Wife has MS and refuses treatment - family at risk. [Archive]

grendel

03-12-2009, 08:43 PM

My wife was diagnosed with MS last fall and we have had a tough time on several levels. We have been married for 14 years, the first 12 or so were storybook love - together every day - totally enamored with each other - never fighting.

She had her first episode (ocular neuritis) about 2.5 years ago, shortly after the birth of our child. Last year it occurred again along with tingling in the arm. I asked her to go to the doctor, as I suspected a neurological issue, not simply eye problems. After several tests and re-tests they confirmed MS.

She has several lesions in her brain. There have been several episodes since that time involving limb tingling and weakness, inability to stand, and eye problems. I have also noticed her having memory blackouts and repeating herself.

Along with this there has been a dramatic personality shift. She has changed from a sweet loving wife to someone I don't really recognize. She is prone to extreme rage and mood swings. She has become overly suspicious and paranoid. She has suddenly (about a month before the initial serious episode last summer) started demanding divorce, wants to change her life completely, has told me I can have sole custody of our child. Weeks (sometimes days later) she tells me she loves me, gives me a sweet kiss - appears normal. Then it starts again. She rages at me over the slightest things. she screams at our daughter for tiny things.

We visited a therapist two weeks ago to try to resolve our marital problems. We both talked, but mostly I let her talk. I brought up the timing of MS, the childbirth, the stress involved in raising the child, etc. The therapist proposed that something happened at that time that changed our relationship. She said did not want to return as she felt he did not listen to her (he did, but he had wanted to get to the root of her feelings, she just sought justification for her feelings).

I visited the therapist alone this week and he believes she is suffering organic psychological issues brought on by the MS. The personality shift is too radical to be anything else. The timing cannot be only coincidence. Being that he is also a research scientist familiar with MS, I am inclined to agree.

The biggest problem now - besides the fact that she seem to want to rip apart our family - is that she refuses treatment. The therapist believes she needs both MS medical treatment and could benefit from SSRIs and possibly a mild sedative to control her outbursts.

She has no will to medicate for the MS, and I know she will refuse psycho pharmacology treatment, as she thinks she is fine and I am the one with issues. I try to get her to take vitamin D3, which I provide for her, but she is lax about using it.

How can I get her into treatment?
If I don't get her to help herself she will only experience greater MS difficulties and will tear our family apart with her rage.

newlyb12def

03-12-2009, 09:01 PM

I'm sorry to hear about the difficulties you and your family are having.
Your wife certainly seems like she prefers denial over facing her health problems. Even though she has memory deficits and personality changes she's most likely competent to call the shots for herself. If you over-talk this situation she desperately wants to ignore, she will continue to push you away.
I wish I had some miracle solution for you, but all I can suggest is that you try to ride out her mood swings and hope that she will soon find a way to cope on her own or accept help.
It's clear that you love your wife dearly. I hope that things work out for you both, and you soon find a way to get through all of this together.
Hang in there,
-Kay

lady_express_44

03-12-2009, 09:25 PM

I agree whole-heartedly with Kay . . . you need to let her figure this out for herself.

I was married when the MS became very difficult, and my (NOTE: now) ex was so suffocating, it ruined our marriage. I had to go through what I was, in my own time and my own way, and he wouldn't let me do that. I was so stressed from him "mothering" me all the time, I asked him to leave.

Nobody can understand this until they have experienced it first-hand. I understand that you feel you have lost your wife, but the worst thing you can do is to try to coerce her into adjusting according to your timetable.

I hope you have the strength to weather this storm, and that she comes to her senses when you prove you aren't going to try to control her. She NEEDS to feel like she has some control over her fate, and the way she is acting and responding might be the only thing she some influence over at the moment.

She's a smart lady, and she'll figure it out.

Cherie

BBS1951

03-12-2009, 09:36 PM

There is a type of Bipolar Illness brought on my MS. It sounds like your wife fits that description. But, I doubt she would allow herself to try meds. There are some antiseizure meds (e.g. Depakote) that help some Bipolar Illness patients. Her doc might be able to sell it to her based on "Seizure control".

In the meantime, your primary duty is to keep your children safe, physically and mentally, as harsh as that might sound. You might have to separate from her and take the kids even to accomplish that.

Will her family get involved to help her get the care she needs?

grendel

03-12-2009, 09:47 PM

Thanks a lot for the advice everyone.

I am trying not to push her on this, and be patient. There is very real pain for me in this, but when I see her explode at our 2 1/2 year old and scream "I hate you!" repeatedly, I am beside myself.

The therapist has suggested she may need to get much worse before we can make her better.

One of the tough parts is I am now living and working in Japan (wife is Japanese) and it would be next to impossible for me to separate and manage custody of my daughter alone. Fortunately my employer is very supportive and has even offered to increase my salary if I need to move out with my daughter.

The therapist suggested getting her mother involved (we live together) by simply giving her some reading material to look at in private and to read at her own pace. She doesn't understand MS at all. The therapist feels she may also need to intervene on the behalf of my child should something happen when I am not home.
- Do you all think this could backfire? Should I wait longer?

mmcc53

03-12-2009, 09:49 PM

I agree with BBS1951. Worry about protecting your kids from her rage. Do you believe they are in any danger? Have you talked to the therapist about this? Be sure you let him know that she has offered you sole custody.

That is not normal - and I think is alarming. Sounds like she doesn't want the kids and if she is having mental problems, you may need to remove her or them from the situation.

You might also talk to you local Mental Health Association - particularly a group of family members of schizophrenics. The reason I suggest this is that many, many schizophrenics can be relatively normal with meds, but refusing to take them is common. Maybe families of schizophrenics may have some insight about what you can try.

lady_express_44

03-12-2009, 09:51 PM

No, not if she is being verbally (and potentially physically) abusive to your child.

Your daughter has to be the first priority, however difficult that might be for you.

Cherie

grendel

03-12-2009, 10:12 PM

Thanks again for the advice. This board is wonderful.

The therapist is somewhat concerned about possible increases in her rage becoming more physical. As of now, it usually manifests in an argument where she will move closer and closer into my physical space, getting louder and louder, and start jabbing her finger at me (no contact made). This is more common when I am sitting and she is standing or once when I was in bed and she came in to fight and leaned over me. I am a former competitive bodybuilder and am still quite large (not in height though...only 5'8") so I don't fear a direct attack, but the fact that she is more aggressive when she is "above" me suggests she is perhaps unconsciously metering her attacks based on a perceived position of strength.

The therapist put it quite simply that if it escalates it doesn't matter how big you are if you get a bottle to the back of your head or a knife in the back. Another complication is that she drinks daily and sometimes to the point of drunkenness. This increases her unpredictability.

In regards to my child - she has slapped her once or twice in front of me - though not in the face or head. She swears she does not do it when I am not around, and in fact blames my presence on the reason for the attack - though this is completely without foundation.

I am also concerned about the memory lapses in relation to my child. My daughter has severe eczema and allergies, as well as asthma. I am concerned my wife may double-dose her sometime...

agate

03-12-2009, 10:30 PM

Hi grendel,

It sounds as if your child is your first--? The age between 2 and 3 years is often very trying. Does your wife have anyone to take over for her sometimes so she can have some time off to rest and recuperate? Maybe she's finding the work of raising a child to be stressful--this can happen especially if the mom is extremely conscientious.

I'm surprised that her doctor doesn't want her on one of the ABCR (injectable disease-modifying) drugs. You mentioned SSRIs.

Maybe she is in denial about the MS and doesn't see any point in taking any medicine for it. Has she read up on MS at all? Is there an MS Society there she can turn to (or you can) for information and maybe referral to help such as counseling?

It sounds as if she's undergone some serious personality changes, and I hope that she will get the help she needs very soon.

ADDED after reading your most recent post, above:

You just revealed that drinking is a problem. This makes the whole situation much more serious, IMO. She has to get to some competent help as soon as possible. Drinking while raising an infant is definitely dangerous, for lots of reasons. Is there somebody who is capable (a grandmother, aunt, sister, or other relative) who can take over the care of your child if necessary? If not, you may need to hire someone so your wife can put herself together--which is going to take time and effort.

