What's with NT's and their lack of contingency plans? [Archive]

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 11:41 AM

Okay, I just talked to my mom, and it didn't exactly end so well.

I have an appointment with my psychologist today at 5pm. I'd been trying to make contact to make sure my mom had that down and what time she'd be coming to get me. So just a bit ago she returned my call. She said she thinks she can get me to my appointment by 5:00, but has one at 3:30 until 4:00, and is coming straight to my apartment, and would probably be here to get me about 4:25-4:30. This cuts VERY close, as it then takes 25-30 minutes to get to my appointment. And this is assuming there's not too much stuff, red lights, road construction/closings, etc., getting either from her appt to my apartment or my apartment to my appt. She said we may not have time to stop for coffee on the way, which we like to do as that's right on the way to my appointment. Fine. Right now I'm concerned about getting to my appointment by 5:00pm. If she gets too many red lights, or whatever, trying to get to pick me up, or if we get too many red lights/whatever trying to get to my therapy appointment...that kind of thing cuts things wayyyy too close for comfort.

So I ask what her contingency plan is, bringing up all that stuff. All that stuff that could go wrong. I even brought up the possibility of her appointment getting held over and her not getting out right at 4:00. I know her appointment is important, but just the timing of these too appointments just cuts things so close. IF ALL GOES WELL getting from her appointment to me and then to my appointment, I should get there between 4:55 and 5:00. That's best case scenario. But that's not much margin for error. Cutting so close is the perfect breeding condition for anxiety. Anxiety loves to breed and grow in that kind of condition. It thrives there.

She used a term she uses, saying that I am "pre". Meaning I am pre-worrying, or worrying before I need to. She said if she hasn't shown up here by 4:25-4:30, then start worrying.

Um, that's a little bit late to start worrying, isn't it? If she hasn't picked me up by then, I WILL be late and WON'T get the full hour. I'm worrying, trying to figure out a contingency plan, to AVOID being late. She pointed out that my psychologist is okay with people being late, she's said so, she knows things come up. But still, often so much builds up in the 2-3 weeks between appointments (this time 2, though we're really going to have to start spreading things out as I'm probably already halfway through my sessions for the year), that it's hard not to have that full hour to diffuse things. And now we'll have this whole situation to diffuse. Sometimes it's hard when the full hour is up, but that's better than not having the full time.

I again asked about a contingency plan. She said the contingency plan is we'll call her to let her know we're running late. Um, she may not even get that voicemail until after we meet anyway. Plus we get back to the situation of things becoming difficult if I'm late because that's a shorter session.

She said (as she's said before when we have this kind of conversation) that I should find someone else to hire to get me to appointments. I would love to not be so dependent on her to get me everywhere I need to go. But sorry, folks, when you have to get all of your monthly living expenses into an SSI check, you can't just hire a bunch of outside help. She already convinced me I should hire a cleaning service, and until I get to a point where my executive functioning is high enough to keep up my own cleanliness in this place, that's kind of a priority since all the mold and bacteria isn't exactly healthy. But I just can't be hiring a bunch of outside assistance...just the cleaning service cuts things close. Her not taking me where I need to go, at least at this point in my life (I'm hoping to get to a more functional point in my life), would pretty much mean I don't get there. I just can't afford to hire someone to tote me around. That's just reality.

Oh, and not only that, but other people I may hire would still have their own stuff to do and possibly cut things close as well. It's not like that would fix the problem of things not being cut so close.

So my anxiety levels kept rising, she kept wanting to get off the phone without discussing this very valid (at least as far as I can figure) concern about how I'm getting to my appointment on time, and I finally hung up on her (as often happens in this situation), due to rising anxiety levels over the possibility of being late and the possibility of getting hung up on myself.

Can somebody please explain to me what is with NT's insisting upon not making contingency plans until the last minute, and then getting upset with someone, calling them "pre" when they ask about a contingency plan? Why do NT's live so precariously? Or do NT's not consider this type of situation precarious?

Kristen (ColeysMom)

05-13-2009, 11:52 AM

I do agree Laren that you are pre-worrying.

But I also agree that you are cutting it close! I like to be early myself..I hate rushing in & all...

Here's what I would do...I'd call the Dr now and see if you can move your appointment from 5 to 5:30. Assuming that you are her last appointment of the day, I bet she'd be ok with it, as she could use that 30 minutes for the stuff she generally does before heading out for the day.

Then, if your mom is on time....no snags, you have time for coffee, if not, you wn't be late.

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 11:57 AM

I think she only schedules on the top of the hour. She works pretty late, usually she does have a 6:00 appointment, and she has said she sometimes works even later than that. So chances are good she already has a 6pm, maybe even a 7pm scheduled.

Kristen (ColeysMom)

05-13-2009, 12:05 PM

It doesn't hurt to call and see if there is an option.

At bare minimum you will alert her to your tight schedule...a courtious thing to do.

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 12:45 PM

Well, that's true. I just sent her an email letting her know I could be late, as at this late time that's going to be just as well as leaving her a voicemail (I doubt she would get either) and I am more comfortable with email than phone. I also kind of gave her a brief recap of the phone call, so if she gets the email she'll know we'll have that to diffuse.

Just out of curiosity, can you explain why you think I am pre-worrying? It just seems that if I don't worry until she hasn't shown up by the last possible minute that she could to have hope of getting me there on time, well, that just seems kinda late to start worrying, you know?

peglem

05-13-2009, 01:06 PM

In answer to your original question. Some NTs are very good at adjusting very quickly to whatever happens and are confident that they can deal with it. I'm pretty good at not overplanning things and then just dealing with it (sometimes creatively) when things come up...The world is not static. Just wondering, what kind of contingency plan could your mom come up with? If she can't get there on time, she can't. As far as preworrying, her perspective is probably that its a waste of time and effort to try to deal with events that haven't happened yet, and may not even happen the way you planned. If there were alternatives, she would probably, with the time crunch, prefer to do something else. But, in this instance, really, what can she do but try her best to get you there as soon as she can?
Is there no public transportation where you live? Here we have a "dial a ride" service that can be called to get disabled people to appointments and what not. It seems like this might also be something that is available to you through medicare. For instance, If I didn't have a way to transport Allie to medical appointments, her state medical insurance would provide that.

Keggy

05-13-2009, 01:42 PM

It sounds to me that its not the NT who doesn't have a contingency plan, its you!

Keggy

05-13-2009, 01:43 PM

BTW... if you call your local township you may have a jitney for things like this that you can access.

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 01:44 PM

So I'm guessing my problem may lie more in the anxiety associated with the lack of contingency plan rather than the lack of contingency plan itself?

I'm not sure if I could get transportation covered by insurance or not.

