Reward Charts

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I'm admitting defeat on this one!

I understand the whole concept of how these things are good. I'm not debating that at all...just that I think giving rewards for things like brushing teeth and eating meals is ridiculous! I feel like starting something like this will lead to giving rewards for other things later on, like homework...where the grade itself should be the reward, right???

Ok, so maybe I'm niave when it comes to this stuff, go a head and tell me that if you think...I joke to my husband that if we start down this road we'll be giving him gas money when he's 17 if he goes all day without having an accident. Course I'm exaggerating, I know...but I just think there is a diving line between a deed that deserves a prize and one that is just expected normal behavior that goes along with life...

My HOPE is that I can get him to do the following:
-brush his teeth,
-eat his meals (within a reasonable time period),
-dress himself,
-start working toward no overnight accidents
-pick up after himself

all of which he is ABSOLUTELY capable of but I find myself nagging & naggin & nagging...I'm tired of hearing myself!

But I'm hoping that once we get past these antics, that we can actually work on things that I'd find a bit more appropriate for a reward chart, like chores.

Ok, so with all that said, I'm googling today to find a dang chart. I've come across a couple but as usual can't seem to decide. Does anyone have any advice on the matter? Any products you've used... Or did you make one yourself (how'd you do that)?

These are the 2 that seem the most appropriate:
http://www.amazon.com/Melissa-Doug-Deluxe-Magnetic-Responsibility/dp/B000NTZL7U/ref=pd_sbs_t_title_1

http://www.amazon.com/I-Can-Do-Reward-Chart/dp/B000JCUQ6W/ref=pd_sim_t_img_5

What do you think of all this????

Thanks, KJ

[Keggy]

The reward chart is not the only elment you need to make this successful. Do yourself a favor and take one issue at a time.

Lets start with brushing teeth, since that should be top priority. Is there something that he likes, a character, event or something (like race cars or something?) its best to incorporate a theme.
2nd key to success, make the chart yourself. You could do something creative like make a chart with each time you want him to brush in a week, and each time he brushes his teeth he gets to add a smily mouth sticker or picture or something to that day/ time.

Personally, I think if he is really reistant to brushing his teeth you will have to go lower on the schedule of rewards to get that to work. Do you know the schedule or rewards .. cmpatsi? The first letter "c" is consumable, the first level of rewards. An example of consumable would be giving him one m&m after brushing his teeth. The consumable must be a item you eat, that he really loves, that he gets no other time except when he meets an expectation. Tough to do, because grandmothers and others give in, but it works. ANd, yes it is ok to give him an m&m after brushing his teeth, its just one and sugar breaks down better than fruit in the mouth.
But for me, I would do an m&m (or some other appropriate delight) and a smiley face on the chart. If the chart works alone, you are set, skip the m&m.

Some moms just don't get this and offer the kid a healthy reward, that the kid could care less about... dosn't work.

I got my daughter to use the potty by using "hugs" those choclate kisses called hugs. She loved them. I also did not let her brush her teeth on her own till she was way older. The teeth are so vital to the health of the child, didn't seem worth the risk. At 18 she still has never gotten a cavity (knock wood).

Also, if you can afford to get a coating or two on his back teeth... worth it. It cost me 25 dollars a tooth and I got two teeth covered. The back teeth are the first to get cavities, so just get them covered!!

[Keggy]

By the way, the idea is to build them up to the intrinsic rewards. It will happen, but you have to take it step by step.

People make these charts to make money. They are no more effective than the ones you make yourself. I think the ones you make yourself would be much more effective and also send the message you would want about money, spending and rewards.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well, the whole thing about brushing his teeth is really the morning routine...which really is all about the length of time it takes for him to dress & eat.

He ends up going off to school without his teeth brushed because he's always scampering to finish dressing or gobble down a last bite when the van pulls up. At night it's not a problem.

As far as his eating goes, he's not picky, he's just playing games and uses lots of negotiating and deversion to delay/extend the process.

His dressing he can COMPLETELY do independently but will ask for help then run around using more deversion tactics.

Night accidents have become an issue. He wears pull-ups, but has decided lately that once in his PJS (including his pull-up) that he'll do a poop, then require a re-dress, again to delay/prolong the whole bedtime routine. But then we do still have the overnight wetting, which I think would be a ligit 'goal' versus a behavior modification thing.

And then the picking up thing, he does at school, but NOT at home. When it comes to this, I'm likely more at fault, but after having to nag at him about every other thing, I just give up and do it myself! So in my mind this would also be a goal, versus a behavior modification thing.

I guess I don't really see having to tackle all of it at once or anything...but those are all my immediate wishes...

buying/versus making...I'm not really set on either, just don't know where to begin on the whole making it thing. Should I get a big white board? Then don't I need magnets...all that seems to be atleast equal to the price of a kit, except then you still need the time to draft it up...seems intimidating to me, but I'm not really the 'creative' type so anything like this will feel overwhelming, ya know...so more direction from those that have done it on their own would be helpful.

I don't think little consumable rewards would work for him....when he had ABA he pretty much told the therapist to shove the M&Ms and the stickers too. He's ALL about non-compliance at all costs!

I'm thinking that building up to a certain number of stars (or something) that will lead to an outing or an activity will work best for him. I'm pretty sure most of this is about attention, so I think this will be the biggest motivator for him.

Perhaps if he accomplishes all of his tasks in a day he gets to choose a certian activity from a select list...like a card game or puzzle or something with me or DH...then at the end of the week if he accomplishes everything then he can chose something like biking at the park (we have to drive there), bowling, a movie (with a buddy maybe?), a sleepover with his cousins, etc.

Not that I'm 'set' on all this, just what I'm kinda invisioning at this point.

What else is involved with cmpatsi? Perhaps we just need to skip past the first stage or 2???

[lisa6wks]

Kristen,
It might be easier for all of you, if you pick the behavior or non behavior that bugs you the most. Then try natural consequences if you can. If he is pooing himself just to put off his bed time on a regular basis, start making his bedtime earlier by 15 min or half an hour every time he does it. Then if you get a night when he doesn't do it, make it later that night by 15 minutes. Make sure there is a clock he can see, he sounds like a very smart boy, I am sure he will get it. The trick is to not let him get you mad, just deliver the consequences in a matter of fact way and give him praise when he does what you want. If he is doing these things to get your attention, then every time you talk about what he has done or get angry or heck, even look at him too long, it will reinforce the wrong behavior.

I have one student at school that I cannot even LOOK at when he does somthing inappropriate, it's exactly what he wants and it will perpetuate the behavior.

Lisa

PS and remember consistency, consistency, consistency, which I know is easier said than done :)

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Lisa that does sound good!

I need to talk to DH...I think we might need to strategize a bit more though. We used 'fine you don't want to eat go to bed hungry then', approach and it backfired with him not being able to go to sleep... To be honest I can't really know for sure whether that was a game or not, I just know myself that if my stomach is growling there is no way on earth that I can get to sleep. So at some obnoxious hour, like 11pm or something he finally ate dinner and went to bed. :rolleyes:

The teachers tell us that he needs to be ignored pretty sternly at times and they encourage us to do the same...but it is impossible at times to ignore him at home...like he will just yell from the top of the stairs for HOURS until he is responded to or acknowledged. And we have a baby to think about. He'll also follow us around or simply come down stairs and chock up a negotiation for something. If we just take him back up he'll just amp things up by screaming or throwing some sort of destructive fit.

We've left him in the poopy pull-up all night...didn't phase him, and then he needed help scraping it off his arse in the morning...who got the worst of that? :rolleyes:

OMG!

I swear we have tried EVERYTHING! And he out smarts every one!

I do hear you though on the getting frustrated part...I have for sure noticed that the more reaction he gets the more he seems to thrive off it...it's so hard though because he can really work it good...he makes HUGE messes with his toys when I'm picking up in another room...and I KNOW it's all about the fact that I was doing the dishes and not with him...he'll take every piece of every toy or game and dump it into one HUGE box or something. It takes HOURS to sort them out & put them away. So I've taken them all away from him, on more than one occation...and he's had to 'earn' them back. I swear that was more of a punishment to me too...my closet was completely crammed with his stuff and it was in there a month before he even cared to get the first one back.

OK, now I'm just venting I think. We just had another frustrating dinner and I'm about to lose my mind!

UGH!

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/10/10_5_135.gif

[rbear4]

Look at it this way, we all do things because of rewards actually. for instance, a grade being a reward of its own...well why is it a reward? because mom and dad will be proud of us, because we are proud of ourselves, because we have attached a MEANING to the grade that is rewarding.

It is hard for kids with ASD to automatically make that same connection. Most typically developing kids may make that connection because they have the social ability and understanding to be able to relate and understand when parents are proud and that makes them feel good. For a child with autism that is a much harder skill or concept to learn when they have a really hard time understanding the whole social relatedness piece.

So what we do is we work with what DOES motivate them and pair that with positive praise. And slowly we teach them through our positive praise and telling them exactly what they did that we are proud of that whole relatedness piece and slowly from that comes the intrinsic motivation.

My kids LOVE to make dad and I proud. They just really didn't get what it was that made us proud or understood that unless they were told very specifically what it was and how that made us feel. So a tangable reward they understand for brushing teeth paired with "I am so proud of you for brushing your teeth" will slowly lead to where the tangable likely won't be needed anymore.

Don't think of it as a bribe, think of it as a teaching strategy and learning opportunity.

[RathyKay]

The only time I did the reward chart bit was for Claire. She was a sound sleeper and just did not wake up to go to the bathroom. I ended up buying one of those alarms for her. (They recommend your child is at least 5 before using one.) Anyway, I basically drew a calendar with one-inch squares on an 8 1/2" X 11" piece of paper. I don't remember our rewards exactly. I believe she got a Reese's peanut butter cup if she was dry all night. Three nights in a row, we went to McDonald's for lunch. (Why yes, this was pre-diet days.;)) Two weeks was a trip to ToysRUs for whatever she wanted (I think I set a $20 limit, but that never became an issue). Anyway, it helped in that *she* wanted the end result as much as I did, and we had a tool (the alarm) to help us get there. I can't remember how often we did Reese's PB cups, but it wasn't long. McD's was a one-time reward, as well as ToysRUs. (And with the alarm, the two-week mark is pretty much the "you're there" mark.)

