NIghttime training

[MomOTwins]

OK, I've gotten motivated (yet again) to work to resolve Andrew's nighttime wetting issue. He is totally bathroom trained during the day, but for some reason still isn't staying dry at night. We've done the following: fluid reduction after dinner, "sit down for a while" bathroom break just before bedtime, even tried the get up at 11:00 before Mom and Dad go to bed. Some nights he stays completely dry (pull-up dry), some mornings he gets up with a wet pull-up, some mornings he gets up with a wet bed/wet pull-up.

The interesting thing - during our April trip to Grandma and Grandpa's house, he stayed dry (with only one wet pull-up over 6 days)!

Help! Bribes don't work, encouragment produces a smile and a high-five but no difference in behavior, and this is a 12-yr. old kid who can control his bodily functions during the day. He also doesn't seem to mind sleeping in a wet bed (yech).

Is our next option one of those alarm systems? If so, does anyone have any experience with them?

Kim

[sociologygeek]

It may not hurt to see a urologist to make sure there isn't a physical reason for the bedwetting.. for myself, my incontinence seems to be prevalent during the day, but not at night.. go figure..however, i often flood in the morning before i can get to the bathroom, so i need protection 24/7.. but, i am able to use the bathroom sometimes. Incontinence/bedwetting is not easy to live with. I'm thankful for the control i do have.

Perhaps he doesn't make enough of the antidiuretic hormone at night, thats a hormone that decreases and concentrates urine production at night, so there's less fluid production at night.. Does decreasing fluids help? As far as the wet bed and wet pullup issue.. try using bedpads. You can get them in all shapes and sizes. For my own needs, i get blue pads..although theyre less used for nighttime protection, and more for airing out.. they wouldnt be large enough to cover my bed. I do occasionally deal with bedwetting, but not as nearly as often as daytime incontinnece.. i wish i knew why.. I think it's because i do have some control...a person with no control would wet day and night.. but believe me, the morning floods more than "makes up" for any lack of bedwetting :(

My advice is to see a urologist to make sure everyhitng works the way its supposed to. If that doesnt turn up anything, maybe a neurologist.. or not..

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Some people find eliminating dairy helps with nighttime bedwetting.

Your experience with good vs. wet nights might be traceable to quantities of
dairy consumed those days.

Keeping a food journal may help identify other food triggers too.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Kim, I've been waiting for progress on this front for a loooooooong time. We havent' even seen a dry pull-up yet.

Lately he's shown some interest in moving forward, yet we can't seem to get there. He refuses to go when I wake him (even when he asks me to)...I started thinking he wasn't 'awake' enough or something so started taking him into the bathroom, even helped him to the toilet AND pulled his pjs down...still refused :rolleyes:...

So I bought the alarm...only after discussing it with him first. He said he liked the idea, but then refused to use it when we got it...

So, no help from me...but I'll be watching this thread carefully! Hope some good ideas come forth...

[peglem]

I don't have any real advice. Just wanted to say Allie only has nighttime incontinence when she has strep or is yeasty.

[RathyKay]

Is our next option one of those alarm systems? If so, does anyone have any experience with them?
Let's see... Tom was a lousy sleeper (still is, but not nearly so bad), so nighttime accidents were never a problem. He got up; I put him on the toilet. But, we did use an alarm for Claire. She was a sound sleeper and didn't notice. We used pull-ups for night and that was it. Anyway, I *love* the alarm. That was one of the few things we used a sticker chart for. I graded flood, some, and a drip. Interestingly, she only had a couple of floods in the very beginning with the alarm. After that, the alarm woke her enough that she only did a little. Most of it ended up in the toilet.

Our method... she went before bed (duh). We connected the alarm. When the alarm went off, we both got up and she sat on the toilet. I just tossed a dry towel on the wet spot and we cleaned sheets in the morning. I gave her clean pajamas and underwear and she went back to bed. The first couple of times we did this, the alarm only went off one time during the night. Basically, she was only having one accident a night. So, after the first couple of nights, I didn't bother putting the alarm back on in the middle of the night; I just removed it.

It is important that they get out of bed, even if you know there is no more pee in them. Part of it is learning to wake up enough to go. One of the best things with these alarms is they pretty much go off right away (at least with girls), so they start to wake up in the act, not an hour later when *you* notice it.

