It's over...

[Pamster]

I am leaving Jack this time. We had a huge blow up and it was just beyond tolerable limits, I nearly left Saturday afterwards too. But he asked me to stay a month to help him get it together so he can care for Jackie...I posted here too about this:

http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=43048

I gotta hand it to him though he's leaving me alone and tonight when my monitor died he pulled out the other one we had planned on using for Jackie's system but it had to come out for me now. I'll give it back once I have bought a new one to go with the dell. :)

[milivica]

You know I'm behind you all the way.

I loved hearing your 'attitude' on the phone, not putting the responsibilities of Jack on your shoulders. All the stuff you could have been telling yourself, "what about this, and what about that, and how will this or that work" you weren't feeling or saying or putting ALL on yourself. Know what I mean? Just everything about your demeanor made me feel relieved, like now you can really start on YOU...actually I think you started long ago, and now your in action mode. Be nice if Jack ended up getting his sh!t together, believe it or not I'm not against him per say, but would like to kick him hard in his 'happy place' when ever he hurts your spirit that's for sure.

No one enjoys seeing someone victimized, not even the victimizer...and if that's what Jack has been doing, then he feels like a monster for it and will feel relief in this (mostly panic, but relief too). Everyone wants to see a would-be victim stand strong and say "No more", especially the bully, I really believe that having once been a bully myself - way back when I was not medicated and would be a psycho nightmare to my dh. Cripe I'd feel so lousy, the things I'd say, I dunno what would come over me, or how he forgave me over and over. Of course, payback is a b!tch, now he's in almost perpetual pms, lol.

I'm routing for you in the biggest way. Someday when we meet (cause you just know we gotta!) let's go out for chili!!! My treat for sure!!! LOL!

Love you Pam,
Lisa

[LIZARD]

((((((((((Pam)))))))))))). :(

You're doing the right thing, hon'. Just believe that. I'm so sorry that you have to leave Jackie, too. :( You certainly DO deserve better. Please never, ever lose sight of that. We're all here for you!


*hug *hug *hug *hug *hug


LIZARD :)

[Pamster]

Thanks Lisa, Thank you LIZ, you both have been wonderful friends to me over the years, and I can only hope that I have been as good to you both as you've been to me. I am definitely going to need my friends during the rough months ahead, just a bit ago I was feeling so overwhelmed I broke down and cried, Jack was in the other room thank god, but I called Mom and talked with her so I felt better after that. :)

[MaryEvelyn]

(((HUGS))) We are all behind you every step of the way.

[LIZARD]

You have always been a great support to me! Now let me be there for you.


*hug *hug *hug


LIZARD :)

[Pamster]

Thank you MaryEvelyn. that means so much to me to know you and the others care as much as you do. I know it's time, and I know I'll be much happier with time. BUt for now I am miserable. But I won't back down this time. I am going to stay strong. :)

Thanks LIZ, You are such a wonderful lady, I am so grateful for your support and friendship. :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Oh Pam, I'm sorry...but I too am happy to hear such strength and focus from you!!!

I will be praying that the best things come from all of this!!!!

I'm having a hard time looking at the screen today...I've had a pounding headache for almost a week, and I gotta get to the Dr...please forgive my short note...it's not at all because I don't have something to say...

Please know you are in my thoughts!

Be good to yourself! Here's to a HAPPY New Year!
KJ

[GinaMarie]

I understand what you mean about your husband. Thats why I told my husband (well now ex) he is is out. Thank the Lord I was able to keep my house and my boys. My dad sold me this house and put it in MY name since it was my grandma's house.

I'll be praying for you. My boys dad is so verbally/emotionally abusive even to his boys. I dont want his influence on them either tho sadly they are still acting like him evem tho Im trying to be the better influence and trying to raise them to be "GENTLEMEN" and not just "MEN". :)

HUGS,
Gina Marie

[Pamster]

So Jack and I were talking and I HATE myself for backing down. But I don't think I can leave my son. I hate myself so much right now...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Pam...don't be mad at yourself! NO! NO! NO!

If you are not comfortable thinking about leaving Jackie, then you'd be a mess if you did.

Be calm, not angry and hurtful to yourself...I'm sure that you will come up with an alternative...I can think of 3 right now, but not sure how possible they are, but to just give you a starting point:

-marital/parental counseling
-boot him out on his but!
-take Jackie with you (maybe to your mom's?)

I'm sure that these obvious ideas have already come to you, but try to think of them freshly...as an example, one thing that DH & I have discussed several times (although have NOT followed through on) is going to the church for precaina (sp) type counseling...we never did do that, but it just seems that the focus on OUR marriage is pretty much nonexistant...that clearly can have ramifications, so far we've been able to muddle through...but Coley is only almost 6. If we keep going like this.... I'm not sure that for us that therapy is really necessary as much as just sorta 'remembering' and 'refocusing', ya know...

Even adults act out when they aren't getting what they need...that parenting class has really helped our 'perspective' a ton! It's hard just muddling through when there is SO much to wade through...you have to make time for important things...that will clearly spill over to Jackie too (the good & bad of it) and vise versa!

Blah blah blah...I'm sure all this has gone through your head...my only point is to not be mad, it only wastes time and energy...relax & try looking at things with a new eye...I'm sure you can come up with something that will be more comfortable to you.

Keeping you & your family in my prayers!!!!

[MaryEvelyn]

leaving your son has to be the hardest thing that a Mother would have to do. I would not be strong enough to make that decision and I would never fault a mom who could not do this. (((HUGS))) I love ya sis so I will keep praying for you.

[Pamster]

I just feel like I am letting people down by staying and that I should leave because of how I feel we can't get along. But the good news is Jackie's behavior is getting BETTER, so I don't know that I can leave without harboring a LOT of guilt...ANd I can't kick Jack out or I feel Jackie would still need a group home. I don't know what to do or where to turn. What a terrible place to be in eh?

Thanks for the kind words and support Kristen, & MaryEvelyn, you both are awesome friends and I am grateful for your friendship. :)

[Mother's Heart]

(((Pam)))
you may feel you have backed down on the leaving Jack thing...but really what you did was choose to stay with your son. No way is it easier to stay than leave.
(It may be easier to say you'll stay than say you're leaving...but the doing it is harder)

my two cents worth,,,take it or leave it:
Since you aren't in a position to put your foot down by leaving how about if you instead sit down and lay out some boundaries.....make a clear-cut list that specifically declares some changes that have to occur for Jack to remain in the home with you? Basically it will sound like an ultimatum...and it is. But, if you can talk out ahead of time what is acceptable behaviour and what the consequences (your response) will be, then he knows what you expect of him and you both know what you will do if the situation doesn't improve. Then you just have to stick with the results. He can choose to follow the plan or not...the consequences then are a result of his choices...not your ability or inability to endure his bad behaviour at different times. If he doesn't change his actions/words I really think booting him out is a better plan than you leaving the situation and leaving Jackie in it without you.

