I need expert advice from you Mothers out there...

[megansmom]

How can you determine if a behavior from your autisic child is do to the autism itself or your child just being a 7 year old. Megan's behavior is getting really out of hand, she is biting, pinching and hitting her teachers/aides at school and at home, especially with her sister. We have many other issues with her but this is on top of the list. Time outs are no longer effective with her. When she does these acts she laughs when she is doing it and when she gets disiplined for doing it. I called her pedi and he referred my to psychology where we were considering possibly putting her on a medication. I met with them this week, filled out all the paperwork and they called me later that day and decided to send us to a 1-1/2 hour autism class at the clinic. I am furious by this and I cannot tell you how many behavior classes I have been to. I know that you don't know my daughter but do you feel this is autistic behavior that we can somehow control? I just don't know what to do next. I make the phone calls for help but it doesn't seem to work out.

Any advice would be great, thank you

Tracy

[LIZARD]

I met with them this week, filled out all the paperwork and they called me later that day and decided to send us to a 1-1/2 hour autism class at the clinic. I am furious by this and I cannot tell you how many behavior classes I have been to.

Did you ask how they thought the class would help? Maybe there are specific behavioral management tecniques or communication ideas they had in mind. I know it sounds insulting, especially this late after her dx, but there might actually be something useful.

Go ahead and go, and be sure to ask how to deal with this specific issue. It may require med, but they might also have some methods to help alleviate this aggressive behavior.


*hug and good luck!

LIZARD :)

[wallyw1]

Hello, Tracy--So sorry that Megan is having these behaviors. Behavior is a form of communication. Are her teeth ok, is she on seizure meds that may be causing some sort of sensation or gum overgrowth? Having a talk with Wally (mostly while riding in the car where I had a captive audience and didn't expect anything from him) about what I saw and my feelings of sadness because I wasn't understanding what was going on or how I could help him and telling him how I wish I could make things better for him, seemed to help him feel not so alone. God Bless and I hope things get better soon.

[Keggy]

I don't think you should discriminate between autistic behaviors and that of a typical child. I don't beleive in time out, or punishment. I don't think it should be used with any child.... as I don't see it as being effective.

I agree with Wallysmom, this behavior is a form of communication.

I think you can change your childs behavior (as we all can) by changing our behavior, or our ideas about their behavior. I don't have time to post much, but it basically boils down to taking a accepting, patient, loving approach to behavior. This is not to say you are not loving or accepting, but some approaches we are told to use like (time out and punishment) can be felt like the opposite to the child. I find that most behavior issues are due to some frustration and/or lack of communication. Think about it, is your child just pure evil or is there something else going on? I hope you chose something else!

Being we parents are the ones with the smarts, wisdom or whatever, why are we expecting a child who we know has issues be able to learn to do as we wish? We should know how to alter our own perceptions and behavior to get them to want to do as we want. This can be done. It mostly takes a paradigm shift.

I have told this story b4, I will tell it again real quick so you get the gist. A client in a psych setting was having a full scale psychiatric emergency. This is a person who is dangerous, psychotic the whole package. A code is called and a team is trying to calm the patient down, give him a shot. Suddenly one of the nurses who is trying to control the client yells that the diamond is missing from her engagement ring. Everyone stops, including the client, and gets down on all fours looking for the stone. Code over.

That story tells you that maybe if everyone had taken a step back and shifted their perspective of the situation that code wouldn't have gone as far as it did. And, if that nurse hadn't lost her diamond, the patient would have been restrained and had numerous consequences to deal with, along with the staff having to deal with. There was a shift in perspective, and that shift changed the final outcome dramatically.

I have done this myself many times, it works well. Learning to understand my reaction to behaviors is so much more useful than trying to change someone elses behavior. Stop and take note of what is going on. Step into your childs shoes and see the world from her perpective, it will make a world of difference in how things are approached and will ultimately change her behavior.

I am not one for medication, it masks the real issues and opens the door to other issues.
As for behavior classes, I also don't think that just because someone teaches it, that it has to be good.

