Autism and schizophrenia

[dyslimbic]

Autism and schizophrenia (http://www.usnews.com/blogs/on-parenting/2008/03/31/autism-and-schizophrenia-linked.html)

[mrsjerome]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/27/AR2008032703144.html?hpid=moreheadlines
This is an article on schizophrenia linked to unique genetic glitches There are just a couple of references to autism in the article too.

[Isabelle]

"schizophrenia" in the u.k. is seen as a gut illness, as "autism" is seen.
it's not in the genes.... and if they were, what is causing the genes to get sick?
many times diet or boosting the immune system of people affected by "schizophrenia" or "autism" have recovered.
autism and fibromyalgia lab tests has been found similar pointing to a disorder of the immune system.....
my thinking is "looking for genes" is the way of science to sweep under the rug the real reason of many medical problems explained as "psychiatric".

[LauraP]

--Autism and schizophrenia are "gut" illnesses
--Autism and fibromyalgia are related
--Genetics research is just a smokescreen so that scientists can sweep the facts under the rug

Is there any evidence for any of the above statements?:confused:

[Isabelle]

plenty if you want to open your mind to some 'out of the box" insights and if scientists, doctors are curious enough to investigate and to ponder.

these two sites are from several i read.
"neuro-immune gastrointestinal dysfunction syndrome: a new descriptor for autism and chronic fatigue syndrome? a spectrum of disease" 2001
http:www.ahmf.org/01cosford.html

"chronic fatigue and autism" 2007
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0ISW/is_279/ai_n16865315


the first time i read the relation of CFS and autism was from the physician of the group home and that was 1999. so i kept it in mind. from there i have read many others with different views but agreeing that somewhere, somehow there is a connection. i think, as i repeat my thinking, is that's part of the puzzle. the same way that wakefield has a piece and now we have another piece in hannah's case: mitochondria disorders might be behind why some babies regress into a sort of "autism" and why some others don't....mitochondria disorders and probably damaged DNA, metabolic disorders, immature immune system, central nervous system, gastrointestinal issues and the probability that vaccines might be the trigger those disorders to flare into "autism" in some cases. also excessive use of antibiotics. i feel that we are closing in to find a way to prevent autism and many others neuro- immune disorders, etc...i hope before i am dead.

[Isabelle]

who knows science eventually could find for sure that mito and gastrointestinal issues is behind psychosis or schizophrenia as it's suggested in many studies.
a study on treatment of these "mental illnesses" noticed that in poor countries where people can't afford "meds" have recovered from first time psychotic episode.
perhaps those dx with "schizophrenia" and/or "psychosis" could heal if were treated for a mito deficiency. the same with cardiac condition....or lupus...or diabetes, allergies, eczema.....

[mrsjerome]

In the article I listed is a statement by Sebat of the Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory.
I just can’t seem to get that out of my mind when he states that :Genes have timing. They follow developmental programs for where and when they’re going to be active”
Some people are prone to some diseases such as the ones you have listed above. Are not some genes responsible for a pre existing component that can wake up a mutation in one or more of those genes to set a chain of occurrences when that disease will start to manifest itself. You mention diabetes. I believe that is a condition that probably is genetic as members of different generations in a family are prone to it. The American Indians I have heard are very prone to getting this condition. Sometimes this condition takes years to manifest itself. Could this not be the timing of a defective gene waking up itself.
Some of these genetic occurrences that seem to run in families may or may not be controlled by diet or life style so whatever is feeding that gene will not wake it up. Cancer is another condition that can run in families. Have you seen this article on Gene linked to lung cancer

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/S/SMOKERS_GENES?SITE=WIMIL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Most of us know now that smoking is a big contributor to lung cancer. Yet there are people that have smoked for years and never got it. Why is that? In the article if you don’t smoke the chances are that gene or genes that cause the cancer mutation will not occur So the best thing to do is not smoke.
As far as Schizophrenia and autism are concerned there sounds like a trigger is involved also. The debates nowadays are centering around what could those triggers be.

[RDeyes]

That article makes it sound like this is a new thing but I think researchers have been talking about this for years, and have grouped schizophrenia, autism and bipolar disorder together in some studies.

