loud here, the more I type and get all of your feedback, the more I realize it's not so much the friendless issue that gets me. It's what Carmen does to herself...the freaking out over nothing, getting sooooo hung up on things that don't matter. All the times when she has every opportunity for joy yet is her own worst enemy. No one can respect someone that freaks out over nothing and goes wild and out of control with excitement to the point of being obnoxious. Carmen does this constantly...unless she has a 'role' like the older one so a caregiver.

When I brought up Forrest Gump, I wasn't sure anyone would know what I meant....like why would you want your kid to be Forrest Gump. But I think you all get what I'm saying, I want my kid to have his ability to have these great outlooks yet be caring to others, caring to himself...not a self hater, not hating others. Just this great wonderful balance he had despite all the hurt in his life.

So now that I think about it, her lack of 'whatever' it would be called, *Gumpitude*, that drives others away ultimately making herself unhappy, that's what my real deal is. We need to be able to connect in this world, in our own way. She spends too much time not connecting in any way. I mean you just have to learn to gel with your peers, in a way that works for you and them. Like when Forrest first asked Jenny, it could have been all over when she said, 'Are you stupid or something'. But he said 'Stupid is as stupid does' and they were fast friends from then on. They were so very different, but, found ways to gel that worked for him and her both.

I think I should get the book, thanks for the idea Peg. I'll tell you one thing, hands down without a doubt, his mom would be my role model if she were a real person. She did the greatest job ever, guiding him to become who he was meant to be.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, I'm not sure if you missed my post (#10)...we were posting at roughly the same time...or if you thought it was a bunch of hooey...

either way, your last post makes me want to just repeat it ...because it does sound like her 'reactions' are very ADHDish.

[milivica]

I did miss that, thanks.

Well I'm darn sure Carmen has attention deficit, I've been told so by this neuro since she was 4. There have been times I've considered meds, did try them, but they did not make a significant difference for her that merited her taking them - so though she seems very ADD maybe it's something else. But then, who doesn't have 'something'!

I understand she has issues that make life harder for her. I just want to see her using what she's GOT more, and making all she does have going for her stronger and stronger. I know it takes more effort for her, but I know she can do it. Finding her own way, despite anything that makes it harder be it adhd or whatnot. She does have enough going for her, that she must try and build on that. She just really needs a lot more practice at taking in all the information she gets from others, and processing it all in a way that works for both her and the other person.

As she sees it sometimes, others get to do what ever they want and say what ever they want all the time. I'd like to see her sloooow down and reflect a little more 'during' interactions, not always after, so she can use that great wonderful smart brain of hers for a little 'foreshadowing' based on reflecting on her past experiences.

I see her squandering all she does have, and her shortcomings are getting the best of her, that's what I'm pushing for her to change. She needs more of that 'Gumpitude'.

[peglem]

So, the caregiver role is the interaction tha she has the most practice with...When that breaks down, she's not sure what to do. Is that right?

I remember, at that age (I was by no means a social butterfly), most girls my age were all giggly over boys or talking about clothes or celebrities(or pointing out why so & so was a weirdo)...I just had no interest in those things, so had no experience with them and really didn't know how to respond. I kinda hung out with the other "bookworms" and we built our own little socially maladjusted group.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, it helps to know that the "H" in ADHD has more to do with neural processing than physical actions. Often the ADHDer is off onto another topic in their mind while something is occuring...so she may not be 'capturing' the full situation, and therfore leaps to conclusions and things.

Other people having things easier, or life dealing them a lousy hand is a pretty consistent philosphy for ADHDers.

You know there is no way I'm going to sit here and tell you that the answer is meds...c'mon you know me better than that, doncha?

Not saying it's not the answer either...but understanding her neurology, the same way you understand Vince's might help you reach those goals.

Right now Coley is strattling both these worlds, and I've learned a great deal from the people in that group, just as I have here.

I have those same goals for Coley. He has a terrible time making friends too. He has a terrible time seeing the others perspective...it's always not fair...and he rarely sees that people make WAY more consessions for him than he does for others.

I can see both worlds in that, although I'm sure you can see the ASD in it clearly...I bet you can't see the ADHD in it. This is what I'm trying to say.