The alarm documentation said something like the average kid takes 10 weeks (or was it 12?). Claire was average. (And that time included the two weeks dry.) It also said kids typically have a relapse and when they do, bring out the alarm again. She did and we did and all was fine. I believe I had her go two weeks dry every night before we put it away. We did awards. First night dry was a Reese's peanut butter cup (Pre-nutty diet days). Next prize was McDonald's for lunch and I think it was three nights dry - may have been five days. That took longer than I expected. She could get two nights, but failed on a third. I probably loaded her up with water, too. That's the other nice thing with the alarm. Don't limit fluids. You want them to learn to sense a full bladder and get up. Anyway, I remember at two weeks dry, in addition to giving up the alarm, we went to ToysRUs to celebrate.

Anyway, I give the alarm two thumbs up. One other thought, though... Tom began having accidents while taking Depakene (seizure med). Turns out, incontinence is a side effect. He was getting up 2, 3 and 4 times a night, sitting on the toilet each time (and doing nothing). And an hour later he'd have an accident!:mad::eek: Once we realized it was a side effect, we put him in pull-ups for the night and I was much happier, although still low on sleep. Anyway, if you're dealing with med side effects, it might be a losing battle.

[roadracer]

and this is a 12-yr. old kid who can control his bodily functions during the day.


also wanted to add, some kids dont outgrow it
from what I understand, a alarm is recommended for kids around 10 years old and older, and for kids that age and older, a alarm only works for half of them, and of that other half a bunch will never outgrow it. So if a alarm does not work there are meds the doctor can give that work with some. Not all those alarms are created equal, some are a total waist of money, and others are so sensitive they go off ten times a night with 'false alarms'. Definitely talk to the doctor and probably a urologist or whatever doctor you would see for this because at the age of 12 there could be problems causing this and the chance that he could need meds.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

My mom mentioned meds to me also when I raised this up to her a few months back...

I'm still a little confused, perhaps someone can explain this to me, I am of the understanding that nighttime 'training' happens naturally that no 'intervention' is typically necessary...is that true?

Anyway, with this understanding I put Coley in pull-ups each night, and have been on the look-out for a dry one. One has not come yet.

My understanding, which I'm thinking is wrong, but can't get clarification on, is that at the first sign of night-time control (a dry night)...is when you should begin encouraging/working toward it...is that right?

So, I mentioned to my mom that he's 6 and still no signs...so she mentioned the meds and to talk to the doc. So I mentioned it to his psych, since we saw him first...he told me typical nighttime 'control' can be anywhere between 4 & 8, and boys typically go later...and with the additional developmental issues, I shouldn't worry or whatever...unless he shows interest...he mentioned the alarms...and said that they are effective anywhere over 4yrs and that they are much more effective than meds...because generally it is just a matter of learning to 'wake' when the urge strikes...

But for some there are biological issues, and in these cases the meds help. So from that, he suggested the alarm first...but only if Coley expresses interest...motivation MUST be there.

My mom said the meds were used quite frequently when I was a kid...but that it was more of a 'convience' thing for most...basically using the meds until the child learned...but it didn't eliminate the trial & error phase...but did allow for a more 'mature' age when going through it...

I read a lot trying to figure out what to do, between all these conversations...from what I understand they do not prescribe the meds these days unless there is a biological issue...

With that in mind, you could make an appointment, pick up an alarm (amazon is great for figuring out which are superior) and begin using it...if it works, cancel the appointment, if it doesn't then you likely have a larger issue, and have that additional information for the doc.

The alarms I looked at claimed to work within days, but like Kathy mentioned, they were to stay on for 2 dry weeks before removing it. So many say the process takes 3 weeks or something.

You should know almost immediately if the alarm is going to work or not.

Hope that adds something...

[roadracer]

My mom mentioned meds to me also when I raised this up to her a few months back...

I'm still a little confused, perhaps someone can explain this to me, I am of the understanding that nighttime 'training' happens naturally that no 'intervention' is typically necessary...is that true?

I read a lot trying to figure out what to do, between all these conversations...from what I understand they do not prescribe the meds these days unless there is a biological issue...


Coley is still young enough that the bed wetting is 'normal', so I wouldnt worry about it to much, but if he becomes 12 and still has the problem then they might recommend meds, as you are starting to get beyond the 'normal' range, if he still has the problem when he is say, 15 then there is a good chance he is not going to outgrow it. So if your doctor said normally by age 8, then you still got awhile before it is not 'normal' anymore.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I agree! I put the alarm away & I'm waiting for him to ask to use it...I think it made him nervous when he saw it...not htat it's scary looking, it's a "new" thing.

