Pegs & Grimey

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Pegs, I just read this and wanted to put it out there for you:

"...a fresh attitude about what my son would achieve vs what I was being told the liklihood of success for him would be. If what you are doing is not having a positive effect, why continue to do it? The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over & over and expecting different results. We must think outside the box. The first thing I changed was my outlook. I began focusing on my son's abilities rather than his disability...in time the ready-to-quit attitude was replaced by a deep, stern nose to the wind."

Not saying that Allie is a quitter, but I suspect that her behavior might be coming from the same types of frustration...

Obviously I don't know all there is to know here...my impression though is that the team is seeing this ALL as Allie short-comings...clearly they haven't figured out what works for her. But isn't that THEIR fundemental task? And I don't mean that they need to be so completely openminded and flexible that they MUST accept RDI...although it would be nice...I just think that they are being so narrow-minded that they are not seeing something right in front of them...I think it's time for a fresh perspective here.

Of course you can't ram that idea down someone's throat though...so how do you get someone to widen their scope enough that they can see enough of the picture to capture the hurdle????

Maybe the same techniques you're using with Allie... indirect/questions????? I dunno...

Anyway, had to just put that out...seemed like an appropriate message to relay. Hope it adds something...

Grimey, I'm still shamefully further behind in reading than I'd like to be, but don't want to put the book down...I'm glad I haven't even though I was getting annoyed with the style...it seems to have changed...I'm midway through chapter 5 (Showing Your Child that He/She is Competent) at the topic of Looking for Islands of competence...it really speaks to me! I really think I don't do this well!

And I can't wait to read Ch 6 (Teaching Your Child How to React to Mistakes) This is an area Coley really struggles with, and in turn me & DH...we just don't know how to manage his reactions when little 'mistakes or accidents' upset him so much.

And then Ch 7 (Helping Your Child Cope with Doubts & Dissapointments) I think this gets right to the roots of some of his anxiety...

So my goal is to get through these today...not sure it will be possible...Coley & I are supposed to finish his Munchkin Album after school & it looks like rain is going to cancel practice...which means I lose my "me time" :rolleyes:

Anyhoo...maybe after the kids are in bed...no Lost & no Medium tonight ;)

What are you reading...did you start a different book? How far did you get???

DH is REALLY behind...and I can see that already there is a HUGE difference in our perspectives and therefore our reactions...this is really helping...I just hope I don't have to skim too many more annoying 'examples' :rolleyes:

KJ

[tgrimes]

But isn't that THEIR fundemental task?

YES.... OMG don't get me started!!! That is in a nutshell what's wrong with the whole educational system as it exists. Don't worry, it's not just for special ed, you must point out deficiencies of all students as per NCLB and all the other congresional mandates written inside out and becoming their own worst enemies... blah blah blah.... Ooh, gotta shut up now before DH starts to hum Glory Glory Haleluliah... (he likes to do that every time I get started on a political rant) :)




What are you reading...did you start a different book? How far did you get???
KJ


LOL I'm reading 13 Things That Don't Make Sense - it's totally awesome. I'll check out those chapters you mentioned here after i'm done with this one, it is a 14 day book.
So, how do you plan to teach DH the things you learned... and is it important?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

You know what...this book is REALLY pointing out some BIG ARSE mistakes with the 'approach' we are all (by default) in...

The idea that you isolate weaknesses and then work to build them up is good...but it sends a pretty loud message of incompetence to our children. Certainly they KNOW they aren't doing well in these areas...AND more importantly they likely HATE them. Who likes doing things they aren't good at...or flip it...who's good at things they don't like to do?

Uhmmmm where do they get a sense of accomplishment, where do they get a sense of pride, where do they find self-esteem?

There HAS to be a balance, of course we ALL have to muddle through things we don't like or aren't necesserily good at...but don't we get through because we KNOW we aren't complete idiots...because we have other examples in our heads...things we have done well and areas we are competent in? At what point do these kids get that, when all they do is focus on weaknesses?

