Question for NT's: Why is this considered socially inappropriate?

[Aspigander]

I'm kind of wondering what NT's have to say, but if another aspie or someone else on the spectrum has any ideas, I'm all ears. :)

Anyway, sometimes I say or do things that are not considered socially acceptable. Often, once it is explained to me why what I said/did was inappropriate, I can wrap my mind around it. But there's one thing that happened over the summer that my brain just isn't grasping, and I'm hoping someone here can explain it because it's driving me nuts!!

Anyway, my parents have a boat in a marina while it is summer. I went with my dad one weekend. Anyway, there is one boater, we'll call him Steve (actual name changed to protect the innocent). Anyway, while he'd been getting better, Steve had problems getting his boat into his slip without running into the dock, other boats, etc. From what I've heard, there have been issues in the past with him bumping into things.

Anyway, my dad and I were standing on the dock with a few other people. My dad suddenly goes: "Uh-oh! Get all women and children off the dock! Steve(again name changed)'s coming in!" In other words, he was poking a little fun at Steve's docking skills.

My dad (and I) rushed over to his slip so my dad could grab his boat as it was coming in to help keep it from running into something. When the boat was tied into the slip, Steve thanked him, and acknowledged that he sometimes had issues getting that boat docked. And, that's when I opened my big mouth.

"Yeah, my dad just announced your impending arrival by ordering all women and children off the dock!" Just as my dad was, I was trying to be humorous.

Anyway, my dad was unamused. He said that that was insulting. I asked why it was insulting, and he simply said: "Well, think about it." He said "most people" would consider it to be insulting, but when I asked exactly why most consider it insulting, his repeated response was "think about it".

I asked my mom, and she had said it would have been *better*, if I'd have made it my own joke (said "Yeah, maybe when you come in we'll have to get all women and children off the dock" rather than saying that it was something my dad said), though she said even that wouldn't really be the greatest thing to do.

Can somebody explain exactly why this might be considered insulting, or inappropriate?

[The Pogue]

Your father didn't intent for Steve to know he had poked fun at his docking skills. You repeated what was supposed to be a private joke. That's like breaking a confidence.

Life goes on; live and learn.

[peglem]

Off the top of my head...

Your dad did not want to share the joke with "Steve" because he was afraid it would hurt his feelings to know that people were poking fun at him behind his back. So, when you revealed what your dad had said he (your dad) probably felt embarrassed by Steve knowing he had said that.

Kinda like if somebody in a crowd is wearing an ugly hat- NT's may (not me, I'd probably not even notice) whisper to each other about it, but not say it outright to the ugly hat wearer, because they don't want to hurt feelings.

[milivica]

I'm an aspie. I'm guessing when you said that, 'Steve' felt uncomfortable, your dad was able to read Steve's body language though you were not, your dad then also felt uncomfortable. Also, 'Steve' knew, after seeing reading your dad's expression/body langage, that you had said something your dad never thought you would repeat. And all this body language reading happens in split seconds, and happens automatically for them - they cannot not read one another.

It's like Pogue said, there was an UNspoken deal between your dad and everyone that heard his joke, that it would not be repeated in front of 'Steve', and you repeated it.

I have a friend with a daughter with autism, I'm very lucky because when she does not want me to repeat what she says, she flat out tells me, "Now you're not supposed to repeat that" so I didn't. Your dad didn't think to tell you, not your fault, not his either...though I'm tempted to feel your dad should have known you well enough to know he should have warned you not to repeat it. I would have anyhow, and do with my autistic son, he's 12.

If you feel confused, I totally understand. Nt's do not, I repeat do not, learn or memorize all these UNspoken rules...not only are there over a zillion of them, but they change from one situation to seemingly the same next situation, there is always some variable an aspie notices after the blunder we make. Nt's read body language which guides them even more clearly than WORDS! It's such a trip. I finally can read body language (often, but not always) and it doesn't take any effort, it's crazy, it just happens automatically. And it's a new world for me. I can't even explain how much less confusing, how much more fair life is, how much more choice and true freedom I have with the clarity. For me, now 44 and first learning this, it fels like I'm psychic...and reading a persons body language is a bit like reading their thoughts, or at least their feelings. It really is.