I tried to show him, but it just made him more anxious. UGH!

I'm not concerned at all at this point...but often wonder if I should be doing something????? Does this happen on it's own? Because I'm not doing anything ot help it along...

[RathyKay]

I'm still a little confused, perhaps someone can explain this to me, I am of the understanding that nighttime 'training' happens naturally that no 'intervention' is typically necessary...is that true?
I remember reading in whatever child development book I had for Samantha that you should ignore your mom when she tells you that you were potty trained at one year (or whatever). I went on the early side for training my kids, compared to many these days. Samantha was 18 months old. Anyway, my mom is pretty easy going and didn't give me a hard time. But... she did say that *her* mother gave her a hard time about starting at a year. She said my mom was trained at six months. My mom found this hard to believe, but then her SIL's mom said the same thing. So... history lesson... when you are dealing with cloth diapers and washing them by hand (no clothes washers), you get your kids out of diapers as fast as possible. Yes, their moms were holding them on a pot and it wasn't completely independent. But, they had self-control and they were going regularly.

Samantha was in cloth diapers until she was potty trained. We had one weekend of serious training and she figured it all out at night by herself. Claire is a stockier build. She outgrew the rubber panties for the cloth diapers and we switched to disposables before potty training. I think she lost that wet feeling. Wet disposables aren't nearly as uncomfortable as wet cloth diapers. I think with cloth, kids tend to pick it up much quicker.

The alarm I bought said your child should be five before using it. I'm not so sure that I got Claire's buy-in on it, but she's much easier going than Coley. You might let Coley play with it a bit. Hold the end in water and listen to the alarm so he has an idea what to expect. (Obviously, don't put the battery end in the water.) And, I'm not sure how long ours said for it to work, but I know it was longer than three weeks. Yes, we saw progress right away, from a couple of days of all out flood, to just a little bit, but she used it at least several weeks before she made it two weeks dry. Oh, and she never had a dry pull-up. I didn't think it would happen. She just slept too soundly and with those pull-ups, you only feel the wet for a short time before it's quickly absorbed.

And meds!?!? At least try training with an alarm first! Sorry, I need to go pick up my kids.

[froggy]

We saw lots of variation in night time dryness with our boys. My oldest son was 9.5 yrs old. My 2nd son was 7. My 3rd son was less than 2yrs old. I was told not to worry until age 12.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Thanks Kathy!

[MomOTwins]

Thanks to everyone for the words of encouragement.

Just a quick update:

We've already evaluated for urological issues - nothing there. :(
His meds don't include this as a side-effect, so nothing there. :(

Diet-wise - can't find any association with specific foods, and we ate all the same stuff on vacation that we'd normally eat at home. :(

I think this is really a matter of it not being "important" enough to register and for him to get out of bed to address the full bladder, because the pull-ups do a good job containing everything.

I think I'm going to break down and buy the alarm system and see how we do.

Thanks again, everyone!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I think that's what it boils down to with Coley too...after all those pull-ups do a great job, what's the problem? :rolleyes:

Coley potty trained by going bottomless. I considered a similar approach with night-time, but that would be such a pain...sheets & clothes, UGH!

I guess it would be nothing new for us though, seems everything with Coley goes back to grandma's day in terms of working...we can't eat anything packaged...just regula 'ole meat & taters & greens...and old fashioned home remedies for sicknesses...I guess it would stand to reason that he's gotta learn this that way too...

I can't imagine telling him he can't have a pull-up at night though...EEEK! Talk about panic!

Waiting seems like a bad idea too...just gets him more comfortable with the pull-ups...oh, why can't he just be open to doing things in a straight forward way...http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_2_100.gif

[RathyKay]

Kristen, I kind of agree that waiting will not help. I'm not sure when summer vacation starts for you, but that's the perfect time to set it up and go. Count up your pull-ups and don't buy any more. (I'm sorry Coley, but you can't wear pull-ups in first grade.) As I said, Claire was pretty quick to stopping the all-out flood. Yes, you'll be washing sheets and pajamas every morning, but it's only temporary. Plus, in the summer, you shouldn't have as many blankets to wash. Good luck!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I know you're right Kathy. Thanks for the reality smack! :p

[roadracer]

I am not sure if you know they make these big underpad things, so you could throw one of those on the bed so you dont have to wash the sheets every morning while using the alarm, etc.