I know I said at another time that we helped our morning routine by getting up 15 minutes earlier. I think you said Coley would find ways to dawdle even more. Since you said he wants attention... maybe if he gets ready early, he can have an immediate reward of that card game, or a story with you (whatever you put on that select list), before the bus comes.

I wouldn't do the poopy pull-up bit, just because you don't want to add diaper rash to the end result.

Anyway, I don't know that I've added anything to help you. Coley is a much bigger negotiator than my kids. You're going to have to figure out how to motivate him.

[matika]

Rewards chart really work with my son Joshua, it curves his behavor, and later the chart is removed, or not include something that it used to, so it's not a co-dependency.
The chart will eventually move from paper to his head, as a habit, if you do thing the way you suppose to, then you will see the rewards, kind of for all of us in life. If we eat well, we feel and look good. If we go to bed early, we get more rest, etc, etc.
The chart has come and gone at our house. It helps with the issue at hand, and then it fades away as he masters it, then later if something else comes up, the chart comes in again, but with less time, unlike at first, that chart was around for longer periods of time.

About brushing his teeth, perhaps switching for him to brush his teeth first thing when he gets up after using the restroom and washing his hands. This way at least the night stuff gets flushed away, breakfast will just have to linger until after he gets home ;)

Best of luck

[frogmama]

For Chris reward charts were basically useless - he needed instant and immedately recognizable rewards, same with "punishments". Instant and connected to the "crime". Oddly enough he liked to floss with flavoured floss, so as soon as he spit out that last mouthfull of toothpaste I pulled the floss out of hiding. No brush, no floss (I also had his back teeth sealed as soon as the dentist would agree, including baby teeth) If he don't eat breakfast in the allowed amount of time, the cereal or whatever gets dropped in the garbage disposal. This one may not work for Coley as he has dietary issues, but something along those lines.

[Keggy]

A quickie on cmpatsi...
C= Consumable like food item, candy etc. Must only be given as reward and no other time.
M= manipulable something that a person can play with for a set period of time as a reward
P = possessional
A = Activity .. like going to the ball park
T = Token you get a token that you can exchange for something else at a later date, after collecting a few
s = social
I = intrinsic
In About there is more indepth explanations, there are also free charts on the web. Like this site http://www.latitudes.org/behavioral_charts.html

[lisa6wks]

Kristen,
You're right! Often implementing behavior techniques are harder on the parent/teacher than they are on the child. Unfortunately, you really just have to grin and bear it. It sounds very much like your child wants to run things, a natural inclination, but one that you can't give in to for his own good.

The more you have a plan and stick to it, the faster the changes will happen. But remember! Behaviors always get worse before they get better. Especially when the strategy is working. So don't give up, just because you think his behavior is getting worse, just keep keeping on.

In the example that you gave about not getting anything to eat, if he won't eat dinner, you should never have given him anything to eat at all, no matter how much you thought he wouldn't sleep. Never ever say you are going to give consequences and then don't follow through. If you can't follow through, don't threaten it. He needs to know that when you say something, you mean it. Otherwise all he has learned is that he needs to scream louder or hold out longer to get what he wants.

Believe me, I know how hard this is, I have raised three kids of my own and have been a special education teacher for over 15 years. It took me years to learn this and I still make mistakes.

Lisa

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Right, so I've learned that taking his dinner away doesn't work for him (or us) so I never threaten that. I tell him that the longer he plays the games the longer he sits in front of his meal and the less time he has to play or whatever. He seems to be ok with that. Dinner can go HOURS. One bite at a time...it's RIDICULOUS! So we may sit there until it's time to start getting ready for bed, but he's eaten. What's the alternative? To have him up wired all night? He wouldn't care, and DH has to get up for work.

I don't ever threaten anything I can't back up. Sometimes when he is very disruptive during dinner, not just slow, I'll put him in his room. He often will change toons quickly, but still will eat slowly and with TONS of reminders: Coley take another bite, Coley chew your food, Coley swallow, Coley sit in your chair, Coley stay in the dining room, Coley we are eating not playing put the toys down...COLEY IF YOU DO NOT SIT DOWN AND FOCUS ON DINNER YOU WILL BE GOING TO YOUR ROOM (again)...

And I swear to gawd, if we let him he would NEVER eat...he just does not seem to work up an appetite, EVER.

UGH! He's been this way with food since he was an infant...I honestly don't think it will change...my gut tells me that it is a CLEAR indication that there is something MAJORLY wrong with him digestively, but we just can't find anything...but we keep looking...

I just dont' know what else to do, I'm absolutely tired of nagging him!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I dunno, maybe I'm a complete idiot when it comes to parenting or something but this is what we've done:

C= Consumable like food item, candy etc. Must only be given as reward and no other time.

He has NO interest in getting any sort of consumable (that he can tolerate) as a reward. I have been able to 'bribe' him with broccoli (or other veggie) during dinner as a way to get him to eat his meat though.

M= manipulable something that a person can play with for a set period of time as a reward

ABA tried this first after getting the sticker/M&M thing shot down by him. He VERY quickly got aggrevated by the fact that the item kept getting taken away and stopped performing for it. The value of having it for a moment or two was not worth the loss to him. I think from here he started getting swing rides in the parachute when he did all he was asked to do during the sessions. They mostly did floor time with him, though so a lot of it was reward as you go because he was playing with toys while interacting. Although when being 'charted' of course the toys had to be the therapists chosing and he had REAL trouble with that...I think that's when the whole parachute bribe really came into the plan.

P = possessional

We did this to get him potty trained. It did the trick, but not before he manipulated us into the poor house. He would actually pee a little just to get a new Thomas train. But how in the world could I ever say, oops sorry that wasn't a big enough pee or whatever... we ended up changing the reward from getting one when he peed to getting one if he went all day without an accident...that kid now has the entire Island of Sodor!

A = Activity .. like going to the ball park
T = Token you get a token that you can exchange for something else at a later date, after collecting a few

And so this is where I feel I'm at...A & T...so I guess I feel like (particularly after talking so much about how defiant and stubborn he is) that this is the right next step, so how do I do this without some sort of chart or way to visually show him what he's accomplished or achieved?

s = social

UGH! He doesn't care too much about what others think. He wants attention from his peers, but it still needs to be all his way, which doesn't interest too many people, so he just gets sad & sulks when he's alone. He doesn't really 'get' the whole 'sharing' interests thing.

I = intrinsic
Clearly we are miles away from this on even the most basic of things like eating!

Thanks for posting Keggy! I'll check out that link and see if I can get a better 'picture' of where to go from here. I did see the other post, so I'll be anxious to see if you remember the book.

[RathyKay]

Right, so I've learned that taking his dinner away doesn't work for him (or us) so I never threaten that. I tell him that the longer he plays the games the longer he sits in front of his meal and the less time he has to play or whatever. He seems to be ok with that. Dinner can go HOURS. One bite at a time...it's RIDICULOUS! So we may sit there until it's time to start getting ready for bed, but he's eaten. What's the alternative? To have him up wired all night? He wouldn't care, and DH has to get up for work.
Hee! It never worked for Tom, either. If he didn't like supper, he'd get up immediately and that would be it. And then, he'd wake up more often at night. And depending on which med he was on at the time, he might throw up in the morning from having meds on an empty stomach the night before. And since he was (is) small to begin with, well, it just didn't work. (It does work with my daughters, though.)

A couple of thoughts that may or may not help... what are you doing as this meal drags on? I do try to eat together as a family, but you reach a point when the meal should be over. Maybe read a book at the table while you wait for Coley to eat, so you're not feeding him with attention on top of everything else? (After you've reached the designated end of meal time, of course... 20 minutes or whatever you decide.) Or, if he's not done eating by that point, he goes to bed 15 minutes earlier that night? And if he's not done in another 20 min, send him to bed another 15 min earlier? I don't know if either of those work for you (or Coley). Just thought I'd toss them out there.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Kathy, we give him a little extra time, even kinda go slow ourselves to try to have dinner together in an interactive way...since it seems that interaction is what he is looking for. But once it gets to 30 minutes, or if Audrey is ALL done with her highchair, then we get up and slowly clear the table and clean up. The table is within eye/ear shot of the fridge and counter & all, so he's not abandoned as this process goes on...for say another 10 minutes. Once that is done we generally move to the living room to catch a little news. This is when things get crazy...he'll take his plate and bring it into the living room. Now we have a choice, either inforce that he stay at the table (and accept the amount he's eaten) or allow the relocation and help him continue to eat. We are NOT consistent with this because sometimes he's had 2 bites by this point and clearly he needs more, and other times he's had more.

I TOTALLY know the problem with this. But when eating is the primary objective for him, and he CLEARLY works that, we have to do what it takes.

I'm REALLY peeved today. I'm guessing I sound pretty negative too...does it seem I'm shutting everyone's ideas down? I don't mean it to sound that way, it's just that we've read everything, we've tried everything, and when it comes to the whole mealtime thing, we even had feeding therapy...I'm just so DANG frustrated with it!

My BIL was over yesterday to help DH run cable to the bedroom and mount our TV, yep (if you remember) that's the Christmas present we bought our selves :rolleyes:...anyhoo, Coley didn't want to stop working with his favorite uncle & DH to have dinner with me & Audrey (at a normal dinner hour) so I let him wait and have it with DH when they finished....which didn't happen until 7:30! Yup, we could have shut the whole prject down earlier, but BIL wanted to finish so that he didn't have to come back another day. So they presssed on thinking it would only be another 15 minutes or whatever...then hit one snag after another splicing & running the wire...