[AKF]

I often see my son using inappropriate behaviors as a way of getting my attention. He isn't aggressive toward others anymore but was when he was younger. Usually just his younger brother. He would do the same thing; laugh while he was hitting him and also when I punished him. Maybe an increase in positive attention from you would help alleviate the behaviors. How old is the younger? can she fend for herself? Keith really quit picking on Kevin when he found out that Kevin could and would hit back and hurt him!!

[peglem]

You need to find out when this is happening at school- try to get at why she is doing it. Is she having a tough time getting the staff to understand her? Is it a sure fire way to get them to pay attention to her? If you can find out why, you can find other ways for her to meet those same ends.

[Mayzoo]

Since all I can add is: "gee I can relate" *ack We are dealing with different situations, but the MO is the same. I have a just turned 6 year old that throws everything in her room that is not tied down against the walls. It starts at about 2am and lasts for up to four or so hours.....when she can't though things she just kicks the walls/doors. I have tried the ignore it philosophy, and found this can last for 4 hours. I take her toys away and make her earn them back----she gets a real kick out of "helping me clear out her room" laughs the whole time. She is not doing it to get me to go in there, but she does get an extra charge out me going in there if I am upset, raise my voice or take her toys away. If I don't go in there she is almost just as happy....she giggles through all the throwing and smashing and kicking.

The bonus here is she is a very happy kid not doing these things to be destructive.....she is self stemming--I just have little to no idea how to stop it :eek:. So I am grateful these fits are not out of anger.

So, add me into your group of the intelligent parents standing around going......."huh?!?!?!?!"

[megansmom]

Just wanted to thank everyone for there responses. Wow May I'm speechless, sounds about the same here too, it's like they are getting a high from doing it. Maybe you should get her an enclosed bouncer and let her through things in there... lol

Tracy

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Keggy, I haven't read that story before...but I find it interesting in SO many ways...

Mostly though, because DH & I learned early on to squelch Coley's outbursts and tantrums with "distraction" and "diversion"...we are being told now that this is how he learned his current M.O. And that we need to be DIRECT and abrupt...so we are...and we deal with a lot of head banging (not literally).

We managed to get through the day using "our methods" without a lot of issues...but it was also the case that mush of what he did was not deliberate, if that makes sense. Like he didn't really learn how to calm himself down on his own when he got upset because he never really went through that process, instead he was distracted out of being upset.

But without getting too much off subject here....I gotta say I understand what Tracy is saying...because you make an assumption that an autistic tendency is uncontrollable, but a childhood phase needs to be attended to. That's not to say that you shouldn't make efforts to help manage autistic tendencies...but it would help to know which you are dealing with to know where to draw the line or how to approach it.

Plus this is the crux of him going into regular ed versus staying in spec-ed next year...because even school is having a hard time with him learning how to do things the 'right-way' ...according to his skill level...ie: asking for help versus having a meltdown for attention...

So when faced with the melt-down...should we focus on the reason he 'communicated' the need for assistance or should we focus on the fact that he didn't communicate his need to the best of his ability?

I think in some cases you really would want to know the difference...

Because if we give him what he wants, and he was intentionally acting out, then it reinforces the fact that he gets what he wants when he pulls a fire alarm, versus using his words in an appropriate way, ya know? but if he's communiating to the best of his ability...then all we want to do is help him communicate better, but also give him what he wants, right?

[peglem]

From Kristen:Because if we give him what he wants, and he was intentionally acting out, then it reinforces the fact that he gets what he wants when he pulls a fire alarm, versus using his words in an appropriate way, ya know? but if he's communiating to the best of his ability...then all we want to do is help him communicate better, but also give him what he wants, right?


Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but, I don't think it matters whether he is intentionally acting out or not. Giving what is wanted following innappropriate behavior, reinforces that behavior. Teaching appropriate requesting means withholding the wanted thing until it has been requested appropriately. -not that I always do this-but I should.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Yes, I think you are right.

But let's say for argument sake (given Coley's communication skills) that when he gets super frustrated he can't 'find his words'...then in that situation we'd of course want to encourage a 'better' way to communicate and work with him on that, and then give him what he asked for (given his inability to communicate so effectively).

versus, knowing it's all an act, as in the squeaky wheel approach. Then I wouldn't even give him what he wants until he acted appropriately.

