An example of a situation in which my mom and I butt heads

[Aspigander]

Okay, I could use some advice on a situation. Please forgive the severe lack of background, but I am very reluctant to admit on a public forum what my mom convinced me to try out, get professional assistance with, because to do so would demonstrate an area where I am hugely incompetent in an area I shouldn't be incompetent in. So there's going to be a lot of details missing here. I am sorry for this. But this is an example of a common problem my mom and I have.

ARGH you know what? I don't think there *is* a way to explain this without going into what we're talking about. It's not that I mind so much that you guys know about it (though truth be told still a higher level of incompetence than I'd really like to be admitting even here) as much as I fear folks who know me from other forums (say the cat forum I frequent) might just happen to find this forum and this thread and realize the level of my incompetence, or think less of me, or whatever. But there is just no way I don't think of giving you guys enough of a picture to go on without explaining what it is, so here it goes:

I am terrible at keeping my apartment clean. Could be a VI related, Asperger's related, or a combination of both. I think a combination -- part of it being it's hard for me to see well enough to clean up a mess I've made, and part of it being there seems to be a disconnect between "there is a mess" and "I should clean it". Reminds me of the absent minded thread that Roadracer started not too long ago.

So my mom talked me into hiring a professional housecleaning service. Took some convincing as again doing so means I am incompetent and it is frankly embarrassing to have someone come in and deal with messes a 25 year old who is home all day should be able to deal with. But the bacteria/mildew build up gets so heavy especially in the kitchen and bathroom that my mom was (not unjustifiably) concerned about health issues that could result. So I guess I'll be having cleaners come out as much as I can afford.

First 'session' was almost two weeks ago. It was good, they did a good job. Just that I *really* hope no one else in my apartment complex noticed (such as when one of them went outside to shake a rug, or when they took their trash out to the dumpster). I really don't want anybody knowing my level of incompetence. I don't want it to be obvious.

Anyway, the other day my mom suggested that it might be good to have them clean out and do some organizing in the inside of my kitchen cupboards. Just a passing mention, something I thought was just something for me to consider, I didn't get the impression she was looking for a 'final answer' from me on what I thought and I didn't realize she was going to act on it without getting a 'final answer'.

So yesterday evening my mom and I are talking on the phone, and she informs me she emailed the head of this cleaning service, asking about cleaning and organizing inside of cupboards. Now I didn't have much reaction at that point other than asking her if she'd received a return email (she'd sent it in the morning and when we talked it was evening -- she didn't know as she hadn't been on the computer since). Sometimes there is a lag time between information I receive, my mom doing something, and the actual anxiety response. Sometimes the anxiety response is more immediate.

For example, those who remember the sponge cutting incident -- that was an immediate response. As soon as I realized she'd cut my sponge I went into what I think was anxiety meltdown. For those who remember the cat food incident (my cats eat a raw diet, we were at their house, I took food out of the freezer and put it into the refrigerator to thaw, then forgot to take it home and it needed to be used as it was no longer frozen, she made a passing mention that she might feed it to one of the dogs instead of bringing it over, but I didn't give the 'final answer' on whether or not I agreed with that and a few days later when it 'sunk in' and I got the anxiety from it she'd already fed it to one of the dogs), that's an example of where there is a lag time between something happening and my anxiety response when what happens "sinks in".

So this morning what my mom told me she did has just sunk in and I'm getting my anxiety. This is about the time I would normally call her all weirded out. Oh my goodness do you know what happens when someone tries to "organize" things for me (my mom has before)? I don't know where things wind up being put. Not like I can find things very well anyway but my goodness when someone 'organizes' things then I can't find what I could find before because they put it somewhere I'd never have dreamed of putting it. This only increases my anxiety. Don't get me wrong I want/need organization but I have NOT had good experiences with people trying to organize things for me.

