I think I've figured out the core problem(s)

[Aspigander]

I think I've figured out why I have so many problems with my mom. And something that happened just this afternoon seems to support this.

Last week, I was in with my therapist and I told her I think I've figured out why my mom and I don't get along.

1. I don't feel like I can really trust her. The episode I talked here recently about the cat food has to do with this. Also, one time about a year ago she was helping me clean the apartment, as I was having relatives come over...she was cleaning the kitchen and I was looking for a sponge to clean the bathroom. I wasn't finding a sponge and she called me back to the kitchen. I got out there just as she was finishing cutting in half the sponge I use to clean the cats' food dishes. Granted it was kind of a long sponge but she just took it upon herself to cut it. I kind of feel like whenever I'm around her, I'm on edge. What's she going to mess up this time? Also a few instances where she has lied to me, one of which I told the therapist about in this conversation...perhaps my mom isn't a chronic liar but some experiences have I believe contributed to some trust issues.

2. I don't think I can be very open with her about how I feel. I also told my therapist this last Wednesday. My mom thinks, or she seems to imply that she thinks, that I air every single little grievance I have with her...you know, nitpick every little thing (and I am, admittedly, nitpicky, don't get me wrong there). Well that's not entirely the case. Some issues I have, I just don't feel *safe* talking to her about. Of course, as I've told my therapist, some things take so much energy to keep from talking about that it all tends to come out with other issues that do get talked about (which may be why it sometimes comes out very strongly).

Those are the issues that I think our problems boil down to, at least for the most part. And this afternoon, something happened that seems to reinforce the second point (that I can't be open with her). This particular scenario has to do with the vet my parents use and there is a lot of background.

I've mentioned on here I think that I got involved with a puppy from one of their litters that got very sick when she was just 8 weeks old. She was thought to have exocrine pancreatic insufficiency, which means the pancreas isn't producing digestive enzymes and if she had this condition, she was starving to death. There is a specific test for it, but it was not performed...the label of EPI was simply slapped on her. I got attached to her because I had to give her several meals (treated with an enzyme supplement) and try to get her to eat. Even when my parents got back in town, I stayed to try to get her to stabilize. She finally stabilized but soon found herself in danger of being euthanized because the enzymes were so expensive. Well later we found out it was not EPI, she was able to live without the enzymes put in her food. This was one of many strikes against my parents' vet (i.e. there was a specific test that he didn't even offer to perform, and she was darn near put down for a condition she was labeled with that turned out to not be the case). Over the years, I've seen many things that strike me as red flags with my parents' vet. Though, they're swayed by his confident demeanor and the fact he has a bunch of high tech diagnostic equipment. Don't get me wrong...confidence is good, but when you're so confident you don't run a test that is available to confirm whether or not the patient has a certain condition, that goes into the realm of overconfidence and nearly cost her her life. Anyway, though I can't have Nera at my apartment, my parents pretty much gave her to me (she's living at their house), since she would have been put down had I not intervened.

Anyway, in November we took her to my vet because she seemed ill. My vet was concerned about a possible intestinal problem, and told us to go to MSU for emergency ultrasound and emerg. surgery if the condition was confirmed. Unfortunately, when you go to MSU on emergency, things are more expensive then they might otherwise be and we wound up going to my parents' vet for ultrasound the next day. Good news was it wasn't an intesussception as my vet had feared, but her left kidney was huge and infected. Her white blood cell count was obscenely high. A round of antibiotics cleared that up, but it may become a situation where that kidney will have to be removed for her to live.

Anyway, a few hours ago my mom called me. My dad had rushed Nera into the vet this morning. Same story, different month. So she's back on the antibiotics. He took her to their vet. I asked her (at this point I was pretty calm), that for future reference, I would prefer her to be taken to my vet first. I just wanted her to go to a vet I felt more comfortable with. She asked what was wrong with her vet.

Now, my issues with her vet is just one of those things I don't feel safe talking to her about. She knows that I took issue with how her vet handled a euthanasia I was in attendance for in 2007, but that was the extent to which I think she knew. I wanted to tell her that I think there's all sorts of red flags, but I've never felt safe about it. In fact, the only reason I didn't say anything about taking Nera to their vet in November was because I was too upset about the possible emergency, plus not feeling safe discussing it anyway. So when she asked what's wrong with her vet, I instantly knew I was in much deeper than I wanted to be.