So, whatever...it's 7:30 and with a normal kid if he ate and got changed he could still be in bed by say 8:30...At this point Audrey is asleep and I'm scurrying around to get laundry and things done and ready...stuff I can't do today because we have a railing guy coming in and I won't be able to run up & down the stairs to many times...

Ok, so as I'm running around and the clock is ticking I'm catching a glimpse of what all is going on with Coley...it's 8:30 and he's had 1 fish stick...but wants to finsih before getting ready for bed. DH leaves him to tackle the things he needs to do to get ready for work and checks back with him every few minutes...nothing on his plate is changing...finally at some insane time like 9:30 DH puts him into his PJs and takes the food away...he had maybe another 1/2 of fishstick...GRRRRR!

By the time he got to bed it was 10pm! I don't know who I was more aggrevated with!

And then this morning was a real charm...course he's tired, wouldn't tell me what he wanted for breakfast, and I KNOW from past experience that if I chose it ends in disaster so I say FINE, you're not going to tell me then we'll just move on...and I had to FIGHT and get abused by him to get him dressed...it wasn't the right time to do it so he was pi$$ed, he of course wanted to play his game but I wouldn't allow it. I put in a time out and then he FINALLY told me he wanted french toast. We made it together and while doing this he asked for a banana for snack at school. So ok, the rule is that the as long as he eats his meat then he can have his 1 fruit & 1 veggie each day. And again, from past experience, he eats that meat first! I can't trust that he'll eat it after. So I tell him then he needs to have some sausages with his french toast. After some negotiation where he 'gets' that a banana will NOT go into his snack bag if he doesn't eat 2 sausages BEFORE he leaves the house, he finally gives in. I make him the sausages and he sits down to eat.

I warned him that he was running behind now because of the antics and that he had less than his usual time (30-40 minutes) to eat so he needed to start with the sausages if he wanted that banana.

Well, long story short, he ate about 3/4 of a breakfast link and 1/4 of a slice of french toast...and he's going to be mighty peeved when he finds that he does NOT have a banana in his snack bag.

GRRRRRRRR! I sure do hope this neuropsych can help us get past some of this $h!t...5 years old and I'm dressing him like he's a baby?! Well with the exception that he doesn't lie there in compliance, he fights and runs around and negotiates the entire time! I'm really starting to build up some resentment and that is making me sick to my stomach!

[lisa6wks]

Kristen,
Can he or will drink pediasure? Personally I think the stuff smells awful, but I have students who don't eat well, and the pediasure gets them through. I was thinking that maybe you could give him a very small portion on his plate, like 2 or even 1 fishsticks and the pedisasure and try and take the pressure off of yourself and him.

If he doesn't like pediasure, my daughter was was a horrible eater used to like Carnation Instant Breakfast. She used to eat chicken noodle soup or tuna fish for breakfast, I didn't care as long as she ate something good!

Lisa

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

No. It's got a ton of crap in it that is off limits for him. Mostly the sugars and HFCS, but other stuff too...artificial flavors and preservatives. But that would mostly just be going backwards for us. I can and have made him high protien drinks & such from scratch, a homemade pediassure deal...but we are FINALLY at a point where his eating has actually progressed to the point that he is NOT drinking the majority of his cals. Infact he only gets about 8 oz of milk each day now. Most of his liquid is water.

But now we are getting WAY off subject.

I mostly feel like I'm nagging and punishing to get anything done. I REALLY want to turn that around. I HATE the idea of using rewards for stuff like eating, but if I have to use some technique (in lue of him doing it intrinsically) then I feel it's a better alternative to the nagging. ESPECIALLY if it gives him the responsibility. I find it sad too on the eating, it should be a nice thing, I tell him this all the time...we should be able to enjoy our meals together, food & company...he just doesn't get it!

[Keggy]

I didn't read all your post, but I saw where you were trying to make him eat his meat and luring him to do so with brocolli.... yikes!!

Not sure what you are thinking, but I don't know why you are doing this. THis does not seem to be about giving him good nutrition, its more about making him understand who the boss is. ANd clearly, he is the boss! Is he underweight or malnurished? If so, then he needs vitamins and minerals which you can add other ways. Otherwise.......

Don't make mealtime an issue, especially if he is eating vegetables! He is not going to starve, and quite frankly what you are doing will probably give him eating issues that will last him the rest of his life!
GIve him 10 or 20 minutes to to eat and move on. If you want him to sit with the family for dinner for 10 minutes (or whatever) do that. Don't force the issue. Save his dinner, if he is hungry later let him have it then. You are his mom, not the warden. No snacks unless he eats dinner. Please make sure you are giving him small portions. Food, all foods become more desireable once you are really hungry.


Ok... skimmed more of your post.. lets review and I will mention what is ...

C= Consumable like food item, candy etc. Must only be given as reward and no other time.

He has NO interest in getting any sort of consumable (that he can tolerate) as a reward. I have been able to 'bribe' him with broccoli (or other veggie) during dinner as a way to get him to eat his meat though. Do not do this.... consumable will not work for him. There is no treat that he really enjoys, like a candy that you can limit ... right?

M= manipulable something that a person can play with for a set period of time as a reward

ABA tried this first after getting the sticker/M&M thing shot down by him. He VERY quickly got aggrevated by the fact that the item kept getting taken away and stopped performing for it. The value of having it for a moment or two was not worth the loss to him. I think from here he started getting swing rides in the parachute when he did all he was asked to do during the sessions. They mostly did floor time with him, though so a lot of it was reward as you go because he was playing with toys while interacting. Although when being 'charted' of course the toys had to be the therapists chosing and he had REAL trouble with that...I think that's when the whole parachute bribe really came into the plan.
That is not a reward if it is being done as part of his therapy. This should be an activity that he would not have unless he met his goal anyway.
P = possessional

We did this to get him potty trained. It did the trick, but not before he manipulated us into the poor house. He would actually pee a little just to get a new Thomas train. But how in the world could I ever say, oops sorry that wasn't a big enough pee or whatever... we ended up changing the reward from getting one when he peed to getting one if he went all day without an accident...that kid now has the entire Island of Sodor!

This is why rewards (even possessional) should be cheap, cheap, cheap. Not something that even costs a dollar, cheap cheap cheap or free.


A = Activity .. like going to the ball park ... here he could be playing on the parachute, but as an activity outside of his usual therapy, and it has to be something he really wants to do, and can't get it any other way (not even in therapy)

T = Token you get a token that you can exchange for something else at a later date, after collecting a few

And so this is where I feel I'm at...A & T...so I guess I feel like (particularly after talking so much about how defiant and stubborn he is) that this is the right next step, so how do I do this without some sort of chart or way to visually show him what he's accomplished or achieved? Make him a chart... simple just make a chart, makes boxes, write days. he likes thomas the train? Make a train that you can put on each spot, or the letters to thomas name (would he get that?) one letter per day and let there be a reward when he gets "thomas" , maybe a trip to somewhere, or an activity.

s = social ... always do social, always praise. In time he may come to get it.

UGH! He doesn't care too much about what others think. He wants attention from his peers, but it still needs to be all his way, which doesn't interest too many people, so he just gets sad & sulks when he's alone. He doesn't really 'get' the whole 'sharing' interests thing.

I = intrinsic
Clearly we are miles away from this on even the most basic of things like eating!
This too shall come in time.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Keggy I think you are missing a key point here. Coley doesn't like candy. He does however LOVE vegetables, but because he is fructose intolerant can only have small portions of them (1 serving per day, generally at dinner). So we can at times get him to eat say 2 more bites of steak in exchange for another broccoli spear, or another teaspoon of peas or something to that effect.

I'm assuming that they did this properly...I just remember that they tried to get him to do things over & over & over so they could say he 'mastered' it, or whatever...and had trouble getting him to perform. I was asked not to be present as I was a destraction for him...they tried using a play-dough machine and he loved it. But after a couple sessions he refused to take the play-dough machine and they were at a sorta stand still until they found something that would 'motivate' him. It was a bust and they just ended up doing floortime with him. I remember this being a REAL issue when it came time to show his skill level to the behavioralist at the school (when he transitioned at 3yo)....well she got it after trying to assess him herself. They determined he didn't need ABA in school.:rolleyes: And hasn't gotten it since.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

ok, let's get off the food subject because I'm starting to get frustrated by the topic. People, please trust that we have been to the ends of the earth & back again with his eating...we have successfully avoided a feeding tube, we have had periods of time on medical food beverages, that actually made him more sick, we have had feeding therapy and more...what we do around eating IS currently the best we can do for him. The alternative is he won't eat. I know this is hard for people to believe...but Coley is either too busy or oblivious to hunger cues. It has been this way since he was an infant.

So let's talk about him getting dressed as an example instead, is that ok?

Now, he is 100% capable of dressing on his own. He has done it many times...but as usual, it MUST be his idea and he will just do it. So if I tell him it's time...that means it's time for a game of avoidance and deversion...

Well unless you can tell me some other way to convey the idea to him that at 7:45 am it's time to start dressing (as he hasn't yet and the bus is on it's way)...we are basically destined to continue status quo, and I am WAY tired of it. Of course I have tried all the techniques I could find...I even taught him to tell time...he KNOWS 7:45 is the time to get dressed...I have just asked him about the time, I have brought his clothes to him with no comment, I have tried 'you do this, I'll do this' none of it works because the bottom line is...if he doesn't want to do it, he won't...so inevidibly I end up wrestling with him to get it done. The BEST situation is when he follows instructions without running away from me...but even with that, he just stands there and I have to shove his leg in or his arm in or whatever...

So, consumables won't work and little presents like stickers don't work.