I feel like I need to address this with her but a huge catch-22 comes in. This is only one example of where this catch-22 happens. I'll get anxious, call her (or go to where she is if I'm at her house), start expressing the problem I'm having, and she verbally beats me down, says I don't appreciate her trying to help (I do), says she's close to not helping me with things anymore because no matter what she does she gets in trouble, etc. I don't think I'm at a point in my life where I can be totally without her support. I don't think she realizes this but I am just as frustrated by this as she is, if not more so. With Asperger's you're supposed to be pretty high functioning but the distinctly low level of day-to-day functionality (which I think it hugely related to so much anxiety) is demoralizing. That's why it is such a big issue that I figure out how to deal with the anxiety. I think without it, or more accurately with a better handle on it, I would do quite a bit better.

So here are my options, as they've pretty much been my whole life:

1. Call her and address the problem. Since being in contact with her seems to be a stimulus for higher levels of anxiety, get anxious enough to be close to meltdown. Have her start chewing me out, telling me (erroneously) that I don't appreciate her help, she always gets in trouble, etc. This raises my anxiety levels even more and pushes me over that edge into anxiety meltdown. Soon, things are very bad for both of us.

Or

2. Stuff it in. Don't address it with her for fear what was described above will happen. Keep going through the stress of suppressing it until it leads to anxiety overload/meltdown in other areas.

There seems no middle ground. It is either #1 or #2. If I try to get ahold of my anxiety, get calmed down, then go to her, we can start out with a very rational conversation but, without fail it seems, something will be said that triggers the anxiety and we'll wind up with scenario #1.

Again the cleaning thing is only one example where my mom tries to be helpful, takes it upon herself to do something without making sure it is okay with me first (maybe making a passing mention but not making sure she's gotten the okay, and taking a *lack* of obvious disapproval on my part as approval on my part), then either I get anxiety immediately or after it has had a bit of time to sink in, then I try to address the problem with her, and it it's all downhill from there. This is a very common problem.

Does anyone have any ideas?

[Aspigander]

Oh no. Oh my goodness! My mom just forwarded me the email response. It is a done deal. They'll be in my cupboards Tuesday, trying to "organize". Anxiety levels are climbing. This is something I need to address with her but I know if I do it will only lead to anxiety meltdown and I really don't want that. Hate when that happens. It only ends badly for both of us. Now I don't know what to do. HELP!

Edit -- Okay Lauren, breathe for a minute. I have an idea. Maybe I can salvage this. Maybe if she reads this thread where I've pretty much talked about my thought processes, whereas if I talked to her she'd just see the anxiety and resulting meltdown and have it end badly, perhaps it might help somehow. I don't know how and I don't know if it will. But I'm going to email her the link to this thread. Might help her understand my thought processes or might just make things worse. I don't know. Wish me luck guys.

Another edit -- Oh no. When I emailed my mom this thread link, I read through the emails again that she had with this person, and my mom's original said "we would like to know" or "we were wondering" or whatever it was. As if she had gotten the final answer on my approval from me. Oh no, this is bad. Very, very, very bad. And now that I've emailed her this thread link, I hope it doesn't get worse. I hope she doesn't flip out when she reads this. I hope I didn't make a mistake...

[peglem]

Is it possible for you to participate in the organisation? Have them put labels with big print on drawers & cabinets?

[milivica]

Hi AspieG.

Calm down. You emailed your mom this link. If she reads it, the emotions she feels belong to her. She can choose to get upset, or not. Let her 'own' that, you didn't cause anything.

Having asperger's myself, I completely completely understand the sense of competence you are trying to hold onto with the cleaning thing. You've created a picture for yourself, that adults should be able to do 'this' or 'that', adults are 'supposed to' be doing this or that. If you want my advice, from decades of living aspie - let go of the picture you've painted. Adults aren't 'supposed to' anything...it doesn't make you less competent to have a cleaning service, it just means you stink at cleaning. So what? Lots of people, asd and nt, people with 20/20 vision stink at cleaning. I am an at home mom, my house was cleaner when I worked...makes no sense! But other mom's say the same. Anyhow, I've had to come to the realization that as much as I'd like to be June Cleaver, I'm not. I stink as an organized home maker that vacuums in a dress and heels. I had to let go of that picture.