The only negative, is you cannot choose to read or not, any more than you can choose to hear words. You just read people weather you want to or not.

Ok so back to your situation...it might have felt something like this to your dad. I'll try to put you in your dad's place by creating a fake situation. If 'Steve' was pulling into the dock, and you said to your dad, "Don't tell Steve, but he really sucks at docking" then when 'Steve' docked your dad said, "Hey, my son just said you sucked at docking and I wasn't supposed to tell you" then 'Steve' looked at you and said, "I feel so humiliated, now I know what you really think about me and how you talk bad about me behind my back".

I hope that comparison made sense.

[Aspigander]

Pogue,
Yep, one thing that happens with NT's and aspies alike is we have to live and learn.

Peglem,
I guess the "hurt feelings" part is where I'm having trouble. Because 'Steve' acknowledged that he has docking issues, it's something he knew he had issues with. Also, since my dad (and often a lot of people do when they see 'Steve' coming in) ran over and grabbed 'Steve''s boat to help guide it into the slip, it was clear that others knew he has problems. Sure, someone will often go help hand a dock line (rope used to tie the boat to the dock) to someone on the boat, but rarely will people on the dock actually grab a boat, unless it's really windy and it's foreseeable that the person might have trouble docking. Pretty much, when someone sees 'Steve' coming in, whether windy or not, at least one person heads over to help guide the boat into the slip. So, I'm guessing, that there are already some unspoken messages going to 'Steve' to let him know that others know he has trouble docking. So, I guess what I tend to struggle with is why 'Steve' would get hurt feelings when one points out a problem that he acknowledged (verbally) that he has, and when he would probably already know (I assume) that others are aware of his difficulties since they rush over to grab his boat. See what I mean?

Milivica,
I think your scenario helped clear things up, and I'll get to that in a minute.

though I'm tempted to feel your dad should have known you well enough to know he should have warned you not to repeat it.

You know, this reminds me of a conversation I had with my mom, once after this specific event, but we've had this conversation several times. My mom has said things before like: "See, this is why we don't like going places with you. We never know what you're going to do." This can refer to repeating things best not repeated, or me going into meltdown, or something else that I do that is socially not exactly the way to go. So, on one hand, it probably would be helpful if my dad (or anyone around me) would let me know if there's something I shouldn't repeat, but on the other hand, that would probably make them feel more burdened (which is probably why they often balk at the idea of being in public with me). When they're talking in conversation, they don't want to have to think "Hmm...let's see...do I have to warn her not to repeat this?" Or, "Is she going to have a meltdown over this?" Know what I mean?

Anyway, I think the hypothetical scenario helps. I'm still not *exactly* sure why 'Steve' might feel humiliated, since, as I said to Peglem he did verbally acknowledge it, and, I'm guessing that the fact that every time he docks his boat someone runs over to grab it might, in one of those unspoken ways, indicate to 'Steve' that everybody else does know he has trouble. But your scenario did make sense in explaining what may have been going on. I'm guessing when you had me tell my dad "don't repeat this" and had my dad tell 'Steve' "I wasn't supposed to repeat this", and then having 'Steve' respond to me, you were trying to give a voice to the unspoken communications that may have been happening, correct?

[milivica]

Right, exactly.

Ya know, when I was your age, I would have never ever understood the example I gave to you. I would have focused on how it was not the same. Also at your age, I had not only an incredibly crushing depression (hard to avoid as an aspie I think!) but a really large resentment of humans...I didn't know anyone else on the autistic spectrum and didn't have internet or terminology like 'nt', but you could say I more or less hated all nt's, thought they were all mean. Thought I was 'right' and the rest of the world was 'wrong'. Ugh. Not fun days feeling like that. I had been put in three different institutions on and off as a child, so believe me I was pretty darn misunderstood.

So far, based on the little I know about you, I think your not only pretty amazing but with nothing but hope for a wonderful future.

I will say, though I do understand your mom's comment about 'this is why we can't bring you anywhere', it really hurts me to hear. It's such a personal attack on you personally, for your neurology...it would be like feeling irritated with someone for having epilepsy. Being as you are living at home, I have to believe your parents love you, but simply don't understand aspergers - which is understandable. I bet they would feel greatly relieved to be able to borrow YOUR PERSPECTIVE and that would be fair to expect, being as the core of aspergers and autism is your difficulty borrowing the perspective of others.