If it's beyond his control, I wouldn't punish him for 'intentially' acting out...

When he freaks out, initially we don't know why, so we come a running...when we get there...if it was all a ploy to get us away from Audrey or whatever we were doing...as far as I'm concerned that deserves a punishment or some sort of negative reinforcement...like having the ploy fail.

But if it's real then we could spend a little time with him helping him through his frustration first...I'm not sure I'm explaining well...I wouldn't just give in to him, but he would get my attention...if I knew that it was an urgency for HIM...because his frustration level brought him out of control...

hopefully that made sense? But of course, sense or not...the approach could still be wrong...or not the most effective...

[megansmom]

Thank you Kristen for that post. I wasn't sure how to put the words together about Keggy's post, I think you did a good job responding to it than I could have, in return you helped me throw out there a very difficult question with a logical response that makes sense.

Thank you... Tracy

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Glad I could help...but I'm still curious as to what others think...after all I've got the kid with the negotiation skills from he!!...so I am SO willing to accept that I've got my head up my butt on this one!

But I do know precisely what & why you asked your question...and sounds like we aren't alone.

Keggy? Pegs? Mili? Anyone...HELP!

[peglem]

Well, I agree with Keggy that punishment doesn't work, so even if it is intentional behavior the idea is to help the child modify it. The danger lies in reinforcing highly inappropriate behavior even if it is something the child couldn't help. These are smart kids and if they see an advantage in behavior-they'll use it-intentionally next time. My problem is how to not reinforce behaviors that cannot be ignored. Allie has learned (unintentional behavior the 1st time) that we will never ignore her banging her head on the livingroom window. She can't call out-so she uses that when she wants us in there NOW. Also, when she's in the bathroom, she bangs her head to call us in there. She "accidently" came upon these behaviors but once she found how functional they are for her- very difficult to change them. Frequently, her SIBs are more like seizure episodes- they grab hold of her and serve no communicative purpose. Those we help her through, but how to help her get control or find a substitute behavior...challenging, very challenging.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

But I think there is a big difference in dangerous behavior. I agree, you NEED to get to her to stop the behavior...no matter what. No argument there.

Let's see if I can give you an Allie scenario. And I'm not arguing, I think we are just talking apples/oranges...or something.

Ok, so say Allie brings you the balloons and a pen and wants to play with them with you (and does this often enough that you know she understands how to communicate her desire to play). In my book, that's FANTASTIC communication. And I'd play ALL day if she wanted too!

Now, let's say you are making dinner or something and suddenly she's screaming her head off in the other room. You go running and she stops and hands you the balloons and the pen.

Now you've got to decide how to handle it. Of course you are glad that she communicated her 'want'...but you also know that she can do better. But why did she chose that method this time???? Was it because she didn't feel like going into the kitchen...too lazy or whatever...or was there something more...

If I was sure that it was all about being spoiled and taking advantage of the 'fire-drill' approach. I'd maybe get her to come into the kitchen to help you finish what you were doing FIRST, and wait until she asked to play in a more appropriate way. If she didn't ask appropriately, the way that she has already learned, I wouldn't bring it up. Therefore reinforcing the idea that if you don't ask correclty you don't get.

Not so much a punishment...like I wouldn't give her a time out or something for screaming...I just wouldn't give her what SHE wanted, unless I felt that her screaming was the best mode of communication that she could muster.

In that case I would stop the dinner, work with her until she asked appropriately, then play with her...and dinner would be delayed.

[peglem]

Well, 1st of all- Allie wouldn't scream her head off! But, I believe your point is what to do when an inappropriate behavior is coupled with an appropriate request. Here's what I should do (and mostly do): Totally focus on the appropriate... "Wow, Allie, thanks for asking nicely. What would you like me to draw?" This reinforces the appropriate, and since it was successful, she's likely to repeat that behavior. If I said next time you don't have to scream- then she sees the screaming and the asking as coupled. I just want her to understand the asking nicely is what worked- screaming I can ignore-its annoying, but not dangerous.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well I tried, I knew I wouldn't be able to come up with a totally good example...