I hope that you and your family will be able to work this out.

grendel

03-12-2009, 10:40 PM

Hello agate,

This is our first and only child. We waited a long time to make sure we were truly ready, and she really wanted one as she passed into her 30s (she is nearly 37 now). We moved to Japan partly so she could have the support of her mother in the same house. Ff course now she fights with her mother, occasionally wants to move out, and generally takes her mother's care contributions for granted.

Yes, our daughter can be difficult. Along with the usual, her eczema means she will scratch herself to bleeding if not watched. When she was young and we lived in the USA, my wife would drive to the mall and by the time she got there and looked in the back seat my daughter was bleeding out of both her ears from digging with her fingernails. My wife often had to sleep holding my daughter's arms down to stop the scratching. Very difficult and draining.

We spent a week in Boston Children's hospital on two separate occasions. It was rough.
My wife almost certainly had PPD, and my (our) therapist thinks this might have contributed to the overall situation, of not pushing the MS to surface directly via increased stress.

The SSRIs were brought up by the therapist. he thinks she should be on ABCRs as well, but it is not his field so he is not comfortable making specific recommendations. The neurologist she saw does not recommend any MS meds. now but told her to wait until it happens again. This seems to fly in the face of what I have read and research myself. In Japan MS is very rare, and the doctors are not well educated on it (apparently).

EDIT

The drinking is a problem, though it is hard to judge for me how bad it is. It is an everyday thing, but the drunkeness is maybe once a month or slightly more, usually when her brother (a bartender and I think alcoholic) visits and they drink together. In Japan excessive drinking is accepted. Her mother usually has a beer or two with dinner. For me this seems odd, as i have never had a single beer in my life.

Her mother would be back-up if something happens though. This is one the reason why the therapist wants to get her educated on MS and involved.

agate

03-12-2009, 10:56 PM

lady_express_44

03-12-2009, 11:32 PM

grendel

03-13-2009, 01:34 AM

There does seem to be mounting evidence in favor of starting people on one of the ABCRs as soon as MS shows up--even with just one episode.

--If you get along well with your wife's mother and respect her judgment, maybe you could put her in charge of your daughter if your wife has to take time off to work on her problems.

A mom who drinks that much has a problem, there is no doubt about it. You're going to have to be involved enough to make sure she isn't spiking the child's food or beverage with liquor (some moms use this trick as a way of helping a child to "calm down"). And by all means check the child over each day for any signs of abuse like bruises.

I hate to raise all of these red flags but this sounds like a dangerous situation.

Thanks for your concern.
I don't think she will spike with liquor, but she wants me to use bendryl a bit too often. She complains when my daughter is itchy and scratch at night as my daughter wants my wife to make the "itchy go bye bye". I will use the medicine to help her an an anti-histamine, but I don't want it used too often as she builds a tolerance to it.

As far as drinking -
Is 2-3 glasses of wine a night on average a lot? I honestly don't know.
What worries me about alcohol is not the amount per-se, but the fact that she seems to need it every single day. I have read it can also perhaps cause MS flare-ups.

agate

03-13-2009, 01:55 AM

I'd say 2-3 glasses of wine a night is a lot for a mom who also has MS. You say that sometimes she gets drunk. And slapping the child isn't good at all--and may lead to worse violence as time goes by and things escalate.

There's no reason to slap or hit a child. I'm not even in favor of spanking. I think it gives the child the idea that hitting people is OK. There are probably people who would argue about this, though.

The alcohol may have something to do with the slapping because alcohol removes inhibitions that people normally have.

The facts aren't in on whether drinking alcohol can cause an MS flare. So far as I know, no connection has been shown. BUT alcohol acts on the central nervous system. MS is a disorder of the central nervous system. Why would you want to disrupt your central nervous system more when you know it's already being disrupted by MS?

Many people with MS drink and it doesn't seem to do them any harm, though. The statement at the end of the last paragraph is just my oddball attitude, not shared by many.:)

grendel

03-13-2009, 02:04 AM

Yes I have seen her drink an entire bottle of wine, and then some beers or maybe "shochu" (Japanese liquor ).

I don't see an increase in aggression or lack of inhibition from violence with the wine, but her immediate short term memory seems to fail at these times.

She slaps my daughter (again, not in the face - that I have seen) when she is simply frustrated with my daughter. I try to calm things down. I see it as typical terrible twos.

The other night she started screaming at her because she fell off a stool while brushing her teeth. My daughter wasn't hurt, but cried because she was surprised by the little fall (landed on her feel - about 8 inch drop). My wife went from perfectly calm and nice to full of anger and over-reaction. I gently intervened and picked up my daughter to tell her it was OK. I asked my wife not to yell at her - our daughter was just scared, so she cried. We don't need to yell at her.
My wife shouted at me "Easy for you to say!" and stormed off. :confused:

grendel

03-13-2009, 02:10 AM

This sounds like a very volatile situation, especially when you add in alcohol into the picture. :eek: Alcohol abuse problems ALONE can be enough reason to set someone off in a bad way . . . then add in the MS grieving process, potentially some mental health problems. Yikes!

MS is not very common in Japan, but what is more common is a similar disease is focused more in the spinal cord ... With that disease, which they've recently discovered is NOT MS, the usual drugs we take are not effective, and more often detrimental:

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36873&highlight=spinal+lesions

I'm not sure which your wife has, but this is what the Japanese are most often used to dealing with anyway ...

I have had MS for many years, and have opted out of the disease modifying drugs all the way through too. Sometimes that works for us as well as anything else might.

Still, you probably need to let her make that decision on her own, in her own time.

Two year olds can be a handful, but never deserve a smack around the head area . . . EVER! Do you notice she has bad times during the day, where if she could sleep for 2 or 3 hours, she might be refreshed enough to handle situations better? Pure exhaustion can have it's toll, but you definitely need to remove her from the alcohol situation when it is occuring. That just adds fuel to the fire.

Cherie

Hmmm... her doctor may indeed be more familiar with that condition. His initial suggestion for treatment - for the future - was corticosteroids. However, they did find several lesions in her brain, so they must at least feel comfortable calling MS.

She is definitely tired and my daughter wears her out. For several weeks I had my daughter sleep in my bed to give my wife a break, though this was often because my wife was out late and night.

She often complains about how tired she is taking care of our daughter...she has classic MS fatigue, no doubt, along with managing a young child it can be tough. It is a constant stress for her, I am sure. My daughter goes to school from 9am to 2pm however, and I think this gives my wife a big break. On the weekends I am the primary care-giver and playmate for my daughter.

lady_express_44

03-13-2009, 02:43 AM

What dosage and how often is she getting cortisteroids? They are known to cause "roid rage" and mood disturbances for many people.

Two to three drinks a night is too much, if it is affecting her life/actions, etc. I'm pretty sure that would effectively put her in the category of "alcoholic" by most standards, although there are factors to consider too ...

Alcohol is not a problem for us with MS, at least any more than it is for anybody ... generally speaking. It can cause us to have more accidents (due to balance issues), and there are liver concerns (if combined with other meds that affect our liver), and alcohol is regarded as a "depressant" (and many of us we already have enough problems with depression issues) . . . but many with MS drink moderate amounts with no issues from that.

She needs to want to make these changes herself, and it doesn't sound like she is ready to. Maybe she just needs time, and it sounds like you are not wanting the marriage to end either, deep down. Sometimes you have to do that apart though, especially if there is some threat to your daughter.