[RathyKay]

--Autism and schizophrenia are "gut" illnesses
--Autism and fibromyalgia are related
--Genetics research is just a smokescreen so that scientists can sweep the facts under the rug

Is there any evidence for any of the above statements?:confused:
Celiac (mostly a gut disease) and schizophrenia (and gluten, of course): http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/schizophrenia
Also from The Gluten File, fibromyalgia and the gut: http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/fibromyalgiachronicfatiguesyndrome
Same website, Autism: http://jccglutenfree.googlepages.com/autism

I'm not sure what you believe on autism. I kind of think there are a lot of roads that lead to the same label. And I think the gut is one of the roads there.

[LauraP]

I will read these articles you've posted, and try to get back in a timely fashion to discuss and debate. In the past, we've not done too well on this forum debating the science behind a lot of these theories, but I really would like to engage in real dissection and objective discussion.

MrsJ--I also think there is common-sense merit to the idea of environmental triggers for latent genetic conditions. Being adopted means, to some extent, I have not been really concerned about my "family health history", since I know nothing about it; but my mom's family has no history of cancer, despite the relatively high rate of smoking (and, ugh, "chaw" use) in the family; on my dad's side, almost all the men have prostate cancer--in my grandpa's case, the onset was at 85 years old, so they didn't do anything (he lived to be 98, and his death was due to a stroke, not prostate cancer); my dad got diagnosed when he was 73, his brother was 74 when he was diagnosed. I'm not sure if this is some sort of age-related inevitability, but it is interesting that, if there is a gene for it, it seems to become a problem later in life.

Also, have you seen the reviews on a recent memoir, "Pretty is What Changes"? The author was diagnosed with the BRCA1 gene (presence of that gene is strongly--95%+--correlated to eventual breast cancer, to some extent also related to cervical cancer), right after her mom started chemo for breast and cervical cancer, and I think other women in the family had had it too. The author had prophylactic surgery (radical mastectomy, and will be planning a hysterectomy after 40, since cervical cancer doesn't tend to surface before then, and I think she wants to preserve her fertility), which is an option that is being offered to women testing positive for that gene. Interesting stuff.

[Isabelle]

mrsj, our genes get damaged and repaired in our bodies constantly in response to any and all environment changes, to stresses, to toxins, foods, to alcohol, nicotine....if i remember where i read this observation i'd show it here.
editing: for our genes to become damaged to the point of be passed on to next generation, it has to be another explanation, could be related to damage to the mitochondria the answer? mito damaged coupled with DNA damaged...next generations susceptible to cancer and another "genetic"diseases..?
editing:i think i read about the flexibility of the genes and capacity to heal on the germs' theory or the coming plague book.
my dlh was addicted to nicotine but he died of liver cancer, while my father who smoke cigarettes without filters, "filters are for sissys", he used to say, ok, in more salacious language, but this word is close enough :D he died of lung cancer. my mother never smoked, 'is not feminine' used to tell us, her daughters, that had taken the bad habit and she was alarmed when the doctor told her that our father's cancer was direct consequence of his smoking, but we didn't want to listen. we, sisters, took the habit "to look cool" and we didn't want to admit it but we couldn't stand the smoking. and never got to smoke more than 4 or 6 in social occasions and to finally quit all together, one after the other, in our 40s, we'd reached our saturation point. we couldn't stand feeling sick anymore.
i think to get addicted you have to start young, we started in our 20s, my father and husband in their early teens, smoking was manly at that time and boys wanted to be seen as "men".

[LauraP]

The whole smoking craze made a number of revolutions since I was a kid. Full disclosure: I tried a cig at summer camp and ended up hacking my lungs up, and the other girls all laughed at me, so I was traumatized to the point of never wanting to touch another one--your dad, Isabelle, would have a field day making fun of me. And the cigarette in question was one of those skinny ones for girls that had a pretty wrapper--maybe Virginia Slims or something?