Jack may or may not agree to try this approach but at least it gives him a chance to realize his ownership of part of the problem...take away his ability to deny that his behaviour has been out of line.

On the issue of Jackie needing Jack to teach him....I don't know if that is really so. What I heard you say is Jackie needs to be encouraged to learn skills, to become more independent in doing them. It seems you need to set some boundaries for yourself in how you will interact with Jackie....and start practicing. I heard what you were saying: that Dad can teach him better now because he doesn't over-help him. But, you can also teach him the things his dad can. It may have a different 'flavor' to it...but you can teach him if you just allow the intense love you have for him and your desire for him to have the best future possible to be translated into patience and persistence and consistency. You can do it Pam. Give yourself enough credit for who you are and both your abilities and your confidence will grow.

okay. well, I don't know if any of that helps....but I just want to encourage you not to crumple...and don't give up. There will be easier times...we definitely live on a roller coaster. Hang in there.

[milivica]

Pam, we've talked lots about this. I know how you feel about this, you know how I feel about wanting you to leave primarily for your safety - but most of all hope you can 'emotionally' be free of what ever keeps you bonded to a relationship with a man that doesn't make you feel cherished. And I'm not talking about putting up an emotional wall around your heart, but rather breaking what ever 'spell' that makes you accept so much less than you deserve from him so often. I do believe there are things inside of us women that can change, that snaps us out of a funk and makes us 'poof' no longer willing or able to take crap...especially from our dh's. What I hope you already know, is I could never be disappointed weather you decide to leave or stay. That decision is far too personal and intricate for anyone to judge. My only disappointment is feeling as though emotionally your dh has all the 'control' yet you have to be the 'nice' and 'fair' one, and I look forward to the day you post that you've snapped and planted your foot in his arse and ain't taking no crap no more from nobody. I still love you the same no matter what you decide, but because your son could seriously injure without meaning to or realizing it, I'd love to hear some plan in place for your safety. I can't believe the impossible decisions you've faced, I'm still and always darn proud of you.

Talk to you soon hon!
Lisa

[Pamster]

SO I have turned around and am thinking that HE should leave instead of me and I should try to keep Jackie. If we cannot stop arguing over stupid things it's going to be him that leaves this time and I will manage with having aids coming out to help us. I called and our coordinator said YES we could qualify for more services IF we go that route but that she hoped we'd try counselling. So We'll see. I just wanted to post about where I am at now. I know you all care very much and I appreciate it so very much. Bless you all for being kind loving people. :)

[milivica]

I think you should have a break from the self imposed 'rules' that weigh on you!

Nothing around the house is YOUR job, especially if your dh says it is.

You have to figure out YOU, not him. Know what I mean? My dh has the greatest heart, however, he is also often the hugest pain in the arse to live with, and honestly it's almost completely due to undiagnosed untreated post traumatic stress disorder, and of course all things with testosterone are annoying fairly often, hee hee.

Different things are important to different people - no wives or marriages are the same but it doesn't mean they aren't cohesive or happy. But at the very bare minimum, I needed my dh to treat us, his family, with at least the same courtesy as we would a stranger. He needs to punch IN, not out, when he comes home from work. Only he needs to punch in emotionally, and try at least as hard here, as he does with co-workers that don't even love him like we do. That was the huge difference between us at home especially with the kids. I think he thought since he worked, he was doing his 'job'.

I'm happy to play suzie-homemaker, it's a fun and new role for me. However, the minute dh thinks something is my 'womanly' job, woah, I turn into a stubborn mule. It took me a long time to discover MY path, not the path others expect of me and I feel I must oblige, some blind set or rules I followed, I wasn't even conscious about it. I'm still big time trying to evolve and discover stuff like that, not sure how the line between me and what others wants and needs got so blurred. Though I'm not capable of doling out advice....I gotta say breaking self imposed rules is generally a good time! Feels scary in one way, feels like your free and flying too though.

[frogmama]

To start {{{{{HUGS}}}}} and now the lecture - Maybe it's time to expore "alternative" living arangments - how far does you Mom live from you? What would happen if you moved to your mother's house but came back during the day to care for Jackie and left as soon as Jack came home? Or switch off - you each get a week in the house (I know people that actually do this so the kids don't get uprooted!)?

I really feel that if Jack was going to "teach" him anything about being a man he would have already done so, all he's taught him so far is that it's ok to push Mom around. Putting Jack out may be the first step in teaching Jackie that Mom isn't going to be pushed, mentally or physically anymore. If he needs someone to teach him to wipe his *** (something my grown husband & son can't always seem to do, it's a guy thing:rolleyes:) there are aides and therapists who can do this.

There is no perfect answer for you (unless Jack magically beomes a real man overnight) the end of a marriage is never a perfect outcome. However, I don't think this is something the two of you can work out on your own, there are too many years of habit and anger. I think you would both benefit from a counselor or therapist, some NEUTRAL third-party than can help you separate the actual from the anger, from the fight or flight that happens unconsiously. Jack will never change on his own, you are the only person who's behavior you can control. So MAKE YOUR OWN CHANGE!!

You only know me as a name on a board (so feel free to tell me to shut-up), but Jackie will NEVER learn to respect you as long as you allow Jack to disrespect you. Sons model the behavior of their fathers, it's just hardwired into them (like peeing on trees and liking thing that go boom!) Think of using a crooked cookie cutter, no matter how tasty the dough, the cookie will come out crooked.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I totally agree with frogmama here.

I wrote a big note yesterday but then the forum had a hic-cup and it got lost... I don't have the time to retype it all now, but I've had you on my mind ever since, so I need to write quickly...please forgive this if it's a bit rushed sounding...

Ok, so my first idea was that possibly you could take a period of time each week and go to your moms...I like frogmama's idea a lot, but I was thinking more like the whole weekend away, then weekdays back at the house...not so much as a change in living arrangements, but more like a time for just YOU...so that you can think and rest and sort through some of the feelings & realities. Bottom line is, there are likely a dozen of so options...I'd have a chat with your mom about it...I bet she'd be able to come up with more...

As for Jack & Jackie...