And frankly I'm none to keen on the idea of giving him a sticker for acting like a dead fish anyway. I REFUSE to give him praise if all he does is 'cooperate' like he's a 2yo...if he wasn't capable of doing it himself I'm sure I'd feel differently, but I'm not going to reward him for playing games. I want him to dress himself...for god sake he even refuses to pick out his clothes.

When it comes to Coley it's ALL about negotiation and deversion...and I am tired of playing, I don't want to play anymore...I'm sure he would continue. The idea of charting or whatever is so that I can stop being responsible. I honestly don't know if it'll work...but I've tried everything else.

When I first posted this I was waiting on the psychologists office to call back with an appointment...well I've gotten that call and we don't see them for consultation until august, then Coley gets assessed in october and sometime around november we'll get results...so now I'm really feeling desperate. There is just absolutely NO way that I want to be still dressing him and feeding him like he's a toddler for another 6+ months!

Christ, Audrey is 14 months and is using a fork and feeding herself pretty efficiently on her own. She eats until she is full. Maybe that's why I'm REALLY losing my patience with this...because she even puts her arm in her sleeves, feet into pant legs, tries to put her soxs on, and gets her coat when we are going out...I honestly don't get that much motivation out of Coley.

ok, I'm venting again...I guess I've jsut REALLY reached my limit with this! Maybe I need to call the feeding therapist again. But not sure they have a dressing therapist...

[milivica]

I wanted to post, but knowing I'm like a broken record with the 'RDI' I didn't know what I could say. You know how all parents always say your child doesn't come with a set of instructions...well RDI has been a set of instructions - not just for Vince, but Carmen too cause it's all based on typical development. So I can't say enough about something, that gives me all the parenting tools I need for both kids, ideas and concepts I'd have never thought of on my own.

I hear you talking about what Audrey is doing at 14 months, so wonder if what Coley is not doing is pure stubbornness or, is it that a part of him is not yet at a 14 month level of development. The part that is called 'guided participation' in that one post I did all about it, when I first read the term (a few weeks ago, maybe a couple months - I forget!).

I didn't read much of any responses of others, didn't want to be influenced (cause I like everyone, so it's hard for me to not agree with folks I like). My take is this, why the heck did it ever get to be the norm, to think if a kid has autism the motivation should be sooooo different than with nt kids (m&m's for instance). You 'think' you want compliance, me too...many many a day I wanted blind compliance, or, someone to rip my head off cause I was going nuts. But there's a deeper thing we want which is for our boys to WANT to put on their clothes or coat in the same way they would, were it not for autism. Right? That is Guided Participation. I believe you want this for Coley, and see Audrey already has it:

Children's cognitive development is an apprenticeship - it occurs through guided participation in social activity with companions who support and stretch children's understanding of and skill in using the tools of culture.

I read that in the preface of a book I'm reading, it's absolute poetry to me, exactly what I'm after with my kids...guided participation. And for sure that's not going to happen, with food rewards and so on. You are going to have to set the stage, for him to become your 'apprentice'. My biggest and probably least helpful suggestions, would be for you to learn why Audrey does what she does eagerly, learn what it is she has neurologically that causes that, then learn how to help Coley gain it - since the only way I know to do that is RDI, that's what I continually suggest. If you can't go that route or prefer not to, at least get the books on the site www.rdiconnect.com weather by purchasing or by the library, and learn what happens in the brains of children when they develop typically. I say this, cause that was the greatest way to learn about what autism is...when you learn about autism, you are learning about a VOID, about what is NOT there, ok? So, first learn about what IS there for Audrey. You absolutely have to get that Master/Apprentice or Guided Participation relationship with Coley, cause once you do, everything just sort of works.

If you're ready to rip your head off in frustration, do what you must till you get the Guided Participation going - but I feel you must get guidance yourself, and tools for yourself. What parent doesn't?

IF Coley is 'nt' when following his diet, then take parenting classes - seriously. I say this, cause that might be a really good way to understand nt development, and to have ideas that will provide guidance to you, especially in the areas Coley is 'nt'. Even if at this point, you can only apply the parenting classes to Audrey, that's ok. I mean, start somewhere, educating yourself about typical development, gaining tools and concepts for yourself.

I can't tell if what you say about him, is cause of autism or cause you care so much more about him doing things than he does, and he knows it. I really doubt it's all stubbornness or whatnot, by nature kids want to follow us, see us as the leaders. Not all the time of course. I think you need tools to parent Coley that you don't have, I think that could be said about 99% of all parents weather their child has autism or not, yes? Must be, or else all kids would be college grads and never do drugs or break curfew, etc...

Also, compare notes with other parents who have children that can't eat fructose - I mean is there some chance it is something he is eating, or not eating, etc... I mean is there any chance any of this is dietary. Though even if it is, you have to set the stage for him to become your apprentice.

There is no quick way for Coley to make gains in having an 'apprenticeship' with you, Audrey has been practicing it for the last 14 months though, since her birth. Coley needs the opportunity to gain this, and practice it. Again, I hated to post, cause I felt like I wouldn't be that helpful...it's like you're asking how to get to the west coast and I'm saying "well gee, just become a pilot and buy a jet". But this is the road I took that WORKED and continues to work, so the only one I know to suggest.

By the way, that pic you posted of your kids, priceless priceless priceless, not just cause they're so darn adorable, but cause I see how Coley is posturing and pointing next to Audrey, he really truly is WITH her in that pic, you can tell. I think it's awesome. No way Vince could be 'there' like that, WITH Carmen, at Coley's age...and look at all the stuff I say now, just a year after really getting into RDI, aka, getting parenting tools for myself. I know you can do this, you know you can do this, you've already done great. Look back at all you sought and discovered for Coley. You can do it, but cripe you need some parenting tools you don't have, you are at a very unfair disadvantage without them.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Mili,

Please don't think I don't want to hear about RDI, I believe in it too...I just don't get it entirely, and I also understand that you are not a consultant...but can you try to be a little more specific.

First off Coley approaches everything in a argumentative way. Everything!

This morning we actually got through breakfast & dressing & all with 5 miuntes to spare. Generally we are rushing to finish up as the van is beeping. So for the first time since Easter he's had time to brush his teeth. So I said...wow, we got done early...let's break open that new toothbrush from the easter bunny..."I don't wanna brush my teeth..." I'm ashamed to say, I just left it...I am just so f'n sick of arguing and debating about every single thing. Certainly dressing and eating is NOT up for debate, so I then have to endure the battle and use all sorts of tactics so that it doesn't seem like a battle...but inevidibly it is, and I AM ready to rip my head off! So after getting a half of an English muffin in him, and having a fairly compliant dressing session...I just didn't have it in me to start the negotiation into brushing. I just feel like the more often I ask him to do something that he gets away with not doing is just reinforcing the whole game for him.

So fine... he COMPLETELY understands, and will tell you, if you ask, that if you don't keep your teeth clean they will get rot holes called caveties and that they hurt more than shots from the Dr, and then you have to go to the dentist and that hurts too...and this was ALL reinforced last week when one of my fillings came out...he gets it...go a head let your teeth rot! I don't really feel that way, but for 5 minutes this mornign I did.

So, I know Coley is in a league of his own when it comes to deversion & all...but how would you handle this with your RDI techniques?

And oh, for the record, I think Coley is more like ADHD on his diet...definately not nt. One reason his eating is so bad is because after one bite he's up out of his seat and running around. When we try to have conversation...he often feels the need to get 'props' as he responds...and we can't seem to get him to just talk without them. Like if he's telling us about something that he drew at school...he'd get up from the table and get it, then tell us about every stroke of the crayon...all while that bite of food is sitting in his cheek. So we then have to remind him that it's there and that he needs to chew it or swallow it. And that we are still having dinner, and it's time to sit back down.... But if we interupt him he gets VERY upset. He will say something like: "then, then, then, THEN THEN THEN......" until we stop talking...so he doesn't hear anything we say...we stop talking or get louder than him...those are really the only options. Our choice largely depends on how long we've been sitting there and how much he's eaten, not just in that meal but all day long.

Another example would be if he say fell and was describing that, he'd get up, maybe even find a similar area, then sorta act it out. Meanwhile everyone is done with dinner and he's got that first bite still sitting in his cheek...or maybe the second.:rolleyes:

So then we end up putting the food on his fork and sticking it in his face as he's running by, or stops his story for a minute or whatever... No one seems to know why his hunger cues aren't loud enough to keep him focused on eating...this seems to be a bigger mystery. But to me it's the same sorta stuff that goes on with dressing too. He's just ALL over the place...on a good day that is. A bad day we battle it out because he's not just distracted he's down right defiant.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, so this morning is a good example. I'm just going to describe it and Mili (or anyone) please tell me what I could have done differently...

Most mornings he wakes up in my bed, but he actually slept in his bed all night last night. So I go into his room and lift the shades and say Morning, it's time to get up.

Coley: "I don't wanna go to school today." {fabulous, right out of the gate!}

Me:"well, it's going to be a beautiful day and you're going to have lots of fun with your friend on the playground"

Coley: "grunt"

{last night he asked me for some of Audrey's juice, and I told him if he eats all his eggs this morning he could have it with breakfast, but that he couldn't have it before bed}

Me: "do you want scrambled eggs and juice for breakfast"

Coley: sits up "Carry me downstairs"

{I don't want to as I've already got his clothes our bedside waters & the monitor, but this is an every morning thing...he won't get out of bed without a big screaming fit unless I carry him...and I don't want him to wake up Audrey}

Me: Coley you are getting heavy for me, AND you are perfectly capable of walking on your own.

Coley: Carry me- Carry me - carry me - carry me...{with his volume going up with each turn.

{of course I know. Giving in to him is only reinforcing his horrible spoiled behavior. But I also know if I start the 'battle' now chances are no breakfast will be eaten OR that by the time we get through the morning routine I'll have injuries}

Me: You carry the waters and your clothes and the monitor and I'll carry you.

{we get to the kitchen and I grab the eggs}

Me: Coley, grab the pan behind you please.