Anyway, I'm 42, and when I was growing up, none of my family smoked (well, dad smoked a pipe, and I loved tobacco shops--cured tobacco smells so rich, like a combination of coffee and country ham...ahh!), and my mom would constantly point out women on the street who smoked as being "less than ladylike". I did notice that when my mom would hang out with her friends (she was new to the feminist scene when she divorced my dad, in 1971), though, smoking was seen as THE thing to do. CIgarettes, herbal tea, booze and Carole King albums.

During the 1970's, it seemed like popular culture was full of smoking, almost unconscious (of course, nothing involving film is ever unconscious, I know). It wasn't shorthand for "dangerous" or "counter-cultural" or anything. It was just EVERYWHERE.

When I was in high school (1979-1983), almost none of the male students smoked, unless they wanted to hang out with the "tough" girls, who all smoked, cut class and hung out in (get this!) The Student Smoking Pavilion. Yes, our school erected a gazebo for the smokers, which of course, encouraged them to keep doing it, and being teenagers, they frequently didn't secure their butts (in any sense of the word), and they managed to burn part of the gazebo eventually. The smoking area was in the gap between the main school and the vocational-technical wing, and all the geeks (like me) had to go to the tech wing to do computer programming (anyone remember the punch cards for computers back then? You'd walk around with a stack of them, or a shoebox, hoping they wouldn't get out of order, or the program wouldn't run). The guys in my classes were fascinated by the smoker chicks, who also (maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but it seems vivid as day) wore lots of makeup and dressed trashy. Or maybe that was the student teachers...anyway.

College, 1983-1987, the only people I knew who smoked were the pre-grunge ones, or the faux-artistes, who favored these Turkish clove cigarettes. I still remember the smell of unwashed Sociology major and clove-tinged nicotine.

By the 1990's it seemed nobody was smoking at all, and the movies didn't even protray much of that. Nowadays, the smokers at work all sneak away to do it. I can't stand cigarette smoke, but I sort of feel sorry for the smokers--they were instructed that they couldn't smoke within 100 feet of the building, and when it rains the only place they can smoke is a 10'x10' picnic shelter (which has 4 picnic tables and benches under it, so there isn't much standing room), 250 feet away and dead center in the view of the upper management windows, so the big cheeses can see exactly who is loafing and how often they take a break.

UNlike me, loafing in my cubicle, without any oversight (ha!).

Back to work. Have a great weekend, ya'll

[Isabelle]

laura, in a 'few' words you have described the changes in 'culture or mentality' towards smoking through the last 4 decades LOL :D still there are people smoking and fighting for their rights to do so despite knowing the horrible, painful, lingering death they have signed for.
some brave soul was trying to pass a bill to forbid parents to smoke in cars when children up to 18 y o are present. good luck with that...addiction is so powerful.

[LauraP]

Isabelle--they've already passed a smoking ban in Baltimore bars and nightclubs, so I think the move is afoot to contain public smoking. I also heard that there is discussion of making smoking in movies grounds for an "R" (Mature audiences only, or accompanied by parents if under 18) rating. I think that's kind of silly, but it shows how smoking has fallen out of disfavor. None of my high-school age daughter's friends smoke, and they have no smoking on the school grounds. It's kind of looked at as tawdry, so see? My mom was right! :rolleyes:

[mrsjerome]

Cigarette advertisements from the 40’s & 50’s
http://www.chickenhead.com/truth/
Just click on to the 40’s or 50’s & see all the advertisements.
This kind of reminds me of the medication advertisements that
Are on TV and in the print today. Same type of advertising method ,only today
Instead of the tobacco companies we are besieged by the
Pharmaceutical Companies telling us the benefits of their products.
We've got a bit off topic on this thread but what the heck.

[The Pogue]

Sorry "outside the box insights" don't cut it as evidence.

The genetic transmission of schitzophrenia has been observed for centuries. It just wasn't called that.

[mrsjerome]

Here is a website on the history of schizophrenia
http://www.schizophrenia.com/history.htm
Even with the different classifications sounds genetic
Involved timing to me.