I don't want to make any assumptions here, but the fact is that I barely know you or Jack...I do however have some gut feelings and some impressions. Of course they could be completely wrong, so like frogmama said, do feel free to disregard this...

I get the impression that your marraige has been neglected more than Jack is an abuser. I get the impression that there is something that you both want back...something that has gotten lost in the shuffle and chaos and guilt and frustration???

And I totally agree that Jackie is picking up on things. I also get the impression that Jackie is expressing his own frustrations...much the way I assume Jack is...like was said above, he's modeling his dad...and who knows perhaps even his mom. How are you handling your frustrations and fears?

If this is far from reality, then my next comments will likely be absurd.

Men are just big toddlers...they aren't very good at expressing their frustrations or emotions - period. This doesn't give them the right to push us around or to steamroll over our feelings, but it happens.

The question that I see here, is whether Jack is willing to make a commitment to step up. Can he work through this and be stronger than the forces pulling you apart or not? That's really what we all need to deal with, but those forces are much stronger in our families...

And really, he needs to understand that when he's a pouty baby about all that isn't...he still needs to be a good father. I've gotten the impression that he is more like a sitter than a parent...like he's given up. I have to wonder how much Jackie 'sees' that...and how much that hurts him...

Getting overwhelmed & shuttingdown is something I can't really blame him for. I know it's hard, but this is his hand, he's either got to play it, or fold...those are really the only 2 options. He either wants to be a good father & a good husband or not. He's either willing to do what it takes or not. There is really no room for gray.

I'd like to see both of you get some peace away from the chaos, somehow without scaring Jackie (not a living change, let's call it a vacation or something), so that you can both reflect on and re-evaluate your family structure and life. I'd like to see you both have some time, some nice time together too... What do you want your relationship to be, can it be like that? What was it like before Jackie?

And I absolutely agree, a councelor is also necessary...but I'd like to be a little more specific...I think you need a family councelor, not a marriage councelor, and one that specializes in families with SNs. Like I said above, my impression is that this all has more to do with those 'forces' and not much about you 2...of course we all handle things differently, but my take is that you are both just trying to survive the battles each day...

It's likely taken years to get to this place that you are in, it's not going to get better over night...

But it needs to start with the 2 of you before it spreads to your relationship, and then finally to Jackie.

I hope this helps some...I really do care a lot for you and your family, and will be praying hard for peace, love and happiness in this coming year for you all...whatever shape that may take!

[[[[HUGS]]]]

[Pamster]

I'm afraid we're gonna have to take whatever we can get counselling wise. I don't think that they have any family counselors at the mental health clinic we can go to here (pretty much the only one in the county) so we'll have to make due with the one we're assigned. IF They even agree to see us together. They just might not be able to, they are so overburdened it's not funny. So we'll see. I hope things continue to get better, Jack is making big efforts to make us happy and I am glad because it's been a rough vacation for us all. THis week Jackie only had three days of school and it was nice, he did really well. :D

I don't know about taking time off, but I think we'll be looking into respite help. Jackie's little friend from the neighborhood got suspended off the bus for hitting another kid and just three days ago he hit his sister and came over crying because she'd locked him out so he needed to call his mom. It's sad but he might not be a good person for Jackie to be around if he can't deal with his own anger better, what if Jackie makes him mad and he hits my son? OMG Jackie would probably hit him back and knock him on hit butt because he's tiny compared to JAckie. I just hate that as you get to know some kids they show bad traits, sometimes intolerable traits like this boy's tendency toward violence. *Sigh*

Thanks everyone for the support, I needed it and feel that things will get better soon. We're going to see how it goes and try this counselling that they MIGHT be able to offer to us. I hope it helps. :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Hey Pam...

It would be such a shame if Jackie lost his little friend...seems like having that is helping him a lot.

Is there any way that you could have playdates at your house so that you may be able to impress some more mature ways to manage anger & frustration on him???

It was good that he came to your house when he needed help instead of doing something like break a window or whatever to get back in...

[Pamster]

Yeah it will be a shame, but he needs to be grounded for awhile so he can figure out how to deal with his anger. Hitting is wrong. Jackie last night was really bad. I was in the bathroom trying to go, and he shoved my chair up onto my lap repeatedly and then he started throwing his weight against the door to the bathroom against the wall. I knew it was going to pop through and I told him with a raised voice to stop but he laughed and didn't care, I told him again to stop and he didn't the next time it popped through the door dinger protector thingie and THROUGH the wall...

I hate that this child refuses to listen to me, it's going to be the end of this family. I definitely do not feel I can watch Jackie while Jack is at a job and it kills me but I think that we're going to have to go our separate ways soon. It really hurts so bad, the behavior people tell me that we can get that parental control back but I don't see it happening...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

You can do it Pam! Trust me it's possible!

Have you read the parenting class thread? I need to update it for the Chip system, but I think the stuff up to that point has helped a TREMENDOUS amount! I know how lame it sounds, but point blank it's about perspective and approach...I don't want it to sound as though it's all perfect here now, but we are turning around and each day we get closer & closer...there is more to build off of...and really it started with us, not Coley. And strangly not with us being more firm or more strict, but the opposite almost, not leinent, but just more relaxed and complementary.

Edited to add...it's a respect thing I think, the more we respect him, the more he respects himself and in turn us.

I would seriously look into a program like this in your area...it's covered under mental health because of his defiance behavior, so we just pay a copay at each class.

[milivica]

Not to be negative, but an effective parenting class for 'autism' does not exist, let alone a parenting class for a parent who's autistic child is overpowering and injuring them. If there were such a class, every parent in there would potentially have their child removed from their home because they are assaulting others and returned only after drugged, if at all. The worries and pressures I had when Vince was physically small, versus taller and stronger than me, are two completely different worlds. Had it not been for RDI, I have no doubt Vince would not be living with us now, there was just no way for me to physically do it, and my ability to emotionally do it had long since expired and I was running on some emotional black hole in my soul.

Pam, I read everything you post, you are not only one of my best friends but one of the kindest people I've ever met. You are in a no win situation, I know, I really do. You cannot make all the pieces fit (right now) for your relationship with your son and husband simultaneously, because you're not on solid ground yourself doing this heartbreaking balancing act I've seen you doing for years....if you were 'the camel' you'd be in the Guiness book of world records for the most straws before breaking. I love you, I admire you, I have no solutions for you at all other than to say right now you have some control over the future. Once Jackie harms you beyond repair, or once Jack goes off the deep end, or once YOU go off the deep end from all the pressure, the future will not be your choice so much.