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 01:45 PM

It sounds to me that its not the NT who doesn't have a contingency plan, its you!

LOL! Well, yeah, that's probably true.

RathyKay

05-13-2009, 02:47 PM

We have an Outreach program in our area. I *thought* that once you qualified, it only cost you $1-$2 per trip. I didn't think it was insurance related, but the woman I knew who was using it passed away a few years ago, so I can't ask for any more details. Anyway, if you're only going 2 or 3 times a month, it would probably be affordable, but you'd have to check and see what kind of programs you have in your area. Do you have a friend, or maybe someone from church you could ask to drive you to this one appt on a regular basis?

MomOTwins

05-13-2009, 03:48 PM

I can really relate to your issue here! I come from the Land of the Compulsively On-Time, while my husband comes from the Land of Whenever. :rolleyes:

We spend all of our time before events/meetings/appointments with me frantic because he is moving so slowly and with him upset because I'm nagging about being late! Well, DUH!! If he'd actually look at the clock and figure out how long it takes to get somewhere, we might actually be there on time. What ends up happening is that I sit in the car staring at the clock and he SLOWLY gets his act in gear and shuffles out the front door (usually forgetting something in the process, so he has to go back inside to get it). The sad thing is that we are routinely late for things that we needed to get to on time (a movie, a doctor's appt., etc.).

AUGH....you can imagine how much fun we have when we need to get to the airport for a flight out of town!!! :eek:

My contingency plan has now mutated into me telling him that we need to be somewhere 30 minutes earlier than we actually need to get there, so that MAYBE we'll make it there on time! Yes, this techniques DOES work!

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 04:33 PM

I think I'm calmed down a bit. Right now my plan is to call her at 4:02 to see if she made it out of her appointment on time. Her appointment supposedly ends at 4:00 and that gives her a couple minutes to get to the van. Or at least on her way to it.

One problem I have to worry about with public transportation, even if cost wasn't concerning, is county issues. I'm in one county, right inside the border, and most of my appointments are in the neighboring county. So my county's transportation of course won't take me to places in the other county, and vice versa. I'd also have to get much more competent and confident with the phone before I even attempted figuring all that out.

RathyKay, I really don't do any socializing. So no, I don't really have friends who could help.

MomOTwins, sounds like you could use a cattle prod for your husband. :p Kidding!

roadracer

05-13-2009, 05:22 PM

After I graduated school, when I got my first job, because I didn't have my drivers license my mom drove me to work and picked me up. It was a big pain for her because she had to go way out of her way and had to cut her schedule close. So when I got my second job she sat me down and gave me a list of all the different ways I could get to work and we went over them. The best methods for me that we came up with was taking the bus, or riding my bike to work when it was nice out. So my mom got the bus schedule and we went over it and were I needed to catch it and what the bus ride would be like. I got the pass for people with a disability and it was very cheap. In our area the bus company also has a van service for people with disabilities who cant make it to the bus stop, and it is $5 round trip. There are also other places/sevices that can give you a ride.

I would say have a discussion with your mom about this, using the bus or whatever alternative mode of transportation works. There are going to be times where your mom and everyone else is busy (because they got there own life) and wont be able to drive you to your appointment or drive you around. I think you will feel better when you can plan things out yourself, hop on the bus (and it is there at the exact time it says) go to the place yourself and everything without relying on other people, you will be totally independent with this then. I also think you should work on the grocery shopping also, not sure if you go with your mom to the store to get groceries or if she just does it for you, but it would probably feel good to be able to do it yourself and be independent. Having the cleaning people coming over to help clean I think is one step in being independent because you are not relying on your mom or family to come over to clean for you, you are taking care of the problem to be independent. Sure it is nice to get some help from family, but I think you need to learn some more independence so you can do things on YOUR terms and how YOU want to do things.

TALK TO YOUR MOM ABOUT THIS, if you have to take the bus so far and transfer buses, or WHATEVER plans or methods you come up with, anything that will lead to a little more independence. You cant just keep righting stuff off because you think there might be a problem, like with the bus, as you really don't know until you get with your mom and discuss it, get on the bus website, her calling the bus company, calling all the other different places for options.
I really hope you get my message, because I think you will have a little less anxiety and feel a little better about yourself with a little more independence.

MomOTwins

05-13-2009, 06:11 PM

Lauren, you are right about the cattle prod! I'm considering getting a lovely little Tazer to use to "help" him get ready a little faster! [yes, I'm also kidding]

I think that Roadracer has the best idea. Independence and knowing your options are the real goals here. You may want to check out the options online, email the providers and discuss your issues (county-to-county travel, advance booking of your travel for appointments) and see if they have any suggestions! This might be a little easier than having to put together a script or list of things to discuss when calling them, as you may get distracted in the call and only end up talking about one issue when you need to discuss two or three items.

Good luck!

Aspigander

05-13-2009, 10:56 PM

Roadracer,
I think you're right, that I would feel better with more independence. I can't count how many times I've thought: "That would be an interesting thing to do." And then think: "Oh. Drat. Nope. That would require a lot of my mom and I can't put that on her." I'll try talking to her about it, though not sure how willing she'll be.

I kind of think the cleaning service is a step backwards in independence, actually. Sure, I'm not relying on my mom for that, but I'm still relying on *someone* when at my age I should be able to do it on my own.

Honestly, I think I'd be a heck of a lot better with independent travel if I can figure out a better route planning method. I just keep thinking about that training I had two years ago, where I darn near had an unexpected lesson in How To Become Roadkill 101. My problem isn't as much in executing a route -- well I have route execution problems since I initiated that near disaster of a street crossing, but had I planned the route properly I would have never even encountered that intersection, and since that route was already 'blueprinted', I couldn't just improvise and revise my plan on the spot. My blueprint was to cross that street at that (unsafe to cross) intersection and every time I think of independent travel (as much as I'd like to be able to), I keep thinking about the time I darn near got myself killed trying to cross an unsafe intersection. I think that's what's putting a damper on any progress in that area. That route was to be done partly by bus, partly on foot and (aside from extremely poor planning) for the bus part I did pretty well, but the on foot part not so good, and nearly ended in a ridiculously tragic manner. My goal is to still be alive once I reach my destination.

Sometimes I go with my mom to the store and sometimes she just goes. I think she finds it easier if she just picks stuff up. There are just little idiosyncrasies that can make shopping with me a pain in the butt. Like if she gets the idea we should leave the cart somewhere and go get what we're in a particular aisle for. Well I don't like walking away from the cart, and I'm pretty clingy so I'll still tend to follow her where she's going, so get all women and children out of aisle 5, we've got a visually impaired aspie trying to maneuver it around.