And I TOTALLY hear you on the dangerous part...I get that, but I think Tracy's question was about behaviors that are difficult to distinguish between 'kid' behaviors and 'autistic difficuties'...like tantruming.

Certainly out of control frustration is hard to separate from tantruming...so from that perspective I think we are talking apples & oranges.

Like, I would never ignore injury, whereas I would ignore tantruming, ya know? But I've also learned that tantruming can spiral out of control for us...so it's really hard to figure out where the line is.

And I'm not so sure it's always coupled with appropriate actions of some type...like take Coley's eating difficulties for example.

We are having dinner, but he can not sit still. He doesn't eat, and he becomes disruptive.

So I can't figure out if he is mostly or even totally just acting out so that he gets attention...a TOTALLY 'kid' thing...competing for attention. Or if it has more to do with his eating challenges.

I have tried every friggin thing I can and I just can't seem to find anything that works...except removing the disruption so that me, DH & Audrey can eat. Because nothing I do actually gets him to settle down & eat, so the best possible scenario I have come up with is at least making it possible for the rest of us to eat...at times none of us can.

So what the heck is that? Do I need to focus more on him, and feed him like a baby because he NEEDS that, or if I do that am I reinforcing that if he acts like a toddler he can divert attention onto him?

We have spent TONS of time reinforcing the good...even if it's minimal. I took the fork filled it up and put it in his mouth...and good job for chewing & swallowing it...etc. I'm REALLY starting to believe that this is backfiring on us though...like that we have such low expectations that we think him just complying with being fed like a baby is good enough...and that it's starting to affect his self-esteem.

I swear all I do is second guess every thing we do. If I just knew if it was a game or if his focus or impulses were out of control, then I'd feel more confident about how to handle the situation. If it were a game....I shut it down! If it's all about focus...I'd have more patience...if it's about impulses or sensory...then I'd 'work' on it.

And I swear we've approached in all ways...but nothing seems to improve it!

Ok, half venting...but I think that this is the type of thing that Tracy was describing...

[peglem]

Well, didn't mean to sidetrack from the original post, but I think the discussion is valid, anyway. And I do think Keggy is right- it doesn't matter if the behavior is intentional or not- don't reinforce it. As long as you don't punish for it, which I don't think works for NT kids, either. In both situations, (regular tantrum or can't help it tantrum) you attempt to teach appropriate behavior to replace inappropriate.

I no longer try to get Allie to eat with us. I'm not saying I'm right at all, because I don't know if I am- I just know its saner this way. She eats whenever she wants to and if that means me feeding her, that's what I do...if she's hungry(whether she knows it or not) everything falls apart=cognitively, behaviorally, autistically. I don't impose any social boundaries on it. If she doesn't want what we're having for dinner, I make her something that I know she will eat. I know this is forming bad habits- but man the eating issues from infancy...scary stuff. And still...she's losing weight.

I think the biggest challenge I have is figuring out what behavior means. I don't know what to teach as an appropriate substitute behavior if I don't know what her goal was. And this is where I think the autism thing comes in- when there doesn't seem to be a cause or reason behind the "tantrum" It just happens to her and can't be ignored, because it won't go away on its own. She is gripped with fear and I don't know how to teach her to deal with these episodes. Throw in the OCD stuff- where she doesn't even know why she's compelled to do an action that makes no sense...even when she doesn't really want to do it. I'm trying to just work on: "if its making you upset, do something else."

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I dunno, I guess I'm not explaining things right, or maybe our definitions of 'reinforcement' and 'punishment' and 'discourage' are different.

I don't punish Coley, at least not in the sense that I got punished as a kid. I do give him time outs when he's emotionally out of control at times. To the point where he is just so hyped up that there is nothing we can say or do to change that. And it works for him. It cools him down and he will come back 'when he is ready' not when I tell him it's over or whatever. This is how I use time outs.

I do try to discourage inappropriate behavior by not giving ANY type of positive reinforcement. And we do discuss it, generally later when the heat of the moment has gone and he can actually talk about it without getting emotionally charged again.

And whenever possible, potentially too much, I do reinforce his 'well dones' whether that is behavior or skill or helpfulness or whatever. I try really hard not to say things like good job constantly, so that I'm giving him good constructive reinforcements.

