The Mental Blueprint

[Aspigander]

Okay, I know I've made a few mentions of what I call a 'mental blueprint' here. I just got finished making a post in another thread, in response to a video clip that was being talked about, where the person had a meltdown. Watching that video, I could see with no problem whatsoever that what happened was a breakdown of this person's 'mental blueprint'. I wanted to give this topic of mental blueprint its own thread, to hopefully help those with ASD's who may form their own mental blueprint, and possibly help NT's to understand what goes on in regards to what I call the 'mental blueprint', and what a collapse in the blueprint can mean. Here is what I posted in that thread:

Wow. That was definitely a meltdown. Just over 3:30 into the video, when she mentioned she gets home and there's certain things she likes, I got to thinking, this is EXACTLY what I refer to when I use the term 'mental blueprint'. She had certain things she liked. I have no doubt in my mind she formed a 'mental blueprint', or an idea in her head of how she expected things to go with the CH crew. She had that idea in her head, that mental blueprint, and that blueprint was shattered when they brought her and her daughter back in. I think it goes wayyyy beyond not liking the 'puke green' walls or the TV being moved or the loveseat being taken out. Those were part of it, but they were part of her 'blueprint' and it's not just that those little things being disrupted were not what she would have chosen, it's that those things being disrupted turned her mental blueprint upside down and shattered it. Result? Full head on anxiety meltdown.

I have to say, this is by far the #1 cause of my meltdowns. I am always trying to form a plan in my mind, of how things are going to go. An example is if my mom and I are planning to do something, I will want to know what time it will happen so that I can put it in my blueprint. This drives her nuts because sometimes she doesn't really know what time. If she can't give me a time, it will cause some anxiety because I am "on edge" from not being able to factor that into my blueprint, and have to wonder about it until further notice. If she does give me a time, it is helpful because then I have crucial information to put into my mental blueprint. Of course, if something comes up and the time changes, or heaven forbid the day changes, then my whole blueprint goes off kilter. And wow, the anxiety. This is just the thing that can lead to meltdown.

Back to the video clip, there were so many things that this woman had in her mental blueprint, her idea of how things are going to go, the wall colors, the TV placement, the furniture, not one but several details were SO different than what was in her blueprint. She didn't even use the term 'mental blueprint' (I think I coined the term lol) but I knew without a doubt when I saw that meltdown that that was *exactly* what the problem was. She couldn't even suppress *any* of the anxiety because just about everything was different than how she'd expected it.

So I'm guessing it's an ASD thing, at least an aspie thing, to form this mental blueprint. And when things happen that go against our blueprint, our anxiety goes through the roof.

Does all of that make sense?

ETA: Forgot to say something when I made this post.

You know, this can really create a lot of problems when this makes the aspie/ASD look like a total ingrate. I don't know how many times my mom has told me that she gets no appreciation from me when she tries to help me with something. Often, what happens, is she'll do something (take my example from a few days ago about her emailing the cleaning service about organizing cupboards) that is outside of my blueprint, and I will get anxious. Possibly have a meltdown. That's why I was so afraid of addressing her about what she did with the email, and why I just sent her the link to the thread (which she found amusing, for some reason...well, amusement is better than the anger I'd feared, right?). In fact she didn't understand why I was so afraid she'd be upset (that's probably what she found amusing). It was that had I just addressed her on it, in the usual way, telling her that went against my blueprint (I think she considers blueprint a four letter word now lol), she would likely have gone on the defensive, I would have gotten more anxious, she would have called me unappreciative, reminded me how close she is to just not helping me, etc. etc., and it just could have ended so badly. I get that NT's don't really understand the power of the mental blueprint (interestingly, I think NT's to some extent form their own blueprints, but with their more flexible neurology and big filters as Mili calls it, they can adjust that blueprint with little thought, and don't understand why it's so hard for us to just adjust the blueprint).

Okay, let's go back to the Clean House video clip that was posted in the other thread. An NT would probably look at that and think how unappreciative and ungrateful she was. Here this crew came in, got all the clutter out, tried to be helpful, and she has what probably looked to them like a big adult temper tantrum. She was just nitpicking about wall color (relatively easily changed) and TV placement (easily moved back to original location). In fact, when the one guy said let's look at the positives, from the outside looking in I could see the positives, the clutter was gone, TV could be moved back, etc., but if it were me I think I'd have had the exact same response she did (she said there were no positives). Well I could immediately see it was not just an issue of her being a nitpicky ingrate that it would look like to an NT. I could tell instantly that it was totally a blueprint issue. And in this case it was quite a severe blueprint issue. It's not that she was unappreciative, it's that she was knocked so off kilter by the discrepancy between her blueprint and how it actually turned out, that she went into pure survival mode!

I just wanted to add that in there, to help NT's understand that when we have meltdowns due to things going against the mental blueprint, it's not that we are unappreciative of your efforts. It's that it really does throw us off kilter.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

It totally makes sense!

Here's a thought...I don't know if it'll help...but what if (in your example) when your mom can't/doesn't give you an exact time, you form several optional blueprints...like print #1: Our plans occur at X time, print #2 our plans occur at Y time, etc.

Of course one is likely to be preferred to you, you could even tell your mom which you'd prefer, but in the end if you have different options in your head, could this eleviate some anxiety if it doens't occur at your preferred or your preconceived time?

[Aspigander]

I'm not entirely sure I understand...how many blueprints am I supposed to create? Not to mention, I would need her input as to what times to enter into the blueprint. Otherwise I would just be guessing random times and I think driving myself nuts. If I asked her to give me, say, five possible times, I think that would probably drive her nuts (heck, it drives her nuts when I ask for *one* planned time).

It does help somewhat if she gives me a relatively short 'range' of times, like "we will do X between 5pm and 7pm." While I would prefer a more exact estimate, a two hour range isn't *too* horrible. But often she will say: "We will do X after 5pm". That gets tricky. Will it still happen at a reasonable hour? Will it happen that day even, because it might get so late after 5pm that one or both of us don't want to do it? Just saying it will happen sometime after X time (without giving me a before Y time) or before X time without giving me an after Y time, it really makes things tricky when trying to form a blueprint. And if the X and Y times are too wide a range, it gets tricky as well. See what I mean?

(Just a side note for everybody, as soon as I hit post on this I'm going to edit the original post and add something I forgot to put in when I typed it up.)

[peglem]

This is a stategy for compensating for deficits in on going appraisal and flexible thinking. And you could do as Kristin suggested, but there is no way you could plan for every contingency. Its a strategy that helps you, not a bad thing, unless, as you say, changes occur w/o you having time to adjust your blueprint.

I might add (though I know you were not educated as an autistic person) that this is one of the big problems with education in autism. They think an autistic person needs routine, has to have it. They actually help design the blueprints. This would be okay as a coping strategy until the deficits are addressed...but they don't try to address them. The world is not going to sit still and follow my child's blueprint. What they need to look at is how to get her to deal with change and novelty and eventually how to even enjoy it, otherwise she is locked into a cage of sameness.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well you can logically figure out that 'after 5:00' means "After 5:00, but before say 8:00 (whatever is too late), right?

So from there you could think, well, we need to eat dinner in that time. You need to get some laundry done too...oh yeah and wanted to hop on the computer too...

Ok, so you've got 4 things to do, and 1 is a moving target...

So let's say I check with mom at 5 and she's not ready...I could get that laundry started and maybe we'll head out by 6...

etc. etc.

just kinda 'imagining' different scenarios, so that you aren't stuck in a rigid idea that could break with the slightest deviation.

After thinking of different scenarios, you might decide that having dinner at 5, heading out at 6, doing laundry when you return, and popping on the computer while it's running seems like the best plan to you...then you could say to your mom...ok, after 5 sounds good...I'd like it if we could go around 6 because I'd like to eat before hand. She might say ok, it's a plan, or she might say...oh 6 probably won't work for me, cuz if we haven't left by then I'd like to catch the news before we leave...ok, now you have more information..."ok, how's 6:30 then?" see what I mean?

Of course I'm assuming that 5 and 5:15 are roughly the same too, so that you wouldn't have to think of a scenario for each and every say 5 minute interval...is that right?

[Aspigander]

This is a stategy for compensating for deficits in on going appraisal and flexible thinking. And you could do as Kristin suggested, but there is no way you could plan for every contingency. Its a strategy that helps you, not a bad thing, unless, as you say, changes occur w/o you having time to adjust your blueprint.


Ah, thank you! I knew it had to be a strategy for something, but wasn't sure what. I was wanting to say a strategy for 'damage control' against anxiety, but that couldn't be it because when my blueprint backfires, it causes MORE anxiety than there ever would have been had I not created the blueprint.

Your last sentence there reminded me of a story. Here's something that happened well over a year ago.