I think goals should be incorporated into activities that they are successful with!!!!! Build off of strengths!

There's an exercise I think I'm going to post in another thread...

Grimey...I'm really diggin' this book now...there are still examples, but I've gotten past it...I can really 'see' what they are trying to say...it's not that they are trying to show that this that or the next thing went well...it's the process that they took to get to the solution. Now I'm (are you sitting) feeling like I should read the book again when I'm finished, because I was reading it wrong...LOL!

Oh, DH is going to read these too! I got on his case last night...he's got to pick it up!

[tgrimes]

Kristen -
Okay, you have me pumped up again about resuming reading it now (plus got a message today the 14 day books are overdue :) )
This thing you mention with the kids hating the goals, I have been worrying about this for a while, but today was the worst.... Theo saw this report. There was all kinds of negative stuff on it, the notes were done obviously days before based on what they had in old files (really old files since he has not attended for two years) and I did not get to read what was on the report until I got home, but while I was reading it he was looking over me at it and.......... OMG!!! I had to whisk it away and tell him he should not be reading it. I feel just sick over it. How can I have a report on him that he's not allowed to read?
Oh, fer cryin out loud, makes me think of the irony ... they just fired a THREE DECADE long band instuctor in the district for cussing at an extracuriccular event and calling a little girl FAT ...
OMG!!! The stuff on this paper is ten times worse.

[peglem]

Kristen -
Okay, you have me pumped up again about resuming reading it now (plus got a message today the 14 day books are overdue :) )
This thing you mention with the kids hating the goals, I have been worrying about this for a while, but today was the worst.... Theo saw this report. There was all kinds of negative stuff on it, the notes were done obviously days before based on what they had in old files (really old files since he has not attended for two years) and I did not get to read what was on the report until I got home, but while I was reading it he was looking over me at it and.......... OMG!!! I had to whisk it away and tell him he should not be reading it. I feel just sick over it. How can I have a report on him that he's not allowed to read?
Oh, fer cryin out loud, makes me think of the irony ... they just fired a THREE DECADE long band instuctor in the district for cussing at an extracuriccular event and calling a little girl FAT ...
OMG!!! The stuff on this paper is ten times worse.

Oh, Grimes, I'm so sorry. I know (believe me) that hurts.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I don't even know what to say!

That's HORRIBLE!

I would ABSOLUTELY make it clear to the autor of those reports that it's purpose is to be CONSTRUCTIVE and if Theo can't read it, if you can't together discuss it HOW can it be?! :mad:

And further if they can't somehow manage to write things up in a constructive manner then it should NEVER be given to him! And I might add that if they admit to not having the ability to do this, that it speaks VOLUMES!!!!!

Hugs to you and Theo! Please let him know somehow that he deserves better support than that!

[tgrimes]

To be fair about the report, I don't think it came from anyone at the school anyway, I am going to try and ignore it, (unless I get fired up one day and do write that letter, but it would be to that one person only).
I just am mad at myself for reading it while he was right there. I should know the drill, i was here before am I that forgetful? this report was with another paper, I was going over some POSITIVE things the teacher had on a different paper, and key dates he should attend if he wants to be graded on planets, etc. But then, BAM! There it was, and I am sure I did not react properly, and now I don't know how to 'undo' my reaction.
Any ideas?

[peglem]

To be fair about the report, I don't think it came from anyone at the school anyway, I am going to try and ignore it, (unless I get fired up one day and do write that letter, but it would be to that one person only).
I just am mad at myself for reading it while he was right there. I should know the drill, i was here before am I that forgetful? this report was with another paper, I was going over some POSITIVE things the teacher had on a different paper, and key dates he should attend if he wants to be graded on planets, etc. But then, BAM! There it was, and I am sure I did not react properly, and now I don't know how to 'undo' my reaction.
Any ideas?

I'm confused (more than usual):confused: You don't think the report came from anyone at the school...do you not know who sent the report?

