Anthropomorphic aspie...

[milivica]

I got a dog from Humane Society two days ago.

He has no idea he's a dog. He's terrified of my dogs and all dogs. He doesn't understand a single nonverbal cue from my dogs. He doesn't understand a single nonverbal cue from me. He adores the kids and once near them, he sort of 'claims' them and attacks me if I come near. However when he's sitting next to me, he attacks anyone that comes near except the kids. He bit me about 20 times so far, missed about 40 (cause I can read him ;) ) He doesn't bite hard, once your finger is in his mouth, he's not sure what to do so sort of chatters his teeth. He barks at the phone, vacuum, anytime we walk, anytime we sneeze, anytime one of our dogs move, anytime he notices he stopped barking.

Other than that, we hardly know he's here.

He's very very smart, he's a toy poodle, has a leg that was broken and healed crooked so his front paw looks like a hockey stick. His name is Cocoa. Because he is so fearful and bites so much, I'm going to tell the Humane Society they really need to give me some tips to help him understand he has a place in our home and with our 'pack', he does not 'own' my kids and can't guard them - he is their dog they are not his kids.

So far I'm doing ok with these issues, we hug A LOT in front of him, which initially made him bite but now he barks and lunges. However, when he doesn't we include him in our hug so he can be a part of it, but not run the show dictating with biting who is allowed by him to do what. He's temporarily not allowed on the couches, because that's when he becomes 'territorial' over the kids and I want to better set him up to succeed, not give him more power to bite. Know what I mean? My daughter, then my son, then I take all three for a walk around the park for 1/2 hour so they can feel that 'pack' feeling walking. At least I'm hoping they will. What's great is for the most part my dogs ignore him, he will not allow them near him but after they walk away he tries to bite them...when he does I grab him immediately and let my dogs sniff his butt against his will. I had put him on the ground in a submissive position, but he's so fearful, that seemed to make him more aggressive plus fear me, and I want to build trust with him...so as you can see I'm not entirely sure what to do. If I had the money I'd go to a swank Cesar Milan type, we have a wonderful woman nearby Patricia McConnel.

So, this dog in my opinion has every ability to learn to become the dog he is. My heart just breaks for him, because I know what it feels like to not understand how to be a human. So I'm probably being anthropomorphic, but I just want to be able to help this dog transform himself into the dog he was meant to be. Secure, confident, able to read dogs and humans, feeling loved and a part of a pack.

I have excellent medical records and history on him...he was purchased at 8 weeks old, but was crated all but 1/2 hour in the morning and 4 hours at night Mon-Fri (out on Sat and Sun). He did not 'get along' with the man in the house, I'm guessing for the same reasons he's struggling with us...he thinks we are 'his' just like a bone or toy. I did speak to the previous owner, I could see from his medical records on his broken leg they did take excellent physical care of him, and probably spoiled him cause they loved him. Turned out her only son who is now an adult has Downs Syndrome, so that was an interesting phone call we shared, she and I. At first she cried, she felt so guilty and worried about Cocoa, and sang his praises. The biting she didn't mention, but maybe he never bit them cause they gave him his way? He didn't bite me at first, until I picked him up anyway when he was 'guarding' HIS daughter, oh, I mean my daughter, lol. Maybe because she has a son, that explains the dog's clear attachment to my kids. If he didn't like kids, that I couldn't deal with. Oh and he's totally housebroken, so that's for sure a plus. So far, he gets along best with the tortoise, hee hee.

Wish me luck! I can't say we're going to keep him for sure, I can say as long as I get a few tools from Humane Society, I see every reason to believe he can learn to live within our house rules (no biting) and best of all learn to enjoy having 2 crazy dog brothers, my other dogs Charlie and Manny. This dog is a bit taller than my other dogs, but right in between their weight. I can totally see them making wonderful play partners. I'd be crushed if I couldn't make this work, cause I know all this dog needs is the right 'leader' and I'm not sure if I know what to do. Like I said before, I'm going to ask Humane Society to work with me on this, I need guidance! I need poodle-RDI, hee hee.

[JungleWoman]

LOL poodle RDI! I love it!

I dont know much about dogs but I think its interesting that you found a dog with aspie traits so you can relate to him!

I hope it works out!!

Did his previous owner say why his leg healed so strangely? Are you just fostering him right now?

*Im jealous...I want a dog! LOL*

[callyflower]

There is a Cesar Millan group on Yahoo. He sounds like a "red zone" case and I'd really think LONG and HARD about whether it's fair to your family to have to put up with the biting and so forth. You have an awful lot of stuff going on in your life and this seems like a BIG chore with no real assurance the outcome will be good.