One of my cats used to have a pica problem -- that is, she would indulge in inedible snackage. Strings and feathers seemed to be her favorite (now she is not allowed toys with strings and feathers, unless it is a toy I am interactively using with her and putting away when unsupervised). Anyway, this has caused constipation and risk of intestinal blockage (fortunately she never did get blocked). Anyway, one morning I took her in, because she was constipated. The vet took an X-ray, saw there was something there, and decided to hospitalize her until she pooped, then they would examine the poop to see what she'd eaten that time. I asked that, if she didn't poop in time to discharge her that day, if I could still come see her (my mom was with me). The vet said yes. Of course I could come see her later that day, whether she would be discharged or not. My mom agreed we could come back later that day to see Fiona. Anytime until closing time, 7pm. Just call ahead.

That evening, my mom was going somewhere with some friends of hers, but ASSURED me that she would get home in time to go see Fiona. Don't worry, we would DEFINITELY be going to see her. Shortly before 6pm I talked to her and she was still saying this. I called the vet's office to double-check this was okay. They checked with the vet and said yes, that would be fine. I said I wasn't sure when, may be close to closing time, but we'd definitely be there before they closed. At one point I think my mom said she expected to be home around 6pm. At 6:01pm I talked to my mom. I think her estimated time of arrival was now 6:30...this would be doable, if we left right at 6:30 we should get to the vet hospital with roughly 15 minutes to spare before they closed. What was happening was her estimated time of arrival to her house (where I was at) kept getting pushed back. Every time I'd talked to her she kept pushing back her ETA. So even though I knew if she got home at 6:30 we could still make it (assuming we didn't get behind an accident, hit too many red lights, etc.), I had no reason to believe she wouldn't keep pushing back her ETA. I asked her why she was pushing things so close, and she said in a mockingly ominous tone: "I like to live on the wild side." I think I had the first meltdown at this point, we ended the phone call and I know if I didn't start meltdown before hanging up I did just right after, was pretty much a sobbing mess, and kind of blurted out: "I know we're not going to get there!" Though still hoping we would, wanting to believe we would, because she was still assuring me that we definitely would. Remember, we're 59 minutes before closing time and she keeps pushing back her ETA, current ETA pushing things really close.

So 6:30, the ETA she gave me at 6:01, and she still had not put in an appearance. I tried to call her but she didn't answer. Around 6:40 she called me. She said we weren't going to make it. I started going into another meltdown, telling her she said we would. She said "there's just no way" and at that point I was in complete meltdown. I think she hung up on me at this point, not wanting to deal with the meltdown. My goodness, Fiona was basically fine, they were just trying to get her to poop, she'd probably be going home the next day, and you'd think by how I reacted that she wasn't expected to live through the night. That was the sheer desperation with which I wanted to get to her.

I might add (though I know you were not educated as an autistic person) that this is one of the big problems with education in autism. They think an autistic person needs routine, has to have it. They actually help design the blueprints. This would be okay as a coping strategy until the deficits are addressed...but they don't try to address them. The world is not going to sit still and follow my child's blueprint. What they need to look at is how to get her to deal with change and novelty and eventually how to even enjoy it, otherwise she is locked into a cage of sameness.

Really? I got the impression that, since you had mentioned before that Allie melts down at each little request the school makes of her, that it seemed that their requests were going against her blueprint.

[Aspigander]

Well you can logically figure out that 'after 5:00' means "After 5:00, but before say 8:00 (whatever is too late), right?


Too late seems to vary. After 8:00 might be too late one day for my mom, and another day perhaps 10:00 is too late.

So from there you could think, well, we need to eat dinner in that time. You need to get some laundry done too...oh yeah and wanted to hop on the computer too...

Ok, so you've got 4 things to do, and 1 is a moving target...

So let's say I check with mom at 5 and she's not ready...I could get that laundry started and maybe we'll head out by 6...

etc. etc.

just kinda 'imagining' different scenarios, so that you aren't stuck in a rigid idea that could break with the slightest deviation.

After thinking of different scenarios, you might decide that having dinner at 5, heading out at 6, doing laundry when you return, and popping on the computer while it's running seems like the best plan to you...then you could say to your mom...ok, after 5 sounds good...I'd like it if we could go around 6 because I'd like to eat before hand. She might say ok, it's a plan, or she might say...oh 6 probably won't work for me, cuz if we haven't left by then I'd like to catch the news before we leave...ok, now you have more information..."ok, how's 6:30 then?" see what I mean?


Well, here's the interesting thing. I really have no structure or blueprint inside the apartment, when it's just me. If my mom and I are planning to do something, I need the blueprint for when she will pick me up, or arrive at my apartment if we're doing something here, or whatever. Heck, I've been known to eat dinner after 10:00 PM when it's just me.

At her house, when I'm dog-sitting, I tend to have more of a blueprint inside of the house. Like I like to give the dogs dinner and put them in the yard to potty between 3 and 5pm. Then I'll feed Nera (who lives in one of the kennels) and my cats between 7-8pm. This way I'm not taking care of so many animals all at once. Let's say my mom picks me up, brings me over, and let's say it's after 8pm that we get there. By this time I usually assume she's fed the in the house dogs (that I feed and potty between 3-5pm when my parents are away). I know I'll probably need to do Nera and the cats, so I have that in my blueprint, but not the in the house dogs. My mom will spring on me: "By the way, do you think you could feed and potty the in the house dogs?" That has me off kilter. But at the apartment I don't have the same blueprint because I don't have to do as much (even when the cats are here, which they've stayed at the house recently because of my constant back and forth, I'm not so strict about when I feed them like I am with the dogs). It's weird, but my need for blueprint for when we're doing something together doesn't have anything to do with planning the whole day inside my apartment, but I still need to know when I will be out of the apartment. Does that make sense?

Of course I'm assuming that 5 and 5:15 are roughly the same too, so that you wouldn't have to think of a scenario for each and every say 5 minute interval...is that right?

Kristen, you would be surprised what difference a very few minutes makes for me. My mom might say "around 5", and in her mind she might pick me up between 4:45 and 5:15. My blueprint might have her picking me up between 4:55 and 5:05. 15 minutes is pretty big for me. There will be times when my mom says she'll call me back in half an hour, and if it is 32 minutes after she said that, I'll call her. You may notice in my response to Peglem that I referred to 6:01 a few times. I'm guessing NT's would probably say "Around 6:00" or even simply "6:00", but nope, I keyed right in on that and 6:01 was ingrained in my brain. So I am a VERY time sensitive person. lol

[peglem]

We're not sure why she's so "on edge" at school. I'm sure part of it is that she has things to communicate and no good way to do that. But, some of it is also that she doesn't eat very well at school. (At home we make sure she has something frequently...every 1/2 hour to an hour.) The things they want her to do are not appealing to her-sometimes I think because she's tired of that activity, sometimes because she wants to keep doing the previous activity, could be sensory (there are times here that the air conditioner coming on drives her crazy) and I think lots of times she sees no point to doing what they want her to do and she gets no satisfaction out of doing it, but she does feel like doing something that she knows is satisfying to her (like the songs on her comm device) but they won't let her. Maybe her head itches and she can't scratch it because that fricken helmet is in the way! It is for sure frustrating to try to figure out what's going on with her.
But, she has her little schedule on the wall that they refer to repeatedly throughout the day to let her know what's happening and what's coming up. I'm not saying she shouldn't have the schedule...but it should be a coping device until she can develop ongoing appraisal and flexible thinking, not a substitute for those things.
So, effectively, they are teaching her how to be good at being autistic, instead of addressing the things that make her autistic.

Like, I think having someone come in and clean for you is a good idea, the goal is accomplished...but you would prefer to be able to do it yourself. So, why not use the cleaning service, but keep working on being able to do it yourself so you won't need that forever.

[roadracer]

I might add (though I know you were not educated as an autistic person) that this is one of the big problems with education in autism. They think an autistic person needs routine, has to have it. They actually help design the blueprints. This would be okay as a coping strategy until the deficits are addressed...but they don't try to address them. The world is not going to sit still and follow my child's blueprint. What they need to look at is how to get her to deal with change and novelty and eventually how to even enjoy it, otherwise she is locked into a cage of sameness.

The school never taught me about routine, I learned that myself and with the help of my first cycling coach/trainer, who taught me to plan out every minute of everyday with my calendar, lists, charts. If I didn't put everything that I need to do day to day and accomplish on a list, chart, or calendar, it wont get done, because I just forget to do most of it, because I am doing something else.
Not sure if I go over board with it, but I have every ride/workout planed for the whole summer, with alternate workouts if it is raining, but I think I am pretty flexible because I can change the ride/workout plan around some according to how my racing is going.

Pretty much everything that I need to do gets put on a to do list according to how soon it needs done, then every night I look at the list and put some of that stuff on my calendar or daily routine lists. If I didn't plan ahead, nothing would get done and I wouldn't be able to function.
So for example if my mom told me we are going out to eat at 5, I just look at everything and switch around some of the stuff I have planed for the day.

What I do not like is if she says something like, "we are going out to eat sometime this evening" and they don't give me a time, or if they say "we decided to go to eat, if you are coming along lets go", those are the worst cause then I cant plan it out or don't have enough time to think about what the situation is going to be like and what possible obstacles are going to pop up or get in the way. I need enough time to think about all the possible scenarios I can think of so I can prepare. I usually don't go if they do that. But for the most part I think I am pretty flexible and it works and is my best methods.