Cherie

grendel

03-13-2009, 03:09 AM

Hi Cherie,

She is not yet taking the corticosteroids - that is a next step. I know they can cause depression in some people. As far as rage, well as a former career bodybuilder I have seen my share of genuine "roid rage". I sure wouldn't want to see my wife on Halotestin or Trenbolone. ;)

Oh, and I most certainly want the marriage to survive, both because of my own love for my wife and my daughter's sake. Even now I have faith we can overcome this somehow. My wife thinks I am a cynic (I'm from Boston, it can't be helped) but actually I am a pragmatic optimist. I am determined to do what I have to to keep us together and happy long term. Unfortunately separating would mean I have to return the United States - jobless. If my wife got the divorce she often demands, I would very likely have to leave the country.
Not something I want to face right now...

newlyb12def

03-13-2009, 07:39 AM

If she is using alcohol to cope (with stress from medical problems and raising your daughter), that could be contributing to her depression. It sure isn't going to help her see the situation clearly. My guess is that she will respond to your attempts to address her alcohol-intake in the same way as the MS: anger.
How did your wife approach major problems in the past? Did she use information to make decisions, emotions, denial? Most people use a combination of things, and rely on problem-solving methods that have worked with them in the past. That information can be helpful in finding an effective way to approach something sensitive. Right now she seems to be relying on denial and alcohol to cope- you may be able to indirectly offer another coping mechanism. Some people find it's easier to work through problems in talking through things with good (healthy) friends.
I do think it's important to involve her mother. Education is key here. First you need to locate a source of short simply worded (in Japanese) information that covers the basics of what MS is and what it can do to patients. Have other sources of similarly formatted in-depth material handy in case she wants to know more. The National MS Society in the US has great brochures, etc like this and even videos. The trouble is finding this in Japanese if her working English isn't strong enough to understand it. Your therapist or medical doctor may also be a good resource, if she is willing to go with you.
Most of all, let your wife know that you love her- no matter that her behavior has been like recently. She needs that now more than anything. Acknowledge her stress over caregiving as a start (if you relieve some of that, she may have more energy to address the other problems), and try to find a way to reduce that stress: hire a babysitter and take her out to dinner, or send her on a short spa vacation if finances allow.
I sincerely hope that you can work through this, but if you can't I'm sure it won't be due to lack of effort on your part.
-Kay
P.S. A major draw back of interferons is that they can cause or exacerbate depression in some patients- I wouldn't expect any neurologist familiar with your wife's behavior to recommend them for her.

Annie1234

03-13-2009, 12:25 PM

This comes from a friend of mine......

FAMILY HISTORY: Live in Japan with maternal g.mother

Child: 2.5 yrs old, normal development (?), School 9-2 M-F, suffers severe eczema and allergies, asthma & needs some medical attention for scratching.

Father: American, US citizen, weekend caregiver.

Mother: Japanese, loving/sweet until birth of child,
Diagnosed with MS, question of Japanese MS type, several brain lesions, No DMD at present, possible corticosteroids (not anabolic),

MS Symptoms: Classic MS fatigue, immediate short-term memory problems, limb tingling and weakness, inability to stand, memory blackouts, repeating herself, dramatic personality shift, mood swings, overly suspicious and paranoid.

Alcohol - Two to three glasses/night, 7 nights/week.

Depression - Talking of divorce, lacking psychiatric diagnosis and care, no prescription drugs, no known street drugs, late nights out are often.

Rages - Screams at child, verbal and physical (slapping) abuse.

PLAN OF ACTION:

Immediately:

1. Safeguard Child - Remove mother from child's home environment, or...

2. Hire Childcare Provider - Part-time afternoons, in-home. (g.mother supervises household & does h.hold duties as possible).

3. Mother - To go stateside US for initial psych consult (therapist says SSRI's might help) and for MS 2nd opinion, to begin counseling, to begin AA treatment (no alcohol in home or public places).

4. Father - To continue counseling, to seek advice of counsel, to get all documentation.

5. Child - To have physical with stateside US pediatrician.

Note: Unsure that alcohol causes MS exacerbations, but perhaps pseudoexacerbations are what the child's father notices after child's mother drinks.

lady_express_44

03-13-2009, 01:15 PM

That is really amazing, Annie. I had just spent the last few hours trying to summarize the "situation" myself . . and even though it is not nearly as succinct as your postiing, I will post it anyway (so I don't feel like it was a complete waste of time :D), and to make sure we have all the facts:

You are American, your wife is Japanese, and you have been married for 14 years. The first 12 yrs of marriage were very happy, while you happened to reside in America, but within the last two years things have deteriorated. During that time, you moved to Japan.

The two of you reside with her Mom, who is assisting with raising your 2½ yr old daughter, but your wife does not currently get along with her mother. After your daughter’s birth, your wife suffered from Postpartum depression, and then last year she was dx with MS. She is not on any MS meds, as per her neurologist’s recommendation, and she refuses antidepressants. Your wife has had several set-backs from the MS, since her dx.

For about the last two years, you have noticed your wife is having memory blackouts and she is repeating herself. There seems to have been a dramatic personality shift, whereby she is prone to extreme rage and mood swings, and she has become overly suspicious and paranoid. She has been “exploding” at your 2 ½ yr old daughter, screaming out things like “I hate you!" repeatedly. She has slapped your daughter on one occasion that you are aware of, although not in the head area. She blamed you for that outburst.

Your wife has been demanding a divorce since sometime before her MS dx last summer (and perhaps while still in postpartum depression). She says she is unhappy with her life, that she wants “a change”, and she complains that she is too tired to take care of your daughter. Your wife drinks 2 – 3 alcoholic beverages per day, gets “drunk” a few times a month, and she likes to go out at night. On those occasions, you look after your daughter. Your daughter also attends school for about 5 hours each day, and you entertain and care for your daughter every weekend.

Your daughter has health issues, which are very wearing on both yourself and your wife. You are concerned that your wife may not be capable of properly caring for your daughter’s illness at all times, due to her memory issues.

Should you decide to separate, you could stay in Japan with your daughter, but you do not feel you could handle the responsibility on your own. However, if you were to ultimately divorce, you would be forced to return to the US. Your wife is prepared to give up custody. You currently have employment in Japan, but your residency status is contingent on your marriage staying in tact. If you returned to the US, you would not have a job to come back to immediately.

The two of you went to a therapist recently, to discuss your marriage difficulties. After one visit, your wife felt the therapist was not listening to her, so she refused to attend any more sessions. You have since spoken independently with the therapist, and he believes that much of her behavior is as a result of the MS. He is concerned with your wife’s possible increases in rage, her propensity for future physical violence, and for your daughter’s welfare especially if left alone with your wife.

You want to continue with the marriage, but have several concerns.

Cherie

Gary

03-13-2009, 03:21 PM

Hi Grendel,

Your story sounds SO familiar to me.....except that its the other way around I am the one with MS. I spent many years "in denial". I cant believe my wife is still married to me. We have been married for 26 years+. I fought with myself my kids, my friends, my wife and even with my friends on this very board. For some reason they are STILL my friends. Thank God.

Some of the folks here on this board are much more knowledgeable than I am so I will say please listen to them. And many of the folks (Cherie<lady express> ,agate,BBS) to name a few have know me for quite a few years and never fail to tell me what I NEED to hear rather than what I WANT to hear. I say this so you dont feel like anyone is "ganging" up on you. This is a serious situation and warrants some difficult decisions. Please know that they know what they are talking about.

One of the problems (for me anyway) is the cognitive stuff. My trolley literally jumps the track. I have had some psychotic breaks . And after a serious illness last spring I finally realised that 1. I have MS 2. It isn't going to get better 3. Fighting is only making things worse. OK everybody reading this go ahead and jump in and tell all the times that I have needed a reality check.

I really feel for you and the only way some of us can understand is with some HUGE life altering event. I really and truly think that I could have harmed someone. And have come close to slapping my family in the past. The 'roid rage is much worse for some people than others it is really bad for me. I will never do it again ( this is another story) one of my best friends here on this board will hopefully come along soon and post and if she doesnt I will e-mail her. She is a medical professional with MS .

My opinion about the therapist is that it will only help if she is willing to let it help. You might have to threaten to leave with your daughter. But be prepared to follow through. That might just be the wake up call she needs. Although I want to emphasise that I whole heartily agree with Lady express to continue with the marriage but have some concerns.

Please keep coming back to the board. And know that we are here for you. Do not hesitate to ask any questions. Everyone hear has been through some of the things you are experiencing (and worse believe me).

BBS1951

03-13-2009, 04:55 PM

Grendel, you have no choice here. You must remove your children from the custody of their mother. This is a high risk situation. The mroe information you provide here, the more risky the situation sounds. Your wife's behavior is not just due to MS--she sounds out of control and dangerous.

