Neurological Itch & Antihistimines

[lady_express_44]

Ok, so what gives?

I get that pin-prick neurological itch, that comes on in the exact same spots all the time. I have accumulated a few more "spots" over the years, but the sensation is in precise places on one arm, and on the bottom of the other foot.

I noticed years ago (when I only had the foot problem) that it happened when my foot got very warm in slippers. The other spots, which came on in more recent years, seem to bother me more in the summer months, but I never really connected them to "heat" until this year when I noticed the sun really gets them going.

So, I am scratching through my skin over several days, and leaving big open cuts and scars. I'd have dug a hole to China already if I didn't use Hydrocortizone cream, ice packs, and considerable self-control. Lately though, I am 1/2 awake all night scratching, and it is really interfering with my sleep patterns. :(

Someone on another forum mentioned using Zyrtec, which I researched and discovered to be an antihistimine. I've had allergy itching before, but that doesn't feel the same, and doesn't ONLY hit very specific spots. I got desperate this morning though, and I tried Benadryl. It worked (I've only tried once, and it only relieved things for 4 hrs . . . so I suppose more testing is in order).

If Benadryl works though, how can this be if this is "misfired pain signals"? What would antihistimines have to do with helping neurological problems?

NOTE: I am not on any meds except LDN.

Cherie

[0357]

Yes, it does work. Have you considered trying Allegra 60mg every 12 hours? It doesn't make you sleepy. And no, I'm not on LDN...many other drugs for MS problems.

Take care.

EDITED: to say I was originally prescribed Allegra for hives. Glad you posted this for I was about to do the same. Lately itching from the MS has been driving me crazy; especially at night.

[Lossandra]

I tend to be on allergy meds constantly during the warmer month for hayfever anyway, so maybe that's why I haven't had much trouble with neurological itching. I do find that I will get hives when I shower after I stop taking the allergy meds though. I don't think any of this probably has to do with my MS though.

[0357]

Pruritis (itching) may occur as a symptom of MS. It is one of the family of abnormal sensations—such as “pins and needles” and burning, stabbing, or tearing pains—which may be experienced by people with MS. These sensations are known as dysesthesias, and they are neurologic in origin.

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/symptoms/itching/index.aspx

Different from Allergic Itching

Dysesthetic itching may occur suddenly and intensely, but for brief periods. It may be present over any part of the body or face. It is different from the generalized itching that can accompany an allergic reaction, as there is no external skin rash or irritation at the site of itching. Corticosteroid ointments applied to the skin are not helpful in relieving this type of itch.
Medications Can Treat Itching Associated with MS

There are, however, several medications that are usually successful in treating dysesthetic itching. Among them are:

* anticonvulsants, such as carbamazepine (Tegretol®), diphenylhydantoin (Dilantin®), and gabapentin (Neurontin®)
* antidepressants, such as amitriptyline (Elavil®) and the MAO inhibitors
* the antihistamine hydroxyzine (Atarax®).

People who experience itching should consult their physician.

[Lossandra]

I wonder what is different about hydroxyzine (Atarax®) in comparison with other antihistamines. I've never heard of it before.

[lady_express_44]

Pruritis (itching) may occur as a symptom of MS. It is one of the family of abnormal sensations—such as “pins and needles” and burning, stabbing, or tearing pains—which may be experienced by people with MS. These sensations are known as dysesthesias, and they are neurologic in origin.

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/symptoms/itching/index.aspx

Different from Allergic Itching

Dysesthetic itching may occur suddenly and intensely, but for brief periods. It may be present over any part of the body or face. It is different from the generalized itching that can accompany an allergic reaction, as there is no external skin rash or irritation at the site of itching. Corticosteroid ointments applied to the skin are not helpful in relieving this type of itch.
Medications Can Treat Itching Associated with MS

There are, however, several medications that are usually successful in treating dysesthetic itching. Among them are:

* anticonvulsants, such as carbamazepine (Tegretol®), diphenylhydantoin (Dilantin®), and gabapentin (Neurontin®)
* antidepressants, such as amitriptyline (Elavil®) and the MAO inhibitors
* the antihistamine hydroxyzine (Atarax®).

People who experience itching should consult their physician.

Interesting. :cool:

There is no rash or irritation, and it does come on intense, then it lets up for hours or days (only hours lately though).

I saw my doc about it already, and he said it is the neurological type of itch.:confused:

Cherie

[BBS1951]

Maybe it isnt an MS itch afterall?\\

Kidney problems can also cause intense itching btw.

[lady_express_44]

That's worth checking out, BBS, since I do have urinary issues (which I've also attributed to MS :rolleyes:).

"If you can't stop the underlying cause of itching, there are medicines to
reduce the symptom of itching. Remember, such treatments only cover up
the feeling of itching--they do not cure it."

http://www.nwkidney.org/kidneyInformation/basics/Itching.pdf

I guess I should request a referral.