[Aspigander]

Like, I think having someone come in and clean for you is a good idea, the goal is accomplished...but you would prefer to be able to do it yourself. So, why not use the cleaning service, but keep working on being able to do it yourself so you won't need that forever.

Ah, that's a good idea. Basically you're saying have them come in so I don't have bacteria and mold breeding around here, but at the same time take steps to improve my own cleaning and organizational skills?

[Aspigander]

What I do not like is if she says something like, "we are going out to eat sometime this evening" and they don't give me a time, or if they say "we decided to go to eat, if you are coming along lets go", those are the worst cause then I cant plan it out or don't have enough time to think about what the situation is going to be like and what possible obstacles are going to pop up or get in the way. I need enough time to think about all the possible scenarios I can think of so I can prepare. I usually don't go if they do that. But for the most part I think I am pretty flexible and it works and is my best methods.

Yeah. I hate when that sort of thing happens. Reminds me of the time, it was a Friday morning, my parents were going out of town, and I knew someone would pick me up and get me to their house so I could dog-sit. I didn't have a time nailed down, but I figured my mom would pick me up after work (she gets off just after 2pm) or my dad (he gets off at 4pm). I was going to call my mom and try to get a time pinned down.

Well, at 9:50am, my dad called. He was getting off work at 10am, and since he works like five minutes from my apartment, he wanted to get me on his way home. That put me in a big tail spin. Especially since I couldn't find something I needed to have with me (luckily he had something he could do before getting me, so that bought me some time).

Those really short notice 'changes' are pretty bad.

[roadracer]

What are the odds of this?!!?!! I made that post, and just a little bit ago the exact thing happened that I said I hate. My mother come up to my room and says "we are going out to eat for supper, we are leaving now so if you want to come along lets go" UGH, I said about it and then it just happened. I said No, so now they are bringing me back food from Burger King, so they are eating good food, and I have to eat the crap food. :( Then to make things worse and throw me into a mild meltdown mode my mom says "I guess you are not going along for my mothers day dinner", so I gave her all the money I had in my wallet to pay for it, but then she said not to worry about it, that she was just joking. I feel like the worst son ever.

[Aspigander]

Wow, sorry to hear that happened. Kind of ironic, eh?

Then to make things worse and throw me into a mild meltdown mode my mom says "I guess you are not going along for my mothers day dinner", so I gave her all the money I had in my wallet to pay for it, but then she said not to worry about it, that she was just joking. I feel like the worst son ever.

Okay, if I may make an assessment here? I know this is difficult, but do you think you could try not to internalize like you were doing in your last sentence? As Mili has said before, your neurology is separate from YOU. Your neurology kept you from being able to jump right up and go, so you declined. YOU are the one who tried to rectify the situation by offering to pay for her dinner, and she then declined. Do you see how you and your neurology are separate? It seems to me, from where I am sitting, that you're a pretty darn decent son and try to do the best you can, but have some neurology that poses some difficulty when it comes to spontaneity. That's not anyone's fault, not even yours. Can you see that?

Okay, do you have the same trouble communicating verbally with your parents that you do in other situations? I know from reading past posts that you seem to have trouble communicating with them. Do you try talking with them using your laptop? Do they use email? I'm thinking maybe you could at some point try to tell them with your communication device, or in an email, that you have trouble having things sprung on you like that, so sometimes you have to decline, and when you do it is really hurtful when they make little jokes like that? Do you think that might help?

[milivica]

I'm not entirely sure I understand...how many blueprints am I supposed to create?

Yes, what Peg said I was about to...flexible thinking and ongoing appraisal alleviates using mental blueprints. I mean, you just won't need them. When you gain flexible thinking and ongoing appraisal (that is, a feeling like 'no biggie, I can just move the tv back there') the reason you don't melt down is because your brain can communicate with itself (networking). All this talk about RDI, flexible thinking, ongoing appraisal, increased networking within your brain, is to bring more of the real you out instead of the neurology being a barrier. It is never to change you into an nt robot devoid of your real self. Juuuuust so ya know, in case I never said it.

What are the odds of this?!!?!! I made that post, and just a little bit ago the exact thing happened that I said I hate. My mother come up to my room and says "we are going out to eat for supper, we are leaving now so if you want to come along lets go" UGH, I said about it and then it just happened. I said No, so now they are bringing me back food from Burger King, so they are eating good food, and I have to eat the crap food. Then to make things worse and throw me into a mild meltdown mode my mom says "I guess you are not going along for my mothers day dinner", so I gave her all the money I had in my wallet to pay for it, but then she said not to worry about it, that she was just joking. I feel like the worst son ever.

OMG you're sooooo sweet. It sounds like you're not seeing that. I don't understand what your mom said about not coming to her Mother's Day dinner, but I couldn't hear her tone or read her so I can't judge. But your response was to try and do all you could at that very moment for her. You are such a sweet son. If Vince did that, I'd never take his money, but I would just feel like I do right now about what you did, "Awwwww, OMG how sweet".

Also, about your mom's 'joke', that was more like sarcasm, and there is always some truth in sarcasm, the only reason I would say something like that is if deep down I was afraid Vincent would not go, and I wanted him to go, so was sort of saying my fear out loud. It's important to her you are with her on her Mother's day dinner, that's what I hear 'between the lines' of what she said. She's not saying you coming with on her day is important to her, so she's saying it in nt.

And yeah, I CAN believe what you were just writing about happened to you...aspies are not exempt from Murphy's Law or irony or coincidence.

You are completely a sweety of a son, I'm sure she saw that in your offer. She's your mom, she knows your heart.

[roadracer]

Also, about your mom's 'joke', that was more like sarcasm, and there is always some truth in sarcasm, the only reason I would say something like that is if deep down I was afraid Vincent would not go, and I wanted him to go, so was sort of saying my fear out loud. It's important to her you are with her on her Mother's day dinner, that's what I hear 'between the lines' of what she said. She's not saying you coming with on her day is important to her, so she's saying it in nt.

I feel bad, like you said above I think there might have been that hidden message in it that I did not pick up on, and I should have went.
OMG you're sooooo sweet.
Thanks
Thinking positive, I still have a couple days, maybe I can still take her out to eat. I am not sure what to get her, last year I got her flowers for outside, but she is so good at killing them they didnt last to long, lol.:rolleyes:

flexible thinking and ongoing appraisal
what exactly is that? I think I am flexible, but would my not being able to jump up and go to dinner be a example of not being flexible? I don't know if I think about it in the right way? I have trouble with things like the jumping up and going to dinner because I cant prepare myself for it and it automatically sends my brain into overdrive, like my brain goes OMG, do I need a shower, do I stink, what are the menu options, I need to go over the ordering in my head, what if ____ happens, can I handle the sound of people chewing food, and so on and on. So I need the time to think those things over to prepare.
I don't think I understand what ongoing appraisal is?

Originally Posted by Aspigander
I'm thinking maybe you could at some point try to tell them with your communication device, or in an email, that you have trouble having things sprung on you like that, so sometimes you have to decline
Believe me they know that, I am 25 and things where much worse when I was younger, as in when I was little I threw horible meltdowns in situations like this, that included high pitched screaming that could burst a ear drum, crying, bitting, when that type of situation came up so I am sure they understand it by now. Now a meltdown is nothing like that anymore, but I am sure they understood it and why I didnt want to go, in the way they understand things anyway. Now if they could only understand WHY I act like this, like why I need the time to prepare.

[Aspigander]

Yes, what Peg said I was about to...flexible thinking and ongoing appraisal alleviates using mental blueprints. I mean, you just won't need them. When you gain flexible thinking and ongoing appraisal (that is, a feeling like 'no biggie, I can just move the tv back there') the reason you don't melt down is because your brain can communicate with itself (networking). All this talk about RDI, flexible thinking, ongoing appraisal, increased networking within your brain, is to bring more of the real you out instead of the neurology being a barrier. It is never to change you into an nt robot devoid of your real self. Juuuuust so ya know, in case I never said it.


About the bolded part -- because the neurology is separate from the real self, and the real self is impeded by the neurology, right?

You know, even before my AS diagnosis, I have often felt like my 'self', who I want to be, is impeded by or buried under *something*.

She's your mom, she knows your heart.

I have to say, I'm not sure if an NT parent is capable of understanding the ASD heart. Obviously, I don't know Roadracer's mom, but if she's anything like mine, all she sees is the aspie stuff. I cannot count how many times I have told my mom I want to get along, or some variant thereof (that is what is in my heart), and had her respond with "Not enough, obviously", or some variant thereof. It seems like all my mom ever sees is my neurology-driven idiosyncrasies and meltdowns, and assumes that's what is in my heart, because NT's have this idea that 'actions speak louder than words' not understanding that for aspies/autistics it is often the exact opposite. Things like what she says are always a crushing blow to hear (whether I have external signs of that or not, or whether or not it happens immediately or after it 'sinks in') because with my words I tell her what is in my heart (or my brain even) and she believes the opposite. I cannot tell you how many times my mom had taken it upon herself to point blank *tell* me what I am thinking and feeling, as if she were herself having my brain and heart, and often what she says couldn't be further from the truth.

