Can I get your take on this?

[RDeyes]

We had a really bad night friday, I insisted Theo come to this circus thing with us, insisted he would be fine and enjoy himself, after he pleaded not to go, he hates circuses, (I don't remember his ever being at a circus, though)
anyway, I forced him to go with us, (his brothers and grandmother and I).
The entire way there he compalined, saying he would hate it, we all tried to encourage him, when we got there, it was not so much a circus as a small circus with a fair attached, I had this experience before, the circus is kind of a lackluster thing with hula hoop shows, and they make all the money with the other stuff (hence the complimentary circus tickets!)
Theo refused to go into the animal area before the circus tent, complaining of the smell, so I kept an eye on him and stayed close to the entrance.
Then he refused to go in the tent area with averyone else, I did finally get him in there, but soon he was running out, I had to go after him and leave the rest of the family, and talk to him, I got to the point I threatened to ground him his games when he got home, at which point he went back in, but then was punching himself and started scratching bloody holes into the top of his hands. So, I started motioning to the other kids to come down from the bleachers, and then got his grandmother who was sitting in front because she could not go up steps, we went out of the circus area and then he started to feel remorseful for ruining things, and apologizing. I felt horrible for forcing him to go, and for threatening. It was loud in there, there was clapping, smells, clowns, just the type of thing to creep a lot of people out.
After that, he was fine, he was obviously trying really hard to be cooperative and even cheerful when I got them some balls to throw at the goldfish bowls. He was nice on the way home, too. He didn't go on any rides with his brothers, but did go on the merry go-round.
DH was home from work when we got home, and I told hom about the whole thing, and that I was scared because this was the first time in while that I had not been strong, and almost broke into tears right in front of him, and he said "but, you shouldn't be surprised, you should brace yourelf for that the moment you walk out the door with him when he's not happy" (meaning when he doesn't want to go.)
So the question is, I am starting to worry whether I should have forced him in the first place. In hindsight, he would have been 'safer' at home alone, than somewhere he obvioulsy hated, hitting himself and scratching himself. If he got scared he could have called his dad at work or something.
I leave him home alone for this same reason a lot, but not at night and not for three hours, but I am really starting to wonder about the sensibility of this.
In the past, I have also forced him to go to family outings, if he has a bad time we get through it, then be thankful he did have SOME good time and concentrate on that, and keep reminding him of that. I usually talk to him again at bedtime about the good stuff and don't mention the bad...
Starting to rethink this practice, if only to avoid the very KNOWABLE bad times. Someone in the family has already argued that I should never have taken him in the first place, but isn't that just furthering avoidance of certain things.... or is it allowing someone to make decisions for themselves when they believe they are fine alone? His is 11 now, so maybe it is time. I just don't know.... Anyone have any input?

[rbear4]

I wish I did have input. This whole thing gave me an eery icky feeling inside because it was like reading my own life and I never know what to do about it. Mike is 12 and very much the same way particularly about new things that may be loud, uncertain, etc. A trip to the store during the day time, sure we will leave him alone for an hour in front of his video games. I make him have the phone near him so I can call. As long as he doesn't have any demands on him or expectations it seems to go fine. But I probably wouldn't leave him for the 3 hours alone at night either but at what cost?

I honestly never know. On one hand I think sometimes it is important to push a bit out of the comfort zone. Mostly because that is the only way Mike experiences new things that he actually ends up enjoying. On the other hand I sometimes I think I push too hard and then it all goes to pot and it ends up all kinds of bad.

I don't think there is an answer. I think you love your boy to pieces and tried your darndest to do what you felt was right. I think on any given day that is all we can do and sometimes we make the right call and some times we don't and we just keep trying.

[RDeyes]

I honestly never know. On one hand I think sometimes it is important to push a bit out of the comfort zone. Mostly because that is the only way Mike experiences new things that he actually ends up enjoying.



OMG I needed to hear that from someone else... thanks for that!

[LIZARD]

I think you have to walk a fine line here. Yes, he should be gradually encouraged to get out of his comfort zone, but it should be done very gradually over time. Having had my own SID issues all my life, I can imagine that a rowdy circus was probably way too much stimulation for him.

How verbal is he? Can he tell you everything about what he feels like? Drew will say something like, "It makes my head too busy." It isn't a lot to go on, but it gets the point across.

Good luck...

