Is refusal basically a controlled tantrum?

[tgrimes]

I was wondering if refusal could be considered a tantrum - whether it is refusal to do work, refusal to engage in an activity, etc... just wondering your thoughts...

[peglem]

My opinion- I think refusal and defiant behaviors are different than tantrums and my child has both. Let me qualify that. My child's tantrums seem to be beyond her control. They just happen, often without any apparent external trigger. Defiance and noncompliance just seem to be her way of trying to have some control or choice in her life. In fact, often, when given a choice over how she will perform a task, her defiance is diffused. Like with her homework (almost always practicing spelling words) she can choose to do it on the computer, with her aug comm device or hand over hand with her choice of marker. She doesn't get to choose whether or not she will do it- just how. Hope that answers your question. I'm not sure of the circumstances surrounding the question in your case.

[matika]

I think refusal is more of a willing act then tantrums are. When I think of how I feel when i am frustrated, I feel like that would be more of a tantrum then simply making my choice of not to do something. Two different things.
When I compare that with my kids, it sees to go hand on hand.
Joshua is a tantrum boy, he takes fits and will fall on the ground and kick and his face shows such frustration. Like when he can't do something, or find something or things go wrong.
refusal comes with maturity. I think that is why babies are more prone to having tantrums then older kids, but in our kids case, maturity is distorted in ways, because even as they aquire skills, to refuse to do something by thinking 'this is not what I want to do' takes practice. As a tantrum been 'OH NO NOT AGAIN, I DON'T BELIVE IT OH MY GOD" well that is the way I read Joshua's tantrums lol, the world just crumbles around him.
well not sure if I made sence with all my rambling.

matika

[LIZARD]

I think refusal is more of a willing act than tantrums are.

I agree, and it's actually very normal behavior. Think about when any of you were kids. Didn't you boldly refuse to do certain things once in a while? I was a goody-two-shoes (believe it or not! :D ), and I remember situations when I resisted authority. It's just human nature to be obstinant occasionally. Tantrums, by contrast, are (at least in my observation) more of a byproduct of frustration.

My $.02 (which I needed a loan to give! :D )

LIZARD :)

[cckids]

Refusal would be different from a tantrum, unless--the refusal is accompanied by withdrawl. Most clinicians consider refusal, in most situations to be more of a defiance or limit testing sort of behavior. In other situations, it is attention seeking. At times, refusal- well to rephrase- refusal followed by compliance- can be a significant sign of transition problems. We've worked on this using visual schedules and insignificant transition objects.

Tantrums are characterized by being out of control, but many kids do throw controlled tantrums to seek out attention or again push limits.

[tgrimes]

Well OK, so that's four people so far that say they are different... guess I'll have to go with that. I am doing a reinforcement schedule with my son right now and sometimes it seems a little unnatural, like maybe this isn't really defiance, maybe this is a compulsion for him to refuse everything before finally complying.
My son doesn't have rages or get physical anymore, but when he did it was usually preceeded by refusing to do something. Now the refusal is still a major concern, on occasion it is followed by a small tantrum, a negative rant, fixating, or in extreme cases self-injurious behavior.
The testing limits thing seems to be really close to what I mean, it is like what a toddler does, right? I just don't understant the clinical aspect of this:
You test the limit, you get the answer, you shouldn't have to test the same limits over and over for months or years. Is that maybe a compulsion, to test the same limits again and again?

What about refusal and running?

[Mother's Heart]

maybe it's just communication. Maybe he is communicating that you are insisting he do something he doesn't want to do. and when you refused to acquiesce to his refusal in the past he tried the next level, ie: rage/tantrum?

[tgrimes]

Yeah, that's basically it. He needs a lot of control - and like Peglem said earlier it is helpful to point out what he IS in control of, to ease things.
I guess regardless of what is the cause, reinforcement to cooperate is what I need to continue to use.
So I guess I'm on the right track I just need patience!

[cckids]

Testing limits is started as a toddler and I think that is when it is most obvious because it is a new behavior.
The defiant response many psychologists like to catagorize into ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). I hate seeing this diagnosis placed on ASD kids. Our five year old responds to almost every request with "NO." He'll wander aroudn while my hubbies cooking, complaining he's hungry. ONce the tables set---"Zach it's time for dinner." 70% of the time he throws himself on the floor screaming no, im not hungry, i don't like that, etc. About 1 minute later he stands up, comes to the table and chows down. "Mmm mmm that was so good." The other times he's waiting at the table for his food and gets upset just verbally when you put the food on his plate. I don't know why or what to call it, but he doesn't do it out of defiance. I think it is more communication related or the transition issues. He is resistive and defiant at the initiation of most things, but then he goes along with it.
Kids continue to test limits all there lives (so do adults). Frequently with our teens at work, the first 2 hours of the shift is irritating because they are pushing the limits to see if the staff person is going to be leniant or strict. Once consistent redirection is observed then they typically follow the rules and direction they are given.
I don't know if that helps--I feel like im starting to babble

[cckids]

Is that maybe a compulsion, to test the same limits again and again?