That was long, but what I'm trying to say is that a mom doesn't necessarily know her offspring's heart just because she's the mom.

[Aspigander]

what exactly is that? I think I am flexible, but would my not being able to jump up and go to dinner be a example of not being flexible? I don't know if I think about it in the right way? I have trouble with things like the jumping up and going to dinner because I cant prepare myself for it and it automatically sends my brain into overdrive, like my brain goes OMG, do I need a shower, do I stink, what are the menu options, I need to go over the ordering in my head, what if ____ happens, can I handle the sound of people chewing food, and so on and on. So I need the time to think those things over to prepare.
I don't think I understand what ongoing appraisal is?


Okay, I'm not Mili and she can probably explain things better, but here's my understanding:

You may be able to be flexible if you have time to prepare. Like you said, you have to go through all of those processes. Because of this, you can't be flexible when given a split second to do so. Had you been given a leave time, you could have thought those things through, adjusted your 'blueprint' accordingly, etc. But given a split second notice, being unable to jump up and go would be an example of inflexibility. You just can't adjust to change in two seconds.

As for ongoing appraisal, I think this is where Mili's 'NT filter' analogy that she's mentioned before comes in. Using your above example, all the stuff you have to think about and prepare for, menu options, people chewing food, etc., NT's filter that stuff out. An NT would probably not give the menu a second thought until it was right in front of them, so they (unconsciously) 'appraise' the menu as being unimportant until they are seated in the restaurant. Other people chewing food gets filtered out (or appraised) as irrelevant to NT's, again, unconsciously. So I would say that ongoing appraisal is the ability to unconsciously filter or weed out irrelevant details on a continual basis.

Without ongoing appraisal, you cannot be flexible (at least not on split second notice).

So you (and I, and other ASD folks) have a much smaller filter than an NT does. You are conscious of a lot more details (like chewing noises) because you are unable to immediately and unconsciously appraise it as unimportant. The inflexibility (being unable to change direction on split second notice), where you were unable to jump up and go to dinner is BECAUSE of lack of ongoing appraisal, instead you need time to *consciously* appraise the situation, go over all the details, decide what you'll be able to handle, etc. Does that make sense?

(Mili, am I on the right track here?)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Firstly RR, I want to agree with Mili that your gesture was sweet! And I'm quite sure your mom saw that too.

Secondly I want to say that I think what your mom said was not very nice. But don't misinterpret that to mean that I think she intentionally said it to hurt you. I've got a great many relatives that are skilled in the fine art of "laying on the guilt" and this certainly qualifies as an advanced technique! Like Mili said, there is likely some truth behind it...she should have given you the lead time...I'm sure she knew that, and as soon as you reminded her, she made that comment...it may very well have been a knock to herself...

As for your feelings now, Mothers day is not here yet...you have PLENTY of time to celebrate it in a way that you will all enjoy!!! Take her out, make her dinner in, order in, whatever. I'm not your mom, but I'll tell you I'd prefer a finger painting WAY more than dinner! Sure dinner is nice, but that's better with & from Dad... I bet a kiss, a hug, a flower and a hand made card would be WAY better than you being able to hop up on a dime.

Alright, about hopping up on a dime...I TOTALLY wouldn't be able to do that either... I'm not the most flexible person in the world...but can be spontaneous...it's hard for me though. So it's not ALL about being nt...course Mili would likely be quick to point out that we all have traces of these types of things...some just more than others...

My point is just that being spontaneous is different than flexible thinking.

I like to plan things out in my head too. I think that's a pretty typical thing. People just kinda picture stuff as they move forward. I think that's where things divide (nt/asd). And where inflexibility occurs is when something gets thrown at you that is different than what you had preconceived notions about.

I have a tendency to try to get too much done...to overload myself so when one thing goes different I freak because suddenly my house of cards is falling. I don't have a melt-down but I DO spend a considerable amount of time beating myself up for not meeting my own demands, and concluding it's all because I deviated from my own schedule. Meantime everyone else has to suffer my mood.

I see that as being inflexible...rigid.

I think the ongoing appraisal is the act of thinking ahead, preparing for things so that there are no surprises to trip you up...

Like with the chewing or whatever...nt's can get annoyed with this type stuff too...and if there is enough will also get overloaded...it's likely worse because you KNOW it's an issue for you...nt's don't normally get bothered by it, so if there happens to be a screaming baby at one table, a lowsey waitress, a hair in your soup and then the woman at the next table snapping and chawing on her gum...that's generally when dinner will take a turn for the worse...

I think though it's all about how you handle that...you could chose to try to ignore it all...or you could simply say, this is horrible - I'm going somewhere else...or you could stew in it (which I think would drive ANY one batty) ...course some others might be able to lean over and politely alert the woman to the fact that her chewing is loud enough that others can hear it, maybe even walk over and assist the mother who is likely dying of embarrassment...and probably a ton of other options...it's the idea of being able to reassess the situation IN the moment...despite the distractions (I think????)...versus having a meltdown.

And Lauren, I think your mom might have also taken some advanced courses as well! Without knowing it all though...it is possible, like with RR's story, that the comment could be directed either way...it's hard to say.

My only advice is to tell your moms that the words she says hurt your feelings...there could be a real misunderstanding. :( I'm sorry!

I hope I haven't said things like this to Coley...but I'm sure I probably have...

[Aspigander]

And Lauren, I think your mom might have also taken some advanced courses as well! Without knowing it all though...it is possible, like with RR's story, that the comment could be directed either way...it's hard to say.

English (well maybe just aspie) translation please? Which of my mom's comments are you referring to? What do you mean directed either way?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I mean...sometimes we learn 'how' to communicate, our wording styles from our family...and even though words have specific meanings,

without knowing what all is the tone and the emotion behind it, it's really difficult to say what it really means...often emphasis on one word verus another can change the whole meaning...other times no matter how it's emphasized it can mean different things.

Your emotions about something will interpret it one way, while the emotions of the speaker mean it an entirely different way. As a general rule I think it's good to keep in mind that neither of your moms want to say things that are counterproductive, that means that they likely are not intentionally hurting your feelings...keeping that in mind will help when something feels like this is the motivations...because the conflict will help you say..."Mom, I don't understand why are you saying things that make me feel badly for something that is beyond my control?"

You should then get a response that will make things clear.

You didn't give enough specifics, but RR did...

His mom said "I guess you won't be coming to my Mother's day dinner"

He interpreted that as a bash against his ability to be flexible...because that's where HIS emotion is on it...he already feels badly and her words just played into that.

Although, she could have just been sad about it, knowing that she didn't give him a head up...she may have even been trying to think of a solution so that they could all go...so she thought out loud..."I guess you won't be coming..." She could have even been frustrated by her lack of forethought, and it could have even come out in her tone.

One way is mean sprited and directed AT RR, one is not mean but frustrated and directed at mom (or maybe dad), same words...same tone.

In this case, if RR said, "Mom I know it's mothers day mom and I'd really like to go, but right now I'm panicing..." then there would have been more dialogue to make it clear what the meaning was.

And it very well could be possible that her response to that statement revealed that she is angry at RR...but then it just opens up the opportunity to figure out a solution or at least offer more understanding.

I'm sure your mom understands you too. She may very well be at a loss...which isn't a reflection on you, because no parent has all (or even nearly all) of the answers...we are just human...and sometimes the stress of NOT knowing is worse than anything else.

Does that help?

[Aspigander]

You didn't give enough specifics, but RR did...

Okay, let me see if I can think of a scenario with enough specifics.

There was a time recently, I don't even remember what we were talking about. I was at my parents' house. It was one of those times where I perseverated, which is a not uncommon occurrence. She was trying to check email, I think I started out thinking it might be a quick exchange of information but it turned into me getting fixated on something (again I don't remember what). And of course she hates "conversations" while she's on the computer, so that probably wasn't helping. Anyway, she asked me to stop talking, she was checking email. Of course I was SO deep into fixation/perseveration mode and the problem wasn't resolved in my mind, and when that happens I really go into kind of survival mode...get the conversation resolved before going away because having an unresolved issue hanging over my head is mentally torturous. So I kept going, kept perseverating. At one point she got really ticked off, I don't remember her exact words but the tone definitely indicated frustration. Of course this gets me more anxious. At one point she told me that she's asked me several times to go away, and I am "disrespecting" her and "blowing her off". To this I responded: "Actually, I feel like you're blowing me off because you don't want to talk about the issue." (She doesn't even indicate that we can at a later time, usually she just doesn't want to talk about it which puts me deeper into survival mode.) Now, while parts of the conversation as far as exact wordage are fuzzy trying to remember, I can remember her response very vividly, like it was yesterday. Her response when I said I felt she was blowing me off was, and I can tell you this was exact: "No, you just don't like my response." What I don't remember about it was the tone, but I think it was a bit sarcastic sounding. But I can tell you the wording of that quote was exact. I took this as her presuming to know what is in my head, and that it is opposite of what I JUST SAID was actually in my head (i.e. I felt she was blowing me off). Sure, I don't like a blow-off response, but it goes way beyond me *just* not liking her response. I didn't "*just* not like her response" that I took as a blow-off response, anymore than she "*just* didn't like my response" which she took to be a blow-off response.