MomOTwins, yes, a tazer might help. lol

milivica

05-13-2009, 11:37 PM

Your mom doesn't need an 'advanced' contingency plan for this situation. She will come up with alternate plans if and when the original plan falls through. I used to be just like you are describing, used to drive others and mostly myself, nuts. So I hear you! I used to need contingency plans for everything much in the same way people need contingency plans for an outdoor wedding in case of bad weather. But for her, it might feel like making contingency plans for running out of toothpaste or getting a paper cut...it might feel unnecessary and exhausting.

I loved the ideas you got from RR and others about alternate transportation than your mom. And thought Peglem already explained things so well I'm not going to give you a ten long paragraph post for once.

roadracer

05-14-2009, 01:38 AM

I keep thinking about the time I darn near got myself killed trying to cross an unsafe intersection. I think that's what's putting a damper on any progress in that area.
My first bike race ever, I was all excited got a half lap into it and crashed hard at 30mph, flipped over the handle bars, slid down the road, road rash all over me, some severe, ended up going to the hospital. I could have gave up before I ever even started. Could have been afraid after that first race and never raced again, but I didn't, I hopped back on the bike and never looked back. Now over a hundred races later and half dozen crashes I am still at it. I am lucky because I have not crashed that much, some people seem to be so clumsy they crash way to often.
My point is that you keep with it. Just because you had a bad experience that first time, does not mean it will happen again. Now I am not saying just run out to go to the bus like nothing bad is going to happen, I am saying you should work on it, what you need to work on till you can make it to the bus safely without getting run over. or heck try one of the other methods of transportation that was suggested, and talk to your mom about them. The bus might not be good for you after all, but just don't let one bad incident stop you from making progress with things.
The quote that I live by is
"The greatest accomplishments in life, are the things you had to work the hardest for"
But Teddy Roosevelt said it better when he said
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer too much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat"

Aspigander

05-14-2009, 10:57 AM

Mili,
LOL! You know, I know you were trying to use toothpaste and paper cut as an analogy to illustrate how minor my mom may think my need for contingency plans is, but all I could think of was "have a second tube of toothpaste always on hand, and one or two boxes of bandaids". :p :D Seriously though, I think I get your point. I think my problem is I've had times where there was no contingency plan, and it ended badly. Like my aforementioned street crossing episode. I had that route "blueprinted", I had the bus part blueprinted and the on foot part blueprinted, took the bus from the training center to the stop I had planned to start the on foot part on, went to that intersection, and I did notice the street I was to cross was busy, but not controlled by a traffic light (one of the biggest 'rules' you learn in Orientation and Mobility, sometimes given the nickname of Disorientation and Immobility, is that YOU DO NOT NOT NOT NOT CROSS A BUSY STREET UNLESS THE INTERSECTION IS CONTROLLED BY A TRAFFIC LIGHT!), I got to that intersection and on one level, I knew I shouldn't be trying to cross there. BUT the route, as I had planned it, had me crossing that intersection, and I had no contingency plan to fall back on and couldn't quickly come up with an alternate. So, it's been my experience that lack of contingency plans can be very problematic (well that and poor planning which also played a role).

Roadracer,
You are very resilient! How do you manage that?

I agree with you, I need to work on stuff, so hope I'm not implying otherwise here. It's just that with my tendency to make stupid and dangerous mistakes like that (that wasn't the first time I tried to stick to a route that had me trying to cross busy streets at non-lighted intersections, but that was the first time the instructor was far enough back he couldn't call me back before I even got off the curb -- as time goes by they kind of pull back their involvement. Not saying that's wrong, just saying that was a chronic problem I had and this was just the first time I made it off the curb and almost got run over), there's a huge fear that I might make the same mistake again and not make it back to the curb before getting hit. Getting hit by multiple vehicles would result in worse injury than road rash like you got from the bike crash. Getting hit by multiple vehicles could result in a fatality.

I must say, I am quite impressed by your resilience. I think most times I have fought to progress in my life, I just kept getting knocked back, and finally had most of the 'fight' knocked out of me. It's not that I don't want to progress, as I do, but if I'm going to do things and chronically make such bad mistakes, I'm afraid one of these days I'm going to earn myself a six foot deep hole in the ground that could be prevented by not making dangerous mistakes.

milivica

05-14-2009, 12:27 PM

I think I get your point. I think my problem is I've had times where there was no contingency plan, and it ended badly.

Ok, new way of thinking...it didn't END badly. When things go wrong, it ENDS for you. And that's autism. But nothing actually ENDS, life is a journey, not a destination. Days are a continuum that goes from one day to the next, so birth is the start of a circle which is your life and death is when that circle completes on Earth. When a bad thing happens, it's ok, cause in the grand scheme of things it was one moment...and I'm talking about stuff like your mom running late. If there was (for instance) a murder I wouldn't say "oh life is a continuum just get over it".

Example, once we went for a long weekend to a cabin my friend was nice enough to let us stay in on Lake Michigan. The day before we were to return home, my husband lost the key in the lake. We couldn't get back in. I freaked, I didn't want my friend to feel like she'd made a mistake trusting us, I just felt soooo bad and worried about what she might think and what it might mean to our friendship, just a zillion 'might' happens. We did figure out how to break in and did, so you'd think that would be 'whew, glad that's over' but for me, it wasn't. The entire weekend, was ruined for me. It's like I just could not get past the idea that we're back in, it's over. Though I did have many laughs after that event the next day, under the surface of my smile I was ready to leave and had been from the second he lost the key.

What RR did by getting back on his bike despite what must have been bad injuries (road rash is horrible!) he didn't allow his mind to mark that entire event as 'bad' or 'ruined'. He wasn't focused only on the activity, did not limit himself to a blueprint of how things were supposed to go, had formed episodic (emotional) memories and used them to get back on that bike. And you were right, that was resilience! RR didn't have an advanced contingency plan...if I skin one knee I'll keep riding, if I skin a knee and an arm I'll still ride, if I get an injury bigger than a basketball I'll still ride, I won't ride if I break a leg bone but will ride if I break a toe or finger...he could have planned every possible scenario forever, but didn't, cause he had ongoing appraisal, he was able to instantly assess what mattered and what didn't so he knew what to do and didn't have to preplan.

When you can't MOVE ON past a bad event, then it seems like most everything ends in a bad event because that's what you are bookmarking in your mind. And that is an aspie thing, but you can change that. Like for instance, when George bit you, you didn't say, "well that's it, this will never work, I'm done". So you DO have the ability to move on, you just need to extend it. If your mom is running late or you miss an appointment, it's not the end of the world to either show up late to the appointment or make another one...and on a logical level I know you know that. But on an emotional level you don't or you wouldn't need all those advanced contingency plans. Also, foreshadowing is excellent for not needing advanced contingency plans...you can recall past experiences so you can foreshadow similar scenarios and use those experiences to decide in a flash what to do when stuff goes wrong or when something unexpected comes up.

peglem

05-14-2009, 12:51 PM

Aspigander

05-14-2009, 12:56 PM

When you can't MOVE ON past a bad event, then it seems like most everything ends in a bad event because that's what you are bookmarking in your mind.