Try hard to separate your neurology from YOU. Actually you might be fascinated to read about mirror neurons. I believe if people with autism/aspergers had properly functioning mirror neurons, they would not have asd (asd=autistic spectrum disorder). So what to do? Get that mirror neuron system working. How? The only way I am aware of is with RDI that I posted about already. I would hope someday soon it can be done with electric stimulation - and no I totally don't mean electric shock or anything crazy or painful, I mean the same way that balance can be restored to a person with damaged vestibular apparatus with electric pulses to the tongue (I just learned about that in a book called The Brain That Changes Itself by Norman Doidge).

Ok, though I've been very good about not making long winded posts lately, I just really feel for your situation, and would love to share anything that might help...so I'm trying to share everything that might help. You sound like a great guy - please don't be creeped out or uncomfortable I'm not hitting on you, I'm way too old plus married. Just love to see people overcome obstacles to happiness.

[Aspigander]

I often focus on how something isn't the same (usually when it's spoken to me, though. I seem to *get* more when I'm reading written words). Sounds like you had quite a fair share of issues growing up.

Some of the things my mom says aren't really all that pleasant to hear. The big bone of contention seems to be that my neurology seems to matter little. The things I do drive her nuts. The fact of the matter is, the things I do drive her nuts. It doesn't matter what the reason is -- she's just driven nuts. Honestly, had the AS been picked up on at a much younger age, and we'd all learned early on how to deal with it, and I'd "grown" with it, it might be better off. But we've been dealing with issues since I was quite young, and obviously we didn't know *how* to appropriately deal with them, because the central reason for these issues was missed, well, by this time my folks are tired of the issues. 25 year olds don't whine (or even get too upset without external indication) when they spill their coffee. Or drop something. 25 year olds know what's appropriate to repeat and what's not. etc. While my mom says she doesn't hold it against me that I am not neurotypical, what else am I supposed to think?

It's kind of like this: It's been known since birth that I had a visual impairment. In fact, after prying my eyes open at birth (because, unlike most, they weren't already open and I wouldn't open them), doctors told my parents I would have light perception at best. I do have more than that, but still they always knew there was some visual impairment. Anyway, let's say I was given something to read that was in just too small print. Generally, things would get enlarged for me. Either the school would or my mom would. No problem. Imagine, if it drove my mom nuts that I couldn't read such tiny print. Let's say that, instead of enlarging things, she said something like: "It drives me nuts that you can't read this small print. I realize you're visually impaired, and am not holding it against you. But the fact of the matter is you can't read this small print, regardless of the reason, and it drives me nuts." Now that would be kind of silly. Maybe I should put it to her like that?

Actually, I *technically* have my own apartment...operative term is technically. My parents breed and show dogs, and from about April-October is dog showing season, so in April I came over here to watch the dogs they wouldn't be traveling with. And since my mom's out of state many weekends training dogs to show, and during the summer my dad's at the boat quite a bit, and another issue that had come up while I was here in April, that's an incredibly long story, I've just kind of been here. Not to mention the fact that even when I'm at my own apartment, that's kind of the extent of my independence...

I'll research the mirror neurons tomorrow. If I'm smart, I'll go to bed. lol

You sound like a great guy

Thanks, but I'm female. :)

[milivica]

I Honestly, had the AS been picked up on at a much younger age, and we'd all learned early on how to deal with it, and I'd "grown" with it, it might be better off.

Eh, maybe, but you might be worse off. There is more misconception about autism the further back you go.

This might be a good analogy for you mom. Imagine, if it drove her nuts that you could only read black print, and books were all printed in varying shades of gray along with the black. Let's say that, instead of reading the gray words for you, she said something like: "It drives me nuts that you can only read black print, I realize you're visually impaired, and am not holding it against you. But the fact of the matter is you can't read this gray print, regardless of the reason, and it drives me nuts."