[frogmama]

LOL, Laura - I "smoked" briefly in HS, to fit in with the cool girls who wore too much eyeliner (we actually melted it with a lighter so it would go on thicker) - I say "smoked" because I never did get the hang of inhaling!! Sadly, my geekness could not be suppressed for long and I was back with the band kids playing Dungeons & Dragons by the end of the year...sigh

[Isabelle]

going back in the 'good' times, it was observed that family physical characteristics were inherited or passed along in their genes. observed too that some families of a particular ethnic group (race, religion) tended to inherit diseases and later was found 'genes that had mutated'.
then studies have found that tuberculosis vaccine in, again, a particular ethnic group, can trigger diabetes 2 in these people and of course is passed along. so the question is are there other vaccines triggering "diseases' or perhaps 'mental illnesses'? like mmr and autism?

'vaccine induced inflammation linked to epidemic of type 2 diabetes and metabolic syndrome' 'japanese and other ethnic minorities at increased risk'

then it's observed in the last decade an increase of people who were diagnosed as schizophrenic were really bipolar, ok no difference in drugs prescribed. in the last years bipolar is seeing as "genetic" and so children, toddlers, babies and now pregnant women are seeing as bipolar and as prevention should be "treated" before the disorder manifests. the problem is that

"psychiatry genetic molecular research has failed"... to find genetic markers in any 'mental illness'.

studies observed that aspartame in drinks caused symptoms of bipolar behaviour in children. google aspartame bipolar.

then studies observed people who had a first psychotic episode in poor countries where they couldn't afford "meds"/drugs recovered to led a normal life, in contrast those in rich countries who were "treated" went on to get worse, conclusion: if you live in a rich country chances are that you never get well from 'mental illnesses'.

[Isabelle]

LOL mrsj, how did you manage to find those treasures sites LOL they bring back memories...
yes, those ads for social shyness/depression by luvox or other SSRs are a simple a riot and when one was transformed as a drug to help you to get off smoking i fell for it and i was telling my lh to take until i read it causes seizures and aggression....and that it's a recycled old antidepressant with severe adverse effects.
have you noticed how fast the side effects are read? my goodness on one ad, the person recites at warp speed all the side effects that really they are worse than the disease

[LauraP]

D&D--yep, played it, occasionally STILL play it, and have introduced my kid to it too. DH played it. We are geeks. And it's probably genetic:D

[mrsjerome]

Isabelle I not only found the site but have to admit that I am old enough to remember way too many of those commercials LOL. Yes I know what you mean when referring to the pharmaceutical ads and the rapid side effects that are read after each commercial. Sounds like a 45 RPM record being recorded at 78 speed
LOL. The phrase that is usually used is ask your doctor if
this is right for you. I always thought it was the Dr. recommendations for what to use not for the patient to inform the Dr. of trying something they saw on an advertisement. .
Oh as far as the marketing by the tobacco companies, here is a site on you tube about the history of the tobacco products and it seems they have found a new marketing strategy for their products. It’s is now mainly marketed overseas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c25mqFtg6AA

[peglem]

by Mrs. Jerome:I always thought it was the Dr. recommendations for what to use not for the patient to inform the Dr. of trying something they saw on an advertisement.

That's what I used to do, and still do if the dr. is very knowledgeable about the issue. But, with my child, I find that it works better if I research the proper treatment myself and tell the doc what i want them to do. Too many shrugged shoulders when I just presented symptoms/problems for them to treat themselves.

[mrsjerome]

Peglem I know and feel for your frustrations. What I am mainly referring to is the commercialism of pharmaceuticals. These docs are getting paid the big bucks but unfortunately at times have no clue to what is going on. It is a good thing that you are up on some of the problems facing your child. I don’t know if you have received any of this knowledge though from the drug products advertised on TV. I bet it is through more of your own personal research

[Isabelle]

mrsj i saw your youtube about the selling of cigarettes, how can doctors fell for it? i understand the average people they believe doctors. now i saw the medicated child and brain matters, this is all like selling tobacco, the very same thing. the child goes to the child psychiatrist and every time he leaves his office get an increased and/or another drug....i feel for those poor children, one has developed a neck tic and is still on drugs. i saw a young child eating processed food not one but two it look like breaded hot dog??? and drinking gatorade? he is on several drugs included risperdal and the mother commented he can't stop eating.... i read sugar-free drinks has aspartame, which is a neurotoxic substance and studies observe that it causes bipolar symptoms like mood disorder and irritability and msg increases appetite and is associated with obesity. all the mothers were overweight....what's with that? msg causing metabolic disorders?