Okay, with her "No, you just don't like my response" comment, what possible interpretation could there be to that, other than she thinks she knows what I am thinking/feeling, and she doesn't believe what I had just told her I was actually thinking and feeling to be true? I'm gathering from your post, you're saying that sometimes certain comments can be directed at the person the comment is being made to, OR the comment can be directed at the commenter. I took her comment as being directed at me...could it have been directed at herself possibly? If so, how?

In this case, if RR said, "Mom I know it's mothers day mom and I'd really like to go, but right now I'm panicing..." then there would have been more dialogue to make it clear what the meaning was.

Okay, had I been in that situation, it would not be advantageous to tell my mom I'm going into panic mode. Anytime I indicate that something is making me anxious, she'll basically just tell me to get ahold of myself, instead of trying to understand the anxiety. Sometimes, wow, stand back, because she'll get anxious (or frustrated) right back.

I'm sure your mom understands you too.

If she understands me so well, why are her comments that presume to know what I'm thinking and feeling often so off base? Like the "No, you just don't like my response" comment. I just TOLD her what I felt about her response, and she basically said (in not the same words, but to the effect of): "No, *that's* not what you're thinking. *This* is what you're *really* thinking about my response." If she understands me so well, I have a hard time grasping why some of her comments about what I am thinking and feeling are so wrong.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well to me it sounds more like she completley ignores the 'aspie' in you, not that it's all she sees. More like she doesn't understand 'that'...not that she doesn't understand you.

And there is also a possibility that she is more like you than you are considering. It sounds like you expect her to be so perfect that she has no room to have her own 'quirks'...

Suppose she had set her 'mental blueprint' to complete the e-mail task and btween that blueprint development and the actual task commencing you began your interaction. In her mind you could be keeping her from completing it, or something...

I COMPLETELY understand the conversation thing...I am SOOOOO like that. I can not stand having dangling thoughts in my head from an interupted or uncompleted conversation...it doesn't push me over the edge, but it does distract me and make me feel like I'm forgetting something, or runs through my mind until I can complete it. Drives me crazy...

I haven't really been able to figure out an answer...so I don't think I can help too much...but in your specific example I want to say that you could go and write it down so that you can move past it...maybe just accept your mom's desire to do 'her thing' and tell her that you would like to complete the conversation when she does...

I don't know if you have another PC, but the thought that occured to me is that (for that specific time) you could have e-mailed her, LOL!

And if I'm way off with the 'quirk' thing, there is still the fact that she is human and may not know how to handle all situations perfectly...the best way to get past that is to discuss it. It's possible that she thinks by 'forcing' you to deal with these types of situations that it will help...maybe there is a better way...but forcing a conversation when either person is not open is never a good idea, ya know.

At the end of the day, I'm sure that your mom's intentions are NOT coming from a bad place. This is really all I meant.

[milivica]

what exactly is that? I think I am flexible, but would my not being able to jump up and go to dinner be a example of not being flexible? I don't know if I think about it in the right way? I have trouble with things like the jumping up and going to dinner because I cant prepare myself for it and it automatically sends my brain into overdrive, like my brain goes OMG, do I need a shower, do I stink, what are the menu options, I need to go over the ordering in my head, what if ____ happens, can I handle the sound of people chewing food, and so on and on. So I need the time to think those things over to prepare.
I don't think I understand what ongoing appraisal is?


# Dynamic analysis/Ongoing Appraisal:
Determining relative meaning and value of information. Ongoing subjective appraisal of continually changing contextual information, to determine the best fit. Ongoing evaluation of change. The ability to observe and continually regulate one's behavior in order to participate in spontaneous relationships involving collaboration and exchange of emotions.
# Flexible Thinking/Creative Problem-Solving:
The ability to obtain meaning based upon the larger context. Solving problems that have no "right-and-wrong" solutions. Developing multiple, equally good strategies for an imperfect world, including "good enough thinking," improvisation and "work-arounds." The ability to rapidly adapt, change strategies and alter plans based upon changing circumstances.

add to that gaining these as well:

# Experience Sharing:
Sharing different perspectives, integrating multiple information channels and determining "good enough" levels of comprehension. Using language and non-verbal communication to express curiosity, invite others to interact, share perceptions and feelings and coordinate your actions with others.
# Episodic Memory and Self-awareness (Foresight and Hindsight):
The ability to reflect on past experiences and anticipate potential future scenarios in a productive manner. Developing an internal mental "space" to consider, reflect, preview, prepare, regulate, evaluate, hypothesize and dream.
# Resilience:
Coping with a "messy" unpredictable world, where setbacks and errors are unavoidable. Responding to uncertainty in a productive manner.

The 5 areas I listed above, are always deficient in people on the spectrum. Your lack in these areas are always always, the reason for the negative feelings you experience.

Spend the $45 bucks to get The RDI Book here: www.rdiconnect.com if you want to learn exactly what being asd is and what being nt is. You really need to learn both - your parents have to consciously understand what they have, to understand what you don't have. For them, you are this narrow narrow path of right things to say and do, there are many ways for them to go wrong with you in their mind. For you, they and other nt's are completely maze-like, there are so many twists and turns and ways to go wrong...we asd's are very right/wrong based. Nt's are all varying shades of right and wrong, on a scale of 1 through 100, where as we are a scale of 1 and 100, right and wrong. Make sense?

There was no right or wrong way for you to handle the request your mom made to go to dinner, there were many many ways you could have handled it right. There are many many ways you could have handled it wrong. The possibilities are limitless and unmemorizable (un-blueprintable). There was no right or wrong way for your mom to respond when you said no. Her 'jokeful' comment, wasn't funny. It wasn't right (1) or wrong (100) but somewhere in between (2 through 99), and not based on the single 'joke' but based on her body language, intonation, past experiences, foresight as to how you'd react to her joke, I mean there is a myriad of ONGOING information you base each interaction and comment on, least of all, the exact words. We aspies though, are word based.

And until there is proof otherwise, I do believe absolutely your mom knows your heart...she does not however know your neurology. And it is not fair for anyone to expect her to honestly, any more than it is fair for you to be expected to know hers or any nt's. That is information that must be sought out and learned intentionally, not instinctively.

If it could be learned instinctively, this forum wouldn't exist. No parent with a child on the spectrum, intentionally doesn't understand their child's neurology, and it's devastating not to be able to. I can't know how that has worn on her as time went by. There's nothing more a parent wants, than to connect with their child, and visa versa. You are not a child anymore, so opportunity has passed - but - because of that would make it all the sweeter and more wonderful to start connecting now...and by connecting I mean sharing ONE neurology. Nt's doing it all day all the time in continual brief intervals with others. Sharing a look, a smile, seeing a dude walking around with their pants exposing their underwear and looking at Vince as we both grin widely...at that moment we are SHARING a single neurology. No high like it exists...I waited over 40 years to feel it with anyone, waited almost 13 years to share it with my son...and no drug, no high, can beat it.

Ok, nuf outta me.


OH AspieG, I put that part in bold, cause often when I suggest 'changing' in any way, either the asd, or the nt parent (that doesn't know me) thinks I'm suggesting they change their asd into an nt. Being asd or nt, does not change the heart or spirit or personality of a person, it alleviates all the problems a brain with asthma and no networking causes and allows the real person to flourish. Make sense? For me, the idea of RDI at first, sounded like I was to make my child into someone else, into an nt robot, into another person. I didn't want you or RR to think I was suggesting that, by suggesting gaining the 5 abilities I posted above, will 'cure' your asd. Asd is a restriction on your brain, RDI (or rather gaining the 5 things I listed above) opens the restriction, just like an inhaler opens asthmatic lungs.

I been super busy, banged out everything I said here off the top of my head and heart, hope it all makes sense!
Lisa

[Aspigander]

Well to me it sounds more like she completley ignores the 'aspie' in you, not that it's all she sees. More like she doesn't understand 'that'...not that she doesn't understand you.
Bold emphasis mine, and I'll get to that bold emphasis in a moment.

Okay, that could be. Though, I'm not sure why she would ignore the aspie in me, as she was the first person I ever heard of Asperger's from. When I was 19, she attended this workshop at the elementary school she is a playground supervisor for, on ASD's, and she said when they described AS they might as well have been describing me. I'll never forget the certainty with which she told me that day she thought I had Asperger's. So...now that I have that dx, it does kind of baffle me that she would ignore it. Since she was the first to suspect it. Know what I mean?

As for the part I bolded, if she's ignoring the aspie and attributing it to me instead of aspie, wouldn't it go without saying she therefore doesn't understand me? Does that make sense?

And there is also a possibility that she is more like you than you are considering. It sounds like you expect her to be so perfect that she has no room to have her own 'quirks'...