LIZARD :)

[Keggy]

I don't know your son well enough to say he should be home alone... I doubt that I would say he should be. But, he should not be made to do things like this. The real reason why we do these activites is for fun (and learning). He isn't having fun, and what he is learning is that he has no say or control of what he does. That is not what you want him to learn.

If he had never expereinced this circus what would he have lost? I work with people who have little control over their life, which is the norm with people with disabilities. You do not want to teach him that he has no control over what he does!! In order for him to want things he has to come to want too try it himself.

My dd is 18 now. Just a week ago had her first slice of baloney. She would never try it before, she has never eaten a traditional sandwich. Now she loves baloney.

As a mom you need to decide whether allowing your son some autonomy is less important than learning culture. In my mind, our culture is important but our sense of self is even more important.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

This is SO far out of my area of expertise with Coley only being 5, but I TOTALLY understand your dilemma because even at 5 he is very strong willed and set in his ways...

Having said that, I HATE the circus, the smells, the poor animals, the cheap toys, the choas, the creepy people.....

I wonder if you couldn't find some 'other' things to push him out of his comfort zone that aren't so, what's the word, intense? I do think pushing is good, I don't think it's good to puch TOO hard, and I am no where near knowing when a kid is ready to be alone.

I think your intentions are right, but maybe for something where he is SO dead set against it that maybe there be a little flexibility...maybe next family outing he could choose? I'm sure there's a way to expand his experiences without sending him over the edge, or the rest of the family into a tizzy. Can't be fun for the rest to have to worry about him verus enjoying themselves, ya?

[peglem]

Allie is not anywhere near the point where home alone is an option, but the "the rest of the family can't do something because of Allie" is a constant. Usually I stay home with her and the rest of the family goes...no wonder I'm such a hermit. The other scenario...she wants to go, but can't handle it when we get there- always need an escape plan.

Maybe this time pushing to go wasn't the right thing...but, perhaps something good can still come out of it if you can get theo to talk about it.

[milivica]

>>>>>So the question is, I am starting to worry whether I should have forced him in the first place. In hindsight, he would have been 'safer' at home alone, than somewhere he obvioulsy hated, hitting himself and scratching himself.

I think if you'd have known that he was going to react that way, you wouldn't have forced him. Often, forcing a new experience can turn out to be a positive experience that you can build on, but, there's a difference between forcing what he can handle and what will overwhelm him. With Vince too. And sometimes I don't see that fine line until Vince shows me I overwhelmed him, at which time I back off. You hoped this would be one of those experiences that turned out positive, when he showed you it was beyond what he could do, you sort of reassembled your priority and challenge for him, motioned the other kids down and went out of that area, you shifted your objective (RDI talk) and then he did maintain.

>>>>>we went out of the circus area and then he started to feel remorseful for ruining things, and apologizing. I felt horrible for forcing him to go, and for threatening.

(((((That just breaks my heart to pieces for both of you.))))) If there's one thing autism does for EVERY CHILD AND ADULT, is reinforces their incompetence, over and over and over we just fail fail fail, fail at what everyone else can do. And we know it, and we don't mean to, and it seems absolutely everything ends in our failure. I just hate autism for this reason as well as what it does to the parent, the feelings of guilt, the feelings of incompetence for not just the child but the parent. I have felt it from both ends, from being on the spectrum, and parenting a child on the spectrum. Sometimes I really don't realize how hard he's trying, till he fails at something he couldn't help, then he feels so remorseful, and I feel like the worst parent in the world for him feeling bad about something so stupid that I tried to make him do. (it was this way in the past for us allllll the time).


>>>>>In the past, I have also forced him to go to family outings, if he has a bad time we get through it, then be thankful he did have SOME good time and concentrate on that, and keep reminding him of that. I usually talk to him again at bedtime about the good stuff and don't mention the bad...

That's sort of reinforcing positive episodic memories, that's great. You are modeling that for him, that is RDI too. If he can have both bad and good moments, but be able to pull the good from it with your help - then that is great. That is not at all a forte, with autism. Though most people can use help with this, asd's especially need help leaving every encounter or experience with a positive note. When you can do that, you want to be engaged with others more, in new activities with new people more, cause you didn't fail - you are building a positive 'trail' in your mind, of success and competence.

>>>>>Starting to rethink this practice, if only to avoid the very KNOWABLE bad times.

So much of these 'bad times' are cause he's not forming positive emotional memories, ya know? It's about what he DID or SAW but not what you guys shared, and that's autism ya know?