Of all the things you've been advised here, the comment I liked most was by Kathy:

<snip>You have to do something before you are hurt badly or worse! <snip>

I am sorry I was so blunt. I just don't want you to get worse the next time. All the ladies made sense, you all are in the trenches, I have been there, not with my child but with other parents children.

Take care, and please chose something and stick to your guns,
Kathy

The longer you don't choose something, the fewer choices you'll have, the fewer choices Jackie will have....just think how few choices you have now, imagine it being even fewer? I don't want to see you in that position, and know your choices are all gut wrenching. I hope you can find other parents to consult who were once in your position, so you can benefit from their hind site. I will tell you that just as we started RDI (which despite hoping beyond hope I assumed would be another dead end!) I had looked up and visited the only residential place I could imagine sticking Vincent in http://www.orp.com/ . Oh yeah, we went there, took home all their literature and the dvd, got him on 'the list' for some kind of weekend program there cause I figured that would help emotionally prepare him to live there someday. It was so heartbreaking, I had to sort of put myself on auto pilot and totally detach, the kids there seemed happy enough - but of course none of them had their mommy and daddy there was all I kept thinking. I will say that on the weekends, it was like a ghost town, cause they'd go home with their loving families. No matter how horrible to realize, I knew I had to do 'something', before 'something' happened, something that could never be repaired...and then I'd have NO voice in his future.

You are sort of just taking more and more, had you met someone who lives the life your living now just 5, 10 years ago, you'd have said, "No way could I take that" and I think that would apply to most everyone here. But I do see that what you bear day in and day out is beyond human limits, and I know the bipolar makes it he!! x 2.

You don't have to take any actions and make any decisions - but by not taking any actions you are still deciding to let your future and your son's future make itself. So I encourage you, knowing how painful and gutting in has to be, to take an active role in actively making some decisions while YOU still can, before something happens so drastic that it is out of your hands. Once out of your hands, you still have made the decision to let it get that far. See? Kathy said it best, "Take care, and please chose something and stick to your guns" If you choose to not decide on some changes to make, I'll still love you the same...I say all I just did cause I just don't want to see you posting 'I wish I would have....' and it just tears me up. If your choice remains to let the future steer itself, I'll still love you and support you, I just don't want to see you with the "If only I would have" regret. Please know that no way no way am I thinking or saying that the behavior you get from Jackie is your fault or choice, but what you do about it is...and as crappy as all the options are at least you still have some choice at this point.

Get yourself on solid ground, medically, physically, emotionally. From there, your ability to help Jackie will be so much more filled with choices - including support you do not currently have.

Lisa

[LauraP]

Pam--I've been swamped lately and not able to post, but I wanted to say that you have some real advocates here, and some fantastic advice to follow. And the love and goodwill of a really amazing group of moms (and dads too, I imagine). You're at a tough place trying to make difficult decisions--stuff nobody else ever seems to have to prepare for, and I hate it that we have had these battles. I do believe that we autism parents are incredibly strong, but it doesn't make the choices any easier. I think (from what I have read so far) that you are making the choice that is best for all involved, under tough circumstances. And remember that things can change down the road and make other choices available too--life promises us nothing except change.

I'm thinking of and rooting for you, Jack and Jackie.

Laura

[Pamster]

Thank you Kristen, I wish I could get into a parenting class but I don't think any around here can help. But there is an autism support group so I am thinking of trying to take Jackie and go to it. I'll keep everyone posted on how it goes. I wish I could snap my fingers and find a decent group home and be positive that that was what we needed to do, but I can't. It's just so difficult to imagine not having him in my daily world anymore. :(

Thank you Lisa, You know I love you too. You are one special lady and one of my best friends too. And I'm not just saying that. I am working on myself despite the bad situation. I don't know what to do though, part of me says group home and the other part says they won't be able to place him and that if we try it's going to be awful for him. I wish there was an easy fix, but my therapist said that that is why they call it the hard stuff, because it's always hard and once you get through it things can start to get better. It's too bad I don't know how to get through it though. :p

Thanks Laura, I know there is a lot of love in this forum, I feel so priveledged to be part of it and having called this forum home for OMG, it really HAS been ten years! Wow! Thank you for caring Laura. I guess I will have to come to a decision soon. Jackie isn't really getting any more managable and I am not getting any younger. Thank you both for posting. :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili, I'm sorry, I don't want to argue here, and I certainly don't want to distract from the real discussion, but I just wanted to make sure that you don't think that I'm under some warped perception that this is all about bad parenting...that is the sense I got from your note.

You, I think, know me better than that...I absolutely DO NOT think that bad parenting has gotten Pam (or any of us) to this spot, BUT, just like RDI, approach can make a world of difference...in fact I've been hoping that you read that thread too, because I've been so curious about your opinion, much of the perspective reminds me of things you've said about RDI. It's more about positive's and love than anything else.

I read something in my book last night that really resonated with me, and particularly so while thinking about this very difficult situation that Pam is dealing with:

"...the children who need the most love will always ask for it in the most unloving ways."

And as I processed this quote, of course agreeing at face value...oh yeah our kids need so much extra, and certainly they give us more grief...that's an easy assessment...but then it occured to me, the statement is MUCH more than that...

When Coley is at his worst, that's his way of saying he needs not just attention but affection, bonding, connection...when it happens, it's a switch...he's so rough with me, but when I keep my frustration in check, over things that in the end really aren't that important, and just BE WITH him in the moment...that's when we have progress.

So he's almost 6 and can't/won't tie his shoe. So he's almost 6 and still wearing pull-ups at night. So he's almost 6 with almost NO desire to stop that. So he's almost 6 and I still need to wipe his butt sometimes.... on & on ... When I just let all that pressure go away, and focus on the important stuff... the RELATIONSHIP... that's when calm and focus come to him.

And this is the message that is really emphasized in the class..with the added benefit that it's a stress reducer for us parents too...something we could all use! Who said it, Covey? Don't sweat the small stuff? Seriously, don't. Dr. G tells us to do "special time" whenever behavior 'dips'..."special time" is not just 'quality time'... it's a time to just be in the moment, and see the good about who your child is... it's a perspective changer for us, and a self-esteem booster for the kids...overall it's an attitude adjuster for everyone!

Anyhoo...Pam, talk to your psych, we were referred to our class, it's a prescription of sorts. It wasn't something I found doing research. Coley's psych referred us over after our discussion about defiance and noncompliance. Some of our classmates are dealing with similar behaviors, and yes WORSE than yours...I know we've got it relatively easy in that Coley's noncompliant MO is a more gentle approach..."master negotiator" and expert active ignorer...I get that...but in the end it's all about the same thing...regardless of how the child 'expresses' it.