Coley: NO! I want juice.

{now remember that juice is NOT a good thing for him. But the juice we have has NO added sugar and also contains vegetables...so it's not the worst of the worst...but we've really seen a big difference in his tolerance level when he consumes fructose along with protien}

Me: Coley you know that you can't have the juice unless you eat your eggs.

Coley: I don't like eggs anymore

{he LOVES scrambled eggs and I really don't want him to ruin that for himself, so I don't push it}

Me: ok then, how about sausages and english muffin then?

No response. he opens the fridge, gets the juice and starts whining for his sippy cup. which he is perfectly capable of getting himself.

Me: Coley, you are a big boy, "Mr 5yo" (he reminds us of this fact constantly because apparently 5yo's can do most everything:rolleyes:) you can get your sippy cup yourself.

{sippy cup?????? why not a glass...whatever small detail I'm not going to focus on}

Coley: I don't want to get it...still whining.

Me: first of all Coley, I need you to stop whining. 5yo's don't whine. Secondly I need you to find your manners. If you can ask me like a big boy it might be easier for me to help you.

Coley: whine whine whine...

Finally he tries to get it himself because he's too stubborn to just stop whining and say the word 'please'... He exaggerates his difficulty getting the bottom part as it's out of his reach. So I suggest he get his stool...

Coley: I don't like to use my stool for getting sippy cups, just for making breakfast. (still whining)

{oh, this is going to be a good one...it's now 7:20 and we don't even have the breakfast menu decided yet. so to speed things up, I grab his cup and hand it to him}

He hops back up to the counter and wants to fill his cup with juice.

Me: Coley before you get any juice you need to decide what you are having for breakfast.

Coley (with a teenager's Mom you're an idiot tone): I told you sausages and english muffin.

Me: you did? I didn't hear you. Did you tell me that with your voice or in your head?

Coley: in my head.

Me: Coley, I can't hear your thinking, you need to use your voice. You are getting angry at me because I didn't hear something that I can not hear.

Coley: why can't you hear it?

Me: Can you hear my thinking?

Coley: no.

Me: well I can't hear yours either.

Coley: just pour the juice

Me: ok, now we are back to those manners again...


I'm getting tired of typing the whole dialog...I think you get the idea. He eventually asked properly, drank his juice ate 1 breakfast sausage and half of his english muffin. WITH ENCOURAGEMENT along the way. He was not fully dressed when the van pulled up...he wanted his vitamins and asked for those. So I asked him to put his sneakers on while I got them...that when I came back I'd help him tie them...

I returned with the vitamins and he hadn't even attempted the sneakers. SO I gave him the vitamins (ONLY because I had to put them down to do the sneakers and he'd only end up taking them and there would have been NO time for a 'debate' with the van outside) and put his sneakers on...and rushed him out the door.

No brushing again! His hair was all sticking up too... But he had something in his stomach AND socially acceptable clothes on his back :rolleyes:

[Keggy]

Listen, this is about changing Coleys behavior, its not about whether you are a good mom or not, so don't take things personally. What you are doing many parents do, and it may work for them. The effect that you are seeing now is different than what they may (or may not) see later. (lets not get furthur into that... just be cool that what I am saying is not to offend you, but to help you)

And lets be clear, it makes no differnce whether we are talking about food, sleep, hygiene or whatever ... ultimately no difference.

You understand that if you want to change a behavior you have to change yours. That applies for everybody, everywhere. There is no magical pill that someone can offer you that will work. You understand that you need to do something different in order to get Coley to do what you want? Right?

You want to change his behavior because you want him to be healthy, social, mannered... etc. You can't change his behavior without doing something yourself.

If you can accept that .. go on, otherwise stop here!

His behavior now is something that he has been taught, most likely by the person or persons who give him the most time. The activity would be relevant to the person he spent that time with as well. I would assume that would be you.

You said..(somewhere back there) "First off Coley approaches everything in a argumentative way. Everything!" And then you said earlier that you made him sit at the table till he was done eating, or use whatever behavior you want to address, if not eating.

This statement makes it only clearer to me that you are teaching him to be argumentative, as you have taught him that he will have to do as you wish or else.

There are a number of things I can say that you should do. Such as, for some things do not ask, tell.
"Will you please brush your teeth, eat your burger etc?" vs. "Please eat your burger"
Don't make it a war or an argument.
Something like brushing his teeth needs to be done well once a day. If he will not brush them once, well every day then you need to do it for him till he does. Be gently and loving but do it! If he dosn't like toothpaste don't use it, its not neccessary.
My daughter is a once a day brusher, I brushed them myself for years. not a cavity at 18and trust me good teeth are not in her genes.

And as for meat, he can eat other proteins, he dosn't have to eat meat or much of it. He is a little kid. We parents tend to dwell on this pyramid of food group, which is a bunch of nonsense! Meats are loaded with steriods and other agents that your child would be better off without. My dd didn't ate very little meat when she was younger, eats a bit more now. She ate few vegetables, and little fruit (outside of bananas). Now she eats a large variety of foods, it comes with age. No cavities, perfectly healthy weight (which is not the case for most of her peers). Oh, and she drinks chocolate milk every day.

Choose your battles wisely and treat your child like a person rather than your child. (a possesion)

example
"I don't wanna go to school today." {fabulous, right out of the gate!}

Me:"well, it's going to be a beautiful day and you're going to have lots of fun with your friend on the playground"

Coley: "grunt"


Instead "I don't wanna go to school today." why? (his response) he may have a legit response. You are closing the door to discussion by telling him why he should go. Let him tell you why he should stay home. Maybe someone is teasing him or has touched him inappropriately, how would you know? Validate his statements. You could offer sympathy and support because we all do things we don't want to do, and sometimes they turn into something really great. Let him use you for that support he needs. When you talk to him get down to his eye level, look to him as a supporting equal rather than his superior who has say over everything he does.

Instead of saying why you can't carry him downstairs with the large explanation, just keep it simple. Say "sorry, no" Because he can't even begin to process your explanation. Ask him to help you carry something down, give him something tiny to carry safely.

Don't say things like "5yo's don't whine" because that is inviting him to whine! When you say "don't kick her.".... or "no screaming"....., or "never talk back to me" they ignore the negative word and pretty much tells them (even when they know better) to do that.
Its like saying to someone that "don't worry I won't sue you" when what you are really saying is "I can sue you if you don't...."


It sounds like there is little humor or fun in your morning, but you only gave us a glimpse. Try to bring in some humor, let him see you as a failable person. You need to get COley to share in responsiblity and connect with you as a human, not as the person who tells him what to do.

Your son has a wonderful abiltiy to communicate for his age. There is so much you can do to get him to behave the way you would like. Remember he will mirror every behavior he sees from you. This age is critical to him and his relationship with you. What he sees between you and your husband (or significant other) is also very relevant so make sure that the male figure in the house is absolutely loving and respectful to you. Its the old edipus complex... and men should be paying heed to what they are doing to their kids.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I don't make him sit at the table...which I understand is part of the problem. But we have MAJOR issues blood sugar wise if he does not eat. Even his feeding therapist conceded that if the only way for us to get something into him was on his way by as he hops around, then that's what we have to do...so when necessary we do this.

So we first start out with getting him to the table. Generally that is a struggle because he NEVER is interested in eating. Once he sits he may first balk at what's there...he's argumentative because he likes to talk. He uses this method at school as well. He wants the dialog and will look for any means to generate that. Once he realizes that the only way for a dialog to occur is if he stays IN the activity that has presented itself (namely dinner) then he will begin.

But this is where things go awry...since he is really NOT interested in eating, once conversation is generated, he is up and running around. This is where the reminders take place.

Coley, sit down please.

Course that's as much about him not choking on the food that is in his mouth as it is about proper behavior, PLUS addressing his whole focus issue.

He will usually put one cheek on the seat. At which point we will remind him that he either needs to chew, or swallow or take another bite...and the whole process repeats. Coley, it's time to....

Now depending on his mood, like if he is overtired or hungry, he will be grumpy and begin to get defiant...which starts the debate process. "I don't want that dinner" "I don't want any dinner" blah blah blah....

If this happens I tell him that if he is going to be disruptive to OUR dinner then he can go to his room. Remember that this is all about dialog for him, so that will usually stop him in his tracks. If it doesn't, then he ends up in his room, and his only option for a before bed snack is his dinner that he didn't eat.



I'm sorry Keggy I don't want to seem like I don't appreciate your help, because I asked for it I hope you know I want it. But the thing that is kinda bugging me right now is the assumption that we haven't tried all the obvious things.

Of course I know that some things NEED to be done. Of course I have forced it to be done when he doesn't comply. Of course I have given him warnings and changed my words. We have been to parenting classes, we have strategized with school...I have read every book I could get my hands on...plus more.

The bottom line is that I am tired of this. The behavioralists have told me that being patient and giving him time to get into the routine will get us there...well I'm tired of waiting...it's been 5 years and he still doesn't do these things. And I KNOW it's all about creating the opportunity to negotiate. It's not a battle of wills...it's about discussion and language and showing off his vocabulary...he just happens to be stubborn too...like most kids his age, but it comes pretty strongly engraned into his genetic code too.

He likes meat. Steak is one of his favorite things. He LOVES fish too. We are told that his preferences (which have been present and obvious since he was very small...refused fruit and veggies but was regularly eating asparagus and swordfish at 11 mos) is largely a factor of his fructose intolerance. He is on a vitamin combination in accordance with that. You'd actually be surprised at how few vitamin deficiencies are present from a diet void of fruit & veggies.

Coley eats only organic foods because he cannot tolerate those things that are in non-organic meats and dairy products. The Dr beleives that is due to his metabolic disfunction...

He is NOT picky about food. He will eat and try anything. The WHOLE problem is him staying with the process. And we are not talking about a small meal here. We are talking about if I leave him to his own devices he will eat a handful of food across the entire day...then we run into HUGE problems.