Good luck.

[milivica]

Cally,

Wow a Cesar Milan group on yahoo? Can anyone join?

I do hear what you're saying about a 'red zone' case. It kills me that he might not get to stay for just that reason, but, this was not a job I was willing to take on, and 'pity' and so on isn't enough to help this dog be 'rehibilitated'. I take into account also, that everything this dog ever knew, is gone, he is still in a very stressful situation - though it doesn't mean it's ok to bite, it's not the same to me as one of my 'established' dogs biting one of us. He's all of a sudden thrown into a home with what he fears (other dogs), and most of all an 8 pound red zone dog for me is not the same as an 80 pound red zone case, know what I mean?

JW, not fostering this time, we adopted him. His leg is as good as it's going to get. He broke it, rebroke it, then bent the pin in the leg...the previous owner took him to the vet dozens of times over this, and he has been able to get around for the last 2 years without pain, so they left the leg bent. The only alternative would be amputation. He does run on it, jump down from things on it. Oddly, he doesn't 'do' stairs - she carried him up and down. Carmen already has him going up and down with her 1/2 way up and down the stairs.

I tell ya though, I look into his eyes, and I just want to give him the chance to be a DOG. Ya know? To be IN our pack, not parallel to it. I won't keep him unless he can be IN our pack. That's not fair to my family or dogs. But I know it can be done, just don't know if I'm able to. So, like I said, if Humane Society won't help, I'll try, but no way I'm putting us in turmoil and also no way I'm letting the dog live such a nervous stress filled 'red zone' life, that's not fair to him either.

OH, also, the real good local trainer we have, she does a radio show, she has many employees, I saw a few had shelter dogs, I'm going to ask them if they would help me with this shelter dog free of charge given the situation. So, we'll see. I really would love to see him blossom for his sake, ya know? What an unfair life. Taken from his mom and sibs at 8 weeks and never got a chance to learn to be a dog, or learn even how to be a polite (nonbiting!) pet.

[mrsjerome]

Milli
What are you doing at the dog pound again? Don’t you have enough to do without bringing another one into your house (a biter at that). I think once these dogs start to bite it is very hard to train them out of that. Is he really biting or just playful nipping?
Sometimes these dogs are very jealous and want all the attention for themselves. It sounds like he was raised in a one dog owner household.
Your kids are a little older but if their would be a toddler around that might be another story.
I think you will have your hands full in trying to break him of this habit.
You are sure a women on a mission .For myself I am just content to go to my daughter’s house and play with her animals (she has 2 dogs and a cat) All get along real well together. The 80 lb. dog and the 4 lb. dog and the 12lb.cat
All these animals can be expensive too. She just dumped $400.00 at the vet for just the dogs checkups lab works heartworm flea control an antibiotic for the little one because it’s liver enzymes were low.
Does this new one look similar to your other dogs? Or do you just have a thing for Poodles?
Wishing you luck with your new addition.
Mrs J

[frogmama]

The animal shelter is not the toy store! You do not have to get something every time you go there!! At least that is what my husband tells me...:rolleyes:

Our schnauzer, Ernie, just spent 4 days at the vet hospital with pancreatitis. Scary and EXPENSIVE. He's home now and his usual self again - being our secondary doorbell warning, foot warmer and odd odor emanator. He was a puppy farm rescue (we got him at 5 months - unsold males are usually killed at 6 mos) and had never even touched grass. He had alot of issues!!!! He was afraid to walk outside, every loud noise scared him into a furry quivering ball and he snapped at anyone who touched his back legs (there were many more, but these are the ones that stick in my mind). For him, the only way to get past the fear reaction was to just get him in a calm state of mind and just DO the feared thing. For instance walks were "drags" at first until we started by Todd carrying him 2 or three houses away and then walking him back toward the house - he could see he was going home. Getting him to stop snapping was a little harder, pretty much Todd would have him sit next to him and hold his collar until he was calm and relaxed and then I would brush his back legs, stop when he snapped and wait for him to get calm again then brush again. He still jumps at loud noises, but he doesn't turn into a quivering mass of fraidy-dog.

Repetition, repetition, repetition!! Dogs only learn by doing, and you have to do it repeatedly to make it stick.

[callyflower]

Yes Mili--go to yahoo groups and type in "dog whisperer fans." You can join once you answer a few questions.