I told her just a bunch of stuff. She wanted to know what stuff. I told her she would think I was crazy. She still insisted I tell her. She asked if it was just because of the euthanasia, and I said no. She wanted to know exactly what I had an issue with. So, reluctantly, I told her, all the while fearing I'd get bitten for it.

And you know what happened? You guessed it. I got bitten. She said if we went to my vet, and my vet did what she could but an ultrasound is needed, then we'd have to go somewhere else anyway. That's a lot of time and money (which my parents are helping with, and I appreciate it). I pointed out that unless it was an emergency ultrasound, my vet can schedule for an internist to come out, as she did with one of my cats. Yes, but then that's just another appointment, and more time. Her vet has ultrasound equipment and can just go ahead and do it if he wants an ultrasound. While that's great, it doesn't make me any more comfortable with him.

All of a sudden, she didn't want to talk anymore. She just called to let me know what happened. This wasn't overly surprising, knowing her, but come on. She pressed me for detail, and despite reluctance, I told her, even though I feared getting bitten. And I kinda did get bitten. She kind of implied that they might withdraw their support if I insisted on having my vet see her when she gets sick. Basically, pretty much what I feared would happen if I opened up on how I felt did happen. I opened up to her, despite reluctance, and got bitten.

So, with that long post, I guess I think I've figured out the core issues behind our problems. I did email my therapist today after the phone call. I guess I'll see what she has to say. If anyone here has any ideas, I'm all ears. Just kinda needed to vent.

[peglem]

Can you get therapy sessions together with your mom? It just seems to me like you two really love each other and ultimately are there for each other. I'll bet your mother has a list of what she sees as problems from her perspective.

Really I understand your mother's perspective in the situations you've described here:

Its just a sponge and she thought she was swiftly and effectively solving a little (to her) problem.

She feels more comfortable with her own vet, as do you. Again she probably sees this as a "one stop shopping" issue. Why go to several places to accomplish the same things you could get done all in the same place. I'll bet when the dog was misdiagnosed, the vet would have run the test if he'd been asked to. But, he didn't automatically impose an extra expense. I do understand your point of view though, you feel that this vet is not as competent as yours, and with good reason. Your mom just doesn't agree with you and (I'm guessing) doesn't want to turn it into a big arguement.

Anyway, I think a therapist might be able to get the 2 of you to see things from one another's viewpoint.

But also, I think almost all close family relationships have these kinds of issues (many worse, actually), but you seem (from my perspective) unable to let go of little injustices (again, little from my perspective) and just move on.

[milivica]

Peg hit it. Neither of you are able to borrow the others perspective. Doesn't mean either of you are 'right' or 'wrong'. Honestly I think if you had an 'interpreter' to translate mom nt communication to aspie daughter, and visa versa, you'd both be amazed at what the other is truly thinking.

Nt's are by nature very coded in communication and almost completely dependent on nonverbal communication like tone of voice, pauses in speech, facial expression, etc... where as aspies are almost completely word dependent. Aspies find nt communication to be a big puzzle cause never say what they really mean and cloak everything under some big secret code. Nt's assign nt deeper meanings to aspies. All of that though, is due to our different neurologies, not cause one is nicer or meaner or better than the other.

I definitely understand the feeling of 'getting bitten' and completely identify with you there, having potentially the most nt mother in the world - at least from my perspective, hee hee. Over and over and over I would give her the trust she asked for by saying what I felt, and somehow I always regretted it or even annoyed and offended her, which in turn made me regret saying anything even though she was the one that urged me to.

I too was a nitpicker, I didn't mean to be, and wasn't even looking to blame her for anything but rather to understand what seemed to be yet another puzzle or puzzling memory. I really nitpicked cause I had a big WHY? in my head trying to understand how all the (social) wheels spinned to make things go the way they did, especially when things went wrong. And I get your sponge thing, and want to let you know if you had stronger ongoing appraisal (what really matters and what you can filter out as irrelevant) you would not get hung up on those things. Your mom isn't able to be as aware about details as you because she has a filter in her nt brain that automatically and unconsciously sifts out much of the details of life YOU notice as irrelevant, such as cutting a sponge in half. She can't be aware of it, you can't be unaware of it.

NT's have this sort of huuuuge list of things their brain automatically filters out, where as people on the autistic spectrum don't have that filter. We overload easily because we do not have much ongoing appraisal aka filter. We have a much much much smaller filter, and often filter out things NT's find highly relevant - and puzzling when we filter. Filtering is automatic, weather the filter is large, small, or in a strange area of our brains. Nt's with OCD's, in their area of obsession, they have only a very very small filter...which is why it's called an OCD (there's more to it than that, but that's close enough).