Dr. G reminds us contantly, that our children are not 'typical' so 'typical' parenting doesn't work...his famous quote...most kids need a 5ml dose, our kids need 100ml.

Now, just to be clear, I absolutely don't mean it to sound like this is a cure all, it's not. And in no way do I mean that this will 'cure' autism...I just mean to say it could give you the edge or the 'tool' to start getting to a better place with respect, compliance and frustration....I know you don't want to place him, so maybe this could help some...

Course I don't know you as well as Mili, and certainly I'm not the one living in fear, so it's easy for me to say...I'm absolutely NOT trying to say I know best, only you do...I'm just throwing out an idea for you to consider...

This has been going on for so long, I just don't understand where his Docs are in all of this?! Weren't we waiting on his doc to do an impatient Rx assesment at one point? Why is this all on you, where is the support in this?

Pam, I really think you need to start getting demanding here! I mean really DEMANDing...not just asking, get these people to ACT! What if his aggressive behavior is a side effect of his current med???? How the heck could you ever manage a change? Whether that be to another med or another dose?

I'm sure there are lots of programs near you, why aren't these people getting you/Jackie into them? If they don't know, make them look into what types of things are available!!!!

Be safe Pam! And be strong! I have your whole family in my prayers!

[milivica]

Mili, I'm sorry, I don't want to argue here, and I certainly don't want to distract from the real discussion, but I just wanted to make sure that you don't think that I'm under some warped perception that this is all about bad parenting...that is the sense I got from your note.

No, I know you're perception isn't warped like that...I mean you're warped all right but certainly no more than I am :D

Pam, joining an autism support group would be an 'active decision' on your part, one that might lead to more options than you now have. Nice! Just because in my lowest times with Vince, I looked into residential, doesn't mean I think you should (you probably know that), but I hope to see you more...empowered might be the word I'm looking for. And I don't see that happening without you actively making changes - not that I have any bright ideas or I'd suggest them. Maybe an autism group in your area would be a great launching pad for more ideas and paths to solutions for you. But the statement I made about wanting to see you on more physically and emotionally solid ground, that has to become a priority for you I think. An autism group might just be the start of accomplishing that. I know what a smart lady you are, you are frustrating in how much you underestimate yourself when I and everyone can see your resilience, intelligence combined with your loving nature. The last several years have bashed your confidence it seems...boy do I understand that. So again like Kathy said, make some decisions then stick to your guns. Joining a local support group sounds like a great start - best case scenario you get gobs of ideas and support, worst case scenario it's lame and you gain nothing but lose nothing.

Lisa

[peglem]

This is my first time chiming in because, well, it seemed like everyone else was giving you what you needed.

My only point is, I just don't see how Jackie's attitude and treatment of you are going to change as long as he is around dad's constant disrespect and mistreatment of you. Does Jack not see that he is teaching his son with his actions?

I don't have a solution for you...so wish I did. But I think Jack's treatment of you is toxic to the whole family. I don't think you and Jackie can really get better until you stop being exposed to the poison. Best case scenario- Jack changes and learns to value and cherish you. But one way or another I don't see how things can get better when you're living in a toxic environment.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I SOOOOOOOOOOOO agree with Pegs!

The one thing, though, that has me nervous about the 'obvious' solution to that problem...if you remove Jack from the house, how will Jackie respond? And how will you manage that??????

This idea scares the bajesus out of me!!!!!:eek:

Kids mirror their parents, plus they act impulsively...

My gut, is that Jack is teaching Jackie not to respect you with his behavior...
btw, is Jack mad at you for something? I mean does he resent you for something???? Or is he punishing himself by pushing you away????
and Jackie doesn't like this 'dynamic' and is lashing out at you for not standing up for yourself, or demanding that he respect you.

Course what the heck do I know...that's just the way it comes across to me from what I read...

[Pamster]

Yes, he's angry I took Jackie away from him for a year back in 1998. I was so upset because things got ugly between us. Lisa knows about it, I talked with her about it, and you're probably right, it's because of that he has this underlying resentment toward me. And maybe that is what Jackie is mad at, because he wants me to stand up for myself who knows? It could very well be though, I don't know. I do know that if he left I wouldn't be in a good position. I don't think I could do it alone. But for now we're seriously looking into marriage counselling so that we can change how we talk to each other. I hope it helps. Because if it doesn't one of us is going to have to leave and it will probably be him. :(

I can't tell you what it means to me to have your support, I know I am alone in this life ultimately, and I have to make the choices and live with them, but that doesn't make it any easier you know? I mean I could leave, but I don't think I could live with the consequences of that just yet. I do think he's gonna need a group home and I am so afraid things will be bad for him later in life, but I don't want to let go yet...And he's not being so aggressive right now, he's hyper but not so aggressive that I can't handle it.

I don't know, I found out we could get more helpers out here if Jack leaves, so I would defniitely try it on my own and if it didn't work then I would seek placement, but counselling will come first. Maybe we can really come to terms with our problems in a theraputic setting. I can live in hope anyway. :)

[Aspigander]

I've been watching this thread, but haven't really chimed in yet as I don't have a whole lot of advice. But as I'm reading about difficulties between you and Jack, I'm thinking that Jackie may be very sensitive to that.

I can be very reactive, and went through a few physically violent years. To the point where my parents have threatened to call the cops. Fortunately we wound up finding a counselor who was able to help me not get to the violent stage before that happened, but there have been some very unsavory episodes. And while my parents aren't physically violent with each other (at least never were around me), I have seen them, my dad in particular, being very reactive. Small inconveniences happen, and you might find yourself treated to a few F bombs courtesy of my dad.

He's a nice guy, but he sure can react to stuff. I think that might have led to me being reactive as well. May be exacerbated by me having AS, but I think in general I kind of learned what I lived. I saw reactive, so I became reactive. Know what I mean?

I kind of feel like I'm rambling, since I don't really have any advice. Other than it would be good Jackie if he didn't have to see the unrest between Mom and Dad. He may be acting out what he sees.

Just out of curiosity, when Jackie becomes an adult, what is the extent of his independence expected to be? Will he likely need a group home when you're gone (whether he does before then or not)? Is he likely to be able to live at least fairly independently? I would suggest you try to figure out, if you don't know already, to what extent his independence can be as an adult, and try to make whatever decisions need to be made that will help facilitate him reaching whatever he is capable of (I hope that made sense). You also need to make sure that you are okay in the process.