There are many gray areas to this, but, since it seems to be a health issue with the mold and all, take the cleaning service (and hide your sponge before they come, hee hee). Your mom sees you living in a way that could be unhealthy for you. This sounds like an ongoing thing. If I imagine my son in your situation, I'd feel like he's not taking the initiative to change this situation, so now the responsibility falls on me. I want my son to live in a mold free healthy environment, I cherish my son and want him to live surrounded in cleanliness giving him the respect I want him to have in his home. Just like your cats, your 'kids', you wouldn't want them living in filth, they can't clean their litter box, you don't let that build up so they are forced to step in their own poo, cause you cherish them. Unlike cats though, it's not that you can't clean, it's that you don't. Me too, I can, but I don't. Not as well as I could anyhow (I have clutter, no mold though). Believe me, if someone offered to organize and clean after me, I'd be like "Go for it!" However, a couple of years ago I'd have never allowed it, cause I as the mother am 'supposed to' do that.

And by the way, you remember the lack of 'ongoing appraisal' we've discussed that all people on the spectrum have? You're not a slob, you just have what all aspies do, a lack of ongoing appraisal, or, appraising on an ongoing basis what is priority. When you have mold about to sprout in your bathroom, that is priority, not the cat forum or here. I know that makes perfect sense when you read it, yet, your brain just doesn't work that way (mine too).

As for the organizing, go for it - but - they'll have to do so in a way that you know where everything is, I think that should be prearranged so that the company understands you have visual problems - they may have cool ways to handle that. Maybe color coded stuff, I dunno (cause I'm not organized!)

So, you aren't Mrs. Clean or Mrs. Organized, me either. And for a long time it was a matter of pride with me, to never let anyone help, an never let anyone know how I struggled. It was humiliating. Like you said, people with Aspergers are supposed to be 'high functioning'. Now you know, that is old dogma. We have the same deficits as those with autism...show your mom the thread I posted with the analogy of 'brain asthma'.

As a mom, I gotta say, there is nothing more emotionally exhausting than a child on the spectrum. At least for me that was so. On the other hand, when I recall growing up, all the way into my 30's, I really did not understand how all the questions I asked my ma could be so irritating. I only wanted to gain understanding, not to argue or make her upset. It's very very hard for both of you, for different reasons. The trouble both you and your mom have, is that often, she can't understand what you're thinking...and when you can't understand what your kid is thinking - you can't stand your child! When you can't understand what she is thinking, you feel frustrated and even more incompetent. The thing you both need, is to be able to borrow each other's perspectives. That is the 'cure' for you and your mom's relationship, just as it is for my autistic son and I. Honestly, it's the 'cure' to every relationship really. Have your mom get The RDI Book, it'll explain you to her in a way that she will really understand at last. She will get you, and hopefully get you into the program so you will no longer have aspergers, like me (well, at least now I'm more like half-asped, hee hee).

AspieG, I would like to see you feel proud of yourself more often for all the wonderful things about you...remember what we talked about in the beginning, positive ongoing appraisal.

Oh, and last, as for your neighbors knowing you are not clean. First, screw what they think. Second, they won't think you're not clean, they'll be jealous they don't have what you have...someone to clean for them. No one will be thinking "Oh, she needs a cleaning service, she's not clean" or "she can't even do it herself".

[Aspigander]

Peglem,
I'm not sure lack of labeling is the problem. I know, for example, what cabinet and even what shelf I have my plastic food storage containers. They're just a jumbled mess and getting one is begging for an avalanche.

Mili,
As I just said in the PM to you, my worry about my mom's reaction is I know if she gets upset, it will raise my anxiety levels, I'll have a meltdown, and it will be one more conversation that goes south. And, if she does react negatively, she would not have done so had I not emailed her this thread link, and that means that my action of emailing the link would have set the cascade of events towards meltdown. See what I'm saying?

Thing about me not being clean and organized, as my mom points out, her home isn't clean and organized because she has 100 other things going on in a day, while I don't. I'm just here. Mostly on this forum or the cat forum. Therefore, the implication is that people who have nothing to do but post on forums should have no problem maintaining a clean apartment.

[milivica]

I see what you're saying about the cascade...but here's the thing. If your mom gets upset, that's her choice. You didn't set out to upset her, you're doing the best you can to get through a decision making process you are trying to make about the cleaning/organizing thing.