Ongoing appraisal is something you can develop, and when you use it you do so automatically - it is not even conscious. I wish you'd check into RDI with your mom, but I suppose I will become a broken record with the RDI endorsement. Only because it forever changed my life so dramatically for the better when I was 42, and now at 44 continues to give me developmental (social) gains I never could have imagined existed. I mean, how can I imagine development I never had before. And with the development I've been able to bring my autistic son along, it saved his life, it saved our family, I can't endorse it enough. It's a completely different world when people don't feel like a continual intrusion, and instead feel 'joined' with me.

Ok, well now that my response is longer than your post ( :o ) let me again say, I just think your an incredible thinker. And for what it's worth I don't at all blame you for your concerns about your parents' vet. Neva is alive because of you, she's a lucky girl to have you as her 'mommy'.

Try something, try to find a 'bright side' in everything. Do this on an ongoing basis for a week, tell me what (if anything) changes for you. So, when your mom cut the sponge, even if it bothered you, I want you to think, "Hey, at least I have 2 sponges now". No matter what happens, find a positive twist to it - as time goes on, you'll also be able to do that when major things happen. But for now, do that with all things that aren't very major. It will help develop your episodic memory, and ongoing appraisal - those are two core deficits you have with aspergers. Since you are such an excellent thinker, I know you can do it. Took me about 6 months to begin to get the hang of it when I was 42, and I thought is was stupid and not do-able, I thought that not everything has a positive twist but I ws wrong. And I'm not saying deny what upsets you, denial is different than putting a positive twist on everything. Doing that was one of the several things that changed my brain forever for the better. Changed my life forever for the better. I think even if you're nt it would be a good thing to do, but particularly for asd's with severe deficits in those areas.

HalfAsped,
Lisa

[Aspigander]

Thanks Peglem and Mili. :) I'll respond to both of you tomorrow, probably in two separate posts.

I will say that I did talk further with my mom about the vet thing. And my vet, on speaker phone, in my mom's presence. I am more comfortable with my vet's suggestions about Nera, and my mom seems to be in agreement with the current plan. She *did* admit that while she likes her vet, there may be somewhat of a male ego thing going. She even said it might not be a bad idea to question some things he says if I research and find something. She's just afraid (understandably) of how I might do it.

[Aspigander]

Peg,
I think I do understand what you're saying, and I agree with you and Mili that it's a perspective thing.

I think what bothers me most about the little things (at least little from her perspective), such as the sponge thing, is it seems to be kind of a respect thing. When I was growing up, I learned the concept that when you're using something belonging to someone else, you make sure and leave it in the condition that you found it. She found the sponge in one piece, and rendered it in a different condition than one piece, without checking with me first. If I came to her house, and thought of doing something with her stuff that would put it in a different condition than I found it in, I'd check with her first and make sure she was okay with it. Why? Because I respect that this is her home and her stuff, and even if it makes perfect sense to me, I'm not going to do something that changes something of hers without checking first. It just seems that common courtesy would dictate that I do that, and when it is my home and my stuff I'd appreciate being treated with the same courtesy.

We've talked several times since about the vet issue. She said it is kind of a sticky situation because, my parents have talked to their vet about surgery (as Nera may at some point need one of her kidneys removed), and without going into detail, it may be less expensive to have their vet do the surgery than mine (or rather have my vet schedule a surgeon to come to her hospital) (we don't know, but it could be). Which would be a factor. She said that if I politely questioned her vet on things that don't make sense to me, he may be able to slow down and explain it so that it does. She said that he may seem abrasive to me, but one thing she's afraid of is me going into his office and...erm...blurting out my disgruntlement and saying something that nobody is going to appreciate. I've yet to say something directly to his face, but my mom does worry that that may happen.

Mili,
I'll try to respond to your post later on this evening. :)

[Aspigander]

Peg, forgot to put this in my above post: Sometimes I will ask my mom to go into therapy with me. It might be beneficial to actually do therapy together, just not sure how that would work with insurance. I get 20 sessions per calendar year, whether I ask my mom to be present or not. If we decided to deliberately do therapy together (I'm assuming you mean that as opposed to the occasional request that she accompany me), I'm not sure if we could have her scheduled some of the time and have it be her insurance or not. I kinda doubt it. Sometimes it may be beneficial to have her come in with me, but then I don't want too many of my 20/year sessions to be both of us. You know what I mean? Some things I may want to talk about that I may not be ready for my mom to hear.