Like you can see big emotions (black ones) like rage, but maybe not mild irritation. You can see laughter but not contentment. I've heard it said that there are many many shades of gray asd's don't see, and it is true. I could probably find some stuff to explain it to her, but mostly to explain aspergers to you...hope that doesn't sound silly. Just cause you have a certain neurology, doesn't mean you know what it means to YOU. Nt's don't know what it means to be nt unless they study it either. I mean, it's not automatic to consciously understand your neurology...if it were no nt parents would have trouble raising their nt kids. Same for asd's. We all have this common neurology not shared by nt's, it's important to understand it, and for your loved ones to understand it. Likewise, important for you to understand nt neurology, so you can decide if you feel you would like to make gains in certain areas, neurologically speaking.

If you're going to research the mirror neurons tomorrow, start here first using the search feature on this forum. We've written lots of stuff about them here. In a nut shell, mirror neurons = empathy. If you are nt, and see me raise my hand, your brain will light up as if you were raising your hand just from watching me. If you are autistic, it will not. Neurologically you cannot borrow my perspective. I have no idea why major butt loads of research isn't being done in this area.

Thanks for telling me your a female - but I'm still not hitting on you, ha ha. :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

On the Steve thing, I think I might know what the 'moving' variables are that are troubling you. I agree with what's been said, but I think there is a bit more to it...

Without throwing your dad under the bus here, the strictest rule of manners (in application here) is that you just don't talk behind someone's back - period.

But another thing is, since most people aren't THAT strict about their manners, sometimes just pretend (unknowingly) to be, is that when making 'jokes' about someone you need to consider 2 things when deciding whether they should be 'ok' with hearing it...

first, is the jokester 'close' enough to that person for it to be funny to the subject (Steve), or will it just sound more like a 'jab' or an insult.

second, is the person being poked fun at 'stable' enough to laugh at themselves. Sometimes people just can't laugh at themselves EVER, and sometimes it just applies to certain situations...like those that they already feel bad about for some reason (like they know they aren't good at it).

What I mean here is that I 'try' not to talk about anyone behind their back, but stuff comes up all the time, like the boat situation. Now, if say I was in your Dad's shoes and that was a close friend of mine, I would have been able to say something like that out loud for them to hear directly from my mouth. Unless of course they weren't within earshot...then had the scenario played out exactly like it had with you...my friend would have likely said something like "a$$hole" to me and laughed. Because they are a close friend and they would know it wasn't meant to be hurtful.

But even people that are not so close can 'laugh' at themselves too...but if someone is particularly 'sensative' about their skills or abilities, it's just NOT funny to poke fun at them...if you don't know them well enough to determine that, then it just shouldn't be done.

Does that make sense?

Sounds like your dad was embarrassed that he was caught 'talking' behind someone's back. AND

Steve was hurt by the 'joke.' Particularly since he knows he stinks at docking...he's probably trying real hard, but still he's not getting it right. Now that people have taken notice, and he KNOWS they have, he may get worse because he's nervous about it too...

Now as for your mom and her comments...I'm a bit hurt by them right now. I think because it's highlighted some not soo nice (although not meant to be hurtful) things I've said to my 5yo... UGH! I wanna hug both of you right now & apologize.

My immediate response is to agree that you should talk to her about it. As a general rule you should always talk to someone when they say/do things that bother you...ESPECIALLY your parents.

I wouldn't worry too much about 'how' to present it...just tell her that it's hurtful to you and I'm sure that she will do her best to understand...if you aren't comfortable with that, a note or letter I'm sure would facilatate your feelings well, and she'll probably want to talk to you about it, to explain/apologize.

That is a perfect example of how highlighting someone's less than perfect skill level can be hurtful. The fact that others laugh about it sorta twists the knife, know what I mean? Suppose you overheard your mom joking about your not so appropriate comments with a few others and they all started laughing...I wonder if that's how Steve felt...course we don't know...which is why nothing should have been said...first by your father, but then second by you.

I bet though if asked Steve, without anyone overhearing so that it doesn't broadcast his poor docking skills, if he would be interested in some docking tips or whatever...I bet he wouldn't be hurt by that. Pointing it out 'politely' versus in gest I think is the crux of the trip-up.

Does that make sense? Or did I make it more confusing?