>>>>>Someone in the family has already argued that I should never have taken him in the first place,

Love that 20/20 hindsight thrown in my face to let me know I was wrong, grrr.

>>>>>but isn't that just furthering avoidance of certain things....

Until he can gain positive emotional memories of the things he now avoids, simply bringing him to places and events may enable him to 'tolerate' them better, but not to enjoy them. See what I mean?

>>>>>or is it allowing someone to make decisions for themselves when they believe they are fine alone? His is 11 now, so maybe it is time. I just don't know.... Anyone have any input?

If he can handle being home alone, for things you know he won't be able to handle, I don't think 11 is too young. Especially if you have back up plans for him, like a neighbor you could rely on for him to call or go to, if he panics.

I won't even say the three letters that might make you poke your eyeballs out, but when he has a secure relationship with you as his guide because he understands he can reference you for information like how he should feel and act, when he is able to be your willing apprentice, when he can have fun sharing emotion no matter where you are or what you're doing, you and he won't have this issue anymore. Imagine putting an nt child, in a circus tent with no people, but only robots and machines from which that child can get no guidance, or feedback on what they should feel, how they should feel, what they should do. That might be a bit how your son felt, sure would be how I would have felt - I don't know how to describe a world to you, that is devoid of guidance cause it's devoid of feedback cause you can't read people at all - he could not even use you for that guidance - you are a willing guide for sure, he is not a willing apprentice due to his neurology (not by choice). Nt kids are willing apprentices by neurology, not by choice. A nt child does not choose to be comforted or guided by their mother during times of uncertainty, they don't learn this, it's in their nt nature. You and your son are trying to navigate all day everyday without this.

Back to the circus...ever do something you hated with someone you like, and it turns out you have a blast...when he can do that, you can take him anywhere, and he'll be able to not only handle and tolerate it, but enjoy it - not cause he likes (for instance) the circus, but cause he's enjoying all the social interactions he is experiencing as well as the social interactions he's watching (like some kid screaming on a ride and him being thankful he didn't go on that ride). Ever clasp your mother's hand and know that as long as she was with you, you were safe. When he can do that, he can go anywhere with you, and it will be the start of him being able to go anywhere and do anything without you yet still feel that safety. Vince can do that now, but in the past he used me more as a human shield, not an emotional guide...know what I mean? Like my body was an object that literally blocked what he was unsure of or scared of, my guidance or emotional feedback with him was zero.

Is that all to cryptic or stupidly worded? I hope I made sense. Really that one line you said, that I put in bold with ((( ))) just choked me up. I rarely say this, but I really really really hate autism, I really do. It takes far too much and gives little in return. My kid doesn't want to be a savant or weather expert, he wants to have friends buzz by the house on their bikes, and ask him to ride too, and share all those boy things together like farts and boogars and spitting and doing all that physical stuff so on.

[LauraP]

Mili--not at all. In fact, I do think that at least at a certain age, kids feel that it's required of them to balk and complain, even NT kids. I remember it was physical agony to go places--even fun places that I knew I would like--with my family, and I probably made all those trips hell for the rest of the family. I mean, how can you complain about going to King's Dominion, or horseback riding in New Mexico, or to a lake in New England? They were all a thousand times better than my dad's usual Saturday routine, which was up at 8 a.m. and weeding the yard of dandelions (too cheap to use Roundup, I guess, though in retrospect, it was more eco-friendly!) and power-washing the deck (did you know that if you turn a power-washer on your sister's leg, you can actually rout a trough in it? I discovered that one of those Saturday mornings, and still feel awful about it!).

So yeah, I can see not wanting to do something even if you think it would be a blast, because it means changing your routine, being with your square parents for a car, etc. His reaction was HIS way of showing displeasure, whereas an NT kid might totally tune out, or complain the WHOLE trip (ahem--I resemble that remark), or torture a sibling.

I also think that, even under perfect circumstances, we try things as parents out of total love for our kids, and they don't work out. All we can do is try to not let them get us bitter.