Okay, but how can you NOT bookmark some negative events in your mind?

Okay, you're standing at an intersection about to cross a street. You know you really shouldn't be crossing, but you do look both ways and it does look clear. So you step off the curb and start crossing like you own the place. All of a sudden you hear cars coming from your left, you look, and there are about 6-10 cars heading straight towards you at a pretty good clip. You freeze for a moment. They get closer, try to slow down, someone honks. You hightail it back to the curb as fast as you possibly can with not a second to spare. You realize that you almost had 6-10 cars piled on top of you and that "continuum" called life probably would have ended.

How does that NOT get bookmarked in your brain?

Aspigander

05-14-2009, 12:58 PM

So, then it comes down to when something "bad" happens, you can either figure out how to do it differently next time(learn from the experience) or you can decide to never try again. I see alot of the latter in Allie.

Well, yeah. Sometimes I can learn from it (like the George incident Mili mentioned), but when things are so severe like they were when I almost became roadkill, that kind of thing tends to get me to shut down.

roadracer

05-15-2009, 02:54 AM

Thanks for the compliments, nice to know I have something going on that is correct in this head of mine.

Okay, but I am now confused about "resilience", as I thought I had a understanding from Kristens resilience exercise thread, but then in this thread I am confused, are both pictures I have of the meaning of resilience, are they both correct? and what part is the episodic emotional memory?

Okay, but how can you NOT bookmark some negative events in your mind?
Aspigander, your always going to remember that time, but maybe it is HOW you remember it. Like I will never forget the times I crashed, but I knew that was a risk when I started racing, and I just try not to think about it much.

If you trip down the stairs and break your leg, are you going to stop using stairs? people fall down stairs and die from it all the time, does that mean you should protect yourself by never using stairs, or say you are in a car crash, does that mean you should never ride in a car again because of the risk. Now that would be silly. When you fell off the boat dock and almost drown did that stop you from ever going on a boat again? That didnt stop you from going boating again? Why is this any different?

The dock situation you learned that you need to use a different methods to navigate the dock. The crossing the street incident you learned why it is important to cross at a light or important to find better methods of crossing the street, or whatever you have to do to avoid the situation again.

peglem

05-15-2009, 03:08 AM

Okay, but I am now confused about "resilience", as I thought I had a understanding from Kristens resilience exercise thread, but then in this thread I am confused, are both pictures I have of the meaning of resilience, are they both correct? and what part is the episodic emotional memory?

My understanding of resilience is that it is the willingess to try again even in the face of previous failure or setback...Bouncing back.

I was a little confused about resilience in Kristens thread as well. But I think the book she was reading on Resilience was pointing out that feelings of self competence are something that leads to resilience. And one way to build those feelings is to focus or spotlight things that you're good at.

Lauren, have you ever considered getting a seeing eye dog? That seems like it would be perfect for you, safetywise and companionwise.

roadracer

05-15-2009, 03:55 AM

roadracer

05-15-2009, 03:59 AM

My understanding of resilience is that it is the willingess to try again even in the face of previous failure or setback...Bouncing back.

I was a little confused about resilience in Kristens thread as well. But I think the book she was reading on Resilience was pointing out that feelings of self competence are something that leads to resilience. And one way to build those feelings is to focus or spotlight things that you're good at.
that all makes sense, thanks

peglem

05-15-2009, 04:47 AM

or a seeing eye horse? :D no joking, I seen this the other day and pegs saying about a seeing eye dog has me thinking if you had a seeing eye horse that would be awesome!!! Maybe I am just acking silly and need to go to bed, but I also seen a service monkey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_horse
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_helper
really a seeing eye dog would be great!!!

OMG-The picture in my mind, mostly of this horse in Lauren's apartment! And it better be a seeing eye horse that cleans up after itself, because Lauren cannot afford people who are willing to clean that up! How cool would it be though, if your seeing eye critter was also your ride?

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 11:09 AM

Interesting the dog thing was mentioned. When I was at the training center, there was a day when they had someone from the guide dog school here in Michigan come out, and anyone who wanted got to 'test drive' a dog. It felt pretty natural. I've always wanted one since even before that, but I think you already have to do things on a daily basis first outside of the home, so they'll know you'll actually use the dog. I think I'd be more likely to do so with a dog, though.

Ironically, that episode likely wouldn't happen with a dog. One of the things guide dogs are taught is what is called "intelligent disobedience". This means that, if the handler is about to cross a street, and issues a forward command, and there are cars coming, the dog is supposed to refuse to execute that command. So if I had a dog, and that dog realized that cars were coming before I did, it should have simply stood there despite me issuing the forward command. So it probably would add a new level of confidence/security.

Yeah, having a horse take a dump inside the apartment might not be the best thing (hopefully they're 'housetrained'). Actually, Peg, not sure it could be my ride as well, as I think they use miniature horses for guide work.

peglem

05-15-2009, 11:13 AM

peglem

05-15-2009, 11:18 AM

Hey, check it out!

http://www.leaderdog.org/programs/index.php

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 11:29 AM

If you trip down the stairs and break your leg, are you going to stop using stairs? people fall down stairs and die from it all the time, does that mean you should protect yourself by never using stairs, or say you are in a car crash, does that mean you should never ride in a car again because of the risk. Now that would be silly. When you fell off the boat dock and almost drown did that stop you from ever going on a boat again? That didnt stop you from going boating again? Why is this any different?

I think difference is that the risks with stairs or car crashes are inherent for everybody, and can happen without the person falling or crashing being at fault (maybe there was a banana peel on the top step, or maybe another car swerved to miss a squirrel, etc.). Even with the dock incident, that method of navigating seemed pretty good on the surface...until then I never had any idea that I should do something different. With the street crossing incident, I KNEW full well that the number one rule for crossing streets is, if the street you're crossing is a busy street, ONLY cross that street at a light. But because of my inability to have that flexible thinking going and adjust my 'blueprint', I didn't know what else to do, so I just checked as best I could, didn't see cars coming, and attempted to cross. I think the difference between this and the other scenarios is that with this, I have the fear that my inflexibility, poor planning, and inability to quickly adjust my plan when I realize something is amiss may be what leads to my demise. Whereas, well, anyone can get in a car accident, so be kind of silly not to go in a car.

My idea of resilience is that it is basically the ability to bounce back and move on when things go wrong. You've crashed your bike, wound up hospitalized, and still got back on the bike -- therefore you were able to bounce back and move on, which is what I understand to be resilience.