[tgrimes]

Oh, yeah, she was there at the meeting, but I'm pretty sure she is a district person. There is usually only one person responsile for wording in documents like an FBA, and that is usually district staffing.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Grimey, I don't really know the best way to handle stuff like this...I don't have a good track record...so take this for what's it's worth...

My initial reaction is that it plain old doesn't matter who worded it. #1 that person was likely NOT the only one to see it before it ended up in the envelope (or whatever). #2 The impressions of the writer came from somewhere...they are not all hers. #3 She has a boss. #4 There is a coordinator that is responsible for making sure that these things are documented properly (not sure if that's the author in this case).

So basically the responsibility does not fall all on one person's shoulders. The 'team' is at fault here... I ABSOLUTELY would contact someone there. It is just wrong on SO many levels!

As for Theo, which I think is really the bigger, more difficult situation...I think the best approach is to just talk to him about it.

I would go over it with him, so that you could perhaps (hopefully) give him a better idea of what the (assumed) purpose of the comments were. This sounds scary but the alternative is him having read it all at face value...the best you can do is try to give it a more positive spin for him, I think.

I would also emphasize to him that the way in which it was worded was irresponsible, that you DO NOT approve of it, and are in the process of dealing with that to insure that things are more constructive in the future.

And then I would actually talk to him about managing the items that were outlined in the report. See if you guys can TOGETHER come up with solutions. I think so this gives him a good solid reminder that mom IS on his side, but then also to give him some experience with controlling the outcomes.

What an aweful situation. I would be rip-roaring mad...I think I would have been so po'd when I read it that I would have immediately reacted and done some serious damage...that is just infuriating to me! What complete bafoons! :mad::mad::mad:

Good Luck Grimey!!!!

[tgrimes]

As for Theo, which I think is really the bigger, more difficult situation...I think the best approach is to just talk to him about it.

I would go over it with him, so that you could perhaps (hopefully) give him a better idea of what the (assumed) purpose of the comments were. This sounds scary but the alternative is him having read it all at face value...the best you can do is try to give it a more positive spin for him, I think.

I would also emphasize to him that the way in which it was worded was irresponsible, that you DO NOT approve of it, and are in the process of dealing with that to insure that things are more constructive in the future.


Good Luck Grimey!!!!


Thank you - this worked :)
I started by asking did he remember reading this report, and he said "the one you had to take away.." so yes he remembered. Then I explained that I thought the things written were negative, and that was the reason I didn't want him to read the rest, and he said he understood.
Then I asked him if he thought it was a good idea to ever write the bad things down, and he emphatically said no, and added "that would be like me writing a note to the parents of those kids I don't like to tell them to send their kids to military school"
Then I tried to explain that this is the way the system works sometimes, that sometimes things that are supposed to be good turn bad as they become part of a larger thing, and he said he knows, because "that is what happened to Darth Vader, he wasn't really bad, it was because of the emporer. Is it like that?"
Well, I don't know anything except the first Star wars, but it sounded good to me, and I am really impressed with his analogies. Whatever helps him understand.

I am so relieved, thanks! :)

[peglem]

Thank you - this worked :)
I started by asking did he remember reading this report, and he said "the one you had to take away.." so yes he remembered. Then I explained that I thought the things written were negative, and that was the reason I didn't want him to read the rest, and he said he understood.
Then I asked him if he thought it was a good idea to ever write the bad things down, and he emphatically said no, and added "that would be like me writing a note to the parents of those kids I don't like to tell them to send their kids to military school"
Then I tried to explain that this is the way the system works sometimes, that sometimes things that are supposed to be good turn bad as they become part of a larger thing, and he said he knows, because "that is what happened to Darth Vader, he wasn't really bad, it was because of the emporer. Is it like that?"
Well, I don't know anything except the first Star wars, but it sounded good to me, and I am really impressed with his analogies. Whatever helps him understand.

I am so relieved, thanks! :)
Wow, I love the way he is able to demonstrate his understanding w/ Star Wars analogies-that is so clever. So, I wonder if everything in life can be explained via Star Wars?