At this point, I have no more desire to read your thread. You are either making all of this up, or you are blind to the safety of your child. If your wife abuses your child (which sounds like it will indeed happen), you could also lose custody of the child to foster care due to "failure to protect".

So, you are either faking this, or you are neglecting your child.

newlyb12def

03-14-2009, 12:24 AM

I will not villanize this woman.

I have never met her, and by her husband's words he does not think she would intentionally cause harm to their child. He has the security of his daughter's school several hours on weekdays, and a grandparent readily available to observe what goes on in the household. From what I read from Grendel's posts, the only abuse that is evident is occasional verbal abuse and 2 incidents of spanking.

I'm not going to say that alcohol/emotional abuse is okay, but many families face difficulties. It is easy to make recommendations when we are removed from the situation. I think that there is a resolution to this situation that falls short of separating this child from her mother.

Grendel is trying to involve his mother-in-law. Perhaps his wife can live separately from them for a short period while father and grandmother take over care of this child- even if all concerned call it a retreat or vacation.

The thing that strikes me is Grendel's wife seems to so easily promise sole custody to him. This signifies 2 things to me. 1) Her daughter is important but 2) she is unable/incapable/unwilling to resume care for her.

I sincerely think that if Grendel's wife's caregiver burden is relieved for some time that she will be able to handle the stresses of her own illness.
The capacity for resolving problems with alcohol can be a hardly ingrained behavior pattern- as are the guilt and denial that accompany alcohol abuse.
Grendel's wife may be unable to admit that she is unable to care for their daughter, and could be pushing Grendel away and relinquishing her custody rights--- in the benefit of her daughter.

I think that the child's safety is paramount, but Grendel has given no evidence that his wife is a real threat to his daughter.
I'm not a doctor, counselor, psychiatrist, etc but...

I think that this woman needs some sober time alone with her thoughts. If she has provisions for child care after her short vacation, I think that she will be better able to address the issues she is facing, as well as the issues in the marriage.

She will be validated by acknowledgement of her stressors and her autonomy in making her own decisions.

Outside child care or the care of the grandmother IS in the best interests of the child right now, but you do not want to try to usurp power from the mother right now. Also, please consider Grendel's wife's past with her own mother. Older now, her past behavior patterns may be less evident. Investigate further, and you may find that is why she is hesitant to entrust care of her child to her.

I submit this as the child of 2 alcoholic parents.

-Kay

agate

03-14-2009, 01:41 AM

After rereading your posts, grendel, I notice how long you were married before having this child. Perhaps your wife had a job during those years--? Whatever she was doing, the experience of having a child and being at home with the child (full time?) must have been quite a jolt for her. It's possible that she's still adjusting to motherhood after many years of having been childless--and just needs some counseling with a qualified therapist to see her through this difficult time.

You do mention that she and her brother get together and drink, and you mention that she's been out late at night. She's tired and irritable. Of course she's tired and irritable if she's out late at night very often.

Most moms of my acquaintance wouldn't have the time or energy for being out late at night very often. And your wife has MS.

Maybe if you could do whatever you can to ease her brother out of the picture, at least for a while, your wife's life would improve.

It's just a thought.

grendel

03-14-2009, 02:36 AM

Hi everyone, and thanks for all the comments, and I appreciate the concern for my daughter.

I just want to say right now that I do not think my wife will harm my daughter in any measurable way. Maybe some will think I am naive - that me be true. I also don't think her drinking will increase the chance of violence - Japanese just aren't genetically wired that way. They really don't get violent with alcohol like we Westerners do. Also, she is not allowed out often anymore - her mother put her foot down as she thought it was inappropriate behavior for the mother of ~3 year old. I appreciate her intervention on this point. My wife is allowed out to see friends on Friday nights only now.

Most of the time she is very affectionate and loving to our daughter, it is just that the outbursts are so out of character that they seem extreme. While I will never condone hitting a child, I see a slap in the arm or hand very different from a blow to the face. While the therapist wants me to be aware of a possible escalation of violence I do not see it as likely in the present or near future. It is only a possibility that I need to consider.

My mother in law headed in to the city for the day so my wife, daughter and I have the house to ourselves. We took our daughter to the local toys store and let her play around. My wife prepared a quick lunch for us. She is now taking a nap upstairs while I play with my daughter (now watching Madagascar).

Some days she is fine. Some days she is not. At first I thought she had borderline personality disorder, but now it seems more likely that the MS has weakened her mentally and some issues she has always had with insecurity have become much more sensitive, hence the paranoia and suspiciousness. My overall feeling about her mental condition is that the insulation around her insecurities has been stripped away, she is like a raw nerve sometimes.

My immediate plan is to provide reading materials for her mother that she can read privately while we are on vacation in Hawaii at the end of this month. Long term I think the psychiatrist's notion of she must get bad enough to accept treatment is wise. I guess I came into this forum impatient and wanting advice on how to get my wife into treatment before she was ready. Maybe this is not a good idea.
Both the therapist and I agree pushing her into treatment will likely backfire anyway... Nothing gets her more angry than even remotely suggesting something may be wrong with her. Ironically, she will occasionally note she has insecurity and trust issues, but she will not hear of this from another person. She is very proud of her intelligence and become extremely defensive should anyone suggest there might be some impairment.

It seems most of you agree with getting her mother involved, so I will definitely try that. At least to educate her on the disease. In the meantime I will bear the attacks and vitriol, pay close attention to her behavior around my daughter and wait for her to accept treatment.

EDIT:

In answer to agate:
Yes my wife and I worked together for over 8 years in the same company. She rose fast and had everyone's respect. I am sure walking away from that hurt her pride and sense of self-worth. She denies this however as she had pushed most to have a child and thus had created this change for herself. Besides the MS, I think she is still adapting to motherhood - particularly with our daughter's illnesses. I think she imagined it to be much easier than it is.
I agree she was adding load and physical stress by going out so late so often. I think this is also part of the reason her mom limited her "out" time. I am sure her mom noticed she was more tired, and my wife was constantly saying how MS makes her tired...1+1=2.

My wife had been going out for two reasons according to her:
1. She missed seeing people in the US as a single mom stuck in the house. She is re-establishing contacts with life-long friends here. I can respect that need.
2. As she believes our troubles are solely my fault she said she was going out to get away from me. I think she says this just to hurt me, as it does and she knows it, and it is nonsensical as we only see each other 1-1.5 hours a night from the time I get home to the time I go to bed.

newlyb12def

03-14-2009, 02:58 AM

grendel

03-14-2009, 03:35 AM

Try not to delve into diagnoses- personality disorders, MS personality changes, depression, etc. She needs to see a psychiatrist to diagnose these conditions (not a therapist either).
Be concerned about her day to day behavior and interactions with you and your daughter. That's the most important measure of her health.
You're likely facing a complex picture of her mental health & unqualified diagnoses can color your interactions with her. Please be cautious of that.
-Kay

Hi Kay you are absolutely right.
This is part of the reason I held back on making my own judgments and got us to the see psychiatrist together for marriage counseling. I tired to educate myself, to find reasons why, to learn what to do and not do.
The doctor (an American board certified psychiatrist her in Tokyo) is the one who suggested several possible disorders after meeting her and listening to my stories. Of course he said he cannot make an effective diagnosis without seeing her more personally, and he knows that will not happen now.

Matthew's Mom

03-14-2009, 04:46 AM

I hope your wife decides to get help very soon.

No so much to be on MS medication, but to see a phsyciatrist and see if a medication will help with mood issues.

Being a grandma of an almost two year old and babysitting him 4 days a week, though he can be a handful at times there is NO reason to hit a child out of anger, a slap on the hand or bottom if a child is touching a stove or doing something dangerous sure.

I really feel in my heart that your child could be in danger when left alone with your wife at this time. Just my opinion though. Until your wife agrees to get help, I would not leave your child with her alone at all.

If there are any MS organizations in your area, please call them and also let them know about the mood swing issues etc. Maybe they could send someone to your home to talk with you and your wife.

I wish you all the best and hope that things improve soon.

Pam

Annie1234

03-14-2009, 06:01 AM

Kay,

People with ON and other eye troubles cannot easily read your post (#24), I'm sorry to say.