We have had the conversation about why he doesn't want to go to school (many times). It's really that he doesn't want to get out of bed. This is likely because he is having low blood sugar and is tired and irritable. We haven't checked it lately, as long as we keep his fructose to a minimum he keeps his BS swings in managebale order. His mornings used to be a LOT worse so I don't feel it's necessary to actually poke him to find out that it's at 60, or whatever. I know it's on the low end...he hasn't eaten in 12 hours...that is why he's grumpy in the morning and why he wants to be carried. He's not on the verge of fainting...he could walk...but he's definately on the weaker side and he knows it. This is why breakfast...especially protiens are important for him. He also knows this. Carbs will go through him quickly or else I would let him have toast or whatever by itself...but in the morning that will go through him too fast and we will have issues. There is no argument there he is well aware that he needs protien with every meal and is fine with it. He knows which things are protien which are energy and which are fructose... But the rule is absolutely no fructose without a protien...this is supported by his Drs too. They reinforce it with him. We are not focused so much on the consumption of meat as much as we are on the idea that he needs more to eat. SO if he says he wants more broccoli, then we use that desire to get more meat into him...beacuse that is required for him to more efficiently process the broccoli anyway. So rather than get 1 more ( to make a grand total of 5 bites of dinner) we get 3 more bites (for a grand total of 7). And if he wants more broccoli after that, it's 2 more bites of whatever protien is on his plate. He's also a big fan of chicken legs...

Our last big effort was to over emphasize our example setting for him. So for months I've been getting up (generally with him sleeping next to me) and saying..."time to get up and get dressed" and inviting him to do the same...no go. Time to brush my teeth, wanna come brush with me...no go. Then try to eat breakfast with him...he takes advantage. Dinner DH & I try to have a conversation and he starts yelling over us...and not with anything to say, just so that we can't talk. He just yells LA-LA-LA-LA-LA.... This is an example of his disruptive behavior...and where he would first get a warning about going to his room. We know by his actions he's feeling left out so we say: Coley how was your day...and that generally starts the props and dramatizations. DH is in charge of clean-up after dinner and invites Coley to help...he generally likes helping, but like everything else, ONLY if it's his idea. So of course we work with that notion too...he's too smart for reverse psychology...or maybe we are really bad at it. He doesn't fall for it. He is either interested or not.

If he's not, then he will go find some other way to get DH away from the dishes so that he has his attention on what HE wants.

If Audrey is up, it is easier for us to disipline him with time outs and things to correct his obnoxious behavior. But he knows that this is a card he can play at anytime (when she is asleep)...just get louder until he's disrupting Audrey...then he'll get the attention.

And ok, while I have been sitting here, he was supposed to be eating his lunch...which HE delayed because he wanted to watch the workers cut wood while Audrey & I ate ours. Audrey is in bed now, I am here...but before I came up I left him in front of his lunch (chicken & fries that HE asked for)...He's in his room playing, my bet is that he ate nothing! It's 2:00, he's had only that 1/2 of one side of an english muffin and 1 breakfast link, maybe 6oz of juice, 4oz of chocolate milk (using dextrose) and a slice of ham since 7am. He was outside playing while at school, and we were outside after riding bikes.

He just came in...apparently he ate his fries (of which there were only few, like 5 shoe strings) but didn't eat the chicken.

He just explained to me that he has "a lot of work to do down the basement (which is not finished btw) so will eat his chicken while he works" Then asked me if I understand what he means. I said yes, but I thought you wanted to go back outside. He huffed, (oh no, big dilemma) well maybe I can go out after I get all my work done.

Ok, so this is what I got for an explanation after I asked a simple yes/no question: Did you finish your lunch?

My response was, Oh I think it mught be better if you eat your chicken BEFORE you work, then you'll have the energy.

deversion tactic #2: "Well, I think we need to bring more things down the basement to play with (currently he has a little art area)"

me: Hmm, not sure there is really anything else that we'd want down the basement. Why don't we finish lunch first then see what we can come up with.

Coley: How about Mr. Potato head.

Me: Coley let's go finish lunch.

Coley: "you know so is my brother in law but he still needs headlights" Cars fans will get this...it's actually pretty funny if you don't know it, I'll explain...

Me: Coley, should we put lunch away?

Coley: Let's put life is a highway on, and he starts singing

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok, so in 15 minutes I just fed him like a baby and he ate 4 chicken fingers without any dialog...because he sat in front of the TV and I just stuck the food in his face as he finished each bite.

I KNOW! Wicked BAD! But what is worse is if he didn't eat...the alternative would be at the table with me dictating while he flits around.:(

So in all it took 2 hours from start to finish including delay tactics and deversion conversation. And in the end it took me feeding him to get the job done.

[peglem]

Well, maybe I'm just a bad, bad mom. Eating has always been an issue for Allie....always. I don't focus on appropriate behaviors there- its about sustaining life! She eats while watching TV, playing computer, etc. As long as she eats, I don't care what else she is doing. She is able to feed herself (so great, I know she can- so she doesn't need to practice it), but frequently wants me feed her (especially in the morning). I give her the opportunity to do it herself. If she doesn't, I feed her. At that time, its about getting the food in and beating the bus deadline, not about demanding appropriate behavior. I feel pretty good most days if she's ready for school and gets on the bus and we're both uninjured in the process. If we enjoy it along the way, great, but bottom line, it gets done and I don't fret about it.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

And that is LARGELY how I feel too Pegs. You know, until recently his weight gain and growth has been a real issue as well...we are FINALLY seeing progress there. I like to encourage proper eating habits and behavior when possible, but a successful morning for us is much as you describe.

But since he is capable...I'm just feeling like it's time to move past the baby part and start giving him more of the responsibility. And that is really what this whole thread was supposed to be about.

I'm tired of the games. He's clearly smarter than a toddler (and perhaps many adults too), but is insisting on being treated like one. PLUS his focus is a problem and I'd like to do something to work on that more. I was hoping that that would be an area that the psych could help us with, and hopefully he still can...but my patience has worn thin and I am not willing to wait until November for his ideas to start tackling it.

So Coley's eating is more complex than typical, it's a HUGE sore spot for me because we been through the wringer with it...so that's likely why I'm getting defensive about that particular discussion.

But what about dressing. He can do it, just like eating. But plays the same sort of deversion and delay tactics. In the end he gets dressed with A LOT of assistance and very little cooporation. At times it's a battle of strength. And he's not weak!!!!!! We've talked about blood draws haven't we? 2 techs & 2 parents to get them done...and everyone is sweating (except Coley) by the end of it! Well I could use those techs some mornings to get him in his school clothes!

I'm just tired of it! If there was a way that I could motivate him to do it on his own, versus having the battle with me...gosh our mornings would be nicer! And our bedtimes too for that matter!

Remember the school thought I should just send him on the bus in his PJs...ya that's all I'd need...then he'd get the idea that's it's ok to leave the house in his PJs!

Is it unreasonable to think we could break the negotiation cycle and create a more positive dialog using the reward chart?

I guess there is really only one way to find out...

[peglem]

Well, it just seems like your the one getting so aggravated- not Coley.

Normally, around 2 to 3 years of age, kids just start to naturally want to do things for themselves...that didn't/doesn't happen with Allie. She sees no reason why people should walk around clothed, eat with utensils or so many other conventions. She doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with being different and though she is happy to get my praise, does not go out of her way to obtain it. I don't know how to make her care about those things (I'm even a bit conflicted over whether she SHOULD care, sometimes). I believe that is what RDI is for.

Anyway, my honest opinion is that the reward chart will just cause you more aggravation and Coley more anxiety(making it harder for him to comply).

[milivica]

Hey Kristen...just want you to know, I'm going to read the thread more fully later, I read some of what you posted just now.

This might sound nuts to anyone without a hyper kid, but I read what you said about Coley and ADHD, for me personally, the H in adhd has always been more challenging for me than even autism. Woah, I mean, that's the stuff that makes me want to rip my own head off.

So wow now I hear your whole story differently.

I called this one mom I know down my block, I really REALLY like her. She has never in all the years we've lived near one another made a stink about anything Vince did, despite other neighbors and parents making a federal case out of everything he does. She was a mom at 19, decided to do childcare to support herself and the kids so took a butt load of parenting classes and now has 4 kids, and they all are absolutely balanced as can be. Especially since RDI giving me parenting tools (my first experience with solid parenting tools at that) I've been kind of fascinated, with how some kids come out so balanced and happy, and others don't. Ya know? Like how do some moms have the parenting thing down, and I'm 44 and still often scratching my head.

Her, like the other moms I most admire, are into these parenting books, to get tools for parenting. Which, I used to think was a bunch of hooey (and I'm sure some books are crap). Oh, my point, so I left her a message saying you have a master negotiator, everything is a hassle even getting dressed and brushing teeth, you feel negativity and nagging coming out of your mouth is becoming a norm and you don't like that and don't want to be that kind of mom, you want positive interventions for your olympic debater/negotiator. When she gives me ideas about books she read on the topic, I'll tell you, and I really think she'll have good suggestions.

Personally, I wouldn't focus at all on changing Coley's behavior as a priority, cause when you change your behavior him changing will be the natural consequence. Wouldn't it be great, when he does his debating negotiating thing, to understand exactly how to react...cause that's what I'm trying to find out for you. So hope that's what you're looking for.

If there was some way, I could step by step make RDI related suggestions I would, I really would. It doesn't work like that. I'm still trying to further develop Vincent's natural or neurological inclination to want to be my apprentice. Also, I don't think it was bad to not have him brush his teeth this morning, so what. Explaining to him about cavities and so on, eh, forget stuff like that...I know when I go to SuperTarget tonight with Carmen, and eat junk, it's gonna make my butt bigger but I'm still gonna do it, hee hee hee.