Mili,

Honestly I think if you had an 'interpreter' to translate mom nt communication to aspie daughter, and visa versa, you'd both be amazed at what the other is truly thinking.

Wanna move to Michigan and be just that interpreter? LOL. Seriously though...is there such a thing?

I know what you mean that aspies are almost totally word dependent. The one non-word thing that I am very sensitive to is tone of voice. In fact, I mentioned to my therapist just last week...earlier that week my mom was wishing I would stop talking about what I was talking about (but I was in one of my "she doesn't get it and I have to make sure she understands" modes). Anyway, she said "please stop", but never did she even start out in a calm tone...it was a frustrated tone from the get go. Obviously I can't demonstrate the tone to you (as I was able to with my therapist), other than to say it was an annoyed, raised volume/almost shout tone. All of a sudden she goes: "I asked you nicely to please stop!" And I'm thinking...and this is what I said to the therapist...um, no she didn't. She just injected the word please and called it nice. My therapist said yeah, tone makes a difference (she said she was trying to explain this to another client...difference between this other client and my mom is my mom is 51 while the one my therapist was talking to was eight).

Other than tone though, I am VERY word dependent. I could probably take everybody in this forum to a fancy dinner at an expensive restaurant if I've had a quarter for each time in my life my mom has told me "words are cheap" or something to that effect. Now, I'm thinking from the NT perspective, she's probably thinking: "She's saying one thing with her words, but I'm getting something totally different from every other cue in this communication." While I am thinking: "No...words are not cheap. Words are almost all I have to receive and convey information. Words are priceless."

Nt's assign nt deeper meanings to aspies.

Could you elaborate? Are you saying that NT's suspect (for lack of a better term) ulterior motives (again lacking a better term) on the part of the aspie?

Interesting mention of ongoing appraisal/filtering/episodic memory. I tend to think I have "some" of that. Case in point: I just told Peg in my response to her that when at my mom's house I leave things the way I found them unless I ask for her approval. Well...something happened Monday night that kind of flies in the face of that. I was fixing a frozen dinner (which she had pointed out as okay for me to do). Well I find the corn in TV dinners...erm...needing doctoring. So I looked in the door of the refrigerator where condiments are if there are any, saw barbecue sauce, and mixed some in with the corn. Well, I think this is because, one time, actually several, I've asked if there was some condiment I could doctor some food with, and the response always has been "I don't know. Check inside the door of the refrigerator." Kind of similar if I want coffee from the carafe, or sugar for said coffee...those things have been previously established as okay, and I just don't need to ask her every single time if I want coffee or sugar. Is that the kind of thing you're talking about with ongoing appraisal and/or episodic memory?

I did order an RDI book from Amazon...it's Relationship Development Intervention with Children, Adolescents, and Adults. I know we won't have the funding for actually getting a consultant, and I don't think my mom has the time for daily work on it...pretty much the only thing "constant" in her life is she goes to work. The rest of her schedule can be wide open (generally not), or filled with umpteen things. You just never know. Even if we did manage to carve some time to actually work on activities, some of the activities in the book...well, they seem a tad juvenile, and I'm not exactly sure how to adapt them to suit a 25 year old novice. When I got the book, I expected there to be clearly defined "children activities", "adolescent activities", and "adult activities", and we'd only need to skim for the "adult activities". It doesn't seem to be in quite that format. Any ideas? Are there ways to adapt the activities to my level?

I like your positive twist idea. Problem is, I'm not sure I can do it in the heat of the moment...it would probably be later after I've calmed down, and after I've already gotten both of us upset. Know what I mean? It would be nice if I could do it right away as it happens and at least not have the whole conversation go south. The other thing...I know you said don't deny what upsets me, but I think I would feel like I was doing that by finding the bright side. For example...well using your example of at least I now have two sponges...well, I might think that, and then the next thought would probably be: "So why are you upset that she cut the sponge? That's kinda silly." And I don't want to tell myself that something I am thinking is "kinda silly".

[milivica]

Our RDI consultant is the only 'interpreter' I've ever found in my life.