I think Peg is right about her assessment of Kristen's thread. You felt overall competent with your ability to ride your bike, so you were able to have that resilience. I felt overall competent with my ability to navigate the dock, so whoops, I turned around the wrong dock box and wound up in the water, but was able to bounce back and be resilient because I felt overall competent. I never did feel overall competent with my travel skills, which is probably a large part of why I have the lack of resilience from the street crossing incident.

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 11:45 AM

Well, I think you should look into the dog thing a bit more. It would boost your confidence and make you feel safer. It doesn't make sense to me that you'd have to be already out doing things to show need. If you're already out doing things w/o the dog, doesn't that show that you DON'T need one?

They (understandably) want to make sure they're not going to train a dog and have it lose its training because the handler winds up not using the dog for its intended purpose. I do know that also, you have to demonstrate good cane travel skills as a prerequisite (at least at Leader Dog, the one that let us test drive dogs and I think most guide dog schools).

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 01:08 PM

You know, something just occurred to me. You know how ASD folks are supposed to be all about rules, right? I wonder if I'd be safer with street crossings than I realize.

I was taught to always make sure I'm crossing a busy street at a light. While that was one of the 'rules' I was taught, I wonder if it never became a 'rule' in my own head, or else I probably would have followed that 'rule' at all costs. I'm wondering if the fact that I did not follow that rule might mean that it never was cemented as a rule in the first place.

Well, now I know. Black and white. Do not cross a busy street at an intersection not controlled by a light. I wonder if that might make me LESS likely to attempt such a crossing again?

Though, with my "blueprint" and rigidity to said blueprint, I still wonder what happens when "the rule" collides with "the blueprint".

Nikabee

05-15-2009, 03:34 PM

Though, with my "blueprint" and rigidity to said blueprint, I still wonder what happens when "the rule" collides with "the blueprint".

I think you have the answer right there. From what I can understand, you were faced with 2 conflicting "rules." That conflict was the focus of your attention, and so it was difficult to make a judgment decision 'in the moment.' This problem with making decisions happens to NTs too sometimes but when we are faced with 2 equally good choices or when our 'preference' isn't an option. For instance - say I decide I need a new vehicle and I want to buy a purple Jeep. I go to the dealership and they don't have a purple Jeep - they only have a black one or a blue one... or maybe even a purple car of a different model. That's a difficult decision to make... and the sucess of that decision will depend on my past experience with making decisions of that kind and my ability to predict the outcome of the decision.

I think the same senario holds true for aspies/auties, in general, with most decisions. You've mentioned before that, in conversations, *all* details are equally important. The same is probably true of *all* plans and *all* rules. But you can't physically do both in this case - follow the blueprint and follow the rule about safely crossing the street. There's that conflict, so if you can't prioritize which rule is most important in this situation and can't predict the outcome, you would be likely to make mistakes.

Now the important thing IMO at this point is to learn from that mistake and modify your plans. What did we learn from this example? Well, I think that an easy way to look at it is to make sure your next plan includes crossing at intersections with traffic lights. If there's no light, you make a different route... until you get a lead dog, that is! :)

Good luck with that and remember... practice makes better!

peglem

05-15-2009, 03:57 PM

But, also, you did the right thing- you hightailed your fanny out of there and survived....success! So, you are capable of ditching your blueprint and reacting in a common sense way when faced with a life threatening mistake.
I looked at the guide dog website and they do need a 15 minute video (as part of the application process) showing you making a trip independently, crossing 2 streets, at least one with a stop light. But all you need to do is practice, practice 1 route, until you have it pat. And you'd have the person who is filming you 10-15 feet away at all times.

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 05:39 PM

Nikabee,
I think you have the answer right there. From what I can understand, you were faced with 2 conflicting "rules." That conflict was the focus of your attention, and so it was difficult to make a judgment decision 'in the moment.'

I think you're right there. I can prioritize when I'm sitting around thinking about it. Like right now, I can sit and think: "Now, what happens if I'm on a blueprinted route, get to a busy street at an intersection without a traffic light, and have a clash of rules? Well, the safety rule would obviously trump the blueprint rule. Don't cross there." However, in the moment, faced with that unexpected scenario, I can't really prioritize. I just knew that I had an objective, a destination to get to, I had that thought that 'you know, I shouldn't be crossing here' but I was driven to make my destination (which I of course didn't), and I knew no other way to get there, so in my mind I really didn't have a choice but to try to cross.

Well, I think that an easy way to look at it is to make sure your next plan includes crossing at intersections with traffic lights.

Problem is, I may not know until I get to the intersection whether or not it has a traffic light, or a busy street (you can cross a quiet street, for example, at a stop sign), or whatever. When I'm looking online at maps, like I was doing in the town where the training center was, well, maps don't tell you if it's a traffic lighted intersection or not. So I knew I'd be coming to the intersection of those two streets, but until I got there, I didn't know if they were busy or not, how the intersection was controlled, etc. That's why what happened was so unexpected.

Peglem,
I guess I need to adjust my perspective. Instead of saying I almost got hit, I should be saying I did hightail my fanny out of there and survived. The thing though, and I'm not sure I should ignore it, is that I did freeze initially. YES I unfroze at the moment I did and hightailed it, but it is a very real concern if it takes a life-threatening mistake for common sense to kick in. Because next time I might remain frozen for just one second too long. Does that make sense? Am I correct that that's a valid concern, or am I just fixated on something I don't need to worry about?

Nikabee

05-15-2009, 05:52 PM

Ah, I see what you're saying now AspieG. I was thinking that you were familiar with the area your route took your through. Sorry. So is the issue mostly about planning new routes through unfamiliar territory? Do you feel comfortable navigating a route that you're familiar with?

milivica

05-15-2009, 06:39 PM

Aspigander, your always going to remember that time, but maybe it is HOW you remember it.

YES! Exactly. I gotta remember that, yes, HOW you remember it.

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 07:26 PM

Nikabee,
During the four months I spent at that training center, I did get pretty familiar some of those streets. There were definitely intersections I was familiar with, how busy the streets were and how the intersection was controlled. What happens during an Orientation and Mobility (O&M) lesson, is that you are given a destination and have to plan a route prior to the lesson and execute it during the lesson time. Some of the destinations are within the same general area, but this one kind of took me on the outskirts of my familiar territory.

Now, as for route planning -- the way you're taught to do it is they give you a list of questions specifically designed to pinpoint your destination's exact location. You're supposed to call your destination and ask these very specific questions. There are several and it kind of made me feel like I was conducting a police interrogation. Couple that with all of my phone issues/phobias. That makes me loathe to get information in that manner. So I'd find as much info as I could online and plan a route that way. This often leads to faulty planning, and actually, had I planned my route properly, I never would have even encountered this particular intersection (as in, I was going the total opposite direction of my destination).