[MomOTwins]

Thanks for the reminder, Roadracer! I've got some of those, but I bet I should buy a few more for the transition to nighttime dryness.

I guess I should think of this as training for a "triathalon", we've got the daytime bathroom issues resolved, the hygiene issues resolved (deodorant, toothbrushing, face washing), and now we are training for the home stretch (nighttime dryness)! Sometimes it feels as though I'm doing the whole 26 miles on my own, but I know it is a challenge for him, also. Guess we'll reach the finish line eventually...but the ride is sometimes really tough.

[roadracer]

well I am 25 and still got some issues. Sure I know how to do everything hygiene wise that needs done, but if I forget to look at my morning/night routine list I forget things, it is the darn absent minded thing. So it is nice to get as far as you can but you might still be asking him things like if he has taken a shower when he is 25. :o so you might get to the finish, or you might get to the finishing stretch and that is as far as you get.

[tgrimes]

Hi Momotwins -
I see that you decided to go ahead and buy the alarm, but just wanted to add that in our case the advice to 'make it as uncomfortable as possible' helped, we took off everything except the plastic mattress cover and that did it. Of course that made going to sleep uncomfortabe too, but summertime coming up!

[MomOTwins]

Grimey, I'd love to do this, but he is one of those kids who could sleep on rocks/nails/cactus! I actually caught him swimming on his back in the pool and almost dozing off! Yep, he is part fish/part boy....his brother thinks that maybe he is part-Aquaman.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Grimey, that's kinda the approach we were forced into with Coley...tried the whole potty training thing...but then it was like once he figured it out the alure was gone and he liked the pull-ups better or whatever...so finally I had to just keep him naked...and the really annoying thing of it all was that we had to do 2 trainings, one for #1 and one for #2...somehow he didn't 'get' the whole idea and at 4yo I had to finally strip him down when he got home form pre-school for #2...:rolleyes:

So this is why I'm thinking along the same lines for night time...UGH!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Alrighty folks..cross your fingers & say a few prayers!

DH just left for a late night shift (unusual for him but there is an emergency job that needs doing) The kids waved bye from upstairs and before they ran off I announced the PJ race...Coley began to get dressed and called "time-out!...I'm out of pull-ups!"

GASP! :eek:

He ran to the storage closet and on the way said "If there is none there I'm going to have to go with underware"

Swallowing hard I asked him if he'd like to try doing underware.

His response: "I'm gonna have to" with a smile on his face.

He continued to get dressed, and I asked if he'd like to use the alarm just to be on the safe side, and he agreed.

Wish us luck! Updates tomorrow!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, I wouldn't say it was a complete success, but it's a start...

He woke at 11:30 with the alarm. He hopped out of bed, all groggy & what not, I ran up ( I was still waiting for DH to come home) helped him to the bathroom...he didn't stop peeing as he should have, but the alarm did save the sheets! :D

I got him changed after he finished in the bathroom, but he wouldn't put the alarm back on. I tried to convince him to, but had a couple thoughts:

1) He's emptied his bladder and won't be eating/drinking more before morning &

2) we didn't have these things growing up!

So I just made sure there was lots of protection on the bed and allowed him to go back to sleep without the alarm.

I called DH to give him the update and to find out how the job was going...he wasn't going to be home for a while, so I figured I could just sneak up and put the alarm back on Coley while he slept...so I waited a bit and snuck in...he totally wouldn't let me, in his sleep!!!! I managed to put it on his PJs and figured it might not catch the wetting right at the beginning, but hopefully it would before it got too out of control, IF he even did wet again....and off to bed I went!

At 3:30 he woke again...soaked! Darn it! Got him all changed, this time needed to rip the top sheet off, put a new beach towel on top of his sheets AND change his top & bottoms...so much for thinking he'd be relatively empty...he refused to put the alarm on again too.

He got up this morning with his alarm clock, ran to the bathroom and that was that!

I need to wash his sheets today...but not so bad!

DH picked up some pull-ups just in case...but I'm thinking, heck I'll just do this the old fashioned way...get sheets, dry PJ's & towels ready before bed, and resign myself to the fact that I'll be doing sheets daily for a while...what ever works right.