I'd really love to explain everything you asked me to, but I swear it would take me a good hour or two to type. I'd be more than happy to give you my phone number, we could set up times to talk (I have gobs going on here). Might sound weird to suggest this, but, well I don't see why I shouldn't. I absolutely know your are on the cusp of all the same growth and discoveries and development I've made, and continue to make. I was on the cusp just like you for decades, and I'm not kidding. And I thought and thought and thought myself silly trying to figure stuff out that simply cannot be logically figured or calculated.

I'm for sure not nearly as gifted as our RDI consultant, and am not an RDI consultant by a long shot, but can help you so long as I am developmentally ahead of you. I will tell you with all my heart that seeing my son be able to experience sharing and connect with others and experiencing it myself feels like a miracle every single day. You're brains and attitude are perfect for learning, you are a question asker and are open to learning, you are curious instead of defensive or bitter or resentful, you have everything going for you girl cause you have a wonderful spirit about you.

I could tweek any exercises in the book for you to be more age appropriate. Doing RDI is a LOT like improv you see comedians doing, that have to sort of think on their feet and when heckled, they need to be able to have an even funnier response than the heckler fire through their brain.

I had no 'guide' to work with me, my husband was supposed to but that was very occasional. But I did have our RDI consultant to explain things and give me ideas and tips. She often talked to me for hours on the phone, giving me things to do. I remember when she told me the same as I told you, only she called it 'positive episodic memories' which confused me since I didn't really have them. She told me to find positives in everything. I recall telling her that's not possible cause some things don't have positives to find. She said "Sure they do, give me an example." So I said "What could you say positive if you'd been on the Titanic when it sank?" and she quickly said, "I survived". I said, "Yeah, but you'd have lost your whole family, so how could you be happy."

What I was not able to mentally do at the time, was 'record' things in my head with emotional memories. My memories were all sort of factual (example, the boat sunk....The End) and the moment something negative happened, I was sort of 'done', it was 'ruined' and I remembered the whole event as ruined no matter how many good things happened. Example, three years ago we all went to a cabin by the lake together, it was a fantastic time the whole time, other than the second to the last day when my husband dropped the d@mn keys to the cabin somewhere in the lake! We did get back in, and there was a spare key, so the event should have been resolved. However, when I looked at a picture of that weekend and the consultant asked me to describe the picture...first described what was in the picture, "We are all sitting around the fire by the lake", she said, "See, no episodic memory". I said, "Ok, if you really want to know what I'm thinking when i see that picture, I'm thinking that he lost the d@mn keys in the lake". She again said, "No episodic memory". Well, I was angry, wasn't that an emotion? She asked my nt daughter to describe the picture and she said, "I was pretending not to see the camera, and my dad was trying to not get mad cause my brother started talking about his penis". She had an EMOTIONAL memory when she looked at the picture. When she asked Vince, he too said, "We are all sitting around the fire", which was evident by the photo.

So, I 'recorded' the whole four days with the ONE event that went wrong, "he lost the d@mn keys" despite that being the one negative thing in a hundred good things. If that happened now, I'd feel like, "Whew, I'm so glad we got back in!" By continually finding that positive twist, your brain not only starts to automatically do that, but your MEMORIES become positive...and what are we as people other than a compilation of our MEMORIES. See? When our memories are negative, our past feels negative...in fact it most often isn't the bad events that happen that makes our memories bad but the way we INTERPRET the events (as negative instead of positive) that gives us bad memories....

I could go on, dunno if I'm even making sense here anymore. If you want to talk pm me your phone number and I'll pm mine (pm=private message, an option here, click on my name to private message me then only I will see your phone number). I'll talk to your mother too if she'd like, I can 'translate' for you two I think, cause I'm an aspie AND a mother of a child with autism. I know how it goes on both sides. I am able to frustrate the crap out of my mother and be frustrated by my son...though that is far from unusual, hee hee.

Ok, well so much for not posting for an hour! This whole 'awakening' is so beyond what I ever could have imagined, I marvel at and enjoy things that nt's do completely automatically and take completely for granted cause they've always had abilities I am just gaining. Not knocking nt's, everyone takes for granted what they've always had so cannot compare what it's like not to have it. Know what I mean?

Lisa

[peglem]

Quote:
Nt's assign nt deeper meanings to aspies.