If you think there is a difference between an 8 and 80 pound red zone...well...I guess maybe the size of the bite???? It is still potentially traumatizing and dare I say life-threatening. The reason I say this is a member of a cat forum I post in was bitten by his stressed out cat a couple of weeks ago. He went to ER and was put on antibiotics, as cat bites (as are dog bites) are bacteria filled. Well, he's now in ICU, in critical condition as the antibiotic didn't agree with him and he now has pneumonia. All of this could have been prevented if he'd put the cat in a carrier as he knew he should... Small dogs can damage faces in the blink of an eye... Only you know if it's worth risking your children.

[GinaMarie]

http://k9deb.com/nilif.htm is a dog training site called Nothing in life is Free (NILIF). I've heard LOTS of good comments about it on Dogster site Im on. I've used some of it. So do we get to see pics? Any name picked out yet?

GM

[milivica]

The animal shelter is not the toy store!

BAAWAWAWAWAAA! Thank goodness my dh never heard that one or he'd use it on me all the time. And yes, repetition repetition repetition is right - this guy needs to practice being a dog. Just unsure if I'm the owner to do that - I know he is worth it and savable with the right experienced owner.

MrsJ., hee hee, nope I'm not on a mission at all - had they told me he was a biter I'd have never gotten him. And yes, I do have a thing for poodles, initially fueled by my unwillingness to vacuum up hair all over the house. Then it turned out the breed was a great match for us. I've had six poodle and poodle mixes over the last 20 years - seven if we are able to keep this one which I hope we can.

Cally, I hear you - I'd probably be telling you the same thing if the shoe were on the other foot. Plus I'd think you were nuts for even considering keeping a 'biter'. I had a better feel for him today, and today no bites and 'only' two tries. Should be zero tries I know. But a good 90% better than yesterday. Oh and best of all, he's finally interested in my dogs, aka, wanting to sniff their butts. But he's still too fearful to get close enough for a good long whiff. My dogs remain unimpressed by his antics, they walk away and ignore him.

Gina, since he is to the point of biting - even if it's out of fear or being spoiled or what ever, if I can't find a professional at Humane Society willing to guide me I don't think I can keep him. We all deserve a peaceful safe home, and he deserves the same. I sure don't want anything to happen between he and my dogs, what if he fear-bit one of them and they ganged up on him before I could intervene? He is just so darn smart though, when he understands what I want I have no problem getting him to listen. He even rings a bell to be let out, can you imagine? Such a cutie, loaded with potential. But the biting I can't deal with on my own, if he understood dog body language I could, but he doesn't. He really doesn't. Our other poodle growled at my kids a couple times at first when we got him then took a swipe at Vince, I did a dog version of "I am the boss and my kids are before you in the pack" and he never did it again. But this dog, unlike my other, doesn't understand dog language if you can believe that one. I don't want to screw him up worse than he is trying to play generic Cesar Milan, ya know?

[milivica]

Sooooo, mr. barkey von biter is giving me clues as to what to do.

He's a major sucker for a food bribe...so when I walk up to him when he's near my daughter (who he 'guards') despite the growls and lunges, I stand with a treat for him acting like I'm eating it, he immediately 'forgot' to guard my daughter, and begged for my food (which was actually his food treat). By the third time I approached, no growl or lunge but a wagging tail. Get it? It's like poodle ABA, people walk up to me when I'm by 'my' child and I get food...eventually people walking up = a good thing all the time. I want to program his brain that anyone approaching is GOOD.

He is in much closer physical proximity to my dogs than yesterday, all three walked in a row so well I took them an extra 1/2 mile, which, my large arse is very much in need of.

Pretty much, humane society and I agreed, that mr. 'thinks he's the king' will have to work for everything he gets. Example...when we got home from our walk, I walked in the door, then my dogs - but mr. bite the hand that feeds him beef and rice with gravy had to WAIT until I said "Ok!"

Same with dinner time, my alpha got his plate, then my other dog, then him...and he waited!!! I was very happy for him, that was great.

Believe me, I'm still not convinced the dog will stay, today I spoke to the behavior woman at humane society, apparently he was already returned for biting...wow thanks for telling me before I adopted him!!! But I'm going to work with her since she's willing to give me suggestions - if I can't make it work with him she would send him to a foster family she has in mind...she thinks part of the problem is my busy noisy house, and I agree, so now I almost feel selfish for keeping him. I look in his eyes, and it's like there's a dog in there. Ya know? But if we're not the right family to help that come out, I will let him go.