Could be -- actually I think my psychologist has once wondered if we are more alike than we realize. I've wondered if she might be aspie herself...though I'm not so sure. She seems to have no problem with flexibility...at least she sure lectures me about my lack thereof, and says you have to be flexible, so I don't think she has problems there. She just doesn't seem to have all the issues that I have that make me aspie, so I think she's NT.

and tell her that you would like to complete the conversation when she does...

I might have an easier time waiting if I had hope of completing the conversation when she's done. A lot of times, though, she doesn't want to discuss it, at all. I'll ask her when we can talk about it, and she will say we don't need to, at all, ever. I think if I had hope that we would discuss it after she did her thing, and had a time period we'd discuss it, I might have an easier time leaving her alone to do her thing. But most of the time, she won't give me hope that we'll discuss it, and if she does, won't give me a timeline, and if I keep asking her she'll generally wind up getting frustrated and say something like: "Within four days"...well four days is really a long time to leave me hanging with that dangling thought. When I'm so unsure of when, or if, we will discuss it again, it's really hard to leave her to do her thing because I know this might be my only shot to conclude it.

I don't know if you have another PC, but the thought that occured to me is that (for that specific time) you could have e-mailed her, LOL!

LOL Well they did get a new computer, and the old one was set up in another room, so yes there are two there now. Of course, because I think everything out when I'm emailing (or posting here, or doing any kind of writing about anything important), I'd probably spend so much time crafting the email that she'd be done by the time I hit send. LOL

It's possible that she thinks by 'forcing' you to deal with these types of situations that it will help...

Can you clarify?

At the end of the day, I'm sure that your mom's intentions are NOT coming from a bad place. This is really all I meant.

Oh I'm sure they're not coming from a bad place. But that is very small consolation when things tend to go so drastically wrong.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Lauren, I can't pick apart everything...I only meant that to help you manage the situation, any situation, considering the idea that your mom is trying to do her best may help you to not get so unwound when stuff like this happens.

There was a time, not too long ago, when the working philosphy in getting past some asd typical 'quirks' was desensitization (sp).

It's creepy to think about, but at the time thought to be the best approach. Meaning, if texture was a problem...make kids where itchy uncomfortable clothes, and things like this.

So considering your age...it may be that your mom is working from this premis with your 'inflexibility'...

Of course I don't know, I was just trying to say that there are likely thousands of scenarios that could be motivating her words and actions...and you will never really know, particularly if you build up resentment, unless you actually ask her.

Telling her at an appropriate time that getting you frustrated is not helping you manage your frustrations, may help. But don't be surprised if she turns around and tells you that she doesn't understand why or how you get so frustrated.

You do not equal aspergers. You are you...some of your uniquenesses &/or difficulties are due to aspergers. Your mom can know WHO you are, without fully understanding your difficulties.

I can imagine your mom saying something, Lauren is a smart and gifted young woman. She is very talented with her writing abilities, and can be so creative in that respect. And I don't understand why she has such difficulty interacting at times.

Do you see the difference?

[Aspigander]

Lauren, I can't pick apart everything

I am very sorry. I didn't mean to overwhelm or frustrate you.

I can imagine your mom saying something, Lauren is a smart and gifted young woman. She is very talented with her writing abilities, and can be so creative in that respect. And I don't understand why she has such difficulty interacting at times.

Do you see the difference?

Ah, okay. Yes, that makes sense.

[peglem]

I think your mom knows that some of your issues that she gets irritated with are due to your aspergers, she just doesn't know what to do about it and that makes it even more frustrating for her.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I agree Pegs...Lauren do you see how she could be expressing frustration over her own inabilities here...

It's really funny because growing up we all think our parents are perfect and know everything...then one very sad day we realize that they are infact human like us...and we begin to appreciate them, well after we get over the whole "my parents are complete idiots" phase...and somehow when we become parents we think we should be those perfect people that know everything...forgetting that once we forgave our parents for not being that way...

You may infact be correct that she is frustrated...I'm willing to bet that it's not directed at you.

As for the picking everything apart...I wasn't really getting frustrated as much as I felt like the point was getting lost in the detail...and that I would have to defend the idea to the dire end. I get where that comes from...so no need to apologize, at all!

More than that tough it seemed that you were the getting frustrated, which is the opposite of my goal here...and so I just wanted to stop, ya know.

But hope this has given you a little perspective...maybe?

[roadracer]

Thanks mili, Kristen, Aspigander
I am going to work on everything said
mili, I am going to work on those 5 areas, will do some googling about them, will try to get a better understanding.

[Aspigander]

I think your mom knows that some of your issues that she gets irritated with are due to your aspergers, she just doesn't know what to do about it and that makes it even more frustrating for her.

I agree Pegs...Lauren do you see how she could be expressing frustration over her own inabilities here...

I guess so. But when she gets frustrated, she makes a lot of "you" statements. "We don't get along because YOU..." "YOU are blowing me off"...things like that. Basically, I hear: "I'm frustrated because YOU _____." I don't hear "I'm frustrated because I don't know what to do/have an inability to help you with your Asperger's issues." See what I mean?

As for the picking everything apart...I wasn't really getting frustrated as much as I felt like the point was getting lost in the detail...and that I would have to defend the idea to the dire end. I get where that comes from...so no need to apologize, at all!

Okay, so I can breathe a sigh of relief. :)

You know what I think happened here? As I was picking apart at the details, as is typical, I know this is the kind of thing that can frustrate my mom. I was beginning to get a little concerned Kristen might get frustrated. Then Kristen said: "Lauren, I can't pick apart everything..." I knew if my mom said something to that effect, it would have a frustrated tone to it. So I thought: "Oh crap. I just frustrated Kristen. Drat." Which certainly wasn't my intent. :)

But hope this has given you a little perspective...maybe?

I think I'm starting to get some perspective, slowly but surely. :)

[Aspigander]

Okay guys, here's an example of what I'm talking about, with the blueprinting. The kind of situation I don't like, when I run into something I can't gain enough information to get a mental blueprint. It just came up so I thought I'd post it, just as an example:

My mom was picking up some food for me the other day and dropped it off. When I emailed her my list, I got in the mood for chips and guacamole. So I put chips, salsa, and avocados on the list. She got a container of salsa and literally the last avocado in the store. I mixed it up, and the result was not guacamole -- it was salsa with an avocado mashed in. So I asked her to pick up a couple more avocados.

She said she'd bring get them and bring them over today. I just talked to her, and she was in the store. I asked for a time, of course, so I could blueprint it. She had no idea, she and her friend were walking around the store, if I wanted a guess, she would say an hour. But that was only a guess. Could be wrong. Okay, so I figured plan on at least an hour. I asked what the longest time she thought it would be. Her response? "God help me, I don't know. An hour is the best I can give you. I don't know." I asked if it would be shorter than, say, three hours (I'm really trying to narrow things down here). Her response: "I hope so", meaning she really didn't know. So an hour is her guess, and it sounded like a rather random guess. She stressed that could be wrong. So is it an hour? Half hour? Four hours? While four hours seems like a stretch, as that's getting after 10pm in the Eastern timezone, that kind of thing has happened when she's dropped stuff off. Sometimes it will be after 10pm (I'd prefer not that late, and if it would be I'd prefer to know at least).

Okay, as I was typing this, she called, she's on the way. I'd say that's just under an hour. So her guess wasn't way off. Sometimes it is.

Anyway, just thought I'd post this as an example of the type of unblueprintable situation that I'm talking about.

I do see a positive though. A couple. She is bringing the avocados (well, or did, since she called me to come to the parking lot and get them as I was typing this paragraph), and she brought three instead of two. Cool! I love an avocado-heavy guacamole. They're all hard, not ripe, which kinda stinks, but the positive there is that they're not overripe, just wait a bit and they'll be usable.

[frogmama]

First - I just want to say thanks to Aspigander and Roadracer for posting here, you've both given me some real insights into my son's thought processes (he's 19)!

I have to admit that I didn't read this whole thread, just skimmed the improtant bits, but something is popping out for me- All through school we/you have had IEP's written to deal with these EXACT same issues - the "scripting" (your blueprints, Aspigander!) and difficulty with sudden transistions. So suddenly, because you are both "grown-ups" now, those issues are supposed to dissappear?

I think some of what is going on is more of your parents desire to have "grown out of it" children and not wanting to take the time and effort use the communication and behavioral tools they probably expected every teacher/aide to use.
ie: giving warnings (10 min, 5 min, 2 minute warning!) that an activity is about to change or something new will be expected to happen, or having the courtesy to stick to plans you have made (unless, say, a flood, fire or rain of frogs interferes:rolleyes:).

Maybe? I know I personally can be guilty of this with my oldest son and I have to remind myself that yes, he is nearly grown, but he still has Aspergers.

On a side note - my son has scripting issues too, but he is aware that he does, and that his script is not always my script (huge step, btw). Since he is computer geek, he's worked to change his script to a flow-chart - if X happens then I do Y, if A happens then I do B if I can't do B, then I do C. For instance, we will talk about all the permutations of the route to school (he drives) - if there is heavy traffic, or an accident or god forbid, gets stopped for speeding, and there are times when he has called me and said he's "stuck" because of something COMPLETELY unexpected and we go though the possible ways to get unstuck.