Cute turtle in your sig, by the way. :)

[Pamster]

Thanks for posting Aspigander, I think he is reacting to us being reactive to one another and that is what I hope counseling can help us with. So we can avoid triggering arguments and can just TALK To one another. I may be dreaming too. Thank you for your comments. We've had people (like in authority)tell us we should call the police on our son and Baker act him but we just don't want to do that. I can't imagine doing it.

I don't think Jackie will be able to live on his own ever, I think it's group homes for him after he leaves our care. He just can't do life skills on his own and coordinate living on his own. Even with aids and life coaches I can't see it working. He's not even close to being able to articulate himself on the level you can Aspigander. He barely spells his name and doesn't have any interest in writing beyond the alphabet.

Thanks for the comment on our pet turtle, the turtle puts up with a lot from Jackie unfortunately. I love our little turtlini. :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Pam, I know this is a HUGE tangent to this topic, but this is the first time I've gotten a good sense of Jackie's skills and it's funny how differently I 'pictured' them...your descriptions tell me that he is MUCH more, what's the word...capable (and I don't want that to sound offensive, I just can't pull out a better word without more coffee in the system)...do you get the sense from him that he can do better but isn't, let's say, motivated? UGH, that's not really how I wanted to ask the question...I mean, your previous descriptions & stories give me the impression that he is intellectually more advanced than he is demonstrating...am I in fantasy land or did I get an acurate impression?

Have you guys looked into RDI at all?

[Aspigander]

Ah, okay. I wondered, because sometimes, like Kristen, I get the idea that Jackie might be at least somewhat more intellectual than he may be appearing. Remember when you described his response to the gun salute at the funeral? I think, if I recall correctly, he said "uh-oh" when the guns were pointed. Now, I'd probably be thinking the same thing, and it wouldn't surprise me if some NT's might think that too, but if you think about it, there's kind of an unconscious thought process you would have to get to to get the end thought, the one that you think consciously, that he voiced...being "uh-oh".

1. Guns hurt and/or kill people (what he knows about the danger of guns, of course, I don't know...but I'm guessing he knows that guns can at least hurt people).
2. Guns are getting pointed at us.
3. These guns could hurt or kill us.
4. (and this is the conscious thought, in which Jackie voiced, after the above three more subconscious thoughts) Uh-oh.

See what I mean? I do get a sense that he is presenting on a lower level, such as him barely being able to spell his name, but then, like with the gun/funeral incident, I get the idea that he's not...how do I put this politely? I get the idea that he's not totally out of it intellectually.

Of course, we only get glimpses on a forum, and you get to see him in action 24/7. That's kind of why I wondered what you expect for his adulthood functionality.

Sometimes it is easy to take for granted that I can at least put a voice to what my thoughts, wants, and needs are. Here's an example:

I have a dog living at my parents' house, as she can't be with me at my apartment. She basically became mine by the fact that had I not intervened to see she had a chance as a young pup, she'd have been down. We got her though the first crisis, but in November she got a kidney infection, probably in the kidney that always has been large. We got her though that and I really needed to go back to my apartment. I have, of course, come to see her a few times.

Well yesterday (Monday morning) my dad scooped her up and took her to the vet. Her kidney had re-offended. He works the afternoon shift, and he works pretty close to my apartment. So on his lunch breat just after 9pm, he came, got me and my cats, and we headed over to my parents' house.

Well I realized today I forgot a couple of things. Eye drops for me to keep the pressure under control (not what I want to be without), and something to put on Romeo's food because he tends to have flare ups of cystitis (bladder inflammation)...again, not something to be without.

I realized that, and was able to let my dad know. I asked him to run me back to my apartment on his way to work, and get me again on his lunch break. Little did I know my mom had something to do on my end of town, so she just wound up picking me back up (I was actually home less than an hour...had I known she was going out that way I probably wouldn't have enlisted my dad). Anyway, I called my dad to let him know that my mom had me (of course she'd already called him, but at least he really knew since both of us told him).

I have to say that I'm glad I'm able to articulate stuff like that. I not only realized I didn't have something I needed, but was able to let somebody know so I could get back to my apartment and get what it was that I needed.

It sounds like, had Jackie been in a similar situation I was in, he never would have been able to articulate that some important items had been forgotten and he needed to be taken back so he could get them. Which, of course, you kind of need to do, especially when you have a disability, if you're going to live in an independent setting.

I hope you don't find this question intrusive, but I am wondering. I get that, in a similar situation to what I described, he would not have been able to put a voice to his needs. Do you think he is able to realize his wants/needs, and can't communicate them? Or would he never even be able to clue in (for lack of a better term) that there was a problem (as in my example, something that was forgotten and needed to be retrieved)?

I hope what I just asked isn't too intrusive and as Kristen prefaced her post, it is a huge tangent, but I do tend to wonder. I guess what I'm wondering mainly is if Jackie might have the intellect, but a huge communication deficit. I know for me, until I developed the vocabulary (of course, aspies are known for having a pretty advanced vocabulary and being a little more advanced with verbal communication, whereas folks with other ASD's would have a verbal communication deficit), it would be quite frustrating because I know what I want or need, but until I learned the words to use, it could be hard to make sure everybody else "got it". Know what I mean? Still can be...in fact I think I'm much better as a written communicator than as a verbal communicator, because while the words are the same either way, I am very word oriented whereas NT's are very non-verbal communication oriented. Therefore I'm probably sending off signals while speaking that NT's take a certain way, which may be totally different than what my words are saying (and therefore what I am meaning). Of course sometimes (whether I'm speaking or writing), I think I tend to OVERarticulate, and overexplain.

[Pamster]

I think he is somewhat intellectual, but not enough that he would remember he had a pot on the stove and not burn the house down you know? He's smart but he's not got common sense. I would love it if he could live alone on his own but i don't see that as an option. Am I wrong to think that he isn't capable of it because of the above reasons? I might be projecting my underexpectations on him of his abilities because I have fear about what he'd be like on his own. He did go "Uh oh" & "Here they come" at the funeral and that certainly does indicate he has some functionality that is above a severely autistic individual, but like I said I just can't see him doing all the things he'd need to on his own, MAYBE with a LOT of help, like an aid there all the time, but I can't see the state paying for that for him and I don't think I'll make THAT much when my memoir sells....

I am not at all put off by anything you posted or asked Aspigander, I am really grateful for your take on all this, thank you for caring about us. :) You too Kristen! :) I don't think he's able to articulate his needs just yet, that is stuff we're working on with the behavior analyst and his behavior assistant. I really hope things work out for him that he's able to get his head around reading soon, I think the world could really open up for him if only he'd apply himself a little. But because it's work to do he seems to be turned off doing it. :p

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Pam, this might sound terrible, but it's one of those kinda questions...do you think some of his frustrations & outbursts may be in response to your...ugh...low expectations...of him?