Compare your post to the other posts on this page to see how much easier they are to read with paragraph breaks.

Please consider putting into your posts many such paragraph breaks by hitting the enter/return key twice at the end of each paragraph which will leave one blank line between the paragraphs.

Thanks. I look forward to being able to read your post.

~Annie

Annie1234

03-14-2009, 06:26 AM

Despite your backtracking, a mother who "...screams 'I hate you!' repeatedly..." to a toddler is NOT normal and needs help NOW.

I agree with BBS - you are faking or are 'acting' extremely negligent, but I would like to add one more... you are 'acting' demented.

~Annie

Edit: Added the verb 'acting' to de-personalize my statements as required by TOS so that my post won't be deleted by the moderators.

grendel

03-14-2009, 06:40 AM

Despite your backtracking, a mother who "...screams 'I hate you!' repeatedly..." to a toddler is NOT normal and needs help NOW.

I agree with BBS - you are faking or are extremely negligent, but I would like to add one more... you are demented.

~Annie

Wow..
OK I did not expect to be judged and abused here. My mistake.

Perhaps I will look someplace else for advice and or ideas.

Cheers all.

mmcc53

03-14-2009, 10:29 AM

Wow..
OK I did not expect to be judged and abused here. My mistake.

Perhaps I will look someplace else for advice and or ideas.

Cheers all.

You are the second apparently male new poster here recently who has a long involved story about a wife with MS who is not doing what she should.

Your writing style, story, and controlling paternalistic statements remind me an awful lot of that poster, as does your apparent total calm. Like the other poster you are doing everything that can be done to "do the right thing" and your wife is doing everything wrong.

Like the other poster, you present a scenario with an obvious answer - in this case remove the child from danger - and then present a bunch of reasons why you can't.

Like the other poster, your story gets everyone concerned and upset. Like the other poster, you then backtrack what you have posted.

Will your wife "suddenly discover" that you are posting here and start posting herself? That's what the other one did.

People here try to be helpful, but fraudulent posters happen periodically and your story meets all of the criteria frauds use:

1. new poster
2. a long convolulted story that gets people concerned and upset
3. a situation which involves someone "near and dear" who is dangerous, suicidal, refusing treatment, drinking, drug abuse, etc., etc.,
4. A bunch of posts about why they can't do something about the situation, although the fraudulent poster is ALWAYS virtuous.
5. "I'm being picked on" posts with threats to leave.
6. The alleged situations continues to escalate like a soap opera story.

Then some members get all upset and beg the poster to stay. They get angry at those who are concerned about fraud. Eventually, the poster gets the story mixed up if they hang around long enough, although there is usually an explanation for the discrepancies.

Are you surprised that some people are suspicious?

Cherie

03-14-2009, 11:11 AM

I just saw this today and spent the last 20 minutes or so reading, taking notes, trying to summarize and prioritize (thanks Annie) and the more I read, the more incredible and sensationaltional this has all become.

Alcohol is a problem despite your statement of "the Japanese are not wired that way"

Screaming at and slapping a toddler in a fit of rage....also not normal and if anything DID happen to her...you would be held liable as you knew and did nothing to protect.

I would like to believe your story but as you write it...so detached and clinical and defensive and providing excuses or reasoning....I cannot believe that what you write is the truth.

If your wife does have MS, it is not putting her life at risk. Alcohol or bipolar disorder might but not MS.

Jmak

03-14-2009, 11:32 AM

I have stayed away from this post for awhile. I would like to know what accomodations are being made to help your wife during an exacerbation other than her mother's help which doesn't seem to be helping her emotionally and possibly making things worse. If she is unable to stand, poor vision, etc. what is being done and how is she recovering?

If she was dx'ed last fall, it is still very new and scary for a new mom (and spouse) to deal with. I read a willingness to help by going to therapy but not a lot of emotional sympathy. I guess I am a doubter too. Sorry if I am wrong. I have been pulled in before.

lady_express_44

03-14-2009, 11:57 AM

There are some people out there that believe that it is nothing short of abuse to NOT raise your child as Christian . . . because according to them, your child will go to HELL without that belief system. What kind of parent would you be, by their standards, to destine your child to that?

What you do, is YOUR business . . . and it is not our place to make judgment.

I think you came on here for support on how to coerce your wife onto meds and into therapy, and you thought that the more graphic you painted the picture, the more we would see that your assessment was right. Unfortunately that kinda’ backfired on you, because if what you are saying is true, there are some huge red flags regarding your daughter’s emotional well-being and safety.

I don’t think you really believe your wife will harm your child though . . . or you would have removed her (apparently with your wife’s blessing) no matter how difficult it was for you to do that. After listening to some of us, you may have even come to realize there are things you can do differently to HELP ensure your wife does not become over-loaded and respond dangerously. If that is all you learned from this thread, then posting here was worth it.

It sounds to me that your wife is not adjusting to all the changes very well, and she needs professional guidance. She doesn’t like the therapist you saw, so encourage her (or INSIST!!) that she see another one (preferably on her own). I also think it would be worthwhile for you to get some counseling, if only to help you to gain perspective and to remain objective in this potentially volatile situation.

Your wife is not the same person you married ... but that’s what serious chronic illness, grieving & the fear of the unknown does to many marriages/people. Everyone handles that differently and on different timelines, but rest assured we all go through change because of our circumstances. Sometimes we are able to regroup after a while, with the right support system in place, and other times we don’t. It’s really a matter of whether we find coping mechanisms that work for us ...

The question is, can you get through this adjustment, with the least possible collateral damage? It’s kinda’ like those teenage years that you are going to go through with your daughter in the future .... sometimes you have to LET go and hope they come out of it ok on the other side. In the meantime, you need to make sure that you protect your assets (your young daughter, in this case) so that the potential consequences of your wife’s actions do not affect your child negatively, or put her at risk.

I don’t think your wife is happy with you, and/or your marriage, the way it is right now. What might have worked for you for 12 yrs, just isn’t going to work right now (or likely any more). Unfortunately, YOU are probably the one who is going to have to change your approach, if there is any chance of salvaging your marriage.

Get some support.

Cherie

agate

03-14-2009, 12:15 PM

newlyb12def

03-14-2009, 01:49 PM

mmcc53

03-14-2009, 02:45 PM

I'd just like to add that not everybody in this thread thinks you're faking your story, grendel.

I don't think you are. If you are, I still think we have to give you the benefit of the doubt. Anybody posting on this board might be lying. We have no way of knowing, do we?

I don't see any evidence that you're making up your story. Some people are using the fact that others have come along in the past with similar stories and reactions as "evidence" but it's not.

So far, the facts in your story hang together and are consistent.

And it is always possible that the story is the truth, but if it is, he deserves to know why people are skeptical or flat out disbelieving. If he is a fraud, well then......

He said he was leaving after ONE person said he was either "faking or are extremely negligent" Read his posts - insecurity is NOT Grendel's problem. Only an insecure person would threaten to leave because one person said he MIGHT be a fraud.

I would have to say that Annie1234's statement certainly sounds fair. If this person and his story are for real, then leaving a kid in that situation IS negligent. A 2 1/2 year old is not old enough to tell people what is happening and if the mother has gone into uncontrollable rages with others around, how do you think she is behaving when alone with this poor kid?

Personally, I hope Grendel is a fraud. The alternative is worse.

And, I don't care whether telling someone they are negligent is "offensive." This is NOT a situation where telling someone "there,there" is okay. If he has told a therapist what is going on as he has here, no therapist is going to say its okay to leave a baby in the hands of someone behaving that way, especially one who refusing medical and psychological treatment.

grendel

03-14-2009, 08:05 PM

OK everyone...

First off I am no fraud. I cannot imagine doing this for fun.

Secondly, I type in a calm manner because I like to think about problems rationally and logically, as that is how I believe one finds the answers. My tone may seem subdued because I have spent months dealing with this and I operate at a somewhat detached level - it is how I survive.

Thirdly, I do not believe my daughter is in any danger now. I see unfortunate incidents, I look for patterns, I pay attention. I dress her and moisturize and medicate her skin every night , she is not bruised. I do not think she ever will be. I do not see an escalation in the near future. I could be wrong - but I think I am right. I didn't lay out my wife's patterns to demonize her, but to help you all understand why I have to proceed carefully.

