Роман
12-21-2007, 07:16 PM
I ran a google search on "I just think we should be friends" and I ran on the followign thread: http://www.squidge.org/dsa/archive/drama/unassuming.html Since I am a slow reader, I didn't get a chance to read anything besides the section I am going to quote in a RESPONSE to this post. PLEASE READ THE FIRST RESPONSE TO THIS POST WHERE YOU CAN FIND THE TEXT I QUOTED (IT WAS TOO LONG TO FIT INTO ORIGINAL POST) THE QUOTED PASSAGE IS A LOT SHORTER THAN THE ACTUAL LINK, AND THIS QUOTE IS THE ONLY THING I WANT TO DISCUSS.
So, since I didn't have time to read the whole thing, I don't actually know who Frazer was or whether or not the guy in question was really gay or not. However, regardless of that, I think he should have continued to fight to perswade that woman that he was straight. I understand if he was trying to be polite, BUT THE POINT IS THAT HE WASN"T. During most of the conversatoin THE WOMAN was the one who was trying to exit the situation in a polite way, while THE MAN was forcing the confrontation. Then, when she FINALLY admitted that she thought he was gay, he all of a sudden said that he had to go and left. She even followed him out of the door, so NOW he finally got her attention and she WANTED to pursue the conversation; yet he just left. So it makes no sense. If he went on all this length trying to force the confrontation, why didn't he pursue it once she was ready to talk about it?
Well, there is actually a clue in that passage, namely the following passage:
He opened his mouth to object and realized he was sunk. She was a *lawyer*. Hell, she was a *prosecutor*. Case closed. He reached behind him for the sofa and realized he was too far away from it to sit down again. He really needed to sit down for this.
But she wasn't finished. He could see that--see that she was a lot like Stella, actually, except for the overbite and the wider hips and the Jewish thing. She was a lot like Stella. So it wouldn't've worked out anyway, probably.
*Even if she didn't think you were gay.*
Regarding the first paragraph, I think it is the opposite: if she is a lawyer she will be willing to think logically and TEST HER ASSUMPTIONS. Most NT-s who are NOT lawyers are not willing to test their assumptions and that is the biggest problem: once they reach a conclusion, no amount of logic will help. On the other hand in case of a lawyer, yes it will help.
Now lets move on to the second paragraph. What does he mean she was a lot like Stella so it won't work out anyway? First of all, REGARDLESS OF WHEHTER OR NOT IT WOULD WORK OUT, he has to prove that he is straight to SAVE HIS PRIDE AND REPUTATION. I mean, suppose the cashier in a grocery store thinks you are gay, and it won't work out with that cashier anyway (say that cashier is 70 years old and you are only 20, or even worse your cashier is the same gender as you), now does it mean that it is fine with you that the cashier thinks you are gay? OF COURSE NOT.
And, as far as "it won't have worked out anyway" well, how does he know for sure? He can learn from the mistakes that he made with Stella in order not to repeat them any more. Besided, if he TRIES and it doesn't work out, then he will be able to say "well at least I tried" but here he didn't even try so he will always have that guilt feeling about not trying. Finally, if it "doesn't work out" for some other reason, it is always a lot better than his gayness being the reason. I mean just out of principle. Suppose you are about to go to jail for stealing from store A, which you are NOT guilty of. But you konw that you would of gone to jail anyway for stealing from store B which you ARE guilty of. So are you simply not going to care as to what you are in jail for? Well, I would. If you are in jail for stealing from store B, at least you are treated fairly. But in case of store A you were NOT treated fairly. And THIS is the thing that is most important: not to be treated fairly. So even if this guy was SURE it won't work out anyway, he should have done the best he could to be in a relationship and THEN screw it up for whatever the REAL reason might be (i.e. repeat whatever mistakes he made with Stela). That way at least the point will be made that his gayness is NOT the reason.
Now lets go back to his "speaking to the lawyer" remark. Towards the end of the quote you will read the following:
"When you and your *friend* retire... can you honestly say you think you'll be married? Will he?"
"I...." Okay, so he hadn't thought about it in those terms, but yeah, probably, 'course they'd be married. Linda Stein-Kowalski. He laughed and shook his head. Now *that* wasn't looking so likely.
"Ray?"
"Yeah, look, I should be going."