I believe Mili means we read more into what you say than you actually mean because its the way we communicate- not that we are conciously trying to be deceptive with one another, but because we grow up from infancy learning all that nonverbal communication. We learn it w/o even realizing it and so we look for the implied, or "between the lines", "what do they really mean" communication that is not spoken. It never occurs to us that there may not be an unspoken meaning, we just do it subconsciously and we'd have to consciously stop ourselves from doing, but 1st we'd have to realize that we are doing it. By the same token, we are often not aware of the messages we are sending out with our body language.

example: Allie had a dental appointment Friday. We waited for over an hour in the waiting room, which I don't even mind doing when they are really busy- but the other 2 patients who were there when we came in had already been seen and left and 3 patients who did not even have appointments came and went during that time- we could see staff just kinda lounging about back there. I hate complaining and resent having to complain. So, I asked the receptionist (who hadn't seemed to notice how long we'd been waiting, even though my daughter kept turning off the lights and making her presence obvious.) how much longer it'd be. She went back to check and said they'd be with me shortly. I wanted something a bit more specific- not down to the minute, but y'know..5, 10 minutes, 1/2 hour? She said as soon as they got a room ready for her. So we finally get called back and there's like 7 employees standing right by the door, all greeting Allie. (what had they all been doing that made all of them suddenly available at the same time?) They apologized for the wait (I'm not angry, really, just perplexed) and I just asked what took so long- the hygenist mumbled something under her breath about a new office manager-kinda rolled her eyes). So, okay, now I get what's happening and I'm okay, because Allie's care is getting underway. So as the exam is started this women steps in from the hallway, asks if I'm mom and says she needs to talk to me. So takes me into the neighboring exam room and starts apologizing profusely about the wait and explaining how really busy they were with many patients exiting through the back where I couldn't see them. I know its bunk, but I don't really care. Nothing she said was really objectionable, but her body language was very intimidating and I felt like I was being scolded instead of getting an apology. I'm sure that's not how she meant to come across...but I read what she really felt louder than what she was telling me with her words. Now, maybe she really meant the words, which I heard well enough. I didn't try to create a meaning-its just what came across without me even thinking about it.
So, my point is that we read meaning into your body language w/o even thinking about it and often we can't even understand what you really mean because the unspoken language isn't present or is telling us something totally different from what you're saying.

Sorry, I intended to be brief...

[milivica]

Peg said this wonderfully:

we read more into what you say than you actually mean because its the way we communicate- not that we are conciously trying to be deceptive with one another, but because we grow up from infancy learning all that nonverbal communication. We learn it w/o even realizing it and so we look for the implied, or "between the lines", "what do they really mean" communication that is not spoken. It never occurs to us that there may not be an unspoken meaning, we just do it subconsciously and we'd have to consciously stop ourselves from doing, but 1st we'd have to realize that we are doing it.

In addition, nt's can't NOT read body language. It's neurological and involuntary, they can 'turn off' even if they wanted to. Now, consider this, since we aspies don't read body language, we don't LEARN what body language goes with what feelings...though we all seem to do anger going with loud volume pretty well, hee hee. So, if we aspies don't learn automatically what emotion goes with what body language, if our brains don't automatically record that, then our body language is DIFFERENT than nt body language. We are a straight forward breed, nt's cannot (without practice and training) hear an aspie without projecting their intentions on us, and, will automatically hear our faulty/DIFFERENT body language louder than our words. Our body language may be saying 'i am lying' when we are completely truthful, because our brains never recorded that when we lie we should shift our eyes or shift from leg to leg or increase our heart rate. And when we do have ulterior motives, they are fairly transparent.

Back to reading body language being involuntary....if someone is baking a delicious food, and the smell lofts though the air you can't NOT smell it, your sense of smell is involuntary. Sometimes the smells are wonderful, sometimes though someone that hasn't bathed in weeks sits next to you on a bus or takes a major dump in the stall next to you and you can't NOT smell the foul odor. Sometimes a sense of smell makes you feel pleasure, sometimes not so much. When you read body language, what I'm discovering, is sometimes it's hard cause when I get a nasty 'look' it goes straight to my heart and I feel it unfiltered and I can actually FEEL their hate....where as if someone said "I hate you" I only heard the words and though I understand the definition of 'hate' didn't feel an emotion just cause I understood the word so could blow it off. But not so easy to blow off a hateful scowl, to my surprise. But I wouldn't go back to the comfortably numb parallel existence I had. No way. I am however feeling more and more grateful I was mind blind in high school which was hard enough even as an aspie! And am from first hand experience finally, understanding that nt's do not have it made like I once thought. I had no idea how many people feel negative about one another and how often...omg it's like an emotional minefield of explosions all day every day when you can read body language! LUCKY for me, when I get a dirty look, shortly after I feel uncomfortable my brain just snaps into a positive like "Wow, she thinks I'm a b!tch and hates my guts, that is soooo amazing, I can totally tell, I feel like a psychic, this body language stuff is amazing, wow!!!" Now back to episodic memory...by putting a positive twist in my brain (which at this point is automatic for me due to all the conscious practice in the past year or two) the memory I have over and over again is the joy of finally being able to read people rather than the memory of someone hating me. As those positive memories build and build, can you see how that impacts the way I see my entire past, as well as my present? What a difference!