Also - I am not going to argue on the Internet.
I have been an active member on dozens of forums of vastly different interests and if there is one thing that I have learned - you never win an Internet argument, you just look childish.

I'm not doing that.

I came here to look for guidance on how to get my wife to accept more aggressive treatment. I was hoping for veterans to tell me how to effectively prod my wife into treatment without angering her or throwing up her defense shields. I thought maybe someone could tell me "No, don't do it THAT way, do it this way...
etc.
Maybe that was foolish and naive.

And some more insight for you all who do not seem to fully understand my situation yet believe they are in a position to judge:
I live in Japan, with a Japanese woman in a Japanese household. In Japan (as elsewhere) the mother has more power in terms of custody. If I push the issue I lose. If I divorce, I have to leave the country. If we went to court I will lose. If I try to leave the country with my daughter I can be thrown in jail and the American Embassy can't do squat.

This is not like the United States. I am part of a tiny minority here and my rights are limited. This sucks in many ways, but it is what it is - for now.

I would rather try to get my wife to accept treatment help her heal herself and keep my family together than start running.

Last night we had a short but intense argument. I tried to breach the subject of more pro-active MS care. She is as I suspected afraid of truly accepting the disease. She can ignore it when she is fine, and only have to face it during an attack. As she thinks her issues are only physical, if there is no tingling limbs she doesn't have MS. If she medicates everyday she cannot forget.

She of course grew upset and very defensive. This peaked and I talked her down. She agreed to accept a name of a doctor in Tokyo who appears to be a top specialist in MS - a Japanese friend found the name and a published paper by this doctor for me online. I only have these opportunities to bring up these subjects on the weekends, as I don't see her that much during the week.

Next step, I will give her the name and gently prod her to see him. In Japan, the state will cover all costs so there is no reason not to go outside of fear.

I appreciate the support of those here who are not attacking me.
Thank you.

newlyb12def

03-14-2009, 08:57 PM

Nobody WANTS MS. Denial is a natural and healthy coping mechanism- up to a point.

I think that most of the forum members here will admit to some form of denial at some point before or after diagnosis.

She will accept things in her own time. Don't push her, or she'll push you away further.

I think that you are making a wise choice in introducing her to a local specialist. She's agreed to think about going. That's a great start--- give her some time to think--- if you talk her to death about it now you may talk her out of going.

I think it's admirable that you want to keep your family together and help get your wife healthy. If you have to talk to her about her medical care or behavior, make sure she knows that you are coming from a good place and your only concerns are for the health or her and your daughter.

Kay

lady_express_44

03-15-2009, 02:58 AM

I revert my original advice, with some highlights . . .

I agree whole-heartedly with Kay . . . you need to let her figure this out for herself.

I was married when the MS became very difficult, and my (NOTE: now) ex was so suffocating, it ruined our marriage. I had to go through what I was, in my own time and my own way, and he wouldn't let me do that. I was so stressed from him "mothering" me all the time, I asked him to leave.

Nobody can understand this until they have experienced it first-hand. I understand that you feel you have lost your wife, but the worst thing you can do is to try to coerce her into adjusting according to your timetable.

I hope you have the strength to weather this storm, and that she comes to her senses when you prove you aren't going to try to control her. She NEEDS to feel like she has some control over her fate, and the way she is acting and responding might be the only thing she some influence over at the moment.

She's a smart lady, and she'll figure it out.

Cherie

... and just add that you need to stay continually aware of her interactions with your daughter.

Cherie

Lady

03-15-2009, 03:33 AM

grendel

03-15-2009, 03:47 AM

Personally, I am a wondering about you and your story grendel. I will not argue or attack you by any means. It is just that you are seem to have an agenda in your pursuit of answers, presumably in the name of helping your wife. Or do you want people on your side of the fence?

We haven't heard her side.:)
Lady

My only agenda is to try to get her to help herself.
I came here because I thought people who have MS and people who live with those who have MS would be he best people to teach me how to do this most effectively. My wife's side of the story is what I said this morning in my post - she does not want to medicate because it makes her aware of the MS daily and that causes her stress and distress.

Many here have told me to back off and let her move at her own pace - this is what I resolve to do at this point. I will give her the name of the doctor I found and let it be. Our psychiatrist advised let her get wore before she gets better - I just really don't want to stand by and watch her get worse...

I think I will sign off for now.
This thread has become about me, my motivations, whether I am authentic, etc rather than about how I might most help my wife.

I thank those of you who have given good advice and backed up the doctor's approach to wait it out. This is hard for me - to just sit and wait...

Annie1234

03-15-2009, 06:00 AM

mmcc53

03-15-2009, 10:15 AM

EXCUSE ME, but this thread should be about the CHILD.

Except for Grendel, of course, if you witnessed someone repeatedly screaming, "I hate you!" to your CHILD, I would like to think you'd remove your CHILD from the abuser immediately....

You hit the nail on the head. It should also secondarily be about the wife.

Grendel, if this is real, you not only received the advice to stop trying to control your wife and her MS meds, but right down the line EVERYONE has told you you need to do something about the child's safety.

If what you posted is real, your wife has no self control, even when being watched by other adults. DEAL WITH THE CHILD'S SAFETY. If this is real, your feelings are absolutely NOT the point.

I am sure you will be back with the next installment.

agate

03-15-2009, 11:37 AM

Since none of us knows you personally or all the details of your situation, and we don't have your wife's input either, our advice here is really not worth much at all. But if you're getting some benefit from bouncing your thoughts off complete strangers many miles away, you're welcome to it.

I agree that your wife would be better off if she could work her problems out at her own pace, without intervention. But since there is a two-year-old who may be in danger during one of her outbursts, I think somebody has to step in.

It has sounded as if you think her mother might be the one to do the stepping in. If she is on the scene most of the time and can be depended on to step in and prevent a situation from getting out of control, then why not have a talk with your mother-in-law and, if necessary, give her some reading material about MS?

Buttons2

03-15-2009, 01:46 PM

I've read all these posts. I'm appalled that someone came to BT for help & instead got judged for being a fraud. You've taken a plea for help to an outcry of child abuse.

If perhaps anyone had a valid link to provide this man on the mental manifestations of having MS,that might have been of benefit to him. Other than some stating to let his wife make her own decisions,I can't recall any posts providing support to him.

Did it ever occur to any of you that the wife might have issues that have nothing whatsoever to do with MS? I believe someone did bring up PTSD or hormone imbalance? If not,then perhaps that could have been considered.

He stated he was concerned about her change in personality. Did any of you experience this in your own life? She didn't receive a death sentence....she was told she has MS- even though it's a very rare condition in Japan.

Some of you labeled the wife as an alcoholic child abuser. It's doubtful the wife would ever want to reach out to anyone on BT for advice,support or information now.

I've personally always felt welcome here & try to include new members in feeling welcome. Maybe it would behoove some of you to remember that nobody's perfect.

This is not a child abuse thread. This is not an alcoholic thread. We have appropriate places to give opinions on that don't we?

He began by giving background on the current situation & asking how to deal with the fact his wife refuses meds. Did it ever occur to anyone but me that she might have been mis-disagnoised, & taking meds for MS could make her health worse?

I've never been to Japan nor have I had much contact with anyone on a personal level enough to understand the Japanese culture.....have you? Maybe slapping a child on the arm or buttocks is normal behavior there?

I'm 59yr old. Spanking a child was NORMAL behavior when I grew up. Before you blast me as a child abuser let me say I have little interaction with small children today (no grandchildren), and I might see today's child rearing as appalling......there's ususally two sides to every story & you might have asked if his wife felt remorse for yelling "I hate you",rather than concluding the husband was making up lies,or worse-condoning child abuse.

You also might consider how the attacks will come across to the many people who lurk on BT. My guess is they will reach out elsewhere for help.

Jenne

03-15-2009, 01:53 PM

Hey, call me a skeptic, but I ,too, think something is fishy with this post.