I wasn't out in the sun this morning, so I am going to try to hold off taking the Benadryl tomorrow until I am out. At least that way I will know if it is really working, or if that was coincidence.

Cherie

[lady_express_44]

Oh, and another thing that gets it going, is the position of my arm. If I have it raised to chest level, like on a arm of a couch, it often starts up too.

Cherie

[0357]

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/treatments/medications/index.aspx

http://www.nationalmssociety.org/about-multiple-sclerosis/treatments/medications/hydroxyzine/index.aspx

Brand Name Chemical Name
Atarax hydroxyzine (hye-DROX-I-zeen)
Primary Usage in MS Generic Available
Itching Yes
Description

Hydroxyzine is an antihistamine used to relieve or prevent the symptoms of allergy. In MS it is used to relieve the symptoms of pruritis or paroxysmal itching (one of the sensory symptoms), or dysesthesias, which can be associated with MS.
Proper Usage

Tell your physician if you are on a low-sodium, low-sugar or any other special diet before using hydroxyzine.

Tell your physician if you have any of these medical problems: enlarged prostate; urinary difficulties; glaucoma; heart arrhythmias; low blood potassium levels; liver disease.

Before taking hydroxyzine you should inform your physician if you are taking aspirin on a regular basis.
Precautions

Hydroxyzine will add to the effect of alcohol and other central nervous system depressants such as sedatives, tranquilizers, sleeping medications, prescription pain medications, barbiturates, seizure medications, muscle relaxants, and anesthetics including dental anesthetics.

Hydroxyzine may cause drowsiness and make you less alert. You should be familiar with the effects of this drug before driving or using machinery.

Hydroxyzine may cause dryness of the mouth, nose and throat. If dryness continues for more than two weeks check with your physician or dentist as prolonged dryness may cause dental disease.

Hydroxyzine may cause nausea or vomiting, which may cover up the symptoms of overdose or appendicitis.

Most antihistamines have not been studied in pregnant women; some animal studies have shown increased birth defects.

Antihistamines pass into breast milk. They may also decrease the flow of breast milk in some patients. Babies may also be susceptible to side effects such as irritability or excitement.
Possible Side Effects

Side effects that usually go away as your body adjusts to the medication and do not require medical attention unless they persist or are bothersome: drowsiness; thickened mucus; blurred vision*; difficult urination*; dizziness; dry mouth; fast heartbeat; sensitivity to sun; appetite changes; nightmares; ringing or buzzing in the ears; skin rash; stomach upset; nervousness or restlessness.

Side effects that should be discussed with your physician as soon as possible: fast or irregular heartbeat; sore throat and fever; unusual bleeding or bruising; unusual tiredness * or weakness*.

Symptoms of overdose include: clumsiness or unsteadiness; seizures; severe drowsiness; feeling faint; flushing; hallucinations; shortness of breath; sleeping difficulties.

*Since it may be difficult to distinguish between certain common symptoms of MS and some side effects of hydroxyzine, be sure to consult your health care professional if an abrupt change of this type occurs.

[Jakaloke]

If Benadryl works though, how can this be if this is "misfired pain signals"? What would antihistamines have to do with helping neurological problems?

Strange, isn't it? I think it's pretty strange that steroid creams will relieve neuro itching, too. I go through quite a bit of the stuff (Betaderm), it works great. Glad the Benadryl works for you Cherie. Itching sucks.

Scott

[BBS1951]

I'm fascinated by your arm posiiton comment LE.

I get this sporadic itching across my back when I bend over or move so that my back is stretched curved over.--and not every time, but often after swimming. (heat induced?) I've also thought it must be neurological since it turns on and off very rapidly. But, I cannot figure out why it would Be MS related since it's positional--unless when you and I do our positional thing, it somehow affects the way our spinal cord moves about --kind of like an itching L'Hermitte?

[lady_express_44]

The itch has been not too bad today, without meds, so with any luck it's run it's course. Then again, it was an extremely windy (but sunny :confused:) day today, so I didn't go out much at all.

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I don't think I'll try that drug just yet, 0357, as it seems to have lots of side-effects. I know they are just a "list" of potential problems . . . but meds and I don't get along at the best of times. :(

So you find the coritzone cream helps too, Scott? Sometimes it does for me, even when the itching is positional . . . but not lately. How about that weather today? It felt a bit like a tropical island, didn't it?

BBS, I was trying to remember another symptom I started getting earlier this year that my neuro simularly attributed to L'hirmettes. It is when I lay on my back, or sit in specific positions, my legs and hands go number (then they already are). Those positions don't cause the 'typical' L'hirmettes sensation (the zapping/shock when the head is bent forward . . . which I also get), just the numbness starts up. It lets up after several minutes of being in another position though, so I guess she's right.