[The Pogue]

Thanks Dyslimbic for an excellent and interesting article on the common genetic link of autism and schitzophrenia.

[Isabelle]

pogue, why? are you saying that this article is a fact? or you agree with it and we have to be thankful...? what are you trying to say...
all the studies i read about psychiatric genes, they are all "provisional" or "depending in future technology" so nothing is written in stone. there is no way that this article prove any correlation between autism and schizophrenia based on variations around some genes that differ from autistic to autistic and from schizophrenic to schizophrenic....that's way too vague.

[Keggy]

I have always felt, or understood that there must be a correlation between autism and schizophrenia. I wonder though, since there appear to be different types of autism and different types of schizophrenia that those differences make the difference.

Although, I have two clients with both dx at the moment and I see them as vastly different. I can't help but suspect it was medication and/or institutionilzation that made them schizophrenic. Autism seems to me to be about a prebirth trauma of some sort, and schizophrenia (appears) to be an adolescent or adult psychological trauma (of some sort) from what I see.

[LauraP]

Keggy--ok, I really don't get this. You are a practicing professional in the world of clinical psychology, and you believe that institutionalization made your clients schizophrenic?

Am I reading this correctly?:confused:

[Isabelle]

I have always felt, or understood that there must be a correlation between autism and schizophrenia. I wonder though, since there appear to be different types of autism and different types of schizophrenia that those differences make the difference.

Although, I have two clients with both dx at the moment and I see them as vastly different. I can't help but suspect it was medication and/or institutionilzation that made them schizophrenic. Autism seems to me to be about a prebirth trauma of some sort, and schizophrenia (appears) to be an adolescent or adult psychological trauma (of some sort) from what I see.

keggy, I thought science separated them long time ago. in my son's case i can tell you for sure my son was a medical error, made worse by vaccines and drugs, risperdal almost killed my son. perhaps the similarities between "autism" and "schizophrenia" is that in many cases there are gastrointestinal problems. by the way mitochondria also has gi problems....

about an autistic being schizophrenic, psychotic or bipolar.
you are right in suspecting meds and institutionalization, more importantly abuse by some staff.
i have observed how these behaviour control drugs make some autistics behave crazy and violent; or psychotic; or schizophrenic; or bipolar (i, honestly, don't see a bit of difference between them) the fact is that their behaviour become erratic, they become self-injurious and suddenly attack staff, family and peers in a state of out of it.
i found them sleeping long hours 18/20, they behave zombie-like, and shuffling/pacing around when awake and even more dangerous.
in my son's case he attacked me after interrupting his repetitive action he was doing for hours. another guy in large amounts of drugs grabbed me by the hair, at another moment i got him off of a staff....
after risperdal was introduced as "treatment" of the autistics' "psychosis" the home went from crisis to crisis, police was there almost 2x month, every week somebody was in the er getting treatment, stitches, whatever, them and/or staff. of course, there are those that put on weight fast from 180 to almost 300 lbs, which is still dangerous because of hyperglycemia and diabetes.
very tragic and sad,

[The Pogue]

Isabelle - I am appreciative of the interesting, informative articles that Dyslimbic posts. However, I am not implying that you or anyone else should share my gratitude. As to whether I agree, that is irrelevant. I have no interest in debating the matter with you or anyone else. Carry on.

[sheldon]

From what I understand, there's been a lot of discussion among medical professionals about how schizophrenia and bipolar disorder can overlap in some cases, despite the two being recognized as distinct disorders. Can someone clarify?

[The Pogue]

Different manifestations of a particular protein sequence on the same gene.

[Isabelle]

From what I understand, there's been a lot of discussion among medical professionals about how schizophrenia and bipolar disorder can overlap in some cases, despite the two being recognized as distinct disorders. Can someone clarify?

what i observed is that people dx with schizophrenia, some of them for decades, all of the sudden got a new dx: 'bipolar'. such a feeling of relief for some of my friends whose child/children were dx with schizophrenia...."they are not crazy, they are bipolar, they have a mood disorder!!", so i said, "glad to hear the good news what's the treatment?".... the answer: "the same" or "he is being taken off of haldol and given a new drug"...name? "risperdal" and, of course, he needs to stay on three others drugs, cogentin, valproic acid, celexa and prn, ativan....but their children are not crazy !!!!