[tgrimes]

Wow, I love the way he is able to demonstrate his understanding w/ Star Wars analogies-that is so clever. So, I wonder if everything in life can be explained via Star Wars?

Hmmmm.... I'll have to ask! :) But I dont think he's that into it!
I do remember a time when everything in life unfortunately had to be explained through Thomas the Tank engine. :o

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

OMG! I'm SO glad!

Grimey, maybe watch those movies (maybe even with him)...it may end up being a VERY handy tool!

I too have had to explain everything through Thomas...UGH! God forbid I'd get a name wrong...

But it is handy having stuff like that, isn't it?

I've watched a couple Stars Wars waaaaaaaaaaay back (I wonder if anyone here has watched them all?)...anyway, from what I remember Darth Vadar was largely misunderstood....I can't remember much more than that...but I think it even turned out in the end that his motivations were good, and his behavior/actions misunderstood...eeek...I'd definately get them...course now I'm curious too...

Pegs there was an episode of Lost (this season) where Hurley implied that life CAN be explained through Star Wars...I never looked at it that way, I was a kid of course, but it sure would be interesting watching it with that perspective...

Gotta fly...hope everyone enjoys their weekend!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, Grimey...how's the reading?

I still want to write some points from the bok before I hand it over to DH...but I'm hoping to start the next book soon...I think I want to skip the other brooks book...which other do you have...can't decide which to move onto next...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I thought that this fit in here, so thought I'd post it:
http://www.comcast.net****eo/-worst-mother-in-the-world-/1119406513/Comcast/1118073148/

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, Pegs...I'm reading a section in the Genuis! book, and I think it speaks right to those commonalities that we see in Coley & Allie...I think it might speak to the school behavior too, and found soem of the ideas pretty consistent with the basis of RDI, so thought I'd type out what I just read...



How 'feeling like a nobody' pushes oppositionality

Having a clear memory or 'felt memory' (to use Daniel Siegel's term for memory of the body) is not the strongest suit of our wild, odd and oppositional children. In fact, given that many of them were extremely difficult from the moment they came home from the hospital, there just may not be too many positive events to remember. Much of the problem is related to the under-development of the OFC (orbitalfrontal cortex) and to a resultant inability to have the confidence to say "Yes!" to anything. Lacking a sense of ground, a reference point, they gravitate to "He!! no!" as a primary response. They are very oppositional.

Many anxious children come in for couseling with a diagnosis of oppositional defiant disorder. The diagnosis is a list of behaviors, grouped for the sake of convenience, that describe a non-compliant child. Unlike other diagnosis, which may describe common emotional states for a particular condition, the diagnosis of ODD describe a set of annoying and dangerous behaviors that are seen in certain children. I do not consider the diagnostoc label useful for crafting a couseling strategy but find it useful as a code for "anxious child."

Though the oppositional child may appear to be headstrong, spoiled, or willful, his behavior is not pushed by these qualities. In fact, just the opposite is true. The child's oppositionality is caused by his incomplete sense of agency in his own life-his feeling that he has no power to control events and must be controlled by them.

Oppositionality is part of nature's plan for self-protection during the developmental process....


I LOVE this book! :)

[Nikabee]

I do remember a time when everything in life unfortunately had to be explained through Thomas the Tank engine.

You too? :) Now that I think back to that time, I'm sooo glad we've moved on to dinosaurs and Pokemon!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, here's more:


Oppositionality is part of nature's plan for self-protection during the developmental process. In order for the child to grow, he needs to differentiate himself from his parents and other adults in his life - to form a solid base for future development. A nt child goes through a normal growth phase of 'no saying' (the 'terrible twos') that begins before age two and may go on for several years thereafter until he feels strong enough about himself to begin allowing the 'yes' word from time to time. The exercise of no saying helps the child develop a sense of who he is as a person apart from his parents. This is a requirement fot the development of his personality.