I wasn't at all implying that you were sidetracking the original discussion...just that there is a difference in the way you approach a self-injurious situation and a temper tantrum. Even if the self injury IS a form of tantrum...you still can't ignore it...as in 'ignore bad behavior reward good.'

And that I think is the WHOLE point here. That depending on what the reason is, you approach it differnently.

And oh, Coley can and does tell us things like "Mommy I need some of your time." And when he does this I thank him for telling me in such a big-boy way, and then ask him what he would like to do...and then we do it! If he's freaking out acting like a toddler to get attention during dinner when he has this ability to express his need for attention...then YES, I think we absolutley should approach the behavior differently than if he's having a ligit issue with frustration. I mean, so I take a couple seconds to tell him that his communication method was lousy, but then go a head and give him my time...ahhhh, he's getting reinforcement that way, right?

Course I have to revert back to my previous point...that I clearly don't have it figured out correctly, because I'm often tearing the hair out of my head...but I just can't see me encouraging his terrible behavior at dinner time by 'indulging' him in anyway!

That makes about as much sense to me as me babying DH if he came home in a bad mood and took it out on us...I nip that in the bud too! Come right out and ask if he had a bad day...then tell him if he wants the rest of his day to be crummy that he should go out to the garage or something away from us...otherwise change his attitude & we can all enjoy our evening! That's the appraoch I take with Coley...if he doesn't want to have a nice dinner, then leave us alone so that we can! --sometimes.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I just rushed through that reply cuz Audrey was getting hungry, while I was prepping I felt like I left the wrong impression...

I wanted to just be clear that I don't bark at Coley, or DH. I ask them both nicely to behave...

With DH he also gets pretty grouchy when he's hungry...so generally when I ask him if he's hungry, he knows it's equivalent to saying that he's acting grouchy...and he stops and gets a snack or has lunch or whatever... Same with me asking if he's had a bad day...sometimes he'll snap back...which means he needs to vent, and when I tell him to go away then...he knows and will go rake or something to vent...he knows, particularly with Coley that if he doesn't have the right frame of mind or attitude that it won't take much for the whole house to get crazy... And sometimes he has to tell me the same thing...go for a walk or whatever...everyone can use a time out sometimes... I don't at all consider that punishment, and NEVER imply that it is...

When Coley's behavior is so disruptive that no one can eat, then I make him aware of it. If he continues I warn him that he will be getting a time out...sometimes this stops him, if it winds him up more, he goes to his room. Sometimes he comes back and says he's ready to eat (but that doesn't necessarily mean he sits and eats, just means his behavior is better), other times he skips dinner all together. But we will take it back out when he says he wants a snack later.

[peglem]

from Kristen:I mean, so I take a couple seconds to tell him that his communication method was lousy, but then go a head and give him my time...ahhhh, he's getting reinforcement that way, right?


Probably.

I'm not looking to indict anyone on the way they handle behaviors. I obviously don't have all the answers and sure make my share of blunders.

I don't punish Coley, at least not in the sense that I got punished as a kid. I do give him time outs when he's emotionally out of control at times. To the point where he is just so hyped up that there is nothing we can say or do to change that. And it works for him. It cools him down and he will come back 'when he is ready' not when I tell him it's over or whatever. This is how I use time outs.

Don't really think we disagree here- teaching a child to take a step back and deal with things when you're calmer is great. And, most importantly, it works...so use it!

I do try to discourage inappropriate behavior by not giving ANY type of positive reinforcement.

Take out the word positive and that's terrific. I think any attention to inappropriate behavior is potentially reinforcing...and that's where I usually make my mistakes. It seems like I have to say not this way..that way. But, if the IB (I'm tired of writing out inappropriate behavior) is what Allie perceives as the thing that got my attention in the 1st place, I'm teaching her to repeat it, because it was successful- even though my intention is to do the opposite.

just that there is a difference in the way you approach a self-injurious situation and a temper tantrum. Even if the self injury IS a form of tantrum...you still can't ignore it...as in 'ignore bad behavior reward good.'