[milivica]

For example...well using your example of at least I now have two sponges...well, I might think that, and then the next thought would probably be: "So why are you upset that she cut the sponge? That's kinda silly." And I don't want to tell myself that something I am thinking is "kinda silly".

Ok, then say to yourself, "Well, I'd rather be kinda silly than kinda smelly!"

That's another positive twist. It takes practice, that's all. You will not believe how consistent positive twists on everything can impact your entire life. Give me ANY example, I can find a positive now.

You have to find YOUR positive twists, what might be a bright side to me won't do much for you. If thinking, "Well at least I have two sponges now" isn't a positive for you after you give her a sponge, then you could think, "Cripe, glad I didn't hand her my cat!" and invent a positive (cause I'm sure she wouldn't actually cut your cat in half...but if she did, you'd have two kittens - kidding!!!)

If you want, just for fun, you and I can practice positives here. I'm sure everyone here can join help too, and I'm sure everyone could really benefit from practicing to see positive twists, nt's can struggle with that too, but asd's always struggle with positive episodic memory, always, without exception. It's one of the five core deficits of autism. If you can do this, you'll only have 4 deficits left. Hard to believe it can be that simple ain't it?

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Ok, then say to yourself, "Well, I'd rather be kinda silly than kinda smelly!"

That's another positive twist. It takes practice, that's all. You will not believe how consistent positive twists on everything can impact your entire life. Give me ANY example, I can find a positive now.

You have to find YOUR positive twists, what might be a bright side to me won't do much for you. If thinking, "Well at least I have two sponges now" isn't a positive for you after you give her a sponge, then you could think, "Cripe, glad I didn't hand her my cat!" and invent a positive (cause I'm sure she wouldn't actually cut your cat in half...but if she did, you'd have two kittens - kidding!!!)

If you want, just for fun, you and I can practice positives here. I'm sure everyone here can join help too, and I'm sure everyone could really benefit from practicing to see positive twists, nt's can struggle with that too, but asd's always struggle with positive episodic memory, always, without exception. It's one of the five core deficits of autism. If you can do this, you'll only have 4 deficits left. Hard to believe it can be that simple ain't it?

Aspigander--- I hope you take Mili up on this offer.

My son was born blind, and he is lacking in some body language interpretions, but as he has grown into adulthood he has learned alot. He is well liked at work, he gets along with people well, and is not judgemental at all.
He scored mixed aspie/NT on the test you posted here. He was severe ADHD and bullied alot in middle school, for being "different".

One can be on the spectrum and understand how to behave in our world.

What I see in these posts is a lack of willingness for you to grow/change.
You have a them vs me attitude, which in the end works against you.

Really... this post about the "sponge" ! What was really happening that day?
Was your mother reluctant and complaining while helping you? "You don't even have a SPONGE to clean with"?

OR was she being helpful and trying to get you squared away?

If the former, I can sort of understand how a "sponge" could become an issue.
Safer to grouse over that, than the REAL issues.
If it is the latter? Then you need to start to understand that you are NOT the center of the world and that others live here too.

After reading your posts, I see a very smart articulate person
Who either CAN'T or WON'T expend some effort socially.

Mili can help with the CAN'T, and if it is WON'T, then I really think you are going to have a hard life.

[milivica]

What I see in these posts is a lack of willingness for you to grow/change. You have a them vs me attitude, which in the end works against you.

Huh. I'm not seeing that at all, not even a little. Dunno if I'm correct or not, but I'm seeing (about the sponge, which was a great example) is the inability of a brain with autism to filter out insignificant things, so, they feel very significant. She didn't want the cut sponge to feel significant, but couldn't help that's the way it felt. Just like if (for instance) you want to buy a 12oz can of tomato paste and the store is all out so you buy 2 6oz cans, you CANNOT force yourself to freak out that the store doesn't have what you expected it to have, your filter in your brain is too large.