I know you are WAY frustrated, and DO a TON! So I don't mean it to sound as though you haven't been working your arse off...

What if you get him more involved...tell him you'd like more one on one time with him (or whatever you call it), ask him if he'd help with dinner so that you can have some hang out time together, or help with the laundry, whatever...and don't worry if he sits there & does nothing...but if you hand him things without a word, like the spoon to stir, while you do the next step...or the cup of detergent while you set the machine, whatever...and just keep 'hanging-out' talking or whatever...

Can you see something like this being a positive experience?

If so, I'd do it just so he can observe, at a minimum. If this is all he does, just take the cup of detergent and help him pour, and just keep going without a word about it. Next time, or maybe the time after, he'll pour it...then you can ask him to set the machine, or put the clothes in, or put the detergent into the cup, etc.

I know they are ALL different...but I'll tell you the best 'perspective' I got was from our GI, of all docs...he acknowledges that diet plays a roll, and probably affects his focus/frustration mostly...but feels that much of his behavior is out of boredum and desire for more challenge. And the more we challenge him now, the better he does.

He does get 'bored' with stuff easy, so daily stuff, life skills are a HUGE challenge for us, but I find that the more I 'help' him, the more discouraged and 'depressed' angry resentful he gets...it's a hard balance I know, because the clock ticks on, but the better he feels about his accomplishments...the more he is willing to try. It's not just a self-esteem thing...it's self-efficacy...how he feels about his abilities not so much about himself (but that too). If we don't show him that we have confidence in his skills, he loses motivation quickly!

[Pamster]

I do let him help with things, like laundry, he loves to help with laundry or making garbage runs to the can in the garage. I don't think he's aware of my thoughts that he's not living up to what I think his potential is, he seems oblivious to me when he's writing or focused on stuff. He knows I am there of course but he's just not clingy about it. I wish that he'd show more interest in reading. I think that is the only way his world will open up for him. :)

[RathyKay]

Pam, I haven't been posting much lately, but I wanted you to know you are in my thoughts and prayers. I have no advice, but wish you well.

[Aspigander]

EDIT -- I just saw your response to Kristen...I'm going to let my post stand as it was, with the following addition:

I wonder what would happen if you put a book for him nearby, then saw down with a book of your own to read? Do you think, as long as he isn't already focused on something, he might decide to pick up his book and read as well?

(Following is the post pre-edit)

He's smart but he's not got common sense.

Oh, I can definitely relate to not having common sense. Sometimes I have been known to just miss the obvious.

I think this was September of 06. My mom had been trying to get me to grasp the concept that the stove is NOT an extension to the counter top! I'm not always good at cleaning up after myself, and when all my counters got cluttered I have been known to put stuff on the stove top. Well, one day, I had a crockpot lid (with a plastic handle) on the right rear burner. I was cooking something on the right front burner. Now, keep in mind I'm also not good at staying with the project (thought better now) when I'm cooking. I'd check it and then wander back over to my computer. Anyway, I checked it, and realized the rice had not even begun to cook. Because of my visual impairment, I kind of leaned over so I could see the knobs. I looked at the knob that controls the right front burner, noticed it wasn't on, so turned it on. It didn't dawn on me that since I knew I turned a knob, it must have been the rear burner I'd turned on. So I went back to the computer, and within a minute I heard a strange noise that kind of sounded like an explosion. I went back and there was a fire on the right rear burner (the fire crew determined that the plastic handle melted and ignited). First thing I did was threw a glass of water on it...not the smartest move when dealing with an electric stove. It went out but came right back...like trick candles. Then I got to thinking, I knew sand (a powdery substance) can extinguish a fire, I knew baking soda (powdery substance) could as well, and I knew the stuff in a fire extinquisher is some kind of powder. So...what did I have that was a powdery substance? Oh, that's right, flour! Well I quickly found out that flour burns. I realized I wasn't getting that fire out on my own. I knew I'd have to evacuate and call in the professionals. I grabbed my cats, stuffed them in the carrier, and, well another non-common sense thing is I tried to call my mom (she didn't answer). Then, I called 911 as I was trying to get myself and the cats outside. Luckily it remained contained to the burner and I was back in the apartment within hours.

I didn't realize until later that had that thing ignited just one minute earlier, while I was leaning over, with my head right above the rear burner, I'd have wound up with my head right in the flames.

I am happy to report, I no longer use the stove as a handy counter top extension.

I can certainly understand serious concerns about Jackie being on his own. I'm trying to think (from what little I know of him)...if he were to walk into the kitchen and see a stove fire, I'm picturing that he would probably know there was a problem, but possibly not know what to do about it. Does this sound about right? And that would obviously be a very bad thing.

I don't think you're wrong to doubt his ability to live on his own...heck, sometimes I wonder if I even should be. Having an apartment is a lot to keep up with, and things pile up (mess wise) very quickly. And since I don't have structure, nor am I good at creating it, it's hard to know how to put my time to best use. So...to be honest, sometimes I wonder if even I *should* be on my own as much as I am.

I like Kristen's idea...trying to involve him might help you get an idea of what he might be capable of. Do you think you could make it seem like a game, rather than like work? Here's an idea that I thought of as I was typing this. You're into writing, correct? Maybe you could ask him to help you with your writing...even if that "help" is just watching. Maybe you could give him some paper and a pencil, and, without pressuring him to actually do something with his paper/pencil, go about your business with your own writing (or do you type it on a computer?). It might be interesting to see if he decides to pick up his own pencil and do something.

Obviously, it doesn't just have be that...it can be as Kristen suggested, cooking or laundry. It might be really interesting to see what Jackie might do if you got him involved, but didn't try to apply too much pressure. You know...give him the tools to do stuff, (i.e. paper/pencil, spoon, etc.), but not explicitly try to get him to do anything with it. Know what I mean?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Pam, have you seen the leapster TAG?

http://www.leapfrog.com/en/shop/tag_library.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=ppc&utm_term=leapster+tag&utm_campaign=NonBrand&utm_content=Tag_Core%20Brand_Exact

We got one for Coley for Christmas...I think it's the most incredible thing EVER! He loves it too!

I didn't get a chance to read the replies thoroughly & need to fly, I'll be back...

Also, you didn't answer my question about RDI.

