MILLLLLLLLLLLI....all I want for Christmas is...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

A little F'n compliance!

Holy christ I am getting tired of this! Every single thing, every single day is a negotiation...and I NEVER win! This child is either going to become the worlds greatest scam artist or a lawyer! Wait is that the same thing?

I try SO hard not to debate things with him...I tell him he is procrastonating and that it's time to do: X, Y, or Z...without debating it...but it literally does not stop! I threaten him with all sorts of things to make him comply, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And even when it does it's only for a second...like for one tiny step in an entire process...

For example, getting dressed: He will begin by telling me he would rather get dressed AFTER breakfast than before...

you know...to me this doesn't seem like such a big deal and I'm generally ok with it, but I find that once the negotiation begins, it's a downhill thing...

I have to weigh a couple things...ok, maybe his mood will change by the time he finishes eating versus starting the battle first thing...

So ok, let's pick out the clothes and go down for breakfast...and that turns into a battle over him wanting to wear things that he KNOWS full well he cannot. Like shorts when it's 20 degrees out! So here we are anyway...

So now we go down for breakfast...

Me: "Coley would you like pancakes or cereal"

Coley: "I want oatmeal"

Me: (annoyed) "Ok, oatmeal it is" I whip it up and bring it to him, he's waiting while watching some morning kid show (PBS, Reading rainbow, or whatever)...

Coley: "I don't want it in that bowl"

Me: "Coley, please stop screaming your sister is still sleeping. And, stop being rediculous, a bowl is a bowl."

Coley (with trars): "NOOOOOOOOOO! I WAAAAAAANT_____________"

Me: "Coley, I asked you to lower your voice. If you ask me properly I will change your bowl"

Coley: "Mommy may I please have the ________ bowl"

Me: "thank you" I get it and bring it out...

Any number of things could happen at this point...he could say he wants something else on the oatmeal...that somehow I made it wrong and he wants me to remake it, he could ask for a new spoon, whatever.... I put my foot down and then it really gets fun!

Then I spend the next whatever amount of time trying to get him to eat. I remind him CONSTANTLY that he's got 15, 10, 5, etc minutes left before breakfast time is over and he needs to get dressed for the bus. He either eats or he doesn't...I know him not eating is generally the beginning of a BAD day, so I will often try to get something in him while he's distracted by something, the cat, the show, a passing car...whatever...a spoonful goes in...

Because if I TELL him to take a bite, it just opens a WHOLE 'nother opportunity for debate...

Ok, so at 7:50 it's time to get dressed...and this is when things get REALLY fun...

He doens't want that shirt, that he just picked, now he wants something else..

Me: "NO! This is what you picked and it's time now to get dressed"

Then he wants to to do it, yet when I give him the opportunity he needs to do this that and the next thing first...

Ok, so he loses his chance to do it himself because once again he is procrastonating. So I grab him and manhandle him to get his PJs off, or whatever the next part of the process is.

He gets mad is screaming his bloody head off, Audrey is crying now, and the bus is ready to pull up any second.

He says he wants to do it, so I tell him: "I'll give you one more chance Coley, but if you don't do it, I will have to, and there will be no more chances after that."

Coley (sad face with tears & all): ok mommy...

I hand him his shirt or whatever it is that we are struggling with...and he's off on his negotiation tear again...wants to put the pants on first, wants to where the shirt backwards, wants to whatever...and frankly I let him as long as progress is being made...I just won't let him get sidetracked or prolong the process because at this point I'm keeping one ear on sounds of the bus...

Inevidably I end up wrestling with him to get him dressed and he's still screaming about wanting this that or the next thing...

The bus comes, Audrey's in full melt down, and now we have to go through the process of getting the coat, mittens & hat on...

By the time I get him on the bus I'm sore, he's bawling, the driver is annoyed, and Audrey is whaling...



And how was your morning....


And then the fun starts all over again when he gets home....I swear it does NOT matter what we are doing or how I handle it...I let him win sometimes, I give him non-negotiable options, I give him no options - decide for him, I give him unlimited options ("what would you like for breakfast?") it does NOT matter...the child negotiates on EVERY single point!

But it's not just the negotiation...because if we could have the foolish debate and then move past it, like what to wear and then get dressed, I'd be ok with it...tired, but ok...the thing is he negotiates to procrastonate...it's because he doesn't want to get dressed so he's avoiding the process with dialog.

WTF!

AND, we've tried being unbelievably inflexible with him on everything to get the point across to him...this is the routine, this is the rule, etc...it just doesn't get through!

I just don't get it!

Does anyone have any ideas?! Or a spare room?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok...I'm so confused!

I just had a phone conference with Coley's teacher. Today was a scheduled routine check-in sorta thing for the entire class. Next week is our IEP progress meeting...so it sorta works out to nice timing.

Anyhoo...the purpose of today's 'meeting' was a quick touch base sorta thing. So I asked her how she's doing with the above issue...

Apparently Coley works them over too. It's hard not to get sucked into his debates sometimes, and it's really hard not to be supportive about it at more appropriate times...she deals with that too.

But get this...she told me about one particular time where she was struggling to get Coley to follow the routine. She told him that he has 3 chances and after that there would be a consequence...ya know what, I am just now realizing I didn't even ask her what that consequence would be...OH NO! ok back to the point...so Coley turns to her and tells her, "ha, my mom only gives me 2 chances!"

People! What am I going to do with this child.