If your cat is about to eat poison, and you decide to remove it from her mouth and she bites you, you can get mad and react to the cat negatively, then the cat will react negative, then you will, and so on....or you can realize the cat was just being a cat. No harm intended. The bite didn't even have anything to do with YOU, it had to do with the object she wanted. You intended no harm, you simply sent your mom and email. If she 'bites' cause of it, you can get upset feeling that you set this whole grand negative situation into motion, or, you can realize your mom is just being your mom, she wants you to live in a clean organized home, it is not YOU or the email that upsets her in this situation, it's the lack of cleanness/organization in the home, not YOU, just her feeling that she wants to fix the situation, she feels the responsibility has fallen on her. If she feels you 'bit' cause of sending the email, she can bite back or she can realize you are just being you and trying to sort through this cleaning/organizing thing the best way you can.

Seems to me, the biggest point of your email to her was to open communication between the two of you, you've tried every other way you know how and nothing seems to work. She probably feels the same way. You two surly have that in common! You still dearly want that 'closeness' of understanding one another, her understanding your perspective. She may or may not at this point, just want to see you live as well as you can, she is willing to do all she can to see that can happen, but she may not have the energy to keep trying to understand your perspective...I tell you the amount of understanding my son needs from me was positively draining, a bottomless pit. Just like to you, trying to be understood is positively draining, and perhaps seems to anger her which just feels so defeating for you.

Ok, I'm procrastinating, better go for sure now!
I really hope you and your mom can understand one another better and better. Have her get The RDI Book, it explains aspergers very well to both the aspie and the nt.
Lisa

[peglem]

I'm not sure lack of labeling is the problem. I know, for example, what cabinet and even what shelf I have my plastic food storage containers. They're just a jumbled mess and getting one is begging for an avalanche.
Well, then...seems like a good idea to have somebody fix it for you!
Honestly, what most NT's think when somebody has a maid service is: "You lucky person! Sure wish I could afford for somebody to clean up my place."
The problem I have is that I don't even notice little clutter that accumulates day to day. Then when say somebody is coming over or something, "quick clean" means putting stuff away fast where they won't see it- no time to sort it all out. Then there is a huge mess compiled somewhere and tackling THAT seems overwhelming. So I do something else, waiting for the "mood" to strike me so's I can clean it up. Usually there are about 3,856 other things I'd rather be doing, so its more a problem of motivation for me.
I explained all that to let you know that cleaning and organization problems are not unique to you, and neither is feeling bad about it.

[Aspigander]

it is not YOU or the email that upsets her in this situation, it's the lack of cleanness/organization in the home

I think it is me in most of the situations where conversations lead to meltdown (this being one of many examples). I cannot even begin to count how many times she tells me: "See? This is why we don't get along. Because YOU...". It usually has to do with whatever anxiety reaction I'm having at the time, not that my apartment is messy.

Seems to me, the biggest point of your email to her was to open communication between the two of you, you've tried every other way you know how and nothing seems to work.

YES!!!! Thank you. You nailed it. It's like you said in the other thread, actually I think I said it in my original post of this thread, but you said in the other thread, you have two choices to draw from -- raging or suppression. No middle ground. Like I said in my original post here in this thread, even if I try to be rational, invariably the conversation ends badly, in meltdown for one or both of us. If I suppress, knowing that trying to address the issue will end badly, the stress of suppressing will just make me more anxious in other areas, like the anxiety I'm suppressing in one area spills over to another and I still end up melting down. I NEED to find a way to communicate with her, address things with her, that will NOT result in meltdown. I think a huge part of the problem is she doesn't realize my thought processes. Like the cat food incident -- she'd made a passing mention she might feed it to one of the dogs. What she took as 'approval' on my part was the fact that it hadn't quite sunk in. A few days later, it sunk in, I called her in a panic, by then she'd already fed the food to one of the dogs and I had a meltdown. Her response was she'd mentioned it a few days ago possibly doing that and I didn't voice disapproval. My stance was she didn't *ask* me or give me a concrete plan for her to do it (if she had I may have even approved). She just said she *might* do it, and that gave me nothing concrete to go on, which is why it took a few days I think. I don't think she realizes that sometimes there is that lag time between her saying something and whatever my reaction is, she takes my apparent immediate reaction as one thing, and because I didn't have an immediate anxiety response she thinks I'm fine with it. My whole point with sending the link via email, is I am hoping she'll see some of the thought processes that go on, see that there is sometimes a lag time, instead of what it looks like on the surface which is, from what I can tell "here we go again. I try to help and I get in trouble for it." That seems to be all she's seeing, so I sent the email hoping she'd see it goes beyond that. It's not just me not appreciating her. There's so many htings going through my brain. That's my whole POINT of the emailing the link. Mili, you've got it.