What about refusal and running?

Compulsion--I would tend to say no. Probably more of an impulse issue. Impulsiveness and poor communication seem to go hand in hand.

Refusal and running---I assume you mean that you are then in the position that you are chasing. Luckily, this seems to have cooled down in our house- but when he was 3-4 it was frequent. Finally the therapist that we worked with, helped us make a behavior plan. If Zach does ____ behavior then ____ will be the consequence. Print it out keep on the counter, so hubby and I could be consistent with each other and each behavior.

If he runs, defiantly---he was given one verbal warning- you need to come back here while I count to five or I am going to physically take you to time out. If he was running because he was supposed to go to time-out then the choice was coming back to time out or he was going to get held (on the ground, floor, or basket held if in public etc). If he didn't respond in that 5 seconds and begin his return, then the chase was on (yes i'm a normal out of shape mom, but i've always been able to catch him (pride goes out the window). When caught- holding him out flat, face down for 3-5 minutes or until he was calm and responsive. The only words exchanged would be regarding "I'm holding you on the ground because you ran away from me." After being held and was calm, then he'd have to take his time-out and apologize,etc.
If he returned then he gets the choice to give himself a time out or do whatever he was given directions to do earlier. and apologize for running.

This came to a head after he ran from the bus driver during a fire drill (March '06) , climbing two fences (ripping his shirt off) and crossing a field. What can the bus driver do---there's 12 other kids on the curb that she needed to put back on the bus before persuing him. His IEP now requires a 24 hour notice of fire drill so he can have alternative transportation planned.

Oh and I haven't had to chase him since August.

Our son also "runs-away" when he does something naughty, even if no one knows yet. (ex. dropped an egg in the kitchen, wrote on a wall, broke a siblings toy, etc.) Often if I cannot find him, I'll walk around shouting that what ever you did, I can forgive you, but you need to come out or I will call the police. If I can't find him within 30 minutes then I'll call. We're debating on getting a tether type device on him because he won't tell anyone where he goes or hides. He's done this at school also which is problematic.

[tgrimes]

cc- oh, I'm sorry you have had to deal with the running thing too. Well, this happenened only at school, back when he went full time and they were not able to say what set him off to running, so I don't know if it was defiant or scared. I'm just trying to get at what is the root cause for refusal, fear or lack of cooperation, (or both.)

I am so relieved to hear that the teens you work with test limits for the first couple of hours EVERY day! That is just the most frustrating thing for me and I was sure it was because I am too inconsistent or something, but if it's going on there where I'm sure things are pretty consistent, then I am not as worried anymore. Just goes to show how something very frustrating for you can be a real reassurance for someone else. THANKS!

[sardogwill]

As an all grown up and functional person on the spectrum, let me just say that refusal doesn't have to always be about power struggles or tantrums. Often, I feel the *seemingly* irrational need to refuse to do something because, in fact, there's something else going on.

Maybe I need a little more time to transition from what I'm currently doing to whatever I'm expected to do next. Sometimes it takes a bit longer to process the info into a meaningful form that I can respond to. Other times I may not be sure how I'm supposed to react, even if I've done it before. Conversations are especially difficult that way and I tend to repeat what the other person just said in order to give myself something of a buffer while I figure out what I'm supposed to say next.

Instead of flat out refusals or tantrums now, I've learned to verbalize that I need some time to wrap my head around whatever is giving me a hard time. But it took nearly 35 years to figure that out.

[silentmiaow]

It's hard to know what people are referring to, with either refusal or tantrums, so it's hard to know how to respond. Both words have a lot of implications beyond what exactly the act is.

For instance, what happens to autistic people when we get overloaded, many people call a "tantrum" but I don't, because tantrum often refers to something that kids do when they don't get their way, and it's not fair to lump that in with things like overload. They are for different reasons and have to be dealt with in different ways. Simply "not giving in to a child's demands" will not make a child less overloaded, for instance.

Similarly, refusal means, well, refusal -- it implies a particular set of motivations in whatever the person is doing. It's hard to know whether someone is referring to actual refusal to do something, or to inability to get started doing something, or to being able to do something sometimes and not others.

One time someone called the cops about me because I'd frozen somewhere in public, and they for a long time treated me as incapable of communicating anything (well, after they figured out I wasn't dead, which took them awhile), and then I was able to get moving barely enough to use a keyboard. I finally worked up enough energy to type a bit and got too tired to type anymore. So they radioed to someone that I was now "refusing" to type. No, not at all. But that's the sort of thing that could be considered refusal.