[Pamster]

Jackie would rip those up unfortunately. Yeah we're aware of RDI but can't get funding for it and though I have the books we don't actively use them. :) We did for awhile and I think it helped, but I didn't want to do damage to him so we stopped. :)

[Aspigander]

You know, Pam, something just popped into my head. I'm not sure what made me think of it but something just came to mind suddenly about 2 minutes ago (though it will be much more than two minutes by the time I'm done with this post LOL).

I wonder if part of the respect (or lack thereof) on Jack and Jackie's parts is, sometimes I get the idea that you might make a definite, clear, make-no-bones-about-it statement, and then later tend to waiver a little. I went back to your first post on this thread, and your very first sentence is as follows:

I am leaving Jack this time.

Later in the thread you said that you told Jackie that you would soon be moving in with his grandmother. Later in the thread...I got the sense that you weren't so sure. Another example: When I first came to the forum, you were gone to the funeral but when I realized that I recognized your name and Jackie's name from several years back, I hunted down your threads to see how you were doing. I saw a thread where you said, and I'm paraphrasing: "It's not a drill this time. Jackie will be in a group home within a month." I do know that at least part of why he's not placed is because of issues with the state. And I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't leave Jack, and I'm not saying you should or should not place Jackie sooner than later, or at all, or anything.

What I'm saying is this: If you're making definitive, there's-no-changing-my-mind statements to Jack and Jackie like I've seen here, before you're absolutely sure there *is* no changing your mind, and then it changes...well, then you're kind of sending mixed signals.

I know with me, and I suspect this has to do with being on the spectrum and therefore wonder if the same holds true for Jackie, I am big for forming what I call a "mental blueprint". I get an idea in my mind of what is going to happen. This drives my mom nuts.

Let's say my mom tells me, in a definitive manner, "I am going to the pet supply store tomorrow, and I will pick up kitty litter and then drop it off at your apartment." Let's even say that she plans to be dropping it off at around 5:30pm.

I get what I call my "mental blueprint" formed...tomorrow at 5:30pm, my mom will be bringing kitty litter to my apartment. Well, then something happens. Either she finishes earlier than expected and gets to my place at 4pm...or things take longer than expected and she doesn't get to my place until 7pm. Or something comes up and she never makes it to even pick up the litter to deliver to me on the day she expected to. This all disrupts the way I thought it would be.

I know you said when you told Jackie about your impending move, you think he understood but it may not mean anything until it happens. I wonder if it might mean more to him then you may realize. I wonder if he has a similar blueprint that says: "Mom will be moving and not living here anymore." If he understood that, what I'm wondering is if he has filed that for reference.

I'm again not saying what you should or shouldn't do in regards anything you said you're going to do, as I know you may think you're dead set on something and then think things through a little more and decide on something else. But if he thinks Mom is going to go away, and then Mom doesn't go away, if he is like me in regards to forming mental blueprints, it might tend to throw him off kilter. I know when things change and happen outside of my blueprint, it throws me off kilter.

Does this sound like it may be about right? That some of the issues you have with Jackie might be giving him information for a blueprint, and then changing things, doing things outside of his blueprint, and perhaps throwing him off kilter? I don't know exactly what's going on in his mind (and I'm sure you don't either, as I know my mom has no clue what goes on in my mind), but if he's anything like me in the mental blueprint department (I know he has much more problem than I have in the communication department, but I really wonder how he is with the actual thinking department), then acting outside of his blueprint (if he has one) may have him feeling frazzled.

Again, I know that sometimes you think things and then change your mind, just as my mom does, and that can't always be avoided. So I hope you know I'm not trying to throw you under the bus. :) I'm just wondering if that might be part of issues you may have with Jackie.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, on the reading and life skills and behavior stuff...

My thoughts weren't so much about improving his skills at this point as much as I thought that interacting and spending time with him, sharing things that are important to you, with him, may help his behavior, help bonding & connecting, respect and trust, all of that...

If at the same time you can demonstrate something...like the importance of reading or being able to think ahead to prepare a meal or whatever...great. The rest will eventually fall into place, but you gotta start somewhere...

So in that respect, I really like Aspiganders ideas about the writing!! Jackie must know how important that is to you...imagine how special he would feel if you shared such an important thing with him!!!!!!!!!

Another thing you could do is read the directions for things as you are doing them...although I'm sure you know how to cook and how to do laundry, if you show Jackie how being able to read helps you figure things out, stuff you don't necessarily know, that may help him muster the motivation.

You could even 'pretend' like you don't know some words and struggle sounding them out, or even ask him for help...("Oh, I forget, what sound does a 'c' make?" for example) like with recipes or the laundry detergent box, etc.

Not necessarily to get him DOING part, but to just spend nice time with you (without his aggressive behaviors turning them negative) and to see how important some of these skills are.

Dr. G reminds us each class..."if telling kids is all it took, our kids would be perfect at getting through the day" For whatever reason our kids need more VISUAL cues...demonstration...it's really important to demonstrate the things we need them to do...and if that means kinda narrating them too, for more processing impact...whatever it takes!

It's not just our kids though...that's where the saying "do as I say, not as I do" comes from...but for our kids this message doesn't work at all...so we need to change our bad habits so that there is absolutely no conflict between what we say & what we do...then it's a clear "Do as I do" message. In other words, lead by example.

This is true with everything not just getting through the day...I think Aspigander said it well in her last post...sending a "think before you act/speak" message is HARD! But this is clearly one thing that Jackie could use some help with...so rather than punish or whatever when he doesn't...you could demonstrate HOW TO DO...

Now before I go any further...we are working REALLY hard over here just recognizing how our 'mixed messages' have made things tough for Coley, and we are STRUGGLING to break bad habits! This is hard...but once you look at it from this perspective...well, you can see where having such a rigid mind set could prevent certain lessons from being 'processed'...and you'll see more... and trust me we've got a good list!

As for the TAG (or any other thing that may help develop his skills), what if you sat with him and used it? Then put it away after...like had a 'reading time' with him???

Pam, Pam, Pam....

I have the books we don't actively use them. :) We did for awhile and I think it helped, but I didn't want to do damage to him so we stopped. :)

WOMAN! If it was helping how in the world could you think it would do him damage?! You're not going to break him! Seriously, this situation with Jack, and even with Jackie's behavior, without a doubt, has negative ramifications...do you honestly think your attempts at RDI could come anywhere close to that? Those continue, yet the RDI was stopped???

Where is Mili? tsk! tsk! tsk!

Get that book out! And get some postive episodic memories going (for ALL of you!)!!!!!!!!!