I just got a bit of NT-speak!

[Aspigander]

With talk in another thread or two about using declaratives rather than imperatives, I just thought I might share this.

My mom was in the area, so called to see if she could stop by. Sure. I had a pile of mail sitting on the end table, that was good mail that I'd pulled from the junk mail, which I had in a plastic bag on the floor. My mom (imperatively) suggested that I put my mail in a cupboard or drawer, which I did. I get back to the chair, and she (imperatively) goes: "Before you sit your butt back down, why don't you grab that bag of junk mail and the trash on this end table (empty envelope) and put it in the trash?" I was about to, but she realized there was a bit of mail that I actually wanted on top of the junk that I'd missed. I found it, put it on the end table, and had her go through the junk to make sure I wasn't missing anything else. I wasn't. So I took the bag of junk and put it in the trash. I headed back to the chair, and then...

My mom suddenly made a "psst psst psst" sound, grabbed the bit of mail that had been rescued from the junk mail, and started waving it around. Well not quite waving it but more than wiggling it. Making some back and forth gesture with it. Without much thought, I took it from her hand and put it where I put the other mail.

Is this similar to what people mean when they talk about using declaratives? She didn't say anything, just made a noise and gestured with the mail. Is this some NT speak that I miraculously picked up on? I'm guessing I only picked up on it because I'd just put mail away two minute prior on account of her imperative. Had she just seen mail on the table, made a noise, and started gesturing with it I'd probably have just looked at her like she'd grown a second head. lol

Not sure why I cooperated with her imperatives. It's really...what's the word...well, sometimes I really don't like having her walk into my apartment and tell me to put stuff away. lol

[milivica]

Yes, what your mom said was declarative.

Although, even though she made a word (psssst, psssst) I would more define what you both did as you referencing.

Referencing is this (in RDI):
In a moment of uncertainty, you will look your guide to know what to do, or how to feel.

When you heard the "Pssst" you were uncertain. She was actually 'prompting' you. Rather than not look at her and say "why are you doing that sound" you REFERENCED her. And by doing so, you knew what to do...you knew your role. That was also collaborative, you both had roles. She was the mail giver and you were the mail taker. It's simple things like that, that is RDI. It's really exciting you noticed this! All of this is very unremarkable and ordinary with nt's, but it's amazing with asd's.

So then, with RDI, your mom would learn how to bump up the learning for you, maybe with no prompt, maybe with declaratives, in what ever areas you are weakest....but only enough challenge for you to succeed and never be overwhelmed. How much you can handle without being overwhelmed increases at the same rate that the networking in your brain increases (the ability for the different parts of your brain to communicate with itself). Doing RDI on your own the consultant would help you make discoveries, like mine has helped me.

Really great that you noticed the interaction you two had, good job!

[peglem]

My interpretation is that she "spotlighted" something in the environment (so you would know to attend to it) and you decided what action needed to be taken. A declarative would have been if she actually made a statement: Oh, there's a piece of mail. She used nonverbal cues to draw your attention to it.

[peglem]

OOPs, didn't read Mili's post when i had posted. But wanted to say, you also used environmental context to understand what she meant...cool, huh?

[milivica]

Spotlighting would be if her mom emphasized a positive to build AspieG's competence, or collaboration...such as "we did it" like you did with Allie.

Terminology in RDI was rough for me, I'm pretty sure that's right though.

AspieG, I just reread your original post because it was so nice to read the first time. I noticed something really neat that you said >>>>Without much thought, I took it from her hand and put it where I put the other mail.

That's exactly RDI...it's not about you learning to sort mail with your mom. In this case, it was about collaboration and referencing. Just like it felt effortless to you, it feels effortless when Vince does it, he's just living his life, has no idea I'm 'working' with him. I however am often feel frazzled to create these seemingly natural scenarios for him to make gains.

EDITED TO SAY...PEGLEM WAS CORRECT, IT WAS SPOTLIGHTING.

[Aspigander]

Ah, okay. I wonder if I could get her to try more declaratives and see how it goes. Or more prompts for me to reference. Or I'll have to just learn to reference on my own.

[roadracer]

why do people do this?, why wouldnt your mother just say what she wanted you to do, I mean, why do people have to do those type of things expecting you to know what they want?
I would have been mad because that is frustrating and I just want the person to get to there point. So if my mom did the "psst psst" thing while waving the mail at me, I would have known she wanted me to do something with the mail (not sure what she would want me to do with it), but I would have walked away so I wouldnt start to get mad.

[milivica]

You can learn to reference on your own!

I'm not sure how much the vision aspect of referencing will effect you, but try this...start paying attention to intonation. Hear voices going up, down, getting louder, softer.

I suck and intonation, so would be a bad guide. I still don't 'hear' that kind of thing, not in a way that communicates to me.