Uh-oh. Looks like she just sent me an email. Better go off to read. Heeeere we go.

[Aspigander]

Peglem,
Yeah, it probably is a good idea to have someone fix it. lol Good to know it's not just aspies that have that problem, though. It's just that, things haven't gone well in that regard before, when my mom's tried to fix it, and when it finally sunk in what she did, and I remembered how people "organizing" things have gone in the past, it ramped up the anxiety.

Okay, my mom's email response that appeared as I was finishing my response to Mili went better than I'd feared. I'll speak to that separately, after responding to it.

[Aspigander]

Okay as I'd just said in my last post my mom's response wasn't as ugly as I'd feared. However, the very first part of her email was a little confusing to me:

OMG, Lauren. You probably won't like my reaction to your posts now either. However, it was not anger......Don't know for sure if I should tell you what it was.

I did ask her to tell me what it was. Not sure if she will or not. Mili? Peglem? Anyone else? Can you make sense of it? I don't know what she was OMGing -- that I would think those things or have that kind of anxiety, that she didn't realize that those are the thought processes that go on, I don't know. I don't know, and wish I did, if the OMG was the "reaction I probably wouldn't like that she's not sure if she should tell me" or if the OMG was a *lightbulb moment* on her part (I'd love that reaction!). I'm also not sure what it is she's not sure if she should tell me, or why she's not sure she should tell me. I'm not sure if she will even though I asked her to clarify, so could someone please try to decode that for me?

She said I was right that when she doesn't get a reaction from me, she does assume that to be approval.

She said that Mili was right that trying to keep up with me is draining, and there is anger and frustration there. I told her that trying to keep up with her is draining, and put in a link to Mili's analogy thread.

Be kind of interesting if my mom registered and started posting here. Maybe we'd be able to get a good look at each other's perspectives that way, as well as have everyone else here helping us decode each other.

[peglem]

I have no idea. Maybe she's a bit embarrassed, you discussing all this with people she doesn't know?

It would be cool if your mom participated here, on the one hand. On the other hand, might be tuff to have your mother privy to all the stuff you post here. I mean, sometimes its nice to have time just with your friends-w/o your mom butting in. But, you do express yourself well here and it would be nice for your mom to see some of the feedback...to understand what you are going through and thinking. Most of us here are the parents of autistic kids, so she could get some support with that too.

[milivica]

Just like you might feel 'exposed' to your neighbors if they saw a cleaning company at your home, she might feel exposed to see all the information you've posted. She might feel overwhelmed to read your perspective which is so different than hers, or so different than she thought yours was. Maybe she can't believe how much the cleaning company idea has consumed your thoughts.

I think posting your thoughts and feelings are great, I'd have loved to have had that opportunity when I was your age. Just one thing, I would hesitate to cut/paste anything from your mom's emails to you...no matter how minor like what you did post. I say this because now that she can come here, it might not help your goal, better communication, if you post what she writes you, she might hold back more.

I hope your mom will come here, that'd be a great way for her to discuss the things she needs support with, with us parents who have children with autism and asperger's and can understand her perspective. If she does, and you read her perspective, you might be surprised to find yourself feeling the same as she did...OMG Mom, you probably won't like my reaction to your posts now either. However, it was not anger......Don't know for sure if I should tell you what it was.

[Aspigander]

Peglem and Mili,
Hmm, perhaps that's correct. Although with the return email I just got it seems maybe not.

Mili, you're probably right that posting email quotes might not be the best idea...might make her uncomfortable...but I have to tell you the latest. I'm going to send you a PM!