AD (attention different) children show chronic oppositionality long past the time when the reflex to say 'no' to everything should be less activein the child's life. Unlike the nt child, the AD child's ability to pay attention is hampered by his brain chemestry. In order to develop a sense of personal identity, the child must be able to picture himself as a successful person with all these successes behind him. For the child to know himself, he must be able to see himself in his minds eye and have a sense of personal history. Many AD children do not have the innate ability to create personal history. They are chronically fixed in the 'here-and-now' with no 'there-and-then' behavior to reference, to give present experience meaning. This state of being provokes high anxiety and great pushback: "I do not know how to choose but I do know how to say 'No!'"

The child who does not have the ability for awareness of self becomes victim of every stimulus that pushes him this way or that. He cannot say "this is who I am this is what I decide."

The AD child also tends to be ultra-sensative to stimulation- his brain signal receiver is turned way up. THe combination of his OFC developmental lag, high anxiety, and hypersensitivity make his reaction to his parents hugely out of proportion to the real issue he is facing. Mild paranoia and the inability to see his own part in problems along with a reflexive anger results. A permanent pwer struggle is set up which will remain status quo until the child ia able to develop a sense of himself as a capable and independent person with his own life and destiny.

Children with neuropsychiatric diagnoses are greatly challenged by reflexive oppositionality, but the good news is that the brain continues to grow through adolescence and into young adulthood. A good relationship now will build his sense of self and self-efficacy. Siegel calls this "earned attachment." Contrary to folk wisdom, reducing oppositionality is not as much about imposing strong consequences as it is about building relationships. Research with families of persons with severe mental illness suggest that anxiety, the criterion that pushes oppositionality, is reduced by a child's experience of attuned relationship at home and at school.

The bolding is mine...and I'd say that is the very lesson that we learned from our parenting class!!!! So I'm now concluding that Keggy was right, the good Dr is an idiot!

[Nikabee]

Oh wow! I need this book! Who is the author again? I'm having trouble finding the original post.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

The book is:

Genius! Nurturing the Spirit of the Wild, Odd and Oppositional Child
by George T Lynn

Did I mention I love it?! LOL!

[peglem]

Wow, this is good stuff, Kristen. I'm probably not going to buy and read the book, just because all my plates are pretty full right now, but please continue sharing your "AHAs" with us......it makes so much sense! And (can't help myself) this is exactly the kind of research that the RDI program is based on....the problems in autism come from these basic deficits in development....so shouldn't we be working on remediating those, instead of applying complicated patches to "compensate" for them? Again, it just makes sense.

[Nikabee]

Thanks! :) I'm frustrated that my local library doesn't have it, but I did find another book by that author that deals with Asperger's. I'll have to add Genius! to my list of books to buy on payday. (it's getting to be quite a list!)

And yeah, I *think* you *might* have mentioned that you love it a time or 2! :D

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Right on sista!!!!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, another quote for ya...nothing too earth shattering, but rather another message consitent with RDI:

My AD clients have taught me that experience of imagination is required for the expression of genius. You have to be able to imagine yourself having a capability before you can develope and express that capability.

Also sounds like Mili's 2nd favorite topic: mirror neurons.

This says to me, that we can tell our kids stories...tell them that they are able to speak, write, balance, play with other kids, control their outbursts, focus, imagine, create....on & on...

And if they can imagine it, if we can put it into their minds eye...then there is that possibility, maybe even a greater possibility. How awsome is that?!

I LOVE this book!:)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, obviously the author is using the 'power of suggestion' on his readers as well. Kinda funny! But here's another quote:

The power of using affirmations to boost kids' success in school has been documented in several studies. Cueing staff to deliberately give positive remarks to students, especially those at risk, has been shown in several study populations to be part of a market reduction (better han 50%) in the number of children who dropped out of schol. This result is powerful proof of a basic principal of human development, and one that has direct application to our discussion of the nurturing of genius in children: what you pay attention to grows. If you focus on the negative, it grows. If you focus on the capabilities of the child, these positive aspects will grow and become part of his genius.