[milivica]

why do people do this?, why wouldnt your mother just say what she wanted you to do, I mean, why do people have to do those type of things expecting you to know what they want?


This is how nt's communicate NATURALLY, they are not trying to say things in round about ways. They can't say what they really mean any better than asd's can be declarative, it's their neurology. Asd's are often unable to hear other than instructional talk...I used to get so so angry, "why don't people just say what they mean" was my hugest complaint throughout my entire life, until about 2 years ago.

I swear I understand it's infuriating to you RR. But it's totally unconscious on the part of nt's. And nt kids are taught from early on by nt parents to 'be polite' and to have 'cooth'.

I have one friend, her son is loaded with 'cooth'. He's finally learned with me to just say flat out what he wants, cause he'll politely hint for an hour before I get it. Example, he came over one time with his mom. He looked at our tv and asked if it worked, since it was off I assumed he just wasnt' sure it worked and wanted to know. I said yes, it worked. A few minutes later he said "do you ever watch your tv" and I said yes. And I thought it was funny/odd that he cared weather we watched tv or not. I think the last thing he asked was if I liked Nickelodian, this children's network....I said yes. A few minutes later I 'got it'. He wanted to watch tv. Since it was off, he felt rude asking flat out to turn it on. So began the 'hints' for me so I'd eventually ask him to turn it on.

He's better with me now, I explained that with me, if he don't flat out ask for what ever he wants he'll die of old age before I figure it out.

[Aspigander]

why do people do this?, why wouldnt your mother just say what she wanted you to do, I mean, why do people have to do those type of things expecting you to know what they want?
I would have been mad because that is frustrating and I just want the person to get to there point. So if my mom did the "psst psst" thing while waving the mail at me, I would have known she wanted me to do something with the mail (not sure what she would want me to do with it), but I would have walked away so I wouldnt start to get mad.

I think I would have been frustrated and confused, had I not just put other mail away on the suggestion of her imperative. If, out of left field, she made the noise and waved the mail, I don't think I'd know what to do. I'd have probably stood there puzzled and then started getting frustrated if she didn't get to her point.

I think NT's do that because that's how NT's communicate. Noises and gestures and hints.

[Aspigander]

You can learn to reference on your own!

I'm not sure how much the vision aspect of referencing will effect you, but try this...start paying attention to intonation. Hear voices going up, down, getting louder, softer.

I suck and intonation, so would be a bad guide. I still don't 'hear' that kind of thing, not in a way that communicates to me.

Actually, I think I'm pretty good at intonation. When my mom's tone gets even the slightest hint of frustration, I'm right on it getting anxious.

But you know, maybe I'm not good at intonation. When I get anxious and upset that she is now yelling at me, or at least speaking with a frustrated tone, she will say that she was trying to ask me to do something/not to do something in a nice manner and it seemed to go over my head. She says I only pay attention if she's upset. In these interactions I only get the upset tone...I don't get the prior 'nice' tone she says she has tried. So maybe I am bad at getting intonation?

[roadracer]

I think I need to learn what 6 or so words mean in this thread before I can understand anything in it. I guess I shouldnt have posted in it without understanding first, to many big complicated words in here.

[Aspigander]

What words are complicated? Just asking, in case we can help.

[peglem]

I think I need to learn what 6 or so words mean in this thread before I can understand anything in it. I guess I shouldnt have posted in it without understanding first, to many big complicated words in here.

Hey, no problem, just ask! :DJust get to the point already and tell us what you need to know! :D

[roadracer]

I didnt want to get it off topic asking what all the words mean, I did look at the dictionary entry for them, but it only added to my confusion

declaratives, imperatives, environmental context, intonation, 'cooth'...

For the most part mili's reply did make sence to me, but I still dont understand WHY people do things like that, and why they just dont say what they want. Like what is going on that I am missing that would make it natural. Would it have to do with facial expresions and all that stuff while they are going "psst" and waving the mail, or is it in the way they are waving?

[Aspigander]

Declaratives -- My understanding (though Peg and Mili can probably explain it better) is that a declarative is information given that requires the receiver of that information to make a decision about what action to take. For instance, in Peg's thread, when Allie threw her bus harness on the floor, she said "somebody is going to trip over that". She 'declared' that somebody would trip over the harness. She was giving Allie information that Allie would have to decide what to do with.

Imperatives (again Peg and Mili may be able to explain it better) -- This is giving someone an instruction or command. Using the above example, had Peg said: "Pick up your harness and put it away", she would have been giving Allie an imperative, a command to follow, instead of a declarative, or information to take action upon.

Environmental context -- I think what Peg meant was that I took cues from my environment, perhaps remembering that just a couple minutes prior, I had put mail away, and was drawing upon that. Since my mom was waving more mail at me, and it was not junk mail but mail I wanted to keep, I knew from what had just occurred that I needed to put it away. Peg, please clarify this one -- I think that's what you meant.