I suppose this "positional" itch could be something similar. :cool: In fact, I am going to try to pay attention to if these more recent two spots are positional too. It may be that when I am in the heat, it is when I am working in the garden, driving or laying a certain way . . . so maybe it is positional (+ heat) as well. :confused:

Cherie

[Lossandra]

Thanks 0357,

I had seen that page but I was more curious about the specifics of how the antihistamine functioned differently from something like benedryl for example. What it is that sets it apart as one that specifically works on non-allergy caused itching.

[0357]

CRS...that drug you asked about Lossandra is the drug I listed... Allegra has given me no side effects though I have not sought out its possible side effects. Click on the first link and you will see why it is prescribed.

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a697035.html

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/druginfo/medmaster/a697035.html#side-effects

Allegra:

What side effects can this medication cause? Return to top

Fexofenadine may cause side effects. Tell your doctor if any of these symptoms are severe or do not go away:

* headache
* dizziness
* diarrhea
* vomiting
* pain in the arms, legs, or back
* pain
* pain during menstrual period
* cough

Some side effects can be serious. If you experience any of these symptoms, call your doctor immediately:

* hives
* rash
* itching
* difficulty breathing or swallowing
* swelling of the face, throat, tongue, lips, eyes, hands, feet, ankles, or lower legs
* hoarseness
* difficulty swallowing or breathing

Fexofenadine may cause other side effects. Call your doctor if you have any unusual problems while taking this medication.
----
I'm not allergic to this drug and have none of the possible side effects.

Take care.

[lady_express_44]

Hi Lossandra,

I think I may have pieced together an answer, by talking to my pharmacist, and doing a little research.

My pharmacist said that the only rx antihistimine that we have available is Atarax, which is one of the brands made from hydroxyzine. She said no other drug is made of this compound.

So, I came back and looked up hydroxyzine, and it seems that it is a combination of antihistimine and onxiolytic. I'm thinking it's the onxiolytic that makes it prescription:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anxiolytic

However, I don't suppose a person would need that to take care of the itching . . . it's probably the antihistimine in it that does that. :confused:

So, as 0357 has pointed out, perhaps any antihistimine might do the job for neurological itching.

Why it would work though, I still don't know.

Cherie

[Jo Ike]

Cherie,

Been away for awhile, saw your post about the itching. I have had this since 1997, before I got the TM. Only it's even worse now. I get it once or twice a year & it lasts up to 4 months. I get it on my upper arms.

I can no longer use zyrtec, benydral , etc due to the amount of meds I'm on.
Hydrocortizone creams don't help me at all, even the RX ones.

It wakes me out of a sound sleep, it's deep under the skin, & I scratch the you know what out it, It actually makes my skin bleed. The only thing that has helped so far is applying ice packs right away, then I dry my arm off & apply a Lidoderm patch. They do nothing for me for pain, so I told the doc I use them for the itch. I hope your itch is better.
Joanne :)

[lady_express_44]

Cherie,

Been away for awhile, saw your post about the itching. I have had this since 1997, before I got the TM. Only it's even worse now. I get it once or twice a year & it lasts up to 4 months. I get it on my upper arms.

I can no longer use zyrtec, benydral , etc due to the amount of meds I'm on.
Hydrocortizone creams don't help me at all, even the RX ones.

It wakes me out of a sound sleep, it's deep under the skin, & I scratch the you know what out it, It actually makes my skin bleed. The only thing that has helped so far is applying ice packs right away, then I dry my arm off & apply a Lidoderm patch. They do nothing for me for pain, so I told the doc I use them for the itch. I hope your itch is better.
Joanne :)

Hi Jo. Hope you have been "away" on vacation and are doing well. :)

I also have success with cold packs, and have even been known to fall asleep with them. However, sometimes I've mindlessly itched in my sleep . . . and once I start, the cold packs don't seem to work so well because my skin is irritated as well.

Libododerm patches, eh? I guess that makes sense too, since it is supposed to be "misfired pain signals". :)

The spot that was driving most crazy lately, has momentarily let up. The one that healed a few weeks ago has started again though. :cool: It is so intermittent, that it seems drastic to use antihistimines every day to control it . . . but I suppose they'll help with my other allergies anyway (am supposed to take them and nasal spray anyway ;)).

I think I might try that patch too though, depending on what's in them. I wonder if those would be helpful for other neurological sensations too, like burning, etc. :confused:

Cherie

[Jo Ike]

Cherie,

Still down the shore, not on the PC much. For some reason my legs keep swelling & from talking to people on the TM site, it's also happening to some of them. Maybe weather. I have to find out if it's the sun, I've only been to beach 2 times, can't handle the walk on the sand & the burning.