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Nice to see a new face here.

Your post is interesting. What it really is asking I think is to explain empathy.
On the surface, your question revolves around tattling. Tattling which is very common in small children is "telling" that someone else did "something", a something which might get them into trouble with authorities.

Empathy is a complex social skill that has to be learned by humans. Small children typically do not show empathy. As they grow, if their parents are successful, they do learn it. But some NT's never learn it, and there is a word for them-- narcissists. So assuming NT's would understand this question is not a fair assumption. Some would not.

People with autism and Aspies also have difficulty with empathy.

Let's go back to Steve. Why does he not dock the boat well? Does he have a problem that prevents this? Say anxiety once he approaches the dock? Is his vision poor, or impaired, or does he have a neurological problem with motion?
Or is he always in a hurry, and finds it difficult to slow down when he needs to? Or does he think he can do whatever he wants whenever, and if he bangs into others, so what? (this last possibility shows a lack of empathy on Steve's part)

Now lets go back to your father. Did he help Steve dock safely as a kindness?
A kindness to others at the marina. Or a kindness to Steve, because your father understands that Steve tries but just is not skillful? Or did he help Steve to make HIMSELF look good?

If your father wanted to truly help Steve, he would not have mocked him the way he did publicly, and your father would have silently just helped with the lines. But your father said those things. What did that say about HIM? To me it says he wanted to show others how good he was-- in other words get attention for himself, and demonstrate that he is better than Steve.

When you repeated this in front of Steve, you exposed your father's "need" for attention at the expense of another's feelings. That diminished his help and was embarrassing to him.

People tattle on others in order to gain power when an authority is present. Hence they typically get resented.
Little kids do this alot. For example, a kid in a class may tattle on a gum chewing student to the teacher. This elevates this tattler in the teacher's eyes, perhaps. And perhaps not (it may backfire). A tattle may save a life if you see someone planting a bomb in a trashcan at school. But a tattle that another is not following a smaller rule may be perceived by others as self aggrandizing. So tattling in itself is complex like empathy issues. Basically the ones who scream the loudest during a tattle incident are the ones who would and do tattle themselves. So tattling is not always wrong, if it may help others. (bottom line) But it is considered socially unpleasant if it just airs minor infractions.

I think the next aspect of empathy is the most difficult to grasp.
And that is humor at others' expense. There are some comics who belittle others. In some situations, this is funny, but not all people will laugh, depending on the subject. Belittling people may become extreme, as in a "roast" event. This is where a bunch of colleagues get together to HONOR someone for long time service, or even at events like a wedding, and tell jokes to deliberately embarrass the guest of honor. Usually there is a social permission in place for what happens then. And sometimes alcohol is served and lowers the inhibitions of the people there, so no offense is taken.
The person roasted however, may think about it the next day, and not like some of the stuff that happened. (that depends on the person).

I think there is a tendency for humans to enjoy making fun of others. It doesn't mean it is limited to autistics or NT's . It just is. People with alot of empathy tend to not mock others, since they understand how the person who is mocked will feel. Mocking is also a subtle form of aggression, and therefore is inappropriate in many circumstances. If you mock someone behind their back (like your dad did with Steve), it is safer than mocking them face to face. If one is revealed that way, the person mocked could get aggressive or hold that as a grudge and get even later.

Another form of mocking is teasing. Teasing is typically done by one who perceives themselves higher in status or power than the person teased.
People often tease animals, pets for example, and then laugh at them. They feel safe doing this until the dog gets mad and bites them finally!
Parents may tease their children, to expose a behavior they think will change with this shaming tactic. Basically I think teasing is negative, and a form of mockery which belittles the recipient. Teasing and mocking done to excess become sadistic in extreme situations. People who excessively tease until the recipient reacts are very selfish and have little empathy. All they want is a reaction, which then gives them attention and a feeling of power over others. Bullies fall into this category, in my opinion.

So back to you... This situation was a simple tattle on your part. I don't think you meant to mock your dad. You just didn't understand the social dynamics of the situation. What the result is, however, is that YOU ended up holding the bag of resentment. So think about that. Both your dad and Steve can be mad at YOU now, when in the beginning, it was about Steve docking the boat. See how social stuff can get complicated?

