Ketongenic Diet in Autism

[mrsjerome]

Pilot Study for use of Ketogenic Diet in children with autistic behavior
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12693778?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

[Isabelle]

good fats are essentials, dha fish oils, omega 3 6 9 are all necessary for a healthy immune system and nervous system, for the brain to learn in general the maturation of all our systems. so i am not surprised that ketogenic diet works for some autistics.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I'm not at all surprised by this either, because someone who is on the ketogenic diet is GF/CF, following the SCD, following the paleo diet, following fail safe diet, and following the fiengold diet...all of which parents have made claims about being helpful.

It also meets fructose restrictions, and it would also eliminate colors and most preservatives...the only thing that would remain is whatever is used on the greens and whatever is used with the cattle.

I'd be interested to see if the outcomes would be different if they use organic products in their study...or I wonder if they did????

It was unbelievable how much of a difference we saw in Coley between the regular market and the organic one. Loooong before we found the fructose intolerance...long before he stopped projectile vomiting...it was his behavior and sleep that was so adversely affected by non-organic food that it made that much of a difference. Course the doctors couldn't make heads or tails of that...and still they cannot, but at least Dr Y (his GI) has had enough people tell him that he doesn't question or doubt us.

well, anyhoo...I wonder whether they used organic or not???

PLUS, many kids on the spectrum have seizure disorders, and/or irregular brainwave activity...the ketogenic diet is, as you know, a treatment for that...so of course if all it does is bring some brainwave activity into normal functioning, or better...then improvement should be seen.

I wonder too what improvements were noted...like stimming, or sleep, or OCD, or speech, or some combo, or if there was some consistency to the areas that were improved....that would be interesting to see...

I guess this is another example of the medical community listening...that's nice!

[mrsjerome]

Look at the history of the ketogenic diet
http://www.naturalphysiques.com/cms/index.php?itemid=111
In the article it states it was used in the early 1900’s . That was near
A hundred years ago. Now we are looking at it again for it is deemed
To be an alternative to drug therapy in epilepsy. Why has it taken this
Long for researchers to be thought useful for kids with autism?
Could it not be that was in the case of epilepsy it was just more
Convenient and easier to just take a pill. As in both epilepsy and autism
Pills don’t always work and one can have such side effects that makes
Drug therapy a question mark. This diet may not work for all either
As neither do the drugs. Hopefully will not have to wait another 100
Years to find out the why’s

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

a hundred years ago this was the only treatment for seizures. Of course popping a pil was a better alternative. Just like being able to take anitibiotics versus dying of infection.

Of course now we now, after a 'public' sorta trial that there are consequences to antibiotics, that it's not always the be all end all...but I'm sure that perspective has a lot to do with the fact that we live much cleaner lives than we did back when antibiotics were first introduced, PLUS modern medical practices and access to urgent/emergent care is MUCH more available...so the use, or overuse of antibiotics coupled with the 'problems' gives us that perspective...if it were still a matter antibiotic/death...we wouldn't be so negative about it these days, ya know.

Likewise with the diet, sure not all the meds work, and the diet is still used as a last resort when that is the case, but the perspective has been for a long time that pills ARE better AND more consistent than a diet, so it kinda makes sense to me, but I do of course I agree that it has taken TOO long for it to be studied in conjunction with ASDs...but it's only been just recently that the ASD frequency has given rise to the notion of a 'crisis' to the seemingly obvious extent that someone out there must be saying, hmmmmm lets take a look at WHY some of these diets seem to be working...kinda seems like a no brainer to me that it has to do with seizure control, but who knows, it may be something in the restricted food that is causing the seizures versus the idea that a high fat diet is what the brain needs...like a metabolic disorder, or maybe the energy conversion problems with mito...time will tell I guess.

I'm wondering too, if the ketogenic diet meets the restrictions for mito???? Does anyone know? I know it does to some degree, where sugars and corn and chemicals/preservatives are eliminated...but I don't know what other restrictions are with the mito diet.

[RathyKay]

I'm not at all surprised by this either, because someone who is on the ketogenic diet is GF/CF,
No! Keto is not dairy-free. It is full of cream. I'm not sure if there is such thing as dairy-free keto diet. (I bet they'd have higher success rates with dairy-free keto.)

Keto is... a demanding diet. You have to weigh your foods and get the exact ratio of fats and proteins. It is very low carb. You are expected to eat your whole meal, nothing but the meal, and nothing less than the entire meal. They even restrict your water.

I realize that I am a diet nut. But, I don't sweat it if Tom decides he's not very hungry for lunch and would rather eat more for supper. With keto, you really need your child to eat it all each meal. Otherwise, it's like taking only half of your medicine, or skipping it. And, when you go low carb and start burning ketones instead of glucose, your appetite is suppressed.