I gave him rewards & big kisses this morning for being so brave & for taking those first steps! :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Oh Kim...I'm a little slow on the uptake this morning with the evening's 'activities' and all...meant to ask how you & Andrew are doing...

[MomOTwins]

Hey Kristen,

I bought the alarm last week, decided to hold off on the big push until after school got out (next Thursday) as I know what a pill Andrew is when he doesn't get a good night's sleep. Why put his teaching team through that kind of grief on the last week of school? We'll see how it works starting next week.

My biggest issue - our bedroom is downstairs and the boys' room is upstairs, so I bet I won't hear the alarm. I've got a sofabed in my office upstairs, so I think I'll be sleeping on that for at least a few nights while we try to get the system going. Andrew is such a deep sleeper that I'll bet that I'm the only one that the alarm will be waking in the middle of the night!

I'll keep you folks updated!

Kim

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Which one did you get?

The one we have vibrates & alarms. Coley is a REALLY heavy sleeper too, but had no problem getting up, although I wouldn't exactly say he was awake.

I heard the alarm downstairs last night, he was in his bed with the door shut almost all the way, I was in the livingroom watching TV and listening to the phone ringing waiting for DH to pick-up & I heard it...course if I were asleep I'm not sure if it would have woken me up that far away...so it probably does make sense to sleep closer to him.

My bedroom is over the garage and Coley's is almost on the completely opposite side of the house. I was worried that I wouldn't hear it while sleeping too...so I just made sure he had a change of clothes and knew what to do if the alarm goes off & I wasn't right there when he woke up.

Just told him to STOP peeing & dash to the bathroom. If I'm not there by the time he finishes then he could either wake me, or change himself & go back to bed. I bet Andrew will be able to handle that with no problem!

Can't wait to hear your updates...

KJ

[MomOTwins]

Kristen,

We ended up going with a Malem that has (according to the label) alarm, vibration, and a light. I couldn't see any light when I played around with it, but jeeze, the alarm is loud! I think I'll be able to hear it from the other end of the house (same floor) and it will still allow his brother to sleep through the middle of the night wake-up call. We'll see!

Kim

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Coley had his first dry night last night!! No alarms nothin! Just slept and didn't pee! I did hear him get up & go to the bathroom once at about 9ish...

[peglem]

WTG Coley!!!!!

[MomOTwins]

Yahoo!!!! Good job Coley!!!

[RathyKay]

Happy Snoopy dance! Happy Snoopy dance! (I was just coming to see how it was going.)

[Rolling Along]

Here is an article discussing a possible link between gluten and urinary incontinence:

http://www.celiac.com/articles/21636/1/Gluten-Sensitivity-and-Bladder-Disease/Page1.html

I wonder if other foods besides dairy are a possibility?

[Isabelle]

interesting site...my son is double incontinent because of the drugs, but before drugs since very young had problems "feeling" the need drugs just made it worse.....now, he is drug-free for 3 years but the only improvement... stopped wetting his bed....most of the time....

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Kim, how's Andrew doing?

We are pretty much done...Coley isn't wearing it anymore and rarely has an accident. It's not unusual for him to get up during the night to use the bathroom either.

We got him a reward last month:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y149/KJ2005/Rollerbuddy-1.jpg

I have a funny story for ya...

The night before his first day of school Coley was SOOO nervous! The kid couldn't sleep, we heard him rumbling around 1/2 the night, but he never came & got us, so we figured unless he disturbes Audrey...well we'd just let him work it out...

So, we go to bed at 11pm and DH notices his bedroom door wide open, usually it's only open a couple inches. So he goes to shut it, and sees Coley is all ready for school. He's got his clothes & his sneakers already on. :p

Course I don't want to wake him, the kid is likely exhausted from being up so long with nerves...so I just kinda cross my fingers and hope we don't have a fiasco in the morning with an accident & his clothes needing to be changed...

He gets up, comes down for breakfast, no accidents, whew! Barely eats a thing, hardly able to hold his head up he's so tired, and just keeps saying he's nervous...poor kid, I felt so bad...

So, he goes off to school and I head upstairs to tidy up...

Guess what I found...the package & the instructions (which convienently have loads of images on how to set it up) on the floor of his room...he had obviously thought about the risk of accident with his little plan to get ready for school the night before...

funny huh!