Get this, I don't tell him he's got 2 chances. He figured it out..not that it's hard, but when I realized that giving him 3 chances or counting or whatever was just giving him more time to delay I stopped. That was months ago. Now I tell him 1 time to do something. If he doesn't do it, the 2nd time I make him do it, hand over hand style, or I take over (like with the getting dressed thing).

She's said for the most part he is good with complience, but does like to negotiate every point, and other teachers have a harder time with this than her. She basically stops discusion with him and urged me to do the same.

So I asked her how she would recommend handling things like getting dressed in the morning...she tells me send his clothes to school and put him on the bus in his PJs.

Now, on one hand I can see this as being good for me...no arguement, AND I can avoid a beating...but guys, I can totally see him thinking that this is an option for him now...like if he choses he can get dressed later at school, and he'll never get dressed for me...

I'm so frustrated!

And where is our resident RDI guru?!

[moose53]

((((((Kristen)))))),

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/moose53/MINIS/HUGS/poohhug-th.jpg

You've got a very smart little boy there :D

I find it very 'interesting' that you use the word "win" -- and I NEVER win[unquote]!! PLUS, you sound really-really tired.

It sounds just like the stubborn, "terrible-two's" (which doesn't necessarily happen ONLY at two) behavior that all kids go through.

[quote]
And then the fun starts all over again when he gets home....I swear it does NOT matter what we are doing or how I handle it...I let him win sometimes, I give him non-negotiable options, I give him no options - decide for him, I give him unlimited options ("what would you like for breakfast?") it does NOT matter...the child negotiates on EVERY single point!


There's that word again -- "win".

Some thoughts. How about not discussing things that you don't want to negotiate?? It sounds like you talk a lot with your son -- which is good. But, 'everything' doesn't need to be talked about. If he wants to wear shorts -- let him -- just put long pants over them. If it's time for breakfast -- just say "Let go get breakfast. I'll pour the cereal, you pour the milk and butter the toast". Give him something TO DO instead of something to talk about.

It's interesting about the "chances". You've apparently got a low level of anger running through your head and it's causing you to react in a certain predictable way. He's picking up on that. He's sharp!!

You know what's really-really amazing about kids, Kristen is they find ways to get what they want. You sound really frazzled and tired. He wants your attention and he's discovered that talking and discussing and arguing (or negotiating) are ways to get through to you when you're tired.

You want to get him out of this negotiating/endless-discussion 'thing' that he's got going on and you want to simplify your morning. Change the routine. The night before: Give him things to do. Lay out his clothes for the next day (you just hand them to him and tell him to put them on the chair or on the dresser -- no choice, just hand them off). Tell him we're having cereal tomorrow, you put the dishes on the table and pour the juice and put the filled glasses in the refrigerator. Or, we're having pancakes tomorrow, have him fill the juice glasses and the syrup pitcher and put them in the refrigerator after he sets the table.

When he gets home from school, take a few minutes to get some milk and cookies and just sit down on the floor with him and play cars or toss a ball back and forth. Something for the two of you to be together and to calm him after school. Just like grownup needs to unwind after work, he probably needs the same thing after school, plus he seems to be CRAVING *YOU*.

I just have a real strong suspicion that if some of the choice and discussion is removed AND he's given some things to do that make him feel like he's working alongside you AND some of the "morning work" is done the night before -- that you'll see some changes.

BIG HUGS.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v90/moose53/MINIS/FOOD/hohappymothersday017breakfast02text.gif

Barb

[matika]

Oh play his game to him lol.

If he don't feel like getting dress until after breakfast, next time he asks you when breakfast will be cooked, tell him you just don't feel like making breakfast until after he is dressed, and go about what you doing and let him digest that for a while.

About the breakfast, instead of giving him a choice, just make what you will, and then put it at the table in the dish it belongs on.

He don't like it, then you can say ok, well here is a timer, you have 15 minutes, after that I will pick up and clean up and no more food until lunch.

I know it sound easier said then done, but it is easier said then done, because I been there.

and at first is a fight and a battle of domination, but that is EXACTLY what probably needs to happen. He is working you, and you are the grown up not him, this is your household and you need to run it not him.

I am not saying this works like wonders, not at first, but it will work, it has with both my kids, they prefer eating their breakfast then seen me tossing it in the garbage can, and I have, and both my kids are very different in their autism, and both of them have complied.

I know at times you have to choose your battles, but seems like he is doing this on everything, and you have to put your foot down.

Best of luck, I know it is a hard thing.

hugs

beky

[peglem]

I totally feel like a hypocrite giving you this advice, because I don't do this (but my kid doesn't EVER talk back!). Anyway, i think giving kids choices is important- they need to feel a sense of control over what happens to them. But, they should not control what happens to you. Mornings are so tough because you've got a readiness deadline. So, why not save choices until task completion. And if you really don't want thim to choose to wear shorts- get them out of there as an option. Or better- give him a choice between two pieces of clothing only. This way he still gets to choose, but you have control over options. I read an idea in one of those child rearing mags (in doc. office) where the parents made a no negotiating contract with their kid. But, one day a month he gets to be the boss. I like this idea- don't know if it would work or not. But, you could make it the 1st saturday of every month or something and he gets to make all the decisions that day. Then when he tries to negotiate- you could just say to save it for his day. Likely though, if you get this negotiation thing under control, he'll just find another stategy or tactic to delay. But, maybe its not so much delay as he doesn't want to do it for himself- so he pushes to the point where you have to do it for him and he's figured out if he gets you frazzled enough that will happen. I would NOT send him to school in his PJ's. I just keep thinking how I thought Fridays at work should have been pajama day, instead of jeans day-he's apt to decide