And sometimes it is REALLY FREAKING HARD for me to keep to a schedule (life happens you know :D), but I have to remember that life is much easier for the whole family when I do.

[roadracer]

First - I just want to say thanks to Aspigander and Roadracer for posting here, you've both given me some real insights into my son's thought processes (he's 19)!
and I have learned so much from the parents here. I had a way simpler understanding of autism before I started posting here, and my understanding is probably still simple, but I seem to learn new stuff all the time here. I find myself thinking of situations in new ways.

I have to admit that I didn't read this whole thread, just skimmed the improtant bits, but something is popping out for me- All through school we/you have had IEP's written to deal with these EXACT same issues - the "scripting" (your blueprints, Aspigander!) and difficulty with sudden transistions. So suddenly, because you are both "grown-ups" now, those issues are supposed to dissappear?
I think maybe my parents see it as now that I am a adult I am going to have to learn these things sometime, so they are less likely to accommodate for my issues because it is there way of teaching me to deal with them. But when I think about it they do help me out a lot being that I still live at home, and I know aspiganders mom helps her out a lot, like going grocery shopping for her.
Seeing as there is not much help for adults, I think they figure you should have learned everything you where supposed to by the time you are a adult, so there should be no need to do any further teaching. So if it cant be taught to you by the time you are a adult, it is rough trying to find someone to teach you. The only help I have been able to find is with some with 'living skills'.

On a side note - my son has scripting issues too, but he is aware that he does, and that his script is not always my script (huge step, btw). Since he is computer geek, he's worked to change his script to a flow-chart - if X happens then I do Y, if A happens then I do B if I can't do B, then I do C. For instance, we will talk about all the permutations of the route to school (he drives) - if there is heavy traffic, or an accident or god forbid, gets stopped for speeding, and there are times when he has called me and said he's "stuck" because of something COMPLETELY unexpected and we go though the possible ways to get unstuck.
I couldnt function without my lists, calendars, charts. Also with the driving, my GPS navigation is a MUST, I wouldnt be able to drive without it, as I get lost driving down the street and back, lol, and if there is something like a road closed or something all I have to do is hit "route detour" and it guids me around it to my destination. It sounds like your son needs a gps. I also have a hand held GPS that I take out biking with me.

[roadracer]

aspigander, I think your mother was like, I am going out of my way to get the avocados, and all she is worried about is how long it is going to take. Your mother was probably frustrated because she didn't feel like you appreciated her going out of her way to get them? Could that be it?

I would say a positive was that your mother was going to get them for you, as she could have just told you to eat the dip the way it was.
Another thing is did it really matter what time she got back with the avocados? I am thinking about the clean house lady who like mili said, could have just painted the wall, moved the tv back...
did you need the dip at a certain time, or was it just something like you needed to know when to expect her because of your 'blueprint'?

BTW, did you ever think about being a architect? :D

[Aspigander]

Well, yeah, I do think that's where the frustration came in. It was, pretty much, just a blueprint issue. Or my detail obsessiveness. Or both.

LOL! Architect! I'm still struggling with SketchUp. :p

What made you think of me being an architect?

[Aspigander]

By the way, Roadracer, just out of curiosity, is the GPS connected to the internet or something? How does it know how to detour a route?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Lauren, all very good responses here, so I just have one question for you...

Did you consider that your mom has too many factors to deal with to give you a precise time and that there wasn't really any acurate way for her to give you more than a guess?

The store has other customers,
She may need to take extra time to find other things on the list,
The line may be long when she gets there,
They may be out of something important on her list - she may need to stop at another store.
The register could break down,
There could be traffic on the way over,
She may need to stop for gas,
Her friend may need to stop for something,
Oh someone may need to make a quick stop to the bathroom,
What if there is an accident on the road,
Aliens could land on the road too...but that's pretty unlikely :D

Your mom was guessing because that's all she could do. When she said about an hour, that was a reasonable guess based on how much she had left to do and what 'normal' conditions are...that is the BEST information she can give you...she wasn't trying to drive you nuts.

I do understand that you have a need for a bit more information...but that's all the information SHE had...ya know.

So, after that, if you need more you have to find another source.

In this particular example there is no other source, unless you want to start checking traffic sites or something which would be silly...this is where you could start having more than one blue print...rather than press your mom...see?

Ok, about an hour can mean :45, 1:00, 1:15, and maybe 1:30....not too many...

So, you could say, "Ok, about an hour, sounds good. Can you give me a call if something changes. Thanks for your help mom. You're the best. See you when you get here." ;)

[Aspigander]

Ah, okay, all those factors make sense (well maybe the alien one *is* unlikely, and we need to watch out or Mili and Pegs will start in with the zombie attack conspiracy theory :D :p).

I think that's why she gets frustrated with my blueprint issues. Because to her, with all those factors, well, it's kinda hard to blueprint.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Lauren, honestly I'm not trying to badger you on this, but I just want to make sure you get this, totally:

Because to her, with all those factors, well, it's kinda hard to blueprint.

This has nothing to do with HER way of seeing/doing things...it's a plain old fact...she DID give you the best information she has...and in the end it seems like she's pretty good at estimating too.

I'm sure she gets it that you desire more information, but she had none more to offer. She DID the best she could...and you made it plainly clear to her that her best just didn't cut the mustard. That's, I'm sure, where the frustration comes from.

She COULD say..."Lauren I'll be there in EXACTLY 1 & 1/2 hours (being confident that it shouldn't take more time than that)...manage to get there in :45 then sit there until it's EXACTLY 1 & 1/2 hours, just to line up with your blueprint. Wouldn't that be silly.

This is why I'm saying, it may help your perspective (and in the end your interactions) if you try to keep in mind that your parents ARE trying to do their best.

If you had that on the tip of your mind, it may have been easier for you to not push for more than she already gave, to be able to accept that she knows you need a good estimate and that she gave it to you...see?

Dang! I wish I thought of the zombies! LOL!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

you know what, after just rereading...I think this has something to do with trust...I think...

Sometimes I wonder if Coley trusts me too...I'm not sure if it's the lack of trust for another, or if it's the inability to trust...

hmmmm....

Mili, any thoughts?

[Aspigander]

Yeah, trying to walk out of the store and seeing a bunch of zombies surrounding the building might just present some difficulty. LOL

I want to think she's doing her best. But I think you hit it dead on when you said it could be a trust issue. Okay, it's like hospitalized cat I'd mentioned earlier -- she said we would DEFINITELY go, no doubt about it, and see her, even when she kept pushing back the time, she said it DEFINITELY would happen, and then it didn't. Perhaps she was doing her best, I don't know, but things like that don't exactly foster a sense of trust, best or not. Does that make sense?

Sometimes, well most of the time, I'm a bit more on edge with interacting with her. Like I keep thinking: "Oh dear. What's going to go wrong this time?".

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well having a not so optomistic expectation definately sets a bad 'tone.' You might want to work on that...I know you're working on positives, maybe try to work directly on interactions with her...trying to (in the moment) not allow your mind to go to the "oh great this isn't going to be good" mind set...ya know.

Of course she's doing her best. Maybe on that day things didn't go the way you wanted...or anything like she wanted...maybe something got in the way...sometimes people have bad days...

Cut her a little slack.

So is there anyone else that makes sure you have food in your fridge? Is there anyone else that makes sure your animals are cared for? etc. etc.

Not trying to be all pro-mom or whatever...I'm definately on your side here...but you know she does a lot, she has her own house, animals and other responsibilities too, she deserves your trust...and really I don't think there are seperate sides here anyway...I know she's on yours, I think though sometimes you don't think she is. Trust ME, she is!

Give it a whirl...try being a little less critical of her, try approaching her with the attitude that she IS doing her best for you...see how that goes.

[peglem]

Be aware too, when she is with friends and other people, she is not in full control of her own agenda. Or maybe sometimes in that situation, she's just enjoying the company of her friends and not watching the time closely.

To illustrate your mom's POV:

I really think my husband has some major aspie traits. Anyway, I don't get out much, except to run errands. My husband used to always complain that I took too long, every single time i went somewhere. Honestly, sometimes it just feels good to get away, even if it is just grocery shopping and I do take a bit longer, just because I'm savoring that. Anyway, it was very irritating for me...he has finally, after 18 years of marriage, quit doing that. The other thing he does (not as much as he used to) is when I'm going somewhere, he asks how long that will take. What makes this so irritating is 1) I don't know precisely, I may decide to do something else as long as I'm out anyway. And 2) I feel like he's setting me up so he can complain when I get back that I took longer than I said. Probably, he's just setting up a blueprint for himself and feeling like I'm not sticking to it. But, to me, it feels like a trap.

[Aspigander]

Well having a not so optomistic expectation definately sets a bad 'tone.' You might want to work on that...I know you're working on positives, maybe try to work directly on interactions with her...trying to (in the moment) not allow your mind to go to the "oh great this isn't going to be good" mind set...ya know.

Well, yeah. Unfortunately, thinking of positives is much easier after the fact than in the moment. And still I have to *remember* to do it after the fact. I did try, though, this evening in the moment. I think it went fairly okay.