What is significant is a completely personal thing, what is significant to you might be trivial to another. What I'm hearing might be wrong, but reminds me of when I had not yet been helped by RDI and though I realized way way too many minor things were way way too significant, I was unable to not freak out.

If I read Aspieganders post as though she had a chip on her shoulder, I wouldn't even try to be helpful. When I had my chip, and wow it was a big one, there was no reasoning with me. I think it was a defense mechanism, I thought the world was wrong I was right and it should change to suit me...probably cause I was woefully unable to change to suit the world at the time.

Ok, just my take on the sponge post and other posts to, can't say I'm right but I'm just not getting a 'lack of willingness' vibe, just a lack of ability (due to neurology) and for sure am getting a 'I want to grasp all this, it's like a big puzzle' vibe.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Huh. I'm not seeing that at all, not even a little. Dunno if I'm correct or not, but I'm seeing (about the sponge, which was a great example) is the inability of a brain with autism to filter out insignificant things, so, they feel very significant. She didn't want the cut sponge to feel significant, but couldn't help that's the way it felt. Just like if (for instance) you want to buy a 12oz can of tomato paste and the store is all out so you buy 2 6oz cans, you CANNOT force yourself to freak out that the store doesn't have what you expected it to have, your filter in your brain is too large.

What is significant is a completely personal thing, what is significant to you might be trivial to another. What I'm hearing might be wrong, but reminds me of when I had not yet been helped by RDI and though I realized way way too many minor things were way way too significant, I was unable to not freak out.

If I read Aspieganders post as though she had a chip on her shoulder, I wouldn't even try to be helpful. When I had my chip, and wow it was a big one, there was no reasoning with me. I think it was a defense mechanism, I thought the world was wrong I was right and it should change to suit me...probably cause I was woefully unable to change to suit the world at the time.

Ok, just my take on the sponge post and other posts to, can't say I'm right but I'm just not getting a 'lack of willingness' vibe, just a lack of ability (due to neurology) and for sure am getting a 'I want to grasp all this, it's like a big puzzle' vibe.

I have read her blog, and I read the posts here too. I get the feeling that there is more understanding behind them on a deeper level. They appear pretty sophisticated to me, and not naive.

We all bring to the internet different reactions. Aspiegander strikes me as very very intelligent and experienced with medical and psyche interventions.
It is hard to know which way "the wind blows" with these written forums.
We only have what is written here, and the manner in which it is presented.
Sometimes when I read here I get the feeling I am reading a BOOK. A character. This tells me that the posts are that good. If any one thing sticks out for me it is obsessiveness. Many NT people have this trait. It is not unique to the autism spectrum. I not only respond to the words printed here by all posters, but I do sometimes FEEL additional things. And one thing I feel about this thread is that the posts by Aspiegander have more understanding and feeling in them, than they would superficially suggest.

And I think it is a good idea, Mili that you would offer to help. If your take is the correct one, then Aspiegander has nothing to lose and everything to gain by accepting your generous offer. In fact, it would expadite her therapy and maybe save her alot of bucks as well.

[milivica]

In fact, it would expadite her therapy and maybe save her alot of bucks as well.

Hey, that's a positive twist! Good job Mrs. D., way better than saying too bad she can't have a real RDI consultant.

Aspigander, there is one thing I want to make sure you know. First, the more we use the sponge story you told, the more I realize it is an excellent excellent example of what happens in an aspie brain. That was a great example you posted. I want to be sure you can distinguish something too...when you have thoughts you fear are 'silly' such as being upset about the sponge, I want you to differentiate between your neurology and you as a person. You're neurology may create 'silly' thoughts or feelings but you and your personality and your character are not flawed. You're neurology is underdeveloped in a few areas, and they can be developed, and that will make you automatically not upset in the future in those sponge type situations. I used to blame myself and feel flawed and broken and was frequently called retarded and certainly felt that way, I was not realizing it was my neurology and not ME that was the issue.

If you are aspie or autistic, YOU are not flawed or broken or damaged goods, you have a few areas of your neurology that needs more wiring. That's it. Don't put it on yourself, and if you have, start learning to give yourself a break and realize it's just your wiring, not YOU. You are 100% person. You might already know that, took me till a few years ago to discover that about myself and my son.