I was proud of dh tonight, it was so funny...he didn't know about my new and improved 'bribe' program, he went in to hug our daughter goodnight, the dog barked and cried but my husband continued hugging her, finally the dog started licking him like crazy on his bald head, hee hee.

Time will tell.

[milivica]

We got 95% of the biting under control, as well as the barking...he is the fastest learning dog I ever met. He is not a bit hard headed or stubborn. Just kind of scared and clueless.

However, another problem I hadn't foreseen...I was not given accurate medical information about this dog, or this dog's history. At first he seemed fine, I was assured he was fine, that he could physically do everything other dogs can do. That he didn't 'want' to do stairs and never had even before his leg was broken. This sweet dog cannot spend tons of time on it's right front leg, the break is not fully healed, he still has problems getting around. Now that he's getting used to and interested in my dogs, he hurts himself trying to keep up with them. We have a split level, and stairs off our deck to get to the yard. When he tried to go down, he fell :( :( :( .

He's finally looking to me for approval, he takes walks better than my dogs continually looking at me like "am I doing the right thing?". He's come so far in one short week, but due to his medical issues, and my fear he will bite a child whose parents will sue me to infinity, he did go back to Humane Society today. Something I planned with them, so they are fully aware of all his issues. They said either he will go to an owner that is fully informed of and able to help him with all his issues, or, to a foster family for more rehab with the biting issues. I feel so lousy giving him back, but it was not fair to him or us to keep him. It so so sucks. I've never given up on a critter before, just feels wrong. But when I kept thinking of him wanting to play with my dogs, and injuring himself over and over, well I did what I had to do.

[callyflower]

Wow---tough call. However, I'm 100% sure you did the right thing. In fact, when I clicked on this, I was hoping you'd say what you said (not about his pain, but you know...).

I think you need, in a few days, to compose a concise and polite letter to the humane society where you acquired him and discuss the fact that you were not given enough information pre-adoption. The fact that they let you adopt a known BITER is absolutely insane, IMO. Also, would it have killed them to get an x-ray and an opinion about the leg?

Anyway, take it easy on yourself. The next time (I sense there will BE a next time--LOL) you will be so much wiser when deciding if the fuzzball in the cage is the RIGHT one for you and your family.

[Keggy]

I am sure you did the right thing too. I went through something similar. I didn't want to send mine back and shortly after got sued (long story short) appeared on Judge Mills Lane (where he lost it), almost got lynched on live tv, his show got cancelled, and I got a few dozen offers to appear on tv... well lets just say no more dogs!!

At least you can still find another one who will fit in with your family better, and you sent him back before it was too late.

[milivica]

Cally, yeah I know I did the right thing too. When I reminded myself it was also the right thing for the dog, it gave me the extra boost to actually return him. I created a long write up, on everything about the dog, the good and the bad (biting) but emphasized what an extremely quick learner he is, and, he is not a bit hard headed. He was a biter because that's how he got his way (like many small dogs). Make him understand what you want, and poof he does it the first time.

Keg, yeah I remember you telling me about all that court stuff. I remember how ridiculous it was, the 'gang' mentality you dealt with there.

I had a LONG talk with Humane Society when I returned him, detailed exactly what he needed, and made sure they had his medical issues straight. They then realized they hadn't given me all his paperwork (yeesh). He can run like the wind, he can use his paw, but, not for long periods and not for stairs. So, every time he tried to join in with my dogs who run around like lunatics having fun, he hurt himself. He needs a quieter home with no stairs, no kids, no other dogs, and practice being a dog instead of a 'king' and he will honest to God be the best dog ever. Also he needs socializing with other dogs, but 24/7 is a little too much for him. He did manage to pal up with the tortoise though, hee hee. I was able to 'let go' when I could determine what the biting was about, so I could feel comfortable that he would get in the home that was right for him, that he wouldn't be put down. Seems since none of his bites broke the skin they called it 'nipping' and said he might go to fostering before adoption. Anyhow, I'm so 'idealistic' and mushy about this stuff, I was amazed I did the logical thing instead of the happily every after (for everyone but mom) thing, and gave him back. Ya know?

I dunno if he's on the site now, I'm about to go look, but his name is Cocoa and he's on www.giveshelter.org which I'll be checking several times a day to see when he gets adopted (or fostered). He's so pitiful looking, you'll see why I feel so for him, he's a wonderful dog, just confused about his role in the family, and sadly a big liability to me when I have kids and kids coming over all the time.