Let's get you some brand smackin' new parenting tools...ones you can pick and choose hopefully from a site or book. You'll change your behavior, and Mr. Coley will have the ball in his court. He'll have to do all the adjusting around you, I like how that sounds!

[Keggy]

You'll change your behavior, and Mr. Coley will have the ball in his court. He'll have to do all the adjusting around you, I like how that sounds!

So moldy, are you being sarcastic?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well that's true.

But what's the alternative, allow him to not eat or get dressed?

I'm upstairs right now getting Audrey ready for bed and I heard DH telling Coley to pull up his pants.

"Underware first Coley"
"Coley, Coley, don't run with your pants down...."
"No, you can do this yourself, pull up your pants...

on & on.

Give me a break. Should we just let him run around with his pants at his ankles? Seriously? There's a line somewhere, that he MUST do these things. I honestly don't know how to get him motivated.

DH stopped and got the chart on his way home...I hope it doesn't make things worse. Now I'm scared. He saw the bag, pulled it out and asked about it, we told him what it is...he's response was that he can't wait to play the game. DH & I still need to discuss rewards so I told him we need to talk before we can start it...and he just keeps saying he can't wait.

Mili, THANK you! And just so you know just how BAD he is with the dialog...he knows about caveties not from the whole brushing thing, but from asking questions as he goes. It's like when we are tieing shoes and end up discussing the concepts of gravity...it just winds up there. From the line of questioning we get from him...good thing is that he remembers it all! People are always amazed at the things he can discuss.

[Keggy]

Just keep those rewards cheap or freebies, once you start heading into prizes you are looking for trouble, even if it means he gets 10 stars and gets a trip to go to the park and ride the swings.

[Keggy]

BTW... yes, allowing him not to eat or dress... why not? You need to choose your battles wisely. If you do not react or argue about these things, if you give him something to model (like moldy was saying, become your apprentice) he will model it.

Ever watch Supernanny? Lots of those techniques should work well for you, although personally I would never use time out. For many of us some of those techniques didn't work so well because our children could not comprehend language enough, not the case with Coley. He may not comprehend everything, but he does understand simple statements and can verbalize responses.

I don't know if COley is developmentally delayed, but if he is keep that in mind as well. If he is 5 and 2 years delayed, he is more like a 3 year old.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Since we feel that his antics are largely interaction driven ALL his rewards will be interaction based. No gifts at all.

We decided that if he completes all his goals in a day he gets a 15 minute extention on bedtime to do an activity with us. Audrey should be in bed, and as a general rule once PJs are on...it's relax time, so no games or whatever are played...so this should be a treat for him. We need to come up with a few more rewards to choose from but so far we have: coloring, card games (war, fish, old maid, crazy 8's), pick-up sticks, puzzles (jigsaw or mind teasers), worksheets (mazes or dot to dots).

And then at the end of the week if he gets all his goals (although I think 100% might be too much so I want to revisit that with DH)...then he gets a bigger activity of his choosing: biking at the park, kite flying, sleep-over, movie, zoo, hiking, train ride (public transit) and a few others I can't think of right now.

The goals we put up are:

-make bed,
-dress
-brush teeth
-set table for dinner
-help DH with dishes
-pick up his room
-get ready for bed

We decided to see if having more responsibility impacts his eating before actually putting that one on the list...

Last night he asked DH to read all the magnets, and his reply was
"Daddy! that's a perfect game for a 5 year old" :rolleyes:

We told him how the 'game' works this morning. At first, he said that he could do it but needed a little help, so that's a HUGE step right there. I helped him out, but mostly just with direction and some reminders to stay on track. He even picked out his own clothes!

So he's already got his 3 smilies for today and he's pretty excited about getting the rest. He got big high-5's too (even from Audrey) and seemed pretty happy about himself. So hopefully it works, even a little would be a step in the right direction...and hopefully enough to get us out of this 'negativity-rut!"

If you can think of any other daily rewards, we could use a few quiet time interactive short activities. He gets stories before bed, unless he's being punished, but other than that I think anything that won't get him hyped up or messy before bed will be fine.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ooops, forgot to answer you Keggy...

I can't allow him not to eat or dress. Skipping meals results in dangerous BS issues for him. And I can't send him to school in his PJs. For any other child this would probably be fine. But for Coley he will make the connection that PJs are an ok thing to wear to school...it would be an GIANT step backwards...because everyday after that he would simply say...I don't want to get dressed so therefor I chose to wear PJs to school.

We do choose our battles, as Peg says...sustaining life if a battle I choose to fight for. Other things like getting that sustanence infront of the TV, or as he passes by on the run...that I allow.

We do watch supernanny, all the time. And yep every single episode screams something to me! And we do use time outs. They used to be more effective when he was smaller...2-3...but now he knows how to make them 'work' into his plan...he just screams and tantrums more than he ever did. So we chose that technique carefully...like when we are trying to eat and he's disrupting us...including Audrey. Then we remove him and he can scream all he wants and it's still an improvement over him screaming in the room with us...

I think Coley is emotionally delayed. Developmentally?????? Hmmm, maybe socially.... I need to think about that more. But cognitively he has always been off the charts.

[milivica]

Kristen, dunno if this is helpful to hear now (I hope it is) but the more I hear about Coley's manipulations, the more positive I feel about things. I know you're at your wits end, but all these things he is doing, is development.

Let's hope your parenting tools are 'delayed' cause you can get those, ok?

Now, I wanted so bad to post to you last night, but my puter has been not connecting to the net lately. Grrrr. I have a story I thought you'd enjoy, and, wanted to know if this is the kind of 'work around' you want for Coley, and if this is the kind of 'parenting' you want to do. Bear with me if the story is a bit wordy, I was just absolutely LOVING the parenting going on, and was just omg so wrapped up in watching this young boy, as well as his parent's parenting style.

Ok, so there was this very young couple in Target with an infant and maybe a 3 year old boy. The boy was sure active! As boys are. I was at the store with Carmen, she and I got an icee and pretzel, and the boy sat next to us on the high stools. He struggled hard to get up, so when he did, I said, "Wow, you sure must be strong" and he replied, "I don't like girls" (baawawawaaaa!) and instead of his dad freaking and making him apologize, he said short and sweet, "That wasn't a nice thing to say to people" and dropped it. That left the ball in the boy's court, see? Though I realize my ma might say "he should make him apologize" I loved that he didn't, loved that dad's comment just hung there. I mean first off I hate a forced apology especially from a 3 year old, second, the apology is for the apologee not the apologizer, I would hope at 44 I can handle a noncooth comment from a 3 year old. Puhleeze.

Also, I recall being made to apologize made me mad at the person I had to apologize to, didn't teach me anything but did teach me to rationalize that it was the other person's fault. Embarassment and less attention taught me lots thought. I could literally SEE the boy think about what the dad calmly said, and make discoveries for himself. That day, the discovery the boy made, was no matter how hard he grunted and acted strong in front of me, I didn't again 'notice' him and say how strong he was. (Of course if he initiated talk with me, I'd have responded)

Here's the coolest part, oh man....so later in the store, the dad and mom and infant are walking, the boy is in an aisle, the dad calls him to come, and the boy ignores him. Ok, that's 3 for ya. So, the dad grabs pennies out of his pocket, walks about 20 feet away and drops one loudly - the boy flies out of the aisle, picks up the penny, forgets all about the fact his dad wanted him to come, hadn't figured out the penny plan or anything, and all was good. Dad continued to drop a few more, we were walking in a similar direction and I was just mesmorized by everyone being happy, no struggle and so on. How the parents continually worked around they boys active and head strong disposition, and everyone won. Doesn't mean they'll be throwing pennies forever of course. Finally I asked if he was the boy's dad or uncle (cause he looked to young and unstressed to be a dad) and he said he was his dad. I said, "Wow, what a FUN dad!" and he said, "Yeah, why not, only cost me 4 pennies".

Anyhow, might not sound very interesting, I was just enthralled. I could have watched these interactions all day. You could just SEE the boy's thought process, his will versus the parents will, and how they used 'work arounds' with ease.

I remembered too, that long ago I used to plant pennies in each aisle while shopping with my kids, cause omg being only a year and a half apart in age, are you kidding? Vince still undiagnosed, me just thinking I was the worst mom on the planet cause no other mom's struggled to keep their kids' clothes on for God sakes in the grocery store. Anyhow, finding the pennies kept the kids busy, they didn't really know the value of money, I hated them kneeling and touching the dirty floor, got plenty of comments and probably 'looks' (being aspie I lucked out in not seeing the 'look' usually), but ya know what, so what and who cares about others, if my kids aren't bothering you it's not your business. If my parenting is bothering you, go talk to my ma. I'm not making myself nuts, to please others, in stupid areas. Such as, an apology from a 3 year old (though I did do that back then, thought I was supposed to so my kids wouldn't be rude) and so on.

Anyhow, hope you liked the penny story, and hope you learn to remove some pressure about how your parenting is supposed to be and how your kid is supposed to be. Ya know? Maybe if you didn't feel so much pressure to do right and good and what is 'proper' it would help you some? I dunno. One 'trick' that used to help me, though I could never keep it up for long, is I'd pretend I was babysitting so was not responsible for my kids ultimately. Just for that night. Took me a long long time to have fun with them, yet still raise them to become 'good' adults. Still a balancing act. I learned I can't underestimate MY EXAMPLE, I can't help them be people that I have not yet become. I used to really resent that, big time....I envisioned parenting would be me being able to drink beer and eat cheetoes and bark out orders from my comfy couch....isn't that how most of us were raised??? Do as I SAY, not as I DO.