I got at least semi-comfortable in my usual territory.

RR and Mili,
How can I look at it differently though? The facts/events are the facts/events. I planned the route, came to an intersection I never would have had I planned it out correctly, it happened to be an intersection that was unsafe to cross, tried to cross it anyway, cars started coming towards me, I froze right there in the road, they got closer, I unfroze just in time to get to safety before getting plastered all over the street. Those are the facts. Those were the events of the incident. How can I remember it any differently? Pretend the facts happened differently? I don't think I could pull that off.

Nikabee

05-15-2009, 07:57 PM

Well, it's clear that there's a lot to this 'route planning' that I don't understand. :) What I'm getting out of this discussion though is that the issue right now is more that your confidence was shaken by this incident - am I even remotely close on that one?

Part of dealing with that lack of confidence could be practice - starting out where you're fairly comfortable (what we call 'engineering success' in my family) and gradually challenging youself to go further. But another part could be a change in your perspective, as RR and Mili are pointing out. It's not that you alter the facts (facts are facts, afterall), but more about which fact you focus on. There's that 'prioritizing ideas' thing again! ;) If you can focus on the fact that you DID get out of the way in time, that changes the meaning of the story a little bit.

peglem

05-15-2009, 07:58 PM

How can I look at it differently though? The facts/events are the facts/events. I planned the route, came to an intersection I never would have had I planned it out correctly, it happened to be an intersection that was unsafe to cross, tried to cross it anyway, cars started coming towards me, I froze right there in the road, they got closer, I unfroze just in time to get to safety before getting plastered all over the street. Those are the facts. Those were the events of the incident. How can I remember it any differently? Pretend the facts happened differently? I don't think I could pull that off.

How about this:
I planned out a route. Whoops! what was I thinking? It turned out not to be the right route. Okay, people make mistakes, no biggy. I got to an intersection that was unsafe to cross, but decided to give it a try anyway. When the cars started coming toward me, I froze but was able to recover quickly enough to get to safety. (getting plastered all over the road didn't happen, you don't need to remember it). Boy, I'm going to double check my route next time. And now I know that if the cars start coming I better get out of the street right away. Anyway, if I plan my route incorrectly, I've got my cell phone with me and can get help. What an adventure!

A problem here is that you have already encoded and rehearsed this memory in a neg. way, so that its become this huge obstacle to you trying again.
I'm not blaming you, it was really scary, but I think you want to get past it. So then, the question is...how do you do that? You've got some options. I know your mom is very busy, but you need somebody who can go along with you several times (even if they plan the route for you) so you can practice a route enough for that video, so you can get a critter to help the safety issue. Even then, though, you're going to have to find ways to to go places. The dog can help you with a lot of things, but I bet he can't tell you how to get somewhere.

Aspigander

05-15-2009, 09:31 PM

Nikabee,
Yes, you're right -- that was something that shook my already not overly great confidence.

Peg,
I think part of the problem is my tendency to encode and rehearse the memory negatively, and partly that my instructor (and I can't blame him, he almost watched me get plastered all over the road) helped to encode the bad stuff. He said that was a dangerous mistake (emphasizing the word dangerous). We had talked at least a couple of times about how that could have ended far worse than it did, and that I just can't cross busy streets at intersections not controlled by a traffic light. Again, not blaming him, he has to make sure that students execute routes safely, which I did not. Just wondering if our interactions might have contributed to how encoded the negative stuff is.

Nikabee

05-15-2009, 09:54 PM

Just wondering if our interactions might have contributed to how encoded the negative stuff is.

That probably contributed to it, yes. But ultimately, you have the ability to change it for yourself. But it is a great reminder to me for when I'm trying to teach safety rules to my son or deal with serious situations. I have to be very careful to not focus only on the negative 'what ifs' of the situation because that's what he will zero in on.

I remember when he got stung by a bee (he's allergic to bee stings - among other things). My husband and father-in-law really FLIPPED OUT! You'd have thought he'd touched a downed electrical wire instead of a tiny little bee butt. :D They raced him home for a benedryl, all the while telling him how he needed to be more careful outdoors and watch for places that might hold a bee's nest. Now, he's afraid to go outside if the weather's nice because there *might* be bees. IF he carefully ventures outside, even a fly buzzing by him will send him running back into the house. Then, of course, we have to hear the story (for the 50,000th time) of how he 'nearly died' when the bee stung him 3 years ago! It's slowly getting better with that 'engineering success' strategy, but it's been pretty time consuming and emotionally exhausting. And it could've been avoided altogether if we had just been more careful about how we talked about it at the time.

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 01:43 AM

But ultimately, you have the ability to change it for yourself.

Do you think I can adjust my perspective on it after it's been festering in my mind for two years?

Nikabee

05-16-2009, 02:00 AM

Quick answer? YEP. :) (Sorry, I don't mean sound flippant, but I have a weird sense of humor sometimes)

Seriously, it will take a lot of work - I won't lie to you about that. And it will require you to go beyond your comfort level sometimes. But you can do it. And I get the feeling that you DO really want to - that's usually 1/2 the battle. I'm not a therapist myself, so I would recommend that you talk about with yours. One thing you can try in the meantime is to make a decision to only say the positive parts when you're talking about the incident. That might help you pick out the positives (it was a learning experience, you did react in time, etc) and start reinforcing them. I realize it sounds really hokey, but it does work. Then later as you gain more positive experiences and memories about traveling successfully on your own (that's where the practice and being outside of your comfort zone comes in), the fear and the negative thoughts/memories will start to fade.

Like I said, it won't be easy. Those thoughts have been 'festering' for 2 years... they won't change overnight. But they can. One day, instead of feeling fearful about it, you'll be able to laugh about it and realize how much you've grown and developed since then.

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 02:15 AM

Okay, let me see what I can do here. This won't be exactly as Peg put it. Not that she put it badly or anything, but let's see if I can, in my own words, put that event more positively:

I was executing a route I had planned, not knowing that I had planned it incorrectly. I came to the intersection, and there was no traffic light and the street I was supposed to cross was busy, thus making that intersection an unsafe place to cross. But since I'd planned my route, I knew nothing else to do, so just looked both ways, and tried to cross when it seemed the coast was clear. But oops! The coast wasn't clear, and I had to make a dash back for the curb to get out of the way of all the cars. Glad I made it to safety! I later learned I had planned an erroneous route. Oops, next time I'd better be a little more careful with my route planning.

How's that?

peglem

05-16-2009, 02:38 AM

Yeah, that's good.