This week, we've been watching the DVD's of a TV show that probably nobody but we saw, "Dead Like Me". It is painfully funny (and poignant) to watch the mother of the show's protagonist interact with her daughter (in flashback, since she is now deceased) and her younger child, who is really an obstinate and somewhat broken kid in a lot of ways. and to see from DH's and Rhi (my older daughter's) perspectives how the different scenarios are viewed--each of us sees a different rationale for the characters' behaviors. Very much like "Rashomon" or the Bergman film (can't remember it--Persona, maybe?) where the same situation is presented from the perspective of each of the participants, and the view is radically shifted. My guess is that our kids, NT and ASD alike, are all experiencing this--they see a car ride completely differently than we do. To a kid, it's a fun trip with mom; to a teenager, it's a mobile torture chamber where you are OMG, TRAPPED with mom in the car and she's interrogating you about things, and you go to this lame place (the Mall,yeah) and she wants to see you try on clothes, and your classmates might see you WITH YOUR MOM!!! To a sensory kid, it's a traumatic upset from his controlled environment to a place that is NOTHING but sensory overload, loud people, unfamiliar places, weird clowns (I hate them too), smells, temperature shifts, stuff that you see out of the corner of your eye, too much activity.

The other thing is that, despite my complaints at the time (how my dad didn't leave me at the Finger Lakes in NY is a miracle--I complained for 2 weeks straight!), I did enjoy the trip and had a great time. The boyfriend that I was so weepy about missing is long since gone on to other adventures, and so have I, and the memory of the trip is much richer than a teenage crush. So, despite the behavior, there might be a kernel of a good memory in there. Give yourself some slack on this!

Hang in there!

[RDeyes]

Wowww... these are all such great replies, thank you so much. I read these posts and then deciided to talk to him about it again, about not having to go certain places, and also see if he remembered it differently after a couple of days.
I started out by telling him I thought i made a mistake Friday night by making him go, because he had a terrible time, then he said it was half his fault because he was acting like and 'idiot', (should he feel this way?) then told me he liked the games, and that next time he is going to do the balloon darts. Next time... huh? I said next time you don't have to go, I am feeling bad that I made you go in the first place, then he said 'well, it's not the worst thing you did...'
So I asked what was worse and then he said he couldnn't remember, just like he would forget the carnival too. :( I asked if he remembered the time I took him to his brother's band concert... he hated that, to the point I had to take him outside the building, and I missed my son's performance so it was a lose lose situation for everyone.
He said, "Oh, that's one of those worse things I was talking about"
So I thought about it, and realize there is a difference now, this concert thing was over two years ago, and he stayed so mad about it he would bring it up every week, and kept saying I damaged his ears by bringing him to a concert, and it was a good excuse for him to get out of pretty much everything we wanted him to do for a long time.
But now, he is defferent... he it is not claiming the bad situation was all my fault, sort of taking half the responsibility, and not saying he has a horrible life because we took him to a carnival.
I went on to tell him some of the places and things he likes now that he used to hate, and then when we were done talking about it, he says that I shouldn't be worried, and says "everybody makes mistakes... you can't expect to be perfect"
OMG! :D

[RathyKay]

Allie is not anywhere near the point where home alone is an option, but the "the rest of the family can't do something because of Allie" is a constant. Usually I stay home with her and the rest of the family goes...no wonder I'm such a hermit. The other scenario...she wants to go, but can't handle it when we get there- always need an escape plan.
This is pretty close to Tom. Actually, a lot of time, we do the two-car method and when Tom has enough, one of us will leave with him. It also depends on $$$. When the movie Curious George came out, I pushed for all of us to go and Tom barely made it through the opening credits. (Of course, that also includes the previews for the other movies, too.) Anyway, Mr. Kay left with him on that one, because I call kid movie privileges.:p But, it did feel like a total waste of $$$. I've since taken Claire and Samantha to other movies, and I feel bad for leaving Tom at home (with Mr. Kay). I think Tom gets a little disappointed too, but I don't think the outcome would be any different than for Curious George.

Claire's play is quickly coming up and I'm trying to decide if I should pay to have Tom come with us. If I do buy him a ticket, then at least one of us will see it twice so that there's no hard feelings over leaving early with Tom. (Escape plan.;))

Anyway, sounds like Theo is making some good progress there! Are you doing that three letter word thing that Mili is always writing about...that's very similar to your name?:p

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Well THAT was an awesome reply!!!!!! I am SO proud of Theo!!!! WTG!

I wonder though WHY he feels like he was being an idiot...certainly we can figure out which behaviors were inappropriate so it kinda seems like a dumb question...but I'm wondering how much of it was purposeful and how much wasn't...like was he tantruming (in my mind acting idiotic or babyish really) or was he on sensory or emotional overload and unable to control his impulses?

Hmmmm...maybe it started as a tantrum and he lost control????