[Keggy]

Keggy--ok, I really don't get this. You are a practicing professional in the world of clinical psychology, and you believe that institutionalization made your clients schizophrenic?

Am I reading this correctly?:confused:

Yes, reading correctly, my thinking.

Like I said.. I believe that schizophrenia is brought on by a trauma during childhood or adolescence. I believe that being institutionalized in these settings are so traumatic that over a period of years persons can develop schizophrenia.

I feel very strongly that we need these hospitals, but also that there needs to be changes made in the way these facilities operate to help people not get sicker.

[Isabelle]

Yes, reading correctly, my thinking.

Like I said.. I believe that schizophrenia is brought on by a trauma during childhood or adolescence. I believe that being institutionalized in these settings are so traumatic that over a period of years persons can develop schizophrenia.

I feel very strongly that we need these hospitals, but also that there needs to be changes made in the way these facilities operate to help people not get sicker.

just to be confined? or also chemically restrained with anti psychotics, drugs which are known to make people psychotic if they didn't have the disorder to begin with?

[The Pogue]

It's certainly true that persons' mental state can deteriorate when they are institutionalized, but mentally healthy people tend not to get institutionalized in the first place. Especially not for a period of years. Think about that one. How many functioning individuals wake up and say "I think I'll withdraw from society for an extended period of time. Let's find a psychiatrist to admit me to a hospital, where I can watch other residents rock and bang their heads all day long, hear them scream, and smell their stale urine 24/7?

Schitzophrenia usually has its onset in adolescence, but the precursors are present from a very early age. This has been documented since long before the days of medications. Consider the original term for the disorder, "Dementia Praecox", which means dementia of adolescence. It's also the one of the most well-established genetically-based mental disorders. Twin studies have conclusively shown the genetic origin.

As difficult as it is for physically ill people to get admitted to a hospital, I don't exactly see insurance companies jumping through hoops to pay for non-psychotic individuals admitted to institutions and given expensive medications. Indeed, it's danged near impossible to get emergency commitments for dangerously mentally ill persons, and most states limit those to 48-72 hours. Hence the presence of homeless on our city streets, and the revolving door phenomena of the inadequate treatment centers.

[Keggy]

I couldn't say what exactly caused it.. but I would have to think being confined. Its not just being confined though. Think about this... next weekend someone tells you to wake up on saturday morning, eat this for breakfast (you have a few minutes and no say over what that is) Now take your shower, get dressed, do this, do this, do this, go to bed.
This is your day Sunday and Monday, and Tuesday and Wednesday.
About now you are feeling a bit frustrated. Think what that is like after a month, or 6 months or 18 years. Cabin fever in the worst form.

I have worked with children who are hospitlized for years since they were very young for behavior issues, who are showing schizophrenic tendencies in adolescence. (Gotta run...)

Pogue, we don't see homeless in our area anymore. We used to see plenty but they seemed to have vanished. Wonder where did they went.

[dyslimbic]

It's certainly true that persons' mental state can deteriorate when they are institutionalized, but mentally healthy people tend not to get institutionalized in the first place.


I was first hospitalised when i was just over 18 and from 18-25 spent a number of spells either in one or other of the psychiatric units attached to the general hospital or the main psychiatric hospital itself.
It had to said that there wasn't much effort to provide skills to help you cope better and the general attitude if you were given a dx of schizophrenia(as i initially was) was take the pills and forget about working .
I became ill while at an English public school and like a lot of young men who got ill had little or no clue about day to day skills such as shopping/budgeting/cooking etc.
These things were not taught me in hospital.By the time of my last stay which lasted for about 2 years i was being earmarked for an eventual place on a chronic/long stay ward.
I had by that time become quite unmotivated thanks in no small part to getting very little in the way of motivation or indeed those coping skills to manage outside(by that time living with my father in the family home was not an option as it had been sold)
I eventually left hospital with my late wife in 1983 and for the first few years i had to hang on to coat tails re learning off her, by being shown and by watching, certain skills needed for independent living.
I have no doubt if i had not met her and she had not been there to care and motivate me i would have ended up in that long stay ward and eventually when they started to move care into the community in a group home.