I am glad they're looking into diet. Maybe a modified Atkins diet (MAD), which is also low carb (not nearly as low), but is less restricted and easier on all the parties involved (chef and patient)? Or a low-carb Paleo diet, like we're doing.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

It's funny Kathy...I went outside with the kids after I posted that, and while I was out thatching and doing yard work...I remembered the cream...:rolleyes:

Well my point was only that the restricted items are consistent (but oops on the cream), not that the diets are the same...could you image me trying the keto diet with Coley...OMG! talk about stress, YIKES!

I have to still wonder though, is it the lack of something with the keto diet, or the actual proportions that are 'fixing' it???

I hope "they" find something useful!

And oh yeah, the Atkins diet...has been proven to lower cholesterol...plaque...it's that what is being looked at as the 'culpret' with Alziemers, and hasn't that been linked to autism by some researchers????

I have an online buddy that became fructose intolerant from statins....when he found the link he stopped taking them and was able to tolerate fructose again...I'm not sure what he's doing these days to manage his cholesterol though...

[RathyKay]

I have to still wonder though, is it the lack of something with the keto diet, or the actual proportions that are 'fixing' it???
I've wondered this, too. One of these days, I'm going to read "The Ketogenic Diet" by Freeman (he also wrote "Seizures and Epilepsy in Childhood" that most of the seizure set parents have read) and see what some of the current thinking of the diet is. Anyway, I think it's the low carbs more than anything (not the ratio). I think the water restriction is just so that your urine is concentrated and you can have a more consistent ketone measurement. It just doesn't seem like restricting water should do a body good?:confused: I guess I wonder if a low carb Paleo diet would give just as good results, if not better due to lack of dairy.

When Riley tried keto over on Child Neuro, I went and bought ketostix for us. We're in mild ketosis. I'm not sure if that's some of the reason for Tom's seizure control?

Did you ever check out "Good Calories, Bad Calories" by Taube? There's a lot of evidence pointing to carbs as the problem. Cancers burn glucose to grow and can't handle ketones. The brain does very well on ketones and the body can make the little bit of glucose it needs. There's a lot on how the body processes starches / sugars and insulin and the liver and cholesterol and storing it as fat, etc, etc. I really need to re-read it a few times to get it all worked out. And give up my chocolate chips.:o He ties together diabetes, heart disease, obesity, aspects of aging. And he has references for all of the research supporting his claims.

[mrsjerome]

The SCD die
http://www.healingcrow.com/dietsmain/scd/scd.html
They say this diet has been around for 60 years why again
Is there a reluctance on physicians to implement and
Recommend it. One would think after 60 years there
Would be enough knowledge and tests done to be able to
Tell if it is workable or not. It seems to work by starving
The bacteria that causes these gastrointestinal illnesses.
It ‘s also related in a way to the ketogenic diet. As do a number of other low carb and sugar free.ones.
These diets Have been around x number of years
I find it hard to believe that the experts are first now looking
More into these type of diets that have been around for years.
I want to remind some of you concerning the preservatives in foods.
In earlier times the people used to grow their own produce
And when they did their canning did not have to use the preservatives
We have in our canned food today. Even the meat they ate was not laced with
Preservative grains fed to their livestock. . People in that era tended to make
everything from scratch. Their home made products were
Just that homemade.no preservatives or additives. Now we have to look at food labels
Like crazy to see if there is something in there one can’t tolerate or be allergic too

[Isabelle]

i was watching a medical show about a new disease "Morgellon Disease" and went online to read and apparently since 1970s scientists observed the possibility of spreading out of control this man-made bacterium used on GM food or genetic modified foods.

"Agrobacterium and Morgellon Disease, a GM Connection?"
www.i-sis.org.uk/agrobacteriumAndMorgellons.php

"News about the mysterious Morgellon Disease - links it to..."
https://www.kitcomm.com/showthread.php?p=238162-36k

i am already paranoid about getting my hands dirty.....*ack*ack i don't need this at this stage of my life....:(:eek:

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

OMG! Isabelle I've seen stuff on that before...it's REALLY weird!

Mrs J...I stay FAR away from preservatives, additives and other such chemicals...we notice a GIANT difference in Coley when he gets them. I don't really know why...could it be that his liver or kidneys can't filter them like others can? Or is it that it just affects him in a neurologically different way? Perhaps they are affecting others, but in a not so obvious way? It's definately a curious thing, but I just come back to: if it doesn't agree with him, don't give it to him! Coley's, ped, GI & metabolic Dr all say the same thing...they have NO clue why he's not tolerating these things, or why he is affected the way he is...but doesn't matter for now...his body is making a VERY clear statement and we should respect that...he basically has the same sorta reaction to meds too!