Although I also think it's important to keep Keggy's point in the forefront of your mind too...I remember hating most of the girls while growing up...had WAY more success with the boys too...no mixed or confusing signals or petty crap. Sure it bothered me that I didn't have too many girl friends...but never found comfort in it...the few girl frinds that I did make back then are still friends of mine today...I'm sure that's at least part of the what is going on with her.

[milivica]

I kinda hung out with the other "bookworms" and we built our own little socially maladjusted group.

I'd love it if she did that, that'd be great! She drives the 'socially maladjusted' group nuts too.

Kristen, Vince has adhd, Carmen and I do too. Carmen and I have more 'mental' adhd, Vincent is mental and physical and compared to him, Carmen and I look very nt. Know what I mean?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

You do know that ADHD is a neurological disability right?

From what you said above it sounds like you & Carmen have ADHD (inattentive type) and Vince has impulsive or combined.

There are loads of therapies and things that can help. And you'd be shocked or maybe not at how much of it is consistent with RDI.

[tgrimes]

I saw on the other thread that she had a sleepover. How did it go? Fun I hope!

[milivica]

You do know that ADHD is a neurological disability right?

From what you said above it sounds like you & Carmen have ADHD (inattentive type) and Vince has impulsive or combined.

There are loads of therapies and things that can help. And you'd be shocked or maybe not at how much of it is consistent with RDI.

Oh, I thought these days being nt was a disability. :D Yeah I know it's neurological. And yes RDI absolutely helps the neurology that makes a person adhd. How'd you know that! Yeah, by the time Vince is through Stage 3 in RDI, we hope to finally wean him off the last med, Strattera for adhd.


I saw on the other thread that she had a sleepover. How did it go? Fun I hope!
Thanks for asking Grimes,

The sleepover went great. It was so awesome, during the early evening when she stayed over, a new girl that moved on the block and sits next to Carmen during some classes at school, also came over. As well as a girl down the block (Vince goes to their house, the mom there is very open and welcoming to him) with her 2 1/2 year old sister. So, we had 4 girls that were 10 thru 12 and one 2 1/2 year old all playing together, it was soooooooooo lovely. Reminded me of when I was little, everyone just had to play with everyone, big and little all together. (I know this of course cause I'd notice my peers playing whilst I dug my holes all day) At one point all 5 were on the trampoline, jumping nicely together, no wild or rough stuff, all so 'petite' and girly, all the big girls sort of forming a 'team' to nurture the little one.

The new neighbor girl came over the next morning so the three of them played more. Then she came over again at night and dh and Carmen and her and her dad played basketball at the court across the street at the park. Dh and her dad were on one team, the girls on the other...they said the girls won. Hee hee. Her dad seems like a real nice down to earth guy. He's divorced, but he and his ex apparently get along very very well for the kids sake, even making sure they lived nearby one another and in the same school district, so the kids can live with both parents. The girl so far, seems very shy and very sweet. She'll have to pipe up a little more or Carmen will overpower her! Dh and I peeped on Carmen a lot while she was playing, she just needs to be more aware of what her friends want and like, instead of getting so caught up in finally having a friend, she forgets to check on how they are feeling and what they want.

Tonight it so happened she got a call from the school scape goat, she made sure to invite him over. We've invited him over several times, I know he'd like to come, but I'll have to watch the two of them at least from the distance cause this kiddo is at least as hyper as Vincent if not more so. He's a handful, but a handful with a lovely heart so he's worth it. He tries so darn hard for acceptance at school.

So, she's been a socially busy little girl this weekend! You can just see how much more like settled or complete she seems, having had all that time and interaction with her peers.

[Crazy Cat Lady]

Well I'm darn sure Carmen has attention deficit, I've been told so by this neuro since she was 4. There have been times I've considered meds, did try them, but they did not make a significant difference for her that merited her taking them - so though she seems very ADD maybe it's something else. But then, who doesn't have 'something'!
Maybe it's just her being "not being nereotypical"
A LOT of kids and adults with things like learning disabilites, cp etc have significent social issues. One thing you should try is maybe seeking out special needs specific stuff for your daughter. I know kids with mild issues tend to get mainstreamed to the max.....Not bashing mainstreaming, b/c it does have its advantages.....but special needs enrichment stuff (eg specialized camps/programs etc ) can often provide an arena where a kid with mild special needs can REALLY thrive in life, rather then just "dogpaddling" in the mainstream.