Now i do not live a high powered existence for example i have never worked due to illness or more pertinently lack of help with those things that affected my ability to work but i do have the skills to get by alibi in a way that might seem fairly low functioning to someone who hasn't had a long term serious mental illness.Comparatively speaking i have moved several notches up the
scale from the level of functioning i had sunk to at one time.

Perhaps my biggest problem is that of social isolation i do not find it easy to make friends and outside of groups at my local mh centre and a weekly visit to my mother's have little other contact with other people.
Part of this being due to social anxiety and part it has to be said due to the fact that i am one of these people who does not find it easy to make small talk or initiate conversations. The other person has to lead and then i follow presuming i feel secure enough with them to do so. If they dry up as even normal people can do then kick starting things again myself is difficult.
I am one of those people who is better at conversation centred round opinions and facts than casual conversation.

[The Pogue]

Thanks Dyslimbic for sharing your touching story.

Keggy - with all due respect, that still begs the question why the children were hospitalized in the first place. You said "behavior problems". I assume it's something more serious than farting in church or throwing tantrums in the grocery store. Probably extreme behaviors, like attacking a sibling with scissors, throwing the baby out the window, setting the house on fire...
If a tiny child's behavior is so extreme that the parents have to hospitalize - every parent's absolute last resort, AND it turns out to be long-term, there's surely some psychoses driving the behavior in the first place. I dont doubt at all that some get worse in institutions, but the environment itself does not create schitzophrenia. The "trauma theory" of schitzophrenia was debunked decades ago, along with the "double bind" and "refrigerator mother" theories.

[Keggy]

I have worked with kids (in a different facility) who were dumped there by their families. I remember a number of kids who were really great and did not commit anything worthy of being hospitalized. They are in with other kids who have committed crimes, which makes for quite a learning experience.
Some of these kids had no issues that we saw while they were hospitilized. For example, I remember one child in particular who was there for almost a year, sweetest kid.... no behavior problems. His mother was overwhelmed when the boys father died, put him in the hospital immediately ... felt he was depressed, didn't visit. The boy eventually went to a foster placement. I won't go into details, but he went through some horrible things while being hospitlized that will stay with him the rest of his life.

I think you have to witness and feel what it is like to be in this enviornment, to apreciate how traumatic it really is.
But to be fair, how traumatic it is really depends of the facility you are in, who your particular staff is, what services you get, who is on your ward, your medications, why you are there, and most importantly how much time you spend living in the facility.

We get crazed being stuck in an elevator or stuck in traffic. Being in the hospital is similar to being in prison, the difference is, is that in prison you might have a better idea when you can get out.

There was a study several years back, don't have access to it... but it was a group of psychology students who were checked into a facility acting crazy, and once in acted normal. When they were interviewed and seen by staff over the days that followed (while acting normal) the persons who were writing notes on them made reports that reflected bizzarre behaviors. Had they not had a way out, they wouldn't have gotten out til they were stabilized with medication, since the staff didn't see them as any different than any other patients.

Listen, there are lots of clinical reasons to be sent to a psych hospital. But even if you are diagnosed as borderline, bi polar, autistic, or any other disorder and you are hospitilized it dosn't mean there is a natural progression to schizophrenia. yet are hospitalized are filled with people with this dx who may not have started with it.

[Isabelle]

like in the story of "finding normal"
yes, dyslimbic is describing the basic lack of common sense dealing with the supposedly 'mentally ill' and that was looong time ago but the same mentality still persist....seek mental disorders in 'normal' people behaviours, no matter how, as that study keggy mentioned. "treat" them until they are out of their minds to justify their "treatment".
the same goes with the developmental delayed or the autistic, poor things! they only have their "behaviours" to communicate and hey! if somebody is there watching them as lab rats to find mental illnesses, they will.... no doubt about it :(:mad: i saw that !