Ok so clearly this begs the question: WTF! are the schools doing? And is it any wonder self-esteem and behavior is affected. Course it also goes without saying that weaknesses need to be addressed (in some cases) to develop functionality. But it seems that a more productive approach would be to focus on the strengths to achieve that end, versus going head strong attacking the 'weakness' directly.

And while I grapple with this Aha...that I had to read in a book...I hear RR's words clanging through my head:

I know every kid is different, but for me when I was that age (well maybe in 4th-5th grade) they made me go to a social/social skills group. For some kids this might be good, but for me it was by far the worst thing I ever had to endure. It did way to much harm to me and not any good.

The reason I think is that you can only push a ASD child to be social so far. You push the social stuff to hard to fast and it is going to have the opposite effect you are looking for. ... Most so called 'experts' don't understand this, so my advice would be to take it slow with the social stuff, as you don't want to push him over his limit and cause much more anxiety, fear, and a bunch of other problems. That happened to me and plenty of aspies/auties when the people in charge decided what was best for use, but only caused more problems.

DER!

And it's even more ironic, because the anxiety work book I ordered for Coley...did I tell you about it before? Anyway, it uses this same theme/theory/appraoch (whatever you want to call it)...basically illustraiting how when you focus on something it grows. It is really basic, at a kids level, compared 'worries' to a tomatoe plant...but does come directly out and say that if you focus on your 'worries' you give them strength & power and 'grow' them.

So if this is such a simple straight foward accepted fact...what the heck are we all doing teasing out deficits and FOCUSING on them?!

Also glaring in the quote above is a lesson we learned in the class, although really worked hard at practicing it, and still are...noticing and commenting/praising. Just noticing, being aware, and making a postivie comment does wonders...sometimes it's hard to find genuine words when you're not used to it. But just noticing it and saying it out loud...shows the child that you are paying attention...that's HUGE.

Like..."you just picked up that bike and decided today was the day" with a big smile on your face. Sure you could say..."Wow, that took courage" too...but it's kind of implied, ya know.

OK I've got Dr. G, Genuis! and RR banging around in my head right now...it's easy to make changes here...school, not so much! There is a section in the book that I'm in some ways wanting to put in Peg's "ARG! IEP" thread, but in a way it seems to stop short, kinda frustrating...maybe I should just put it there and see what you all think...

ok, rambling now...

[tgrimes]

"...This result is powerful proof of a basic principal of human development, and one that has direct application to our discussion of the nurturing of genius in children: what you pay attention to grows. If you focus on the negative, it grows. If you focus on the capabilities of the child, these positive aspects will grow and become part of his genius. "

Sold! Just the direction i would like to take from here, been hoping you would post something else in there. Well, you will be done by the time I get it, but it sounds like a keeper, one of those books you need to revisit from time to time to remind of basic stuff we all become oblivious to from time to time.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I just finished the section that focuses on parents/caregivers...there are a couple repeated messages there...no surprise, stuff that applies to AD kids, applies to regula kids too...and guess what so does it apply to adults (especially when you consider that these 'challenges' tend to run in families)...particularly those that beat themselves up all day (or get beaten up all day) by 'circumstances'...

But there are a couple other ideas that haven't been mentioned in the kids section and are for the parents...I might quote them later this weekend...I was just shutting down for the night, so don't have the book with me...

There is one more section, The perils of neglecting Genius! It's the last 50ish pages, and I'd like to finish it tonight if 'circumstances' allow!

Definately a perspective changer, and yes a good one to go back to if I need an 'attitude adjustment' ...

How's Hold onto your kids? Have you started it? I might go back to Brooks next, haven't decided.

[roadracer]

OK I've got Dr. G, Genuis! and RR banging around in my head right now....

Thats a deadly combination, lol
Just wondering, did you read my thread about bike racing, the first post I talked about some of this subject and how cycling taught me to do away with those thoughts. (well most of them anyway)