Now HERE WAS HIS CHANCE RIGHT THERE. She asked him will he be able to honestly say he will be married. The answer is *YES* and its not even a lie. I mean, look at what he THOGHT TO HIMSLF in response to that quesiton: he said TO HIMSLF that the asnwer is yes. So "yes" is the truth. Now, WHY DIDN"T HE WANT TO SAY IT OUT LOUD if its not even a lie? Instead, he responded that he should be going. Now THAT was stupid isn't it.
Anyway, I will post the quoted passage in a response, since it doesn't seem to fit here
So, since I didn't have time to read the whole thing, I don't actually know who Frazer was or whether or not the guy in question was really gay or not. However, regardless of that, I think he should have continued to fight to perswade that woman that he was straight. I understand if he was trying to be polite, BUT THE POINT IS THAT HE WASN"T. During most of the conversatoin THE WOMAN was the one who was trying to exit the situation in a polite way, while THE MAN was forcing the confrontation. Then, when she FINALLY admitted that she thought he was gay, he all of a sudden said that he had to go and left. She even followed him out of the door, so NOW he finally got her attention and she WANTED to pursue the conversation; yet he just left. So it makes no sense. If he went on all this length trying to force the confrontation, why didn't he pursue it once she was ready to talk about it?
Well, there is actually a clue in that passage, namely the following passage:
He opened his mouth to object and realized he was sunk. She was a *lawyer*. Hell, she was a *prosecutor*. Case closed. He reached behind him for the sofa and realized he was too far away from it to sit down again. He really needed to sit down for this.
But she wasn't finished. He could see that--see that she was a lot like Stella, actually, except for the overbite and the wider hips and the Jewish thing. She was a lot like Stella. So it wouldn't've worked out anyway, probably.
*Even if she didn't think you were gay.*
Regarding the first paragraph, I think it is the opposite: if she is a lawyer she will be willing to think logically and TEST HER ASSUMPTIONS. Most NT-s who are NOT lawyers are not willing to test their assumptions and that is the biggest problem: once they reach a conclusion, no amount of logic will help. On the other hand in case of a lawyer, yes it will help.
Now lets move on to the second paragraph. What does he mean she was a lot like Stella so it won't work out anyway? First of all, REGARDLESS OF WHEHTER OR NOT IT WOULD WORK OUT, he has to prove that he is straight to SAVE HIS PRIDE AND REPUTATION. I mean, suppose the cashier in a grocery store thinks you are gay, and it won't work out with that cashier anyway (say that cashier is 70 years old and you are only 20, or even worse your cashier is the same gender as you), now does it mean that it is fine with you that the cashier thinks you are gay? OF COURSE NOT.
And, as far as "it won't have worked out anyway" well, how does he know for sure? He can learn from the mistakes that he made with Stella in order not to repeat them any more. Besided, if he TRIES and it doesn't work out, then he will be able to say "well at least I tried" but here he didn't even try so he will always have that guilt feeling about not trying. Finally, if it "doesn't work out" for some other reason, it is always a lot better than his gayness being the reason. I mean just out of principle. Suppose you are about to go to jail for stealing from store A, which you are NOT guilty of. But you konw that you would of gone to jail anyway for stealing from store B which you ARE guilty of. So are you simply not going to care as to what you are in jail for? Well, I would. If you are in jail for stealing from store B, at least you are treated fairly. But in case of store A you were NOT treated fairly. And THIS is the thing that is most important: not to be treated fairly. So even if this guy was SURE it won't work out anyway, he should have done the best he could to be in a relationship and THEN screw it up for whatever the REAL reason might be (i.e. repeat whatever mistakes he made with Stela). That way at least the point will be made that his gayness is NOT the reason.
Now lets go back to his "speaking to the lawyer" remark. Towards the end of the quote you will read the following:
"When you and your *friend* retire... can you honestly say you think you'll be married? Will he?"
"I...." Okay, so he hadn't thought about it in those terms, but yeah, probably, 'course they'd be married. Linda Stein-Kowalski. He laughed and shook his head. Now *that* wasn't looking so likely.
"Ray?"
"Yeah, look, I should be going."
Now HERE WAS HIS CHANCE RIGHT THERE. She asked him will he be able to honestly say he will be married. The answer is *YES* and its not even a lie. I mean, look at what he THOGHT TO HIMSLF in response to that quesiton: he said TO HIMSLF that the asnwer is yes. So "yes" is the truth. Now, WHY DIDN"T HE WANT TO SAY IT OUT LOUD if its not even a lie? Instead, he responded that he should be going. Now THAT was stupid isn't it.
Anyway, I will post the quoted passage in a response, since it doesn't seem to fit here