Intonation -- Tone of voice, basically. Changes in pitch and volume. For instance, when someone is frustrated, their voice tends to get louder. When someone makes a statement, the pitch goes down at the end, and when asking a question, a person's pitch goes up at the end. That kind of thing.

Cooth -- Politeness. NT's do that naturally, when I'm trying to be polite or 'cooth' it generally takes effort on my part as I am more direct.

[peglem]

That pretty much covers it.

[Nikabee]

I'm not totally clear on declaratives and imperatives myself, but I can try to help some of the others.

Environmental context has to do with seeing and hearing all the information in the area that you're in and using that information to make an assumption. It's sort of like detective work, but as an NT, our brains do it naturally (without having to concentrate on it). Not sure if I was really clear on that one, but let me try another! :)

Intonation is about how our voices changes as we are speaking. Those changes help share the feelings the speaker has. We can change the pitch of our voices to speak higher or lower, we can change how fast or slow we speak, or we can emphasize one word more than others to share a deeper meaning than just the words would by themselves. Personally, I rely on intonation very much. It's something that makes writing kind of difficult for me - there isn't any intonation. Facial expression and body language work together with intonation to share the *meaning* behind the words we are saying.

"Cooth" usually means when someone has mastered the ability to not only be socially appropriate and polite, but can also send and receive very subtle non-verbal hints (or clues). Not all NTs can do this or do it well, by the way! lol Most of my in-laws are considered "NT" and they are very "uncooth!" :D

I'm not sure that I can explain 'why' we communicate that way. We just do. I don't know if you're into science fiction at all, but I think of it as being like telepathy. Telepaths are *able* to use their voices to speak (like NTs are able to 'say what they mean') but they find that communicating telepathically has more meaning. Or, to use the detective example: we have more clues available to solve the mystery of what the speaker is really feeling or trying to say.

So, in the example of the mail, it was probably:
#1: mom's facial expression. I'm assuming she raised her eyebrows and had a slight smile and her eye contact was concentrated - this would be a clue that she expected AspieG to do something.
#2: the past experience in that environment. AspieG had already been dealing with her mail so she knew where that envelope belonged.
#3: body language. Mom waved the envelope to let her know that the thing she was expecting AspieG to do had to do with the mail. Mom might have even leaned forward a little to communicate that she was waiting for her to do something.

Now, I'm not sure if that's *exactly* how that went and I'm sure there were lots more clues that I can't even think of, but it's an example. I hope that helped at least a little.

EDIT: Oops... I was posting the at the same time as you AspieG... sorry! lol

[roadracer]

Thanks, that helps a bunch
I am always amazed at how much is involved in 'normal' communication. I wonder what my moms view of this is then when I just turn around and walk away. I thought she did things like that just to frustrate me.
AspiG, does your mom know that those type of things frustrate you?

[Aspigander]

Well, I'm not sure, really. Sometimes it does seem that she knows something is going to irk me, and sometimes I feel like she does things just to get a rise out of me. But then again, since (as Mili points out) much NT communication is done on an unconscious level, I'm not so sure if she even is aware she's doing it.

[Nikabee]

I wonder what my moms view of this is then when I just turn around and walk away. I thought she did things like that just to frustrate me.

Oh no, really? :( I promise you, we don't do it on purpose... it's just the way we are. *shrugs* I can tell you that when my son walks away from me (for no reason that I can see), I usually think, "Oh crap! I lost him again!" but I never really understand why. It's frustrating to me and makes me feel a little sad that I missed out on some more time with him.

[roadracer]

Oh no, really? :( I promise you, we don't do it on purpose... it's just the way we are. *shrugs* I can tell you that when my son walks away from me (for no reason that I can see), I usually think, "Oh crap! I lost him again!" but I never really understand why. It's frustrating to me and makes me feel a little sad that I missed out on some more time with him.

I feel bad now thinking that maybe I make my mom feel bad by walking away during situations like that.
I will try to make it different the next time this pops up, with my new understanding of the situation I will try to handle it better.

[Nikabee]

I bet if you explain to her what you did to us, she'll understand it better. Kaelen did it just this morning and I think I handled it better this time because of what you shared with me. Remember though that I'm a very sensitive person and I feel guilty very easily. Your mom might be tougher than me, emotionally. ;)

But, I was able to think back on what "other things" were going on when I was trying to talk to him and I think I can see how he might be frustrated. If I think about *just* the words I used and not the facial expressions and body language - I wasn't being very clear about what I wanted. So step 1 is accomplished: I understand his behavior now and I can see how my behavior is confusing and frustrating to him. Step 2? I'm not sure. I want him to learn how to understand those things, but I also need to keep him interested in communicating with me so I can teach him.