My parents are dog training in Illinois tomorrow, they leave after my dad gets off work. Staying overnight. So I'm going over to do critter care. I needed to know when. You know, because I'd really like know when I'll be picked up tomorrow for that blueprint. I called my mom. I did try to remind myself that she'll give me the best answer she has at the time.

She really wasn't sure. She *might* do some yard saling in the morning, and my dad gets off work at 2:00pm, going directly home, and they want to load up the dogs they're taking and go once he gets home, so I'd definitely need to be there by then. She *thinks* around noon. I deduced from the time that my dad gets off work, sometime between noon and 2pm. Okay, so I have a fairly good blueprint there. I was able to handle it.

Okay, this works, unless she doesn't go yard saling and decides to pick me up before noon... But I think we got through the phone call without too much frustration.

So is there anyone else that makes sure you have food in your fridge? Is there anyone else that makes sure your animals are cared for? etc. etc.

My dad, if he can and my mom can't. But in some situations (like the cat situation) he was out of town or otherwise unavailable.

Be aware too, when she is with friends and other people, she is not in full control of her own agenda. Or maybe sometimes in that situation, she's just enjoying the company of her friends and not watching the time closely.


Well, true, but she did tell me that she'd informed her friends she was with that Fiona was in the hospital and she needed to get home in time to get me to go see her before 7pm, and I'm pretty sure she also said her friends were okay with that. Plus, I was calling her fairly often, so even if she wasn't keeping track of time, she had someone doing it for her. LOL

Honestly, since that event, while in *that* particular scenario my cat was basically okay, they were just observing her until she pooped, I keep thinking what if there were a different situation. Like if I had one of my cats in, and things took a turn for the worst, let's say the vet had called while my mom was with her friends to say that the cat might not survive the night. In that case, as hard as it was that I didn't get to see her, it would have been infinitely more difficult, knowing that the next day may be too late. Fortunately this wasn't the case, but when you have a pet hospitalized sometimes that might be the case. And if the vet called and advised euthanasia, well, I really don't think I would be able to bring myself to authorize that over the phone, without me being there to hold the cat. Just the failure to get there in an *okay* situation, and the terror/meltdown that caused, makes me fear being unable to get there in a more critical situation.

I really think my husband has some major aspie traits. Anyway, I don't get out much, except to run errands. My husband used to always complain that I took too long, every single time i went somewhere. Honestly, sometimes it just feels good to get away, even if it is just grocery shopping and I do take a bit longer, just because I'm savoring that. Anyway, it was very irritating for me...he has finally, after 18 years of marriage, quit doing that. The other thing he does (not as much as he used to) is when I'm going somewhere, he asks how long that will take. What makes this so irritating is 1) I don't know precisely, I may decide to do something else as long as I'm out anyway. And 2) I feel like he's setting me up so he can complain when I get back that I took longer than I said. Probably, he's just setting up a blueprint for himself and feeling like I'm not sticking to it. But, to me, it feels like a trap.

Well, I hope I'm not giving her the impression that I'm setting a trap, as I'm not. I know you realize this, as you realize your husband probably isn't setting a trap, but I really don't mean to make her feel like that, if she in fact does.

[peglem]

Well, I hope I'm not giving her the impression that I'm setting a trap, as I'm not. I know you realize this, as you realize your husband probably isn't setting a trap, but I really don't mean to make her feel like that, if she in fact does.

I'm thinking maybe she does, because you keep getting all upset when she doesn't show up on time and it seems like she's trying to be vague about the times she tells you so you can't accuse her of being late.

[Aspigander]

But I don't keep getting all upset for the sake of being malicious or a pain in the butt.

[peglem]

But I don't keep getting all upset for the sake of being malicious or a pain in the butt.
Of course not, but she's operating from her perspective.

[Aspigander]

Of course not, but she's operating from her perspective.

Drat. So from her perspective, I *am* being malicious and a pain in the butt. Now I'm feeling a little helpless, since it seems my intent is so off from her perspective...

[Aspigander]

Okay, I think I'm doing well with the thing I mentioned yesterday. To recap, she told me she's thinking she'll pick me up around 12pm, and my dad gets off work at 2pm so I'll have to be there to their house by then. So instead of having a strict 12:00 pick up blueprint, I deduced it would be between 12-2pm.

So I just called her and asked if she's still thinking around noon. She said she wasn't sure, may be closer to 1:00, would have to call back. I was able to take this okay. I'd rather she knew a bit more since we're only hours away from me being picked up, but 1pm still fits in my between 12-2pm blueprint.

How am I doing so far?

[peglem]

Drat. So from her perspective, I *am* being malicious and a pain in the butt. Now I'm feeling a little helpless, since it seems my intent is so off from her perspective...
Well, probably not malicious. How are you doing? I guess it depends on your anxiety level. Do you have something to keep busy while you wait, so you don't focus so heavily on the time?

[Aspigander]

Well, I'm on the computer now, waiting for her to call me to let me know when it will be. We are now 24 minutes into the "between 12-2pm" blueprint. It helps to fart around on the computer while I wait, BUT I'm finding myself still somewhat on edge, waiting for my cell phone to ring, praying it's more notice than "hey I'm in the parking lot, come on out".

Less anxiety than sitting around, waiting with one hand ready to grab my phone at a moment's notice, but still a bit 'on edge' waiting for the call.

[Aspigander]

Oh CRAP! She's like two minutes out. This is the kind of thing I was afraid of. Okay, just thought I'd update on that situation.

[peglem]

So, what if you just nail down the range- like between 12 and 2, and then just say, okay call me when you're on the way-so you'd know about how long it takes to drive to your place from where ever they are leaving from. Then you wouldn't have to keep calling and getting time updates.

[Aspigander]

It works okay when she calls right when she leaves point A, if point A happens to be a fair distance (such as her house, for example). What happened today, at 12:33, that weirded me out, was she called and said something like: "I'm almost to your place." She was leaving my grandparents which is about five minutes away. We talked for a bit and I guessed about three minutes which is why I posted she was about two minutes out. It was a bit longer than that, as she saw a yard sale she might cruise by (which she told me on the phone). Problem with really short notice, or not calling until she actually gets to my parking lot, is that I then have to round up my cane, round up my coat, round up my whatever I need to round up and grab to go, if it's overnight like this is, shut down my computer, all that good stuff.

All in all, what happened wasn't that bad, just the 2-5 minute notice did give me a sense of urgency.

[peglem]

It works okay when she calls right when she leaves point A, if point A happens to be a fair distance (such as her house, for example). What happened today, at 12:33, that weirded me out, was she called and said something like: "I'm almost to your place." She was leaving my grandparents which is about five minutes away. We talked for a bit and I guessed about three minutes which is why I posted she was about two minutes out. It was a bit longer than that, as she saw a yard sale she might cruise by (which she told me on the phone). Problem with really short notice, or not calling until she actually gets to my parking lot, is that I then have to round up my cane, round up my coat, round up my whatever I need to round up and grab to go, if it's overnight like this is, shut down my computer, all that good stuff.

All in all, what happened wasn't that bad, just the 2-5 minute notice did give me a sense of urgency.
But, you don't have to wait until her arrival is imminent to round up all that stuff. You could get it all ready in advance and place it by the door. When she calls from the parking lot, say, "okay, I'm just going to shut down the computer and I'll be out."

[Aspigander]

But, you don't have to wait until her arrival is imminent to round up all that stuff. You could get it all ready in advance and place it by the door. When she calls from the parking lot, say, "okay, I'm just going to shut down the computer and I'll be out."

Well, that's true.

[roadracer]

Aspigander, I was looking threw the thread and realized I didn't answer your questions
What made you think of me being an architect?
because of all the blueprints you are making, you would make a good architect (it was a joke)
By the way, Roadracer, just out of curiosity, is the GPS connected to the internet or something? How does it know how to detour a route?
Do you know what a GPS is? Next you are going to ask me what is a Ipod, or what is a Netbook? (maybe I am just to much of a technology nerd, lol)
A GPS (global positioning system) also known as car navigation system, links up to satellites that tell you where you are. It is very simple actually, you just hop in the car, type in the address of where you are going, and it tells you turn by turn how to get there, sort of like having a passenger telling you where to turn, but way, waaaay better. So when you click detour all it is doing is routing you around the road you are trying to avoid.
Anyone can pick up a GPS at any electronics store, or walmart for under a hundred dollars.

[Aspigander]

LOL, I guess I can be quite the blueprinter. Actually, I formed that term, mental blueprint, recently after the AS diagnosis. Or around the time thereof. My psychologist said she had a little kid, I think she said around 5 or 6 or so, she asked him to draw a house. He handed her not a house, but a blueprint for a house. At that age. She said she knew he was aspie at that point. I realized blueprinting is what I do in my head when planning out a scenario.

Ah, okay. I know what GPS is (my dad has one on the boat) just not how it works.

I have a bare bones idea of what an Ipod is. And my brother showed me his netbook one time we were talking computers (my brother is the ultimate technology nerd I think...anytime I have a computer problem, or my parents do, we call my brother). So I won't ask what those are. :)