His posts are just too "too." If you know what I mean. Too well-written, and thought-out, etc. No rational response is doable...

Plus, it seems like MS is the least of this guy and his wife's problems. The drinking, the rage, the abuse. I dunno. Something is off

J

mmcc53

03-15-2009, 02:14 PM

[B]I'm 59yr old. Spanking a child was NORMAL behavior when I grew up. Before you blast me as a child abuser let me say I have little interaction with small children today (no grandchildren), and I might see today's child rearing as appalling......there's ususally two sides to every story & you might have asked if his wife felt remorse for yelling "I hate you",rather than concluding the husband was making up lies,or worse-condoning child abuse.B]

I am 56 and spankings were more common and an accepted practice when people of our age were raising kids.

However, spankings are not the same as hitting a child in an uncontrolled rage, and I don't know about you but I never screamed hatred at a kid. Assuming his account of the situation is accurate, that kid is in danger.

And it doesn't matter what race you are - alcohol very much loosens inhibitions and makes abusive behavior even more likely to occur.

Annie1234

03-15-2009, 02:21 PM

Okay Buttons, where are your links for Grendel -- surely with over 2,000 posts, you must have come across a few to share with him.

Go back and read, very carefully, post #20 again on page 2. My friend is a NYC cop with a degree in Psychology from NYU and has over 15 years experience with these kinds of situations.

If Grendel is genuine, he is being "complicit" in whatever happens to his child, but my friend is now calling Grendel a "FRAUD," and I choose to believe an experienced, educated cop over this Grendel character.

Remorse? Remorse??? "But police officer, no one asked me if I felt remorse from repeatedly screaming 'I hate you!' to my toddler when I was in an alcoholic rage, so it's not my fault my slapping 'got worse before it got better' and injured her."

Grendel got what he/she came for as well as the truth.

Don't forget to bring Grendel those links.

agate

03-15-2009, 02:51 PM

Buttons2, thanks for your perspective.

People have been too quick to call grendel a fraud, in my opinion. I notice that Annie's friend, the policeman, who provided the summary of grendel's situation in post #20, lists under the wife's MS symptoms: overly suspicious. It's possible that some in this thread also have this over-suspiciousness as an MS symptom. In any case, calling a new person here "demented" and a "fraud" is insulting and hurtful.

grendel came to this board presumably knowing that he wouldn't be finding primarily a Japanese viewpoint. He knows he's getting a US/Canadian and European viewpoint here, mainly. If I were living in Japan and found that it was a common practice to slap a two-year-old, I would still be opposed to it. I wouldn't lecture other parents but I wouldn't want to slap my child, and if anyone else slapped my child, I'd be objecting to it.

Shouting "I hate you!" at a two-year-old is verbal abuse if it's done repeatedly. Once may be just an outburst under extreme circumstances, but if it's prolonged or repeated, the child will be frightened of the tone and soon enough learn the meaning of the words.

A child that age shouldn't be living in fear. This is the period when she either builds up trust in his world--or she doesn't. Most of all, she shouldn't be afraid of her parent.

Annie1234

03-15-2009, 03:15 PM

Agate, good point.

And some people who have MS may be suffering from the opposite of being suspicious--being too trusting.

If I err, I prefer to err on the side of a child.

This is my last post to this thread. No more needs to be said.

Edit: Hit submit too quickly. Agate, I called Grendel's actions demented, not him. And a cop usually calls it like they see it, so.

lady_express_44

03-15-2009, 04:09 PM

[B]If perhaps anyone had a valid link to provide this man on the mental manifestations of having MS,that might have been of benefit to him.

Good point, Buttons.

http://www.rims.be/Publications/RIMS_Personality.pdf

http://www.geocities.com/hotsprings/3468/ms_personality.html

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4757430

http://books.google.com/books?id=Bx_YcN8Ckz0C&pg=PA144&lpg=PA144&dq=multiple+sclerosis,+outbursts&source=bl&ots=r1AfS4eP1Y&sig=nG4gJbr3PV0eE6TkRltPDne9D_I&hl=en&ei=YV69SdvQFJqqtQPw8uFK&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/search-results/index.aspx?pageindex=0&pagesize=20&keywords=anger

My anger issues are usually related to "fatigue", so I would recommend the attached link on that subject:

http://www.lamarfreed.net/indexnet.html

Cherie

grendel

03-15-2009, 06:14 PM

OK look - enough people.

It seems like some of you are determined to paint my wife as a demonic child abuser - she is not, and I have done noting to describe it as so.

Read carefully:
I stated a single occasion where my wife yelled "I hate you". Hell my mother did this to me when I was a kid and she was an overstressed single parent. No big deal, especially one time. For christ's sake my daughter didn't even register it. I was just trying to illustrate an out of character moment, demonstrating why I want to proceed carefully.

In regards to slapping: I said once or twice, and not to the head or face.
Some of you have my wife punching my daughter in the face for kicks and chuckles.

The vast majority of the time my wife is a great mother and I do not think some slapping and an occasional outburst as reason to deprive my daughter of her mother and my wife of her child.

I don't know if some of you are dealing with abuse trauma or what, but don't paint my life with your brush.

Jmak

03-15-2009, 07:23 PM

If all you wanted was some advice to help with getting your wife to take a disease modifying drug, that's what you should have asked. You didn't need to give personal information to a bunch of strangers on the public internet. You are new here and don't know us. If your post was by a long term member, responses would have been different.

I would suggest telling your wife to take control of the disease by choosing which drug sounds the best for her. Any action to delay progression is positive and she will feel like she is at least doing what she can. She should try to be as well as possible for her daughter and you.

My husband went into a major freak-out when I was dx'ed. I swear he needed more comforting than me. When I started to learn more about ms, chose a drug, talked to a therapist, and let time go by, things got better. That first year was tough. Maybe you're still struggling yourself. Take it easy.

lady_express_44

03-15-2009, 08:06 PM

I stated a single occasion where my wife yelled "I hate you". Hell my mother did this to me when I was a kid and she was an overstressed single parent. No big deal, especially one time. For christ's sake my daughter didn't even register it. I was just trying to illustrate an out of character moment, demonstrating why I want to proceed carefully....

I don't know if some of you are dealing with abuse trauma or what, but don't paint my life with your brush.

I think you are right that some of us may recognize the red flags, perhaps even because of some childhood or adult situation we've been exposed to.

After all, most of us that have responded are women here ... :rolleyes:

However, that doesn't mean our concern over your daughter's well-being doesn't seem warranted based on what you've told us:

Along with this there has been a dramatic personality shift. She has changed from a sweet loving wife to someone I don't really recognize. She is prone to extreme rage and mood swings. She has become overly suspicious and paranoid. . . .

If I don't get her to help herself she will only experience greater MS difficulties and will tear our family apart with her rage. . . .

There is very real pain for me in this, but when I see her explode at our 2 1/2 year old and scream "I hate you!" repeatedly, I am beside myself. . .

Fortunately my employer is very supportive and has even offered to increase my salary if I need to move out with my daughter. . .

The therapist feels she may also need to intervene on the behalf of my child should something happen when I am not home.
- Do you all think this could backfire? Should I wait longer? . . .

The therapist is somewhat concerned about possible increases in her rage becoming more physical. As of now, it usually manifests in an argument where she will move closer and closer into my physical space, getting louder and louder, and start jabbing her finger at me (no contact made) . . .

The therapist put it quite simply that if it escalates it doesn't matter how big you are if you get a bottle to the back of your head or a knife in the back.

Another complication is that she drinks daily and sometimes to the point of drunkenness. This increases her unpredictability . . .

In regards to my child - she has slapped her once or twice in front of me - though not in the face or head. She swears she does not do it when I am not around . . .

She slaps my daughter ... when she is simply frustrated with my daughter. I try to calm things down. I see it as typical terrible twos. . .

The other night she started screaming at her because she fell off a stool while brushing her teeth. My daughter wasn't hurt, but cried because she was surprised by the little fall (landed on her feel - about 8 inch drop). My wife went from perfectly calm and nice to full of anger and over-reaction. I gently intervened and picked up my daughter to tell her it was OK. I asked my wife not to yell at her - our daughter was just scared, so she cried. We don't need to yell at her. My wife shouted at me "Easy for you to say!" and stormed off. :confused: . . .