Anyhoo, it might be hard to bring it up again, but if you find the opportunity I'd definately talk to him about WHY he feels like he was being an idiot. Particularly since if he was out of control he shouldn't feel guilty or dumb (like you said). But wouldn't it be cool to find out that it was an act (or even partially) and that he could do better, easily??? I mean if he's talking about going again, that doesn't seem to me like he's feeling like he lost control (even a little), ya know?

[RDeyes]

I wonder though WHY he feels like he was being an idiot...certainly we can figure out which behaviors were inappropriate so it kinda seems like a dumb question...but I'm wondering how much of it was purposeful and how much wasn't...like was he tantruming (in my mind acting idiotic or babyish really) or was he on sensory or emotional overload and unable to control his impulses?



I don't know, now that I think about it, maybe he was being manipulative and used self-injury, because he knows from past experience I tend to freak out and cave to his demands.
Either way, if you have to threaten someone with bodily harm to get your way, then the thing you are trying to avoid must be really painful. So, I don't know if manipulation should matter or not.
I think it's a big deal that he has finally taken some responsibility for these actions, in the past it was always 100% someone else's fault, and also he would not even acknowledge that it is wrong to self-injure, so there are two new things going on here.
Three, if you count that he finally listened to something I have been trying to drill into him since second grade, that it's okay to make mistakes. He used one of my methods of making him feel better right back at me.
I may be wrong, but I think this is good that he felt a little guilty, how else do you know to stop doing something? Since then he has referred to it as his 'gasket problem' so he doesn't feel like an idiot, just someone who blew a gasket.
Maybe he can graduate to throwing things like his big brother, who today had a gasket problem over dishes, stomped away, threw a bottle of glue, and the cap popped off and it was all over the floor and tv cabinet... AGHHHH!

[RDeyes]

Claire's play is quickly coming up and I'm trying to decide if I should pay to have Tom come with us. If I do buy him a ticket, then at least one of us will see it twice so that there's no hard feelings over leaving early with Tom. (Escape plan.;))


You know, that is so good, having the forethought like this. It sure beats hoping everything goes fine and being dissappointed, because that conveys to the whole family. I have to count my blessings that the other kids did not say a word about 'we need to get out of this tent now' but I really got to give kudos to grama for keeping her mouth shut this time!

[milivica]

Wowww... these are all such great replies, thank you so much. I read these posts and then deciided to talk to him about it again, about not having to go certain places, and also see if he remembered it differently after a couple of days.
I started out by telling him I thought i made a mistake Friday night by making him go, because he had a terrible time, then he said it was half his fault because he was acting like and 'idiot', (should he feel this way?) then told me he liked the games, and that next time he is going to do the balloon darts. Next time... huh? I said next time you don't have to go, I am feeling bad that I made you go in the first place, then he said 'well, it's not the worst thing you did...'
So I asked what was worse and then he said he couldnn't remember, just like he would forget the carnival too. :( I asked if he remembered the time I took him to his brother's band concert... he hated that, to the point I had to take him outside the building, and I missed my son's performance so it was a lose lose situation for everyone.
He said, "Oh, that's one of those worse things I was talking about"
So I thought about it, and realize there is a difference now, this concert thing was over two years ago, and he stayed so mad about it he would bring it up every week, and kept saying I damaged his ears by bringing him to a concert, and it was a good excuse for him to get out of pretty much everything we wanted him to do for a long time.
But now, he is defferent... he it is not claiming the bad situation was all my fault, sort of taking half the responsibility, and not saying he has a horrible life because we took him to a carnival.
I went on to tell him some of the places and things he likes now that he used to hate, and then when we were done talking about it, he says that I shouldn't be worried, and says "everybody makes mistakes... you can't expect to be perfect"
OMG! :D

Woah, that was really a fabulous talk. If you can have more like that, sharing one another's thoughts and feelings, what you were thinking when 'this' happened and what he was thinking when he said or did 'this'. It's so hard when because of your autism, pretty much the END of everything happens when you screw it up, cause you're an idiot and can't do anything right. Or, you think your actions were in no way your responsibility cause if 'so and so' didn't do 'this' I wouldn't have had to do 'that'. Ugh.

I really love the talk you guys had.

I have an idea, we need to start a thread on a nightly journal kids and moms can fill out with the purpose of highlighting all the GOOD parts of the day. See? To help train the asd mind as well as the mommy mind to focus and pick out positives.

Like one question could be "what was the funnest thing today" and if that's too vague it could be "the funnest at school during recess"...down to the last question every night can be "What are you most looking forward to tomorrow."