[Isabelle]

ok, about genetic modified foods, should we freak out about eating that gm foods or of touching the soil or of both ???? :eek: and which ones are modified?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well I don't know if we should be freaking out per se, but I do think that things like this are rushed to the store shelves before much research is done into how it may be harmful...or perhaps beneficial to the public. I think the rule of thumb is whether or not it will serve the manufacturers in some way and how hard they lobby for it. There are basically no incentives for them to consider longterm effects...of course GM produce will grow faster, bigger, more plentiful, less blemishes, so.....

Having said that, from what I understand right now organic foods are not genetically modified. And there are no label requirements on GM produce, so non-organic could be GM or may not be.

I did see a news report a while back, hmmm, maybe last fall??? That the manufacturers behind GM produce wanted to be able to call them organic as long as they met all the other requirements (no pesticides, etc) but WFs and some other groups lobbied hard against it because there hasn't been enough research into how those altered produce can effect people's health, and that their customers wanted assurance that things purchased in their store is 'as nature intended.' hmmm...maybe it wasn't the organic label, now that I think about it, maybe it was the 'all natural' labeling...in either case, if you buy your produce from an organic source, it won't be GM.

There's another twist though. Much of the produce that we eat now, organic or not has beed altered...cross bred so to speak, to change it's original characteristics. Which in turn does change it's DNA. All those baby veggies, seedless fruits, etc. I'm sure you are thinking, big deal, right? But it's worth considering in sorta the same light, because a lot of what has been done has been done to make things taste more appealing...generally sweeter. For most it may not matter, but for those dealing with yeast issues, or sugar issues (like diabetes, or fructose intolerance) it does. A lot of the veggies that Coley SHOULD be able to tolerate he cannot, and it is similar with others in the fructose group. Even adults that used to be able to tolerate certain veggies can no longer...because they are now out of balance (glucose to fructose ratio or fiber) or too high in fructose.

There is now another category of produce called heirloom...those have been unaltered in anyway, just past down from generation to genetration...they are VERY expensive though.

Gotta love capitalism!

[mrsjerome]

we all need to move from this polluted planet
Next destination Mars. Construction has begun already lol


http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk317/Byzbarb/MarsWal-Mart.jpg

[Isabelle]

oh LOL LOL mrs j :D:D:D love it!

[milivica]

OMG MrsJ. that pic is equally hilarious and disturbing...cause that's probably how it will look if we all do wind up on another planet.

Ok, serious question...I have no idea about this keytone diet thing, can RathyKay or Kristen or someone give me a Keytone for Dummies kind of link so I can read about it - mostly I'm curious about burning glucose versus a keytone, I have no idea how it works when I eat, what burns, what don't...can someone give me a simple link explaining how food and neurology and weight work when we eat?

Thanks much,
Lisa

[mrsjerome]

What would life be like without a coffee shop lol
http://i283.photobucket.com/albums/kk317/Byzbarb/StarbucksonMars.jpg

[mrsjerome]

Here is a link explaining the atkins type diet
http://medindia.net/patients/patientinfo/Atkinsdiet_work.htm
This is another link explaining the Atkins for seizures
http://atkinsforseizures.com/index.html
Kristan and Rathy Kay will probably be better able to explain how the processes works as they seem to be more knowlegable on the dietary issues
hope the links I have posted help explain a little bit

[milivica]

Starbucks too, lol.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out. I don't so much want to do a diet, but I am really curious how it all works. The human body and eating I mean.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Here's another link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

it also hints here to the question that Kathy & I have, about the strictness of the diet versus the restriction of something...here it suggest it's the high proportion of medium chain fatty acids that is what makes it successful.

It's called the ketogenic diet because it produces ketones, but 'science' does not actually know why this diet controls siezures. Of course they know ketones are much more efficient than glucose for brian function, so it's a good guess.

But many of the kids on the fructose free diet also generate ketones...

Also, low carb diets (SCD, Atkins, etc), and all the others mentioned above, like the GF/CF bring fats & protiens up as carbs go down...so there is a chance that all these diets that people try with their ASD kids are actually achieving the same thing that the keto diet is...like producing ketones, OR eliminating some aggrevating item....

I have to wonder about the whole sugar thing though, you know that's my particular bias...

Of course you probably know carbs/starch/sugars get converted to glucose for immediate use in the GI tract. Protien and fats get metabolized & stored. They are burned through ketosis...in the simplest terms.

However, fructose is a unique sugar...it is not converted directly to glucose. It is converted through the fat matabolism process (in the liver) to fat before it is used...this is why fruits & veggies (and fructose based sugar substitues, like sorbitol) are encouraged for diabetics.

I'm not an expert on the ketogenic diet, at all...but know enough about it to wonder about the similarities between it and these other diets that seem to work wonders for some kids...even kids with ADD/ADHD go on diets like SCD and fiengold and see HUGE improvements...it's GOTTA make you wonder...