So can the sort of thing described on this website:

http://www.shutdownsandstressinautism.com/

And so many other things. So it's hard to know what you're talking about enough to respond, since both "refusal" and "tantrum" are words that can be both used and misused in so many ways.

[FoolsGold]

I was wondering if refusal could be considered a tantrum - whether it is refusal to do work, refusal to engage in an activity, etc... just wondering your thoughts...I am so struck by your question and the manner in which you have phrased it. I think perhaps you should examine just what you have said.

You seem to think that some autistic child should do something because YOU want them to do it or you have told them to do it. And while you happened to have used a somewhat neutral term of 'refusal' its clear that you are really focusing more on 'defiance' and are ready to use the term 'tantrum' so as even further degrade the autistic person's role of exercising control over their own actions.

The example you use of 'practicing spelling' is illustrative: it seems the child is more willing to do this in the manner that is more interesting, on a computer. The child is simply exercising a choice to engage in an activity on her own terms and of her own interest. Just as 'gaze avoidance' is often really a matter of a lack of eye contact that the examiner wants, so to is 'refusal' a matter of independence and personal autonomy. If you were dealing with a fourteen or fifteen year old teenager you would never think of 'tantrum' but would realize it was a normal and natural process of self assertion and independence, but you seem unable to adopt the same attitude when the child is much younger because you think that in a younger child it is inappropriate. If you said "have a nice time" to a teen age male he might well reply "don't tell me what to do" and while you would consider his response rude, you would realize it was an assertion of independence. Yet you seem unable to adopt the same viewpoint if the child is much younger. Yet to the autistic child there is no difference between the six year old and the sixteen year old.

[FoolsGold]

As an all grown up and functional person on the spectrum, let me just say that refusal doesn't have to always be about power struggles or tantrums. Often, I feel the *seemingly* irrational need to refuse to do something because, in fact, there's something else going on.

Maybe I need a little more time to transition from what I'm currently doing to whatever I'm expected to do next. Sometimes it takes a bit longer to process the info into a meaningful form that I can respond to. Its often hard for a parent to realize that a very young normal child should not be told 'come to dinner' but instead 'dinner will be ready in a few minutes' ... things like this are even more important for an autistic child even one who has difficulty understanding time. Its often the annoying interruption rather than the new task even though a non-austic person might not really find the interruption annoying or the new task unpleasant.

[LIZARD]

Sardogwill,

Thank you!! I am tremendously helped by what you said here, and thinking about it now, it makes sense to me. I know that autism involves processing issues, so all of what you said is a very helpful reminder. My son is 12 now and doesn't have nearly the problems he did even 6 months ago :), but there are still some "adolescent" behaviors (how much is the autism and how much is just being 12?? :confused: :o ), and they just have to be dealt with in any way we can deal with them, so any insight is a valuable thing. This really helps me. :)


'Preciate it!

LIZARD :)

[tgrimes]

I am so struck by your question and the manner in which you have phrased it. I think perhaps you should examine just what you have said.

You seem to think that some autistic child should do something because YOU want them to do it or you have told them to do it. And while you happened to have used a somewhat neutral term of 'refusal' its clear that you are really focusing more on 'defiance' and are ready to use the term 'tantrum' so as even further degrade the autistic person's role of exercising control over their own actions.



Fools Gold - I am talking about he type of refusal that renders you socailly at about age three, even though you are much older. The type of refusal that gets you a ticket out of KDG to the closest containment class, where you then learn agressive behaviors, after a year of which your mom is called to the school almost daily to calm a physical tantrum that started with 'refusal', or someone not "wording something just right" and gets you a record for battery on teachers. Refusal to put on clothes, shoes. Refusal to get in the car or on a school bus. Refusal to get out of the car. Refusal to participate in anything at school. Refusal that renders you unable to even live a happy childhood, even when you are bright and capable and just can't bring yourself to do it. After a couple of years of intervention calmy showing you how to control your arms and legs while angry, you are not physically agressive anymore, but possibly have what clinicians call 'dead man' effect in situations where there wasn't a replacement behavior, is it still considered a tantrum?
That's what I meant, thanks for the clarification.

[lisa6wks]

tgrimes,
Do you use a schedule for your child so that he/she knows what is coming next? Also could you give your child choices as to what happens next so that he/she feels they have some control over things?

Lisa

[LIZARD]

tgrimes,
Do you use a schedule for your child so that he/she knows what is coming next? Also could you give your child choices as to what happens next so that he/she feels they have some control over things?

Lisa

I second this wholeheartedly. We have used a schedule and behavioral plan with reward system for Drew for years, and it has done wonders. Consider it, if you haven't.

Good luck!