BTW I am terrible at docking boats too. I appreciate help, and I see people rolling their eyes at me sometimes. I have never damaged anyone though!
I am a bit afraid of the water, and if I were not forced by family pressures to have a boat, I would not have one. So I dock very slowly and hope the wind
won't come up and I try not to go out alone. This season was my best ever, so my confidence is growing a bit each year.
People are not perfect, we all have weaknesses. One easy way to deal with issues like this is the old saying..."if you don't know what to say, don't say anything"..this works well, for most situations. (but not all)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mrs D, I agree with what you've said here, but I think you are assuming that Dad's actions are ill-willed 100%...and I think that is still up for debate. Certainly it could be the case...but consider sibling rivalry.

In general it is a good thing that comes from a loving place. Yes there can be battered and bruised feelings and soft tissue for that matter, but for the most part exposing one's flaws and helping to improve them is for the better of the 'group' whether that is a family unit or a social unit, like a community. As long as one's ego can withstand the process all is good.

Now, without getting WAY into the dynamics of that, at the most pure place it IS a loving thing.

BUT, it must be shared between people that are 'close' otherwise it can be misinterpreted.

Joking and teasing and mocking can be an act of kindness.

However there are people that just cannot handle these things, even from close relatives or whatever. My sister is one such person. I can't even ask her how she or her children are without her assuming that I am 'fishing' for dirt. I'm not sure why she is SO paranoid, but knowing that she is helps me to 'carefully' converse with her. I would NEVER be able to joke with her.

I can however joke with my best friend who I 'jokingly' refer to as the sister I never had. Now god forbid my sister hear that, she'd likely be very hurt...but it's true, because from where I stand if I can't talk to her...well she just isn't really there, ya know? And incidently we haven't even spoken in 2 years+...she made an obnoxious comment, because somehow she has the right to offend others, the comment was about Coley and his issues...it was something to the effect that if you visit enough Drs one will find something wrong...well it was bad enough that she wasn't supportive during the worst of it with Coley, but then to deny that we went to hell and back with him, beginning with a 6 week death watch at birth, well that did it for me...she had no quams about saying such hurtful things to me, while I tip-toed on egg shells just trying to say "Hi, how are ya"

Ok...I think there was a bit of a vent wrapped up in my point there...thing is, some people can handle straight talk from some people...because it's meant NOT to be hurtful...but sometimes it comes from a not so loving place, like you've spelled out...yes indeed there are people that lift themselves up by putting others down.

But there are people that lift others up, by putting them down. It's all a matter of what's in one's heart. But certainly the 'recipient' needs to be carefully considered.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

concept more neutrally, because I thought it would be better understood by an Aspie.

I don't know any of these people, so there is no way to know which way that emotional wind blows.

But I have been sadistically teased for my whole childhood and abused in other ways too. So I am more acutely tuned to teasing as a negative thing.
In fact when I was in therapy in my early 20's (to help get over my childhood) the therapist is the one who thought teasing was a form of aggression. At that time I didn't know better at all...since it was my "normal" up til then.
My father also sadistically teased our dogs. And he would laugh when they cried and when I cried too.

I think teasing is in the eye of the beholder. The teaser will support it, and the teasee will not like it. When teasing is about something "overcome" as when a child grows out of a thing, and it is no longer an issue, and the tease is a reminder, that is less obnoxious IMO.
And I will confess that the more people (luckily my family doesn't tease me about this), tease me about my boat docking skills, the more nervous
I become and less likely to try to improve. We never teased my son, even when is ADHD and vision issues were huge. He didn't like it (my husband was more likely to tease than I). We found patience was the best road to take with him then.

As far as the boat docking is concerned just saying "Let's give him a hand" is enough. The rest of the father's statements were offered with another point of view IMO. I wouldn't go so far as saying "ill willed", since being ill willed would sabotage the help. But being critical of another, in front of others, is not a great thing to own up to IMO.

This situation I see as complex, because it includes empathy, tattling, types of humor including teasing/mockery and when to apply humor and when it is less desirable to do so. If the dad was not mocking Steve, he wouldn't have been miffed at the little tattle, and would have laughed at himself. But the fact that he WAS miffed, means he meant it, IMO. Of course none of us except Aspigander was there, so we can only speculate.