Okay, so anyway the Lidoderm patches contain Lidocaine. You can wear up to 3 at a time & you can also cut them for smaller areas, I usually cut in half for my arms & try & put on immediately if I feel an itch. You have to wear them 12 hours on & 12 hours off. They did not work on me for nerve pain or burning but I think they do for some people. I think any doctor can prescribe them.

Joanne

[terric]

Benadryl really works. I only take it at bedtime though. Of course I only take it when the itching starts. I also have scars from scratching. The ice packs work, but don't last.

You must be tired all the time from not sleeping well.

terric

[Annie1234]

Cherie, I also have one MS itch ... it's on my back in the one place I can't reach it, which I used to hate, but after reading this thread, perhaps not being able to scratch it with my fingernails is a good thing.

I use a backscratcher, and so far I've been able to relieve the itch without breaking the skin, a concern I hadn't thought of before reading this thread. I also stand in doorways with my back moving across the door jam to relieve the itch.

Sometimes I call loudly for my family members to help by shouting, "The itch, the itch!!" and they all know exactly where to scratch my back. I think and dread that another itch is starting in the same exact spot on the other side of my back, and I wonder how that can be?

My mother has a liver disease and itches all over her body with no help to be found. Her doctor said the itch is the one sensation that is controlled by the brain rather than by the spinal cord, and researchers don't know why.

With the itch being controlled in the brain, it is much harder to treat than other sensations -- her doctor said there is some speculation that this hard-to-treat problem is due to a very poisonous environment from plants and animals in prehistoric times of human evolution.

Best of luck with your itching, and thanks for starting this interesting thread.

Btw, I'm worried that my 16 y.o. daughter might also have MS...migraines and insomnia. I make sure to give her vitamin D3 drops which were approved by her pediatrician; her vitamin D blood levels are checked yearly.

~Annie

[Lady]

Hi LE,
I get those itchy arms at night or with position too. During sleep or leaning just slightly on a nerve, when you have MS, or some other disorders, can give the sensation of itch. As long as no rash is visible then it is deep within the nerve.(a wrong feeling)

My MS doctor said to change the sensation you are feeling. If you feel itchy you can take a muscle relaxing vibrator and put it on the skin, move it up and down. Or pat it hard a few times with your hand.

In other words he is saying, is to try to trick the brain into feeling a different sensation. I first put on a dry skin cream, and I may rub the itchy area or pat it all over a few times hard, or put anything vibrating on it.

I think cold packs are doing the same thing. Changing the skin to feel cold is changing the sensation. The brain thinking it was itchy and you made it feel a cold sensation. When the wrong nerve signal feeling is transmitted, it CAN be changed.

As for the burning, rub it with cream, just the rubbing helps, unless it feels hot too, than it may be a different cause.

So to sum up the above. Do something totally opposite or different to change the feeling to another feeling. Anyone can do this.

Example of a normal reaction is when you feel cold, with goose bumps, you place a warmed blanket over the skin to change it to warmer or hotter skin feeling. The goose bumps go away. A reaction, and then an opposite reaction.

It is all just sensations, probably MS nerve signals perceived as something different, IMO.

As for Atarax, it was a blessing when I had hives for 10 years all over my body. It is sedating and I fell asleep or was nodding at meetings in work. :) I drowned myself in hydrocortisone cream and still needed the Atarax. Then the hives stopped, when I found the offending foods that caused them, with a rotation diet.

They give Atarax to children who get Chicken Pox so they don't itch. I think it puts them to sleep early too. :D

Lidoderm (Lidocaine patches 5%) are not good with LDN, I think I read. I used to use them for back pain. They give a Novocain reaction, numb the area, but the medication does enter the whole system, not just the area, it reaches the brain's pain center. They are very expensive. They work for pain that is localized, or inured.

Rambling on and on..

I hope you get the picture, it took this whole page to write my use of these medications and the solutions that worked for me.

Oh, you can also rub menthol, like Vicks vapor rub, to change the sensations of the skin, even itch or burning. Or try Mineral Ice, blue stuff in a jar. Lots of things you can think of to try. My two cents and JMO. I hope it stops soon for you. Worrying about your daughter can make your nerves react too.
Lady


.

[grendel]

My daughter has terrible eczema and has been using atarax since she was less than a year old. It is the only thing that works, and only sometimes. Note that is can make you a bit "giddy" at times. My daughter will often get what we call the atarax high about 15m after a dose.

[lady_express_44]

Thank you, everyone, for your input.

Thanks for all the information and advice, Lady. This is actually an old thread, dating back to last summer . . . not that that matters. I still have the same issues on occasion, but this isn't occurring due to the recent worry about my daughter. :) It has been much better with the cooler weather though.

Geez, Annie . . . not your family too. :-(

Cherie