LIZARD :)

[tgrimes]

Lisa and Liz -
I tried a schedule a couple times last year, it frustrated him and he would rip them up (or cross out what was written and write 'video games'.) So I figured it wasn't worth frustrating him, but now I'm trying a reinforcement schedule, kind of like a star chart except in time increments, where he basically gets a star for every hour he goes without a real problem and yes, choices are a good idea, and do always help whenever asking him to do something academic.

[tgrimes]

... Other times I may not be sure how I'm supposed to react, even if I've done it before.

...Instead of flat out refusals or tantrums now, I've learned to verbalize that I need some time to wrap my head around whatever is giving me a hard time. But it took nearly 35 years to figure that out.

Those are really good points, thanks.

[tgrimes]

... what happens to autistic people when we get overloaded, many people call a "tantrum" but I don't, because tantrum often refers to something that kids do when they don't get their way, and it's not fair to lump that in with things like overload. They are for different reasons and have to be dealt with in different ways. Simply "not giving in to a child's demands" will not make a child less overloaded, for instance.

Similarly, refusal means, well, refusal -- it implies a particular set of motivations in whatever the person is doing. It's hard to know whether someone is referring to actual refusal to do something, or to inability to get started doing something, or to being able to do something sometimes and not others.

One time someone called the cops about me because I'd frozen somewhere in public, and they for a long time treated me as incapable of communicating anything (well, after they figured out I wasn't dead, which took them awhile), and then I was able to get moving barely enough to use a keyboard. I finally worked up enough energy to type a bit and got too tired to type anymore. So they radioed to someone that I was now "refusing" to type. No, not at all. But that's the sort of thing that could be considered refusal.

.

This is what I'm trying to get at, basically. I think in at least my son's case what we saw as kicking and screaming and running before and what we see as defiance now are basically the same thing, and a better word would be overwhelmed and he's is handling it better, but when this happens he's still feeling that horrible feeling inside (adrenaline) and all his attempts at getting out of the situation are simply self-preservation, just like before.
I read the site you listed... very true, but how many will accept this theory? Similar behavior without the sleeping thing is considered outright willful defiance by most people. And there is always the secondary diagnosis of ODD to attach to the spectrum diagnosis, but no ODD info would ever tell you to basically ease up on the poor kid.:(
In fact, this is the biggest problem with having anyone else work with my son... they don't get the defiance thing. Or even the autism thing. Heck, they dont' even believe the dx, in most cases now.

[silentmiaow]

It doesn't actually matter how many people understand what shutdown is (and the theory behind it may not be right -- it in fact sounds a little off to me -- but the real thing of shutdown exists regardless of what causes it, autistic people have been pointing it out for years, sometimes, yes, minus the sleeping): If shutdown is happening, it's a force of nature. It's not going anywhere regardless of how anyone sees it or responds to it. So I'm not sure what the point is about how people think of it -- if it's really what's going on, it's going to continue going on no matter what people think. It's like a seizure, there's no training people out of it, only teaching people how to prevent it and deal with it when it does happen.

I of course don't know if it's what's going on, but if it is what's going on, how many people in the world will accept it is as much a moot point in terms of its existence as how many people in the world will accept that seizures are not demonic possession. Shutdown will still happen, and seizures will still happen, whether anyone believes they're biological, psychological, demonic, imaginary, or caused by little green men.

[peglem]

"So I'm not sure what the point is about how people think of it"

The point is that if teachers and caregivers understand that this behavior is "a force of nature" they'll deal with it differently. Like you said, teach the child to deal with it instead of trying to extinguish it.

[silentmiaow]

Oh okay. I thought the person was saying something more like "Interesting theory but I don't know how many people will accept it," which, yeah, a lot of people might not accept it, but if it's what it is, then they're going to have to accept it sooner or later.

[snapdragon928]

I have tourettes and have these freeze tics and one of my fears is they will happen and it will be a long one and I won't be able to communicate. I have slow down tics too which eventually become freeze tics usually. On to the subject, Mys on will refuse alot of things also, and there isn't a whole lot you can do when it happens is there? He has a reason for refusing even though its not socially acceptable or what you can understand. And I guess it could be considered an item on the behavior chart at times when not due to overload. One thing my son will do is refuse to get on the bus with out certain items, The bus driver has said certain items, like an excessive amount of boxes or cars, can not come on the bus. This will lead to not riding the bus or a tantrum on the bus with self injury or a tantrum when I drop him off without items. He has a lot of problems with obsessive compulsive stuff. He will go into a store and refuse to leave until a particular item is purchased. Even if you let him pick it out, he will sometimes refuse to leave because he has changed his mind or wants more ect. I don't take him to the store anymore. For awhile he was refusing his shower. It was found that they were doing a swimming session at school and he was getting showers there, so He didn't want to do it again. Waht is it called when they get focused on particular objects and have it with them all the time? With Bobby its boxes and kinex and occasionally match box cars.