This thread reminds me a bit of the TV show Star Trek The Next Generation.
Some of the dialogs with Data (the android) remind me of this thread.

I went into neutral detail for Aspigander because I thought she would grasp that better, than an emotional response type answer. The Aspies I know and have known respond well to detail! :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, let me get this out of the way...

Dad was wrong here because if he said something ABOUT someone else that he was not comfortable having repeated to that person, then it should have NEVER been said - period!

Ok, with that said, I hear what you are saying Mrs D. And I'm really sorry for all that you have been through - really! Clearly there is a HUGE difference though between what your dad did and what happened with Steve.

For lack of a better word I think we are dealing with a spectrum...

Where at one end a person pokes fun at someone just to be the comedian, without ANY regard to the other person's feelings, to poking fun at someone to point out their short-comings (and perhaps highlight their 'better' ability) to helping a person 'realize' areas in need of improvement.

CLEARLY your Dad humiliated you and your dogs...this was NOT done in a caring way, at all!

An owner can wrestle with their dog to boost the dogs agility. An owner can isolate a dog when they have done wrong, or in an attempt to train them...those things can also be done to be harmful.

It all depends on what is in ones heart and HOW the action is delivered, ya know what I mean?

I don't really want to bash Dad here, because in the end he didn't ABUSE Steve. I'm assuming too that Steve is NT and he's a fully grown adult that can handle criticism. Sure there may be a bit of resentment about the whole thing, but in the end I'm sure all will be fine.

I ABSOLUTELY agree that at the extreme end of the teasing spectrum, you are 100% correct in all that you say, I am in no way debating that...all I'm saying is that it's probably somewhere in the middle, where no bad intent was meant.

I don't know Dad or Steve, so it's hard for me to say with any certainty what all happened, with the exception of my first comment in this post...clearly Dad didn't want Steve to hear those comments, so they just never should have been uttered...and I agree with the others too that Dad should have anticipated the need to say..."this shouldn't be repeated" But in my mind, that is a VERY confusing message to send, so that just makes a second reason why he should have just bit his lip!

He was BUSTED...and likely feels, as you put it, tattled on, in addition to being embarrassed by his own comments...perhaps Dad will learn from this...let's see, what is it that moms say: "if you don't have something nice to say..." right?

I tend to think that Dad just said that as a sort of observation, with a little humor mixed in...I don't know who else was there...but I could totally see my Dad kind of light heartedly saying something like "man the life boats, Steve's on his way in" on his way over to help...not meaning anything bad about it...just a little humor as he alerts everyone present that Steve's needs help...and my dad is the most humble and helpful guy I know...plus he likes to bring a smile to people faces too...

But as you point out, my perspective comes from my experiences, and yours from your experiences...which is exactly why you need to consider the subject (and probably all those present) before making a comment like that...

I'm sure if Steve were a lifelong friend or a brother or something, then he would have also laughed...if you aren't close enough to draw attention to someone's inabilities, then it just comes across as rude.

I hope all this is helpful and doesn't muddy the waters more...

[Aspigander]

I think what this thread is demonstrating is that, like what was said earlier on, every situation has a lot of unspoken rules, and not only that but many people have varying levels of empathy (which, of course, I have issues with) with which to deal with a situation. It can be tricky, when you perceive things best in black and white, when the world is so full of those darn shades of gray! lol

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

yes, many shades of gray...

But I hope there was something in all of this that clarifies things...and not made it more confusing.

[Aspigander]

I think so. Shades of gray can be confusing, and I'm not sure that there's really a way to get 100% around that. But I think I can better see where the "Steve" situation went awry.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well that is good then!

I think Mrs D actually, perhaps not directly, gave the very best vantage point...in that you never know what shapes people's perspectives, so it is for that reason that you need to be careful about what you say/do.

Certainly when you know just about all you can about a person, then you may be a better judge on whether a comment will be received well or not...but even then you can inadvertantly step on a persons feelings or put your foot in your mouth...because you can never REALLY know everything about someone, ya know.