Yes, and that's quite a conundrum...you can't not reinforce. That's the crux of my problem with Allie. I know I'm reinforcing, I just don't see what else I can do. Yet, I hope if I keep reinforcing appropriate and bolster her communication skills...maybe she can get beyond it. If she can learn to deal before it gets to the point of no return...I think she'd actually prefer that.

Course I have to revert back to my previous point...that I clearly don't have it figured out correctly, because I'm often tearing the hair out of my head...but I just can't see me encouraging his terrible behavior at dinner time by 'indulging' him in anyway!


Of course. You have to do what works for you. I only told you what I do. Clearly do not know if I'm doing the right thing...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

ok, thanks for doing that Pegs, I think we approach things the similarly - and agree for the most part, but somehow we are having a bit of a communication gap or something.

So now I want to go back to Keggy's point, and how it fits into this whole discussion...

And I think your dilemma is in general the same as mine & Tracy's, it's just different behavior...which I don't mena to slight at all, because I know it's a MUCH trickier dilemma.

How do you identify, and therefore react appropriately to behavior that is manipulating, versus uncontrolled?

Clearly, uncontrollable urges, whether they are self injury, emotional, disruptive or distructive should be stopped and then councelled in some way when appropriate to do so...whether that is by reinforcing appropriate behavior or having a conversation...that I think we all agree.

But when there is manipulative behavior it should be approached differently... whatever that be in the specific case...of course injury is the toughest because it still needs to be stopped, but should probably be somehow reacted to differently than an uncontrollable urge... so, how? that's hard for sure!!!! But clearly a different level of issue than an outburst of some kind.

But the problem is...how do you know which is which...that was Tracy's question...

Can you tell with Allie? I can guess with Coley, but somehow I'm not getting the reaction I would expect when I say..."you're busted, I know it was all an act...how about being a big-boy and just asking for what you want using your words" maybe not exactly like that, but with that sorta approach...so then I question whether it was infact manipulative...ugh!

But with the teachers having the same 'idea' about some of his behaviors, I just feel like he's gotta be working us over...

And besides that, how is it that at times he can be so good about telling us what he needs/wants, but terrible at it at other times?

And here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush...
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_135.gif

[peglem]

from Kristen:Clearly, uncontrollable urges, whether they are self injury, emotional, disruptive or distructive should be stopped and then councelled in some way when appropriate to do so...whether that is by reinforcing appropriate behavior or having a conversation...that I think we all agree.

Now, see, I'm not so sure about some of that. SIB, definitely stopped-maybe talked about later. But, if its really uncontrollable, wouldn't that be like trying to stop a sneeze? Emotional outbursts...maybe stopped (they usually result in one of the other 3)- redirected somehow? Disruptive behavior-I see no way to stop it, other than ignoring it and nourishing appropriate until it grows bigger and crowds out the disruptive behavior. Hmmm...destructive behavior...with my nt kids, they had to fix it or pay restitution. With Allie, disruption is possibly the only one of those that occurs w/o SIBs, so I'm out of my element and SIBs are my #1 priority. I think the uncontrollable stuff needs self-regulation before the child can bring it under control. I think demanding contol of uncontrollable urges just adds to the frustration and anxiety.

But the problem is...how do you know which is which...that was Tracy's question...

Can you tell with Allie? I can guess with Coley, but somehow I'm not getting the reaction I would expect when I say..."you're busted, I know it was all an act...how about being a big-boy and just asking for what you want using your words" maybe not exactly like that, but with that sorta approach...so then I question whether it was infact manipulative...ugh!

Sometimes I can tell with Allie. But manipulative behavior is usually just a way for her to try to get something that she wants. If I address that (if I know what it is-that's getting better), it does reinforce the manipulative behavior, but it also stops it. The only real example I can think of is when she wants to go to the store...if I arrange a time for that she's satisfied. I don't think her manipulation is to the degree that Coley's is AND I think kids learn manipulative behavior from the adults who are always trying to manipulate them....not entirely a bad thing. Where does it cross the line from acceptable to unacceptable? I sure don't know. So, with my nt kids, they usually get a bit manipulative if they want something that they think I'm gonna object to- So, I just ask what they want....

And besides that, how is it that at times he can be so good about telling us what he needs/wants, but terrible at it at other times?