Nikabee

05-16-2009, 02:44 AM

Yep, I think you've got! :) I especially like how you tied in the "next time" part. That puts the whole focus of the story on how it was a learning experience. Very positive.

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 02:51 AM

Thanks. It just feels like when I reread my post...like it's missing something.

roadracer

05-16-2009, 03:17 AM

now tomorrow when you wake up, do whatever you need to do in the morning, then make it a goal to take a walk down the sidewalk and back. Before you get on this board. TOMORROW, yes, don't think about it, or think about everything that could go wrong. Just think to yourself, and keep telling yourself that you will go as far as you can go, and if start to feel stressed out you can always just turn around and go back home. You don't have to do any of the street crossings yet, but you need to get out everyday and just keep testing your limits, when you are comfortable and confident with one thing then move on to the next. Nothing bad is going to happen just taking a walk down the street to a intersection and just standing there and observing things. I am not going to be happy unless I get on this board tomorrow and read a message that you at least attempted to go for a walk, at least down the sidewalk and back.
We can keep this thread going forever talking about this, but you are not going to see any progress actually doing it till you start to expose yourself to these things. Dont come up with any excuses for not going on that walk tomorrow, as that would be just trying to avoid it :) what do you think? (and no I am not crazy, my mother had me tested :D)

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 03:42 AM

what do you think? (and no I am not crazy, my mother had me tested :D)

Well, since going to the mailbox (not even out of the building) or dumpster (down the parking lot) is done on a much more rare basis than it should, pulling a walk down the street off should be interesting (obviously, those issues don't have anything to do with street safety concerns, but my general reclusiveness and anxiety about getting around other people). Not sure if I'll get quite far enough to your liking.

And no, I don't think you're crazy. I guess I'll just have to see if I can push past the anxiety a little.

Nikabee

05-16-2009, 02:18 PM

I guess I'll just have to see if I can push past the anxiety a little.

I know it's hard, but see if this helps - say, "I WILL push myself past the anxiety a little today." I think that was a part of what RR was saying. It's about making a decision to do something - then *doing* it... and do it often until it's not a problem for you anymore. Don't give your nervousness time to take root.

peglem

05-16-2009, 02:40 PM

I think the fact that you control how far you go, instead of somebody deciding what your destination must be will make this easier, and it will give you practice in monitoring your own anxiety level-like you'll keep checking with yourself if its okay to go a little farther. Do you have any small businesses fairly close, like a little convenience store or a coffee shop? (dare I say starbucks?) I'm thinking eventually you may be able to become a daily visitor at a place like that to get a little practice with being with people outside your family. We take Allie to a store every Friday. Right now she gets to choose between the dollar store or Walgreen's. The people at both stores are familiar with her and will go out of their way to be nice and helpful. In fact, when we return to the dollar store on a Friday where we did walgreens the previous week, they ask where we were and they missed us last week.

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 03:50 PM

Okay, I am wanting to say that the distance was disappointingly short, but I'm going to try my hardest to relay the story in a positive light instead of focusing on how short it was.

I think I did wind up spending too much time allowing anxiety to try to take root. Fortunately, I was able to do it at all, and the anxiety didn't take such hold that I completely shut down. I decided for an added measure of security, I'd see if my mom would sit on the phone with me while I took the walk. Oops, busy for 2-3 hours. I knew after that much time of anxiety being left to fester, I'd more than likely have talked myself right on out of it by that point. She suggested for her to be on the phone with me it might be tomorrow, and I knew that wouldn't go over very well here, plus more time for anxiety to grow. So I called my dad to see if he would do it. He would when he got off work at 2pm (then about 20 minutes away). I blueprinted how far I would go. Since, due to my rather severe reclusiveness, my comfort zone literally ends at the door to my apartment, I figured that if I walked out the front door of the building, down the sidewalk to the street, that would be a fair distance from my comfort zone, at least to start off. I knew intellectually I would be safe even if emotionally I would be well out of my safety zone. I called my dad back at 2pm and headed out. As I got out there, I realized that when I get to a point where I'm actually taking a walk along the street, I'll actually be turning down the intersecting sidewalk, so it would not make sense for me to go literally to the street, since that's not where I would turn, but rather I would turn at the sidewalk that parallels the street. So I was able to adjust my blueprint and make my 'end point' the intersecting sidewalk rather than all the way at the street. I stood there a few seconds, commented to my dad that it was nice weather and I wondered why I was wearing my winter coat, and headed back in.

Okay, I think I recounted that fairly positively. And, of course, here's the but...the distance I actually went was awfully short.

Peg, there is a convenience store, but that requires navigating a very scary intersection where both streets are busy, and I'd have to cross both streets. Luckily, there is a traffic light at that intersection, but I'm not to that point yet. I don't think there's a Starbucks too close, which may be a good thing as that would wind up being a rather expensive daily trip. LOL :D

Nikabee

05-16-2009, 04:04 PM

You did it! :) Try not to worry so much about the distance... it was a great first step toward to your ultimate goal and you did it successfully! Good job adjusting your blueprint 'in the moment' too. If you make it a goal to do that everyday, soon you will feel comfortable enough to do it without being on the phone with someone. That would probably be step 2. Step 3 might be something like picking a slightly different destination (maybe in the other direction, down the street) or adding to the distance (maybe going around the block - still no intersections). Since I'm not familiar with where you live, I can't say for sure, but those are some ideas.

Way to go! :D

peglem

05-16-2009, 04:33 PM

It was exactly the right distance, since your goal was to go just a bit outside of your comfort zone. Great idea to do it with somebody you trust on the phone with you. You set your own goals. You know your tolerance level best. And don't forget, if something unexpected happens...you can always retreat. (and in that case retreat would not be defeat, just a learning experience to help you make adjustments.)

roadracer

05-16-2009, 05:16 PM

Great, thats awesome!!!! I am happy!!! :D

my software stop working so cant say much till I get it fixed, will be back to say more

roadracer

05-16-2009, 06:46 PM

okay, got things working again

It is always hardest to take those first steps, but now that you have, that is something to be proud of. The distance is not important, what is important is that you set yourself a goal and followed threw with it.

With bicycle racing it is important to set goals so you can achieve what you ultimately want to achieve. I spend a good amount of time setting goals for myself, small weekly goals like riding so many miles and completing certain workouts, a bunch of season goals like riding so many miles during the season for a certain race, a few big goals like working on getting on a pro team, and finally you have your one ultimate dream goal , you set this goal really high, for me that would be racing in the tour de france. All those smaller goals along the way lead to your big goal, and if say I fall short of the tour and only made it to racing on a pro team, I still had great success along the way and can be proud of my accomplishments.