She is definitely tired and my daughter wears her out. For several weeks I had my daughter sleep in my bed to give my wife a break, though this was often because my wife was out late and night. . .

My daughter goes to school from 9am to 2pm however, and I think this gives my wife a big break. On the weekends I am the primary care-giver and playmate for my daughter. . .

I am also concerned about the memory lapses in relation to my child. My daughter has severe eczema and allergies, as well as asthma. I am concerned my wife may double-dose her sometime...

Grendel, I am on your side, at least in believing your story, and in trying to help you through this difficult time . . .

I think you really need to keep a daily diary of what goes on though, so you can remain somewhat objective yourself. There has to be some limits in your own mind of how much you think is "too much" before you will act to intervene on behalf of your daughter.

Remember, you are going to have to face that child in years to come, and explain why you permitted her mom to slap her, tell her she hates her "repeatedly", and yelled at her over nothing . . . not to mention what might happen in years to come.

It's either as bad as you've painted it, or it isn't . . . and only you can decide when it isn't acceptable any more. That is your responsibility as a parent.

Cherie

agate

03-15-2009, 08:12 PM

grendel, you've chosen to distort what you previously said. Unfortunately your posts are still here.

And you're exaggerating what others have said about the possibility of abuse on your wife's part.

These two statements of yours make it sound as if your wife's outbursts of rage at your daughter are recurring:

she screams at our daughter for tiny things.

and in another post:

There is very real pain for me in this, but when I see her explode at our 2 1/2 year old and scream "I hate you!" repeatedly, I am beside myself.

And yet just now you say:

Read carefully:
I stated a single occasion where my wife yelled "I hate you". Hell my mother did this to me when I was a kid and she was an overstressed single parent. No big deal, especially one time. For christ's sake my daughter didn't even register it. I was just trying to illustrate an out of character moment, demonstrating why I want to proceed carefully.

If that was all you've described, maybe it wouldn't be quite so alarming. But you've also described frequent drinking and drunkenness episodes, and her frequent talk about wanting a divorce where you would have sole custody of the child.

You've sounded quite a few alarm bells up to now. I think it's wrong to blame those who chose to treat them as alarm bells.

grendel

03-15-2009, 08:29 PM

agate, lady, I see what you are saying and perhaps I made some things sound the wrong way. Despite being criticized as too good a writer here, I do make mistakes in judgment and descriptions.

When I said she repeatedly yells I hate you at my daughter it was repeatedly on a single occasion. We sat down at a table to a restaurant, my daughter would not sit in her chair and started screaming to be in mom's lap. My wife picked her up and she continued to cry. My wife was embarrassed and she said what she said. It not something she does everyday.

This is upsetting for me, and I say so, but this is bigger than me and is not about my feelings. I have learned to swallow my feeling and be as much of a critical thinker as I can be. All actions are weighed against others, for a total sum.

While there may have been some alarm bells, I don't think the openly hostile attack on me, my wife, and our parenting has been warranted.

And Jmak, thank you for you post.
You are right, I said too much and did not do it properly. I typed things out in a way that attempted to show why I want to tread carefully but did not give equal attention to previous history. I devoted very little text to describing what a good wife and friend my wife was for over 10 years, and just showed her current situation. Looking back at my earlier posts I see I was weighing the good against the bad in my head, but only writing the bad - as if you all knew how wonderful my wife was for so many years and could see that. This was not fair.

To all:
I am sorry.
I dumped too much on this board, I unloaded a lot of fear and confusion.
I am having a hard time with this. My wife and best friend no longer loves me, though I still love her very much, and does not want to take care of herself. Maybe I am just being selfish. I don't know.

lady_express_44

03-15-2009, 09:15 PM

While there may have been some alarm bells, I don't think the openly hostile attack on me, my wife, and our parenting has been warranted....

You might be right . . . but you gotta remember that we all have MS, and some of us have anger issues of our own. ;) And, people do have biases based on their personal experiences, fears, and perceptions. Things did appear to be pretty out of control around there . . .

If you were to hang around here long enough, you’ll see we get into these heated debates fairly regularly. While it can be stressful, there is usually a balanced resolution that comes out of the process.

To all:
I am sorry.
I dumped too much on this board, I unloaded a lot of fear and confusion.
I am having a hard time with this. My wife and best friend no longer loves me, though I still love her very much, and does not want to take care of herself. Maybe I am just being selfish. I don't know.

That’s it in a nutshell, grendel. She has changed because of:

- her period of PPD
- the move and your living arrangements
- the disease itself and her grieving process
- trying to cope with a young child
- changes to your marriage
- changes to her lifestyle (stay at home mom, loss of friendships/social outlets, being out of the workforce)
- her fear of the future
- the toll that all of this will have taken on YOU too.

If you did one of those online “stress” tests, I'm pretty sure she’d be in the “extreme stress” category, and you need to appreciate this fact.

The worst part with MS is that many of us can’t handle stress very well any more, and we will short-circuit (for lack of a better word). She is new to this and it will take time for her to figure these things out.

You said she appreciates you occasionally, and I'm sure she is feeling guilty about how she is treating you and your daughter sometimes too ...

This is a hard time, and what has worked previously is not going to work any more. If this marriage is to survive, you need to find new ways to cope, so again I would strongly encourage YOU get some counseling to help you through.

Cherie

agate

03-15-2009, 10:00 PM

grendel, this book might be a place for your wife's mother to start reading. I'm assuming she reads English--I don't know if it's been translated into Japanese:

Rosalind C. Kalb, Ph.D., Multiple Sclerosis Q and A: The Questions You Have - The Answers You Need (3rd edition, Demos, 2004).

newlyb12def

03-15-2009, 11:55 PM

I did some searches and came up with a link to Japan's MS Society contact info:
http://www.msif.org/en/national_support/japan.html

Even though MS isn't as prevalent in Japan, they may still be able to offer you supportive and educational services in Japanese for your wife and mother in law.

Hope this helps.
-Kay

Abby2006

03-16-2009, 07:05 AM

Sorry to hear please just continue to love and support her as she works through it herself

Abby

0357

03-16-2009, 07:59 AM

When my MS became active I went into rages; what would not have normally upset me really upset me and I would go into a rage.

See a psychiatrist--not a therapist--for that is who helped me. I found an older doctor who was more experienced in treating those with MS understood the situation better.

I was put on Trilafon for the rages, Wellbutrin for depression and a low dose of Klonopin to help me sleep at night. The medications did wonders and I was back to my old self. I had no control over my rages...

Hang in there and take care.

grendel

03-16-2009, 08:58 AM

Thanks again everyone.

Special thanks to 0357 for sharing your story. That give me hope.
:)

Buttons2

03-16-2009, 01:11 PM

And I want to invite any of you needing support to join in on the Emotional Support forum here on BT. It makes no difference what your health issues are,we are all in need of finding a warm welcome & cyber hugs to help us get through the days in our "new" lives.

It does help just to know we're not alone in having our lives turned upside down by sudden or progressive illness or disease.*hug*hug*hug

dagaz

03-26-2009, 04:48 AM

One thing you MUST remember is that number one... she feels as though she is a burden to you and that you would or could be happier with someone healthy. I know this, I've been there. As for treatment to me it's scary and I have had m.s. since I was 13. She must be allowed to explore her feeling and realize that m.s. doesn't always mean wheel chair. Give her support but allow her to come to terms with the disease.

I have several other very serious medical issues and when I was going through repeated brain surgeries I always said to my husband " you don't have to go through this." Until one day he got very angry with me and said "your not the only one going through this, I'm going through this too and the thought of loosing you is unbearable."
He feels his hands are tied.
As for her asking for a divorce it's her way of telling you if you can't handle this I understand and don't blame you.

Don't coddle her, do the things you loved to do together and understand when she can't do them as well as she once did.
I'm not on any of the ms meds but I still quad ( I used to dirt bike but broke to many bones my husband sold my dirt bike as I don't have the balance ... he doesn't dare tell me I can't do something).

I wish you two the best of luck and ask her to check this place out.

dagaz