[RathyKay]

Hah! Kristen, I went looking for info yesterday on Wikipedia, too, but never looked under ketogenic diet. I looked under ketones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketone_bodies but it didn't strike me as very helpful). I did like what I found under Low Carb Diets, so I recommend reading that one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet
The keto diet entry talks more about seizure control. The low carb diet talks more about weight loss, but it also gets into the controversy on what we should be eating... are we meant to eat all these carbs and run on glucose, or should we be low carb and running on ketones? (Check out the "Ketosis and Insulin Synthesis: What is Normal?" section.)
The diets of most people in modern, so-called western nations, especially the United States contain significant amounts of starches (and, frequently, significant amounts of sugars). As such, the metabolisms of most westerners tend to operate outside of ketosis and tend to involve significant insulin production. This has been regarded by medical science in the last century as being "normal." Ketosis has generally been regarded as a dangerous (potentially life-threatening) state which unnecessarily stresses the liver and causes destruction of muscle tissues. The view that has been developed is that getting energy more from protein than carbohydrates causes liver damage and that getting energy more from fats than carbohydrates causes heart disease and other health problems. This view is still the view of the majority in the medical and nutritional science communities.[52][53][54]

Most advocates of low-carbohydrate diets (specifically those that recommend diets similar to the Atkins Diet) argue that this metabolic state (using primarily blood glucose for energy) is not normal at all and that the human body is, in fact, supposed to function primarily in ketosis.[55][56] They argue that high insulin levels can, in fact, cause many health problems, most significantly, fat storage and weight gain. They argue that the purported dangers of ketosis are unsubstantiated (some of the arguments against ketosis result from confusion between ketosis and ketoacidosis which is a related but very different process).[57] They also argue that fat in the diet only contributes to heart disease in the presence of high insulin levels and that if the diet is instead adjusted to induce ketosis, fat and cholesterol in the diet are not a major concern (although most do not advocate unrestricted fat intake and do advocate avoiding trans fat). Further, whereas insulin in the bloodstream causes storage of food energy, when the body is in ketosis, excess ketones (which contain excess energy) are excreted in the urine and the breath.[58]
And ketosis, if you're interested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketosis which once again mentions "glucose is the preferred fuel for the body" and just touches on the controversy. The thing is, cavemen didn't eat all the starch and sugar "we" eat today. So, is glucose really preferred by our bodies? Or ketones? Or maybe "preferred" isn't the right word. Is glucose better for our bodies than ketones?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Excellent Kathy!

AND...I think this moves nicely into the whole idea of mito too...where that all has to do with the 'underperformance' (there's probably a better word) of the conversion/use of energy...so if you look at how a body that has mito damage/defect/disorder more efficiently converts & uses energy, I think you'd have those answers...I think.

As I mentioned above, I don't know that answer...I tried hunting it down, but couldn't find anything to answer the question directly...but I do know that the mito diet excludes a lot of sugars...including fruits & veggies, part of the diet involves fructose elimination, but it goes further...a lot of starchy things that are normally ok on the fructose restricted diet are restricted or eliminated, like corn products (flours, meals, starch) and potatoes. Whole grains are out for fructose restriction, so this largely means a HUGE restriction on carbs...not sure if white rice is ok, but it is for FF...so it's like no whole grains, no processed corn, no fruits, no veggies, no nuts, no beans, no root veggies...I just don't know if there is more to it, but sure am curious...

[peglem]

So, now I'm wondering if there's been any research on ketogenic diet for diabetes. My husband has type 2 diabetes and has gone insulin dependant this last year. Guess I'll have to look into that.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Thats a good question...let us know what you find...

[RathyKay]

I'm not sure about keto and diabetes, but the low carb entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet) mentions it
Apart from obesity low-carbohydrate diets are often discussed as treatments for some other conditions, most notably diabetes[5][6][7] and epilepsy,[8][9][10] although these treatments still remain controversial and lack widespread support.
Once again, that "Good Calories, Bad Calories" book has a *lot* of scientific info on diabetes... along with the effects of carbs. The book is understandable, but there is a lot of info to absorb (unless you know most of it already). Anyway, low carb was the original diabetic treatment, before insulin came along. And he talks a lot about the role of insulin in the body (and plaques in the arteries and fat storage and it's all mixed up in my head because I need to re-read it.)

[Isabelle]

to add essential oils to our diets have been found to satiate our appetites longer time and better than proteins or carbs.
i say everything in moderation, use small plates, but be conscious to add good oils like olive oil, udo's 3-6-9 on your lentils, potatoes, etc. a bit of butter on your scramble eggs. why not. i fried then bbq my meats keeping some fat for a tasty gravy.

editing: finally my universe is there ....!!!