Possibly fluctuations in health, tiredness, etc. We all have times when we're not as good as we could be.

[megansmom]

wow you two... im speechless. This just proves that we all have differences in handling our children and their behaviors. The best answer that I can give after everything that I have read so far is to just keep trying different things and hope that one of them works out!

Tracy

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Oh you are right...I think a better word would have been 'intervention' versus stopped...as in immediately dealt with versus letting a tantrum play out.

Yeah, and I guess I can see too that sometimes any communication is better than none, so manipulation in that respect is good...

I dunno, we just had another HORRIBLE dinner with Coley so I just feel like a big idiot on the entire subject!

He had no dinner last night, chose to go without a snack instead of eating his dinner before bed. Had 2 sausages for breakfast this morning, a banana for snack at school, I helped him drink about 6oz of milk after school, he had 2 bites of mac & cheese for lunch and now didn't eat dinner again!

He's kinda out of it...and he seems to be coming down with a cold...which makes me think he NEEDS even more so to eat...but I can't be chasing him around and all...when I leave him alone (like with lunch) he just plane doesn't do it. When I help him the behavior gets ridiculous, it's like he feeds off the attention.

DH flew off the handle and put him in his room. He's there now & it's quiet. His dinner has been put away.

I'm at a complete loss.

[RathyKay]

Interesting! No advice. Just wanted to say that Tom is getting over a cold and isn't eating much either. Although, I kind of wonder if the warmer weather is playing into it, too? Regardless, I think we have Tom's diet to a good stage that I'm not as concerned with how much he's eating. (But, he's eating more than Coley.)

[Isabelle]

I don't think you should discriminate between autistic behaviors and that of a typical child. I don't beleive in time out, or punishment. I don't think it should be used with any child.... as I don't see it as being effective.

I agree with Wallysmom, this behavior is a form of communication.

I think you can change your childs behavior (as we all can) by changing our behavior, or our ideas about their behavior. I don't have time to post much, but it basically boils down to taking a accepting, patient, loving approach to behavior. This is not to say you are not loving or accepting, but some approaches we are told to use like (time out and punishment) can be felt like the opposite to the child. I find that most behavior issues are due to some frustration and/or lack of communication. Think about it, is your child just pure evil or is there something else going on? I hope you chose something else!

Being we parents are the ones with the smarts, wisdom or whatever, why are we expecting a child who we know has issues be able to learn to do as we wish? We should know how to alter our own perceptions and behavior to get them to want to do as we want. This can be done. It mostly takes a paradigm shift.

I have told this story b4, I will tell it again real quick so you get the gist. A client in a psych setting was having a full scale psychiatric emergency. This is a person who is dangerous, psychotic the whole package. A code is called and a team is trying to calm the patient down, give him a shot. Suddenly one of the nurses who is trying to control the client yells that the diamond is missing from her engagement ring. Everyone stops, including the client, and gets down on all fours looking for the stone. Code over.

That story tells you that maybe if everyone had taken a step back and shifted their perspective of the situation that code wouldn't have gone as far as it did. And, if that nurse hadn't lost her diamond, the patient would have been restrained and had numerous consequences to deal with, along with the staff having to deal with. There was a shift in perspective, and that shift changed the final outcome dramatically.

I have done this myself many times, it works well. Learning to understand my reaction to behaviors is so much more useful than trying to change someone elses behavior. Stop and take note of what is going on. Step into your childs shoes and see the world from her perpective, it will make a world of difference in how things are approached and will ultimately change her behavior.

I am not one for medication, it masks the real issues and opens the door to other issues.
As for behavior classes, I also don't think that just because someone teaches it, that it has to be good.

oh, yes, the missing diamond, i used that technique: 'diversion, distraction'...excellent! keeping one's cool is a way to teach the child to control their emotions.
about meds, you are absolutely right! and if the child is on seizure medication there is a strong chance that these drugs could change his behaviour making her aggressive, impulsive....making her looks bipolar.

[Keggy]

I only skimmed the posts but from what I see, I have to give Peglem a thunderous applause, she covered what I was thinking! I may have missed a few beats because I don't have enough time to read everything, but I saw this...
"How do you identify, and therefore react appropriately to behavior that is manipulating, versus uncontrolled?"