Anyhooo, did you enjoy the penny story? Is that the type of parenting you have in mind....work arounds that create the end result you want. Yes? And when I say work arounds, that to me means temporary, not planting pennies when your son is 18 to get him out of the store. I just mean there are lots of times, being creative and working around their strong little stubborn agendas is better than reasoning or any of that. I'm an 'end result' person. When I parent, the less stress the better. I can set limits, but I don't think I have an ego or anything, I'm not the type to shout "obey obey obey cause I am the parent" or what ever. If my kid thinks he got away with something, but in reality I got my way...good enough for me! Not always, but very often. In time, he became much less resistant, cause he doesn't realize he's doing what I want! Turns into a nice cycle.

[milivica]

Hey Kristen, you asked me to remind you about 'my idea your idea'. I figured if I didn't do it right now I'd forget. So, tah-dah, I actually remembered.

[GinaMarie]

Those were neat Mili.. Tho with me, I dont know, either being a visual learner or not fully getting it with my comprehension struggles.. With the dad and the pennies.. Did he toss them each closer and closer to him to bring the son to him?

Kristen, I've read it all but have either been to tired to post or on the way out..

One thing I've learned and not sure if Coley will respond to or not is I think are called PECS.. I might use them with the boys. Make step chart with pictures and maybe attach them with velcro. Have like a pocket or container at the bottom. Each time he completes each one (i.e get dressed, brush teeth, eat in time, etc) he takes it off and puts it in the container. When he is done he gets his reward.

If you dont know what Im talking about with PECS I can try to show you pics when my computer is working right. Its messing up with links right now.

HUGS,
Gina Marie

[Keggy]

I love the rewards you came up with (acitivity) cheap and good for him.
I personally would add more art (being thats my profession) I know allowing him to be creative is always good for the soul. There are things you can do that will not be too messy, like watercolor painting, or colored pencils etc.

I like supernanny, but tottally against time outs, totally. Too abstract for any kid, and it becomes a punishment. I do not beleive in punishment except for criminal behavior.

Maybe your husband and you could compromise on the 100% goal reaching for that big reward by offering a wild card. You could have a wild card if he did something above the expected, or he could make up for something he did not do by doing something else.

I like the plan.....

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Thanks everyone for your replies...

We had a kinda out of the ordinary sorta afternoon yesterday, very busy and not our standard so our plan sorta broke down a little, but all was fine in the end.

We got LOTS done outside. Did I tell you that Coley and I planted flowers last weekend???? Well we watered all the flowers yesterday, and played loads outside while we had a few people drop by to discuss some work DH wants done on the house. Coley's favorite uncle (Tommy) came by too and then one of our neighbors started building a sandbox for his 3yo so was outside running his new power tools. Then we BBQ'd for dinner...

Coley went to the grocery store with DH. He told me the CUTEST story last night...

They walked into Whole Foods, and BIG surprise, DH spots a race car shopping cart. They've never had them before. So DH looks down and sees the excited look on Coley's face, so he says "Oh, that's a #5 race car...I don't know if we want a #5 race car. Coley yells as he's bolting over...No, no Daddy, number 5 is perfect, I want number 5 alright. LOL!

So DH gets him buckled in and tells him they need to go to the butcher first. DH called in the order so mostly just needed to pick it up. They pull up, and Coley screams...Steak Tips, I need my steak tips! Everyone stops to see the 8th wonder of the world...a 5yo screaming of steak tips. We generally get about a months worth of meat at a time and fill the freezer, so the butcher looks at Coley and says...Do you like steak tips?

Coley: Yes, I like steak tips. They make you strong.
Butcher: You've got steak tips here, and plenty of them.
Coley: Well, are you sure there are enough?
Butcher: I think so. How many people in your family.
Coley: Mommy, Daddy, and my baby sister Audrey
Butcher: (with a surprised tone) Well, I'd say you've got enough then.
Coley: How many?
DH: I ordered 16 Coley.
Coley: Is 16 enough Daddy?
Butcher: Are you having a party?
Coley: Daddy are we having a party, can we have a party?
DH: No we aren't planning one, but we can talk to Mommy later. Those tips are for dinner, not all in one night though.
Coley: I guess it's enough then. I need chicken on the bone too?
Butcher: Oh yes sir, you've got lots of chicken on the bone too.
Coley: Ok then. What about sausages, Irish sausages.
Butcher: Your dad got all your favorites, they're there.
Coley: What's next on the list Daddy?

now everyone is like, WHAT?!

How cute is that!?

He was really good and VERY helpful for the rest of the day, except he had one moment that I wasn't pleased with at all! He wanted to help our neighbor build the sandbox so he grabbed his tools and ran over to help...he actually ended up keeping the 3yo out of his fathers hair, which was perfect...but later on when it was time to come in we needed to collect all his tools plus his 2 wheeler and his trike (that the 3yo was using) and bring it back to our garage. Well as soon as I asked him to help me he took off for home...course if it were my house I'd have left them out for him to get later, but couldn't leave his toys all over the neighbors lawn, ya know.

Oh, crikie...gotta go for a bit, I'll come back and finish in a few...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

So, I'm struggling to carry it all, and I get back to the house.

Me: Coley! Do you see all this stuff I'm carrying?
Coley (Look of horror on his face): yes.
Me: Do you think this was easy for me to carry?
Coley: no (looking down in shame)
Me: Next time I ask you for your help, I expect you to help, not run away. Do you understand?
Coley: Yes.

So we finish up for the night, he helped DH with the dishes and got himself all ready for bed. When we reviewed his goals for the day he was a little disappointed that he didn't get to set the table, so he offered a solution: Can I have a smilie instead because I ate all my dinner. I thought it was a great compromise. So I told him we needed to talk to Daddy. We went and talked to DH, and he said, well Mommy Coley was a VERY big helper at the grocery store, AND he was a really big helper with Wesley today too (the 3yo)...so I do think he deserves to get that smilie. So Coley all excited runs back to his board and puts a smilie in the 'set the table' box...but then when we got to the clean up your toys part...I insisted that he not get that one because of him running away like he did. I told him that I'd like him to try harder to follow directions today and he said he would.

Then it was on to the reward part. It was by this time pretty late because of the crazy day we had, but we had to do something. He was saying he was tired and it was already after 9pm. So we went and had another pow-wow with DH...and all decided that he could watch a movie in our bed as his reward.

Today after breakfast he cleaned his room, without being asked because he wanted to put that smilie in yesteray's 'clean up your toys' box. I let him do that. And he's got all his smilies for today so far too...:D

So, so far, so good...


Mili...that was an AWESOME story...and I know I do need to lighten up. I really hope the chart just helps us break the terrible rut we've gotten into...it's no fun for any of us and taking away the stress I'm sure will go a long way toward being more creative and openminded...so thanks for the story!!!!

And the reminder...Keggy, I think I can combined the 2 ideas...did you guys ever play a game in like middle school where you'd fold a piece of paper in 3 sections. At the tops one person would draw a head, then fold the paper carefully so the next person couldn't see...they'd draw a torso & refold the paper and the 3rd person would draw legs and feet? You'd open it up to see some crazy combo, like a cat head on a girl body with octopus legs or something...

Well, reading both your posts back to back made me think of that...I'm sure Coley wouldn't really like that exact game...but I bet we could draw together using my idea your idea...and make some funny picture. He does LOVE art so I'm all for adding more creative stuff that we can do without getting messy. We do have colored pencils!

GM, I totally know what you are talking about an dI still have a pile of pecs stuff...thanks for reminding me...I'm sure they'll come in handy as we need to modify the magnets that came with the chart we got.

As for the 100% we actually didn't talk about it...it just sorta occured to me yesterday when we needed to skip the clean-up one that now he's not going to get the 100%, but what if (and he seems to have) learned to do it for the remainder of the week...doesn't seem fair that he not get anything for missing 1 block in one day, or even 1 block on each day...I mean if he gets 6 out of 7 that's pretty good, ya? So we haven't talked about it yet, but when we get a chance I'm sure we'll come up with something more reasonable...I'll run it by you when we do too...

[peglem]

From me in an earlier post:Anyway, my honest opinion is that the reward chart will just cause you more aggravation and Coley more anxiety(making it harder for him to comply).


Glad I was wrong!

from Kristen:As for the 100% we actually didn't talk about it...it just sorta occured to me yesterday when we needed to skip the clean-up one that now he's not going to get the 100%, but what if (and he seems to have) learned to do it for the remainder of the week...doesn't seem fair that he not get anything for missing 1 block in one day, or even 1 block on each day...I mean if he gets 6 out of 7 that's pretty good, ya? So we haven't talked about it yet, but when we get a chance I'm sure we'll come up with something more reasonable...I'll run it by you when we do too...

It seems to me, Coley has already come up with a solution: find a way to fill in the missing stickers by doing a task to make up for it!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ya, I'm kinda expecting that too Pegs...hmmm...maybe I could just help him make sure he fills in any missed if/when it happens too...like the way Keggy described...just encourage him to find another thing he could do in it's place...

I don't want to count my chickens yet...I'm just hoping his enthusiam sticks! We did have to give him a lot more reminders this morning....but after the night we had, we're all a little off, sooooo

[GinaMarie]

Sounds like SO FAR he is off to a GREAT START!! :) I hope he continues to LOVE this game and eventually it becomes habits for him. BOY do mine need to learn them also!! :rolleyes: ALL 5 of them...:rolleyes: :p . Im going to find pecs online and make some at least for Noah and at least TRY with him.
hugs,
GM

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Good Luck Gina!!!!

BTW, we ended up getting the Melissa & Doug one that pasted the link to in the first post of this thread. It was only $20...so it seemed worth the time and (for me) extreme effort it would have taken to make one...

Since it's wooden & magnets I figured it'd be REALLY easy to find magazine pics or whatever and paste them on as we grow out (crossing everything) of the ones that came with the board...but DEFINATELY those pecs pics will work too! ;)

Let us know how it goes!

Hey, I just remembered...where's that good news thread that Mili started...that would have been a MUCH better place to post the Whole Foods story! :rolleyes: I gotta make a point to visit that each day...I'm sure that'll help me keep the right attitude too!:p