So if you apply this approach to your situation, (sort of like making IEP goals) you are breaking it down to manageable chunks that you can accomplish and make progress. So you have your small daily goals that you set for yourself, like the one you already did of walking down the sidewalk and back. Then you have your big goals and one ultimate goal, would be a good idea to wright these down so you can look at them to remind yourself why you are doing this and what you are working towards. The big goals would be something like walking to that store, and getting a guide dog, being able to take the bus, but you decide what you want them to be. So those small daily goals are adding up till you can achieve those big goals. Finally you have that one ultimate goal, would be something like 'being totally independent' or whatever you want it to be. Those big goals add up till you have reached that one ultimate goal you are working towards.
The 'blueprint' you are going to make is your plan you come up with for each time you are working towards a goal. You come up with that plan, like you got your dad on the phone, and determined where you were going to walk so you could reach your goal for the day. If you really want something eventually you will get there, you just have to stick with it.
I hope that all makes sense

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 06:48 PM

Nikabee,
Another thing about adjusting the blueprint in the moment -- another thing I realized just thinking about it, I tried my mom, she was busy, her estimated time of availability I knew would really be too long to let the anxiety fester. And she was my *preferred* person to be talking with. Generally, I would shut down right then and there. I'm not sure what even made me think of my dad. I did, though, instead of just giving up and having the whole thing end there.

Peg,
I think what's hard about the idea of retreating is I've always been taught NOT to retreat. Remember the thread where I described my phone issues, and while at the training center they tried to help me with that? They'd say whatever you do, no not panic and hang up. And if I did hang up they would urge me to immediately call back. That's just one example of my being taught that retreating *is* defeat. That retreating isn't something to be done. No matter how anxious I am, the most important thing is to get it taken care of, and taking time to regroup isn't the main thing. Going to be hard to think differently.

I'm not sure if you guys would really be so impressed, if you knew how truly short the distance was.

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 06:52 PM

peglem

05-16-2009, 07:37 PM

Peg,
I think what's hard about the idea of retreating is I've always been taught NOT to retreat. Remember the thread where I described my phone issues, and while at the training center they tried to help me with that? They'd say whatever you do, no not panic and hang up. And if I did hang up they would urge me to immediately call back. That's just one example of my being taught that retreating *is* defeat. That retreating isn't something to be done. No matter how anxious I am, the most important thing is to get it taken care of, and taking time to regroup isn't the main thing. Going to be hard to think differently.

I'm not sure if you guys would really be so impressed, if you knew how truly short the distance was.

The distance is not the important thing, setting and finding ways to reach a goal. If the most you could manage is one step outside your door...that would still be impressive.
The way the training center taught you DIDN"T WORK!!!
It sounds like it it just increased anxiety. Their methods probably work well for many people, but they didn't work for you. (Does this sound like somebody you know?) But, if something happens that threatens to send you into meltdown, isn't it comforting to know that you can temporarily retreat (not fail) until you can process what happened and formulate a way to deal with it if it happens again? Maybe retreat isn't the right word...You don't have to push yourself to the point that you can't handle it. Sorry, I thought that might make you feel less anxious, knowing you had a kind of safety net.

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 09:27 PM

The distance is not the important thing, setting and finding ways to reach a goal. If the most you could manage is one step outside your door...that would still be impressive.
The way the training center taught you DIDN"T WORK!!!
It sounds like it it just increased anxiety. Their methods probably work well for many people, but they didn't work for you. (Does this sound like somebody you know?) But, if something happens that threatens to send you into meltdown, isn't it comforting to know that you can temporarily retreat (not fail) until you can process what happened and formulate a way to deal with it if it happens again? Maybe retreat isn't the right word...You don't have to push yourself to the point that you can't handle it. Sorry, I thought that might make you feel less anxious, knowing you had a kind of safety net.

LOL What you said about the methods not working seems very familiar. I wonder where I've heard that before. lol

It's nice to have someone point blank validate for me that their methods may work for others but not for me. Several people have seemed understanding when I've explained the situation, but others, when I make comments that their methods didn't work for me, have told me that obviously I just rejected the help they were trying to give me. I've heard that so much while on one level I think I still believed it was a "methods didn't work for me" issue, on the other hand I've heard the negative things, I rejected the help and am blaming them for my own failure, that I've gotten to where on another level I've started believing it. Yeah. I'm going to choose to go to a training facility, under my own volition (it was voluntary, by no means mandated by anyone), to get help to become independent, and I'm going to waste four months of my life (that by the way was sarcasm).

It wasn't just O&M, or just communications (where you work on things like phone usage, kind of goes hand in hand with O&M), but I had struggles with several areas. I was told that I would be there as long as it takes, and a lot of it depended on how I felt about it, and I felt I needed more time (though at the same time wanted out of what had become an emotionally toxic environment -- not by all staff/classes/situations but some). I kept saying I still wasn't feeling confident, but I'd shown ability to do the stuff that was part of my training (even if not consistently), so by their standards I was ready to be pushed out into the real world. I could go on and on. It got pretty bureaucratic.

Anyway, I've always wanted to believe it was a methods didn't work scenario, not necessarily blaming them (lots of people find great help and success there -- it's not inherently a bad place), but I had it pounded into my head that it was me rejecting and then blaming so much it got to the point where I kind of have been believing that's what the problem must be. Nice to have someone validate my gut feelings on the matter.

I think retreat is an okay word -- I would have loved to be able to retreat when stressed. I spent so much time suppressing suppressing suppressing suppressing suppressing suppressing to avoid a public meltdown, then, in occupational therapy, wound up having a meltdown when I could suppress no more. I think it was my very first non-parent-present public meltdown I had ever had in what was then 23 years. Fortunately, the OT was understanding, actually she was all about finding methods that work for the individual, but her hands were kind of tied.

I didn't mean to go off on a rant. I just wanted to say it is nice to have you validate what I've known at the gut level all this time but had different information (by people who were well-meaning, I know) encoded into my brain.

I think there's a LOT of stuff I need to unencode.

peglem

05-16-2009, 09:47 PM

Aspigander

05-16-2009, 10:05 PM

Good. I see it as exactly the same thing that is being done to Allie. Instead of trying to make a program that works for her, they are trying to force her to fit their program. You didn't reject their help, because it wasn't helping, it was making things worse. And that's why its such a monumental task now for you to attempt these things on your own- lots of trauma associated with it. I bet approaching it on your own terms will work better-you know how hard to push, and when to say enough for now.

Yeah, it does sound like what's being done to Allie. It's very frustrating when someone is teaching you a certain way, it's not working, and they try to mold you to fit the program. And then they chew you out each time you fail at what they're trying to teach you, how they're trying to do it. I don't know about Allie, but I felt bad, because I knew it was frustrating to them, and tended to internalize it (if I weren't having so much trouble, they wouldn't be frustrated with me).