The key is to stop reacting!!! dosn't matter if it is manipulative or uncontrolled. The only way to change your childs behavior is to change your behavior, he is modeling what he learns. It may not seem like your behavior or you families, but it is... just in a more primative state. You need to become the zen mom, who is calm, cool, collected and most importantly very fair. Your behavior with your son is much more critical then anyone elses, so just worry about what you are doing for the moment.

This change that you will have to make may be difficult. But that should help you see how hard it is for a child to change their behavior just because we command it to happen. What you need to do is to look at a behavior and see how you could have responded differently and more importantly, what you could have done different that may have prevented the whole event from happening to begin with.

Before anyone says this does not apply to our kids just stop... it applies to our kids more than any others. Many of us see that our kids have this static, rule bound, strong sense of justice and fairness going on. That is what leads to these unwanted behaviors.

Take the child who can not use speech to communicate. He is in the supermarket with you riding along nicely in the shopping cart when suddenly he goes full scale balistic when he sees candy at the check out line. In his mind he has been a great kid for the past hour as you shopped and now there is this one little thing he wants and feels very much entitled too.

If you just bought the kid the candy when he first asked what would it have done? Suppose the kid has seen the candy a few dozen times and the mom never bought it, how is he going to react when he sees it? If she bought it, it would make him happy for the moment, teach him that mom rewards his good behavior, that life is fun... etc.

I went thought this with my dd, after just doing it a few times I realized it was all about the wrapper, she rarely asked for the candy once we got out of the store. And, my dd is slim w/ no cavities at 18.

That is just one example though, I didn't get my dd through her childhood by bribing her with candy. But I did end many negative behavior issues by looking at them different. It is about taking a step to the side and viewing things differently.

How important is it to change the behavior? Is it about you, about how you will look to others? With my dd there are some negative behaviors (like her messy room) that I have had to take an approach that I don't even like. I realize she does not have to be perfect, and having a messy room. She also views me as a very fair parent, she has never been asked to do anything "because I said so".

Is it about sharing a toy? I see parents do this all the time. A child has to share their beloved toy with a sibling, or stranger. Why do they have to do that? yes they can and will share other things, but don't ask them to share something they feel strongly about. I am sure you wouldn't want to share your new jaguar with your neighbor either, why should they have to share their prized posession?

You have to give your child a tremendous amount of respect if you want them to respect you. If they respect you they will behave.

If you do something that would alter their behavior think about whether you would do that to someone elses child, or an adult. People tend to think of their kids more as "their kids" then people with individual identities.

[Keggy]

kk went back and saw something that was troubling. You think your children are being manipulative, but you know what... don't let that affect how you react. Manipulation is a skill, we don't want them to master it, but it is something they need to know.
Plus, when you are wrong and it turns out they weren't doing that you will feel crappy.

I need an example of a behavior that could be "uncontrollable urge" vs. manipulative and how you would react differently if you knew what was what.

[Mayzoo]

My husband does not do the research I do, so he does not understand these concepts quite the way I am trying to understand them (heck I barely feel like I have a gleaning of what is going on), but I describe the reasoning behind our daughter's behavior (well only some of her behavior) to him with the analogy of pica...yup the food compulsion. It is a loose analogy....so not accurate in many ways.

I try to supply an alternate to the behavior she has that is appropriate, since she figure she is getting something she needs from the specific stemming behavior.

One day at a time.

[Keggy]

Mayzoo, that is what I attept to do with some of my clients. When you are replacing an unwanted behavior with one more suitable it is sublimation, a defense mechanism. For example, a person who is punching other people for the joy of punching, can punch clay instead.

I like how you compare it to Pica. But I think the stimming behavior you speak of is more controllable than a PICA because you can sublimate it. Pica (I feel) is more like an addiction to nicotine, where you have that awful craving due to some chemical not being produced and missing from your brain.
I think the behavior (non pica) is more about the ego taking over, and doing something for its own gratification.
If you can find a more appropriate activity and the adults and the ego is cool with it you have progress!
You should read "A new Earth" it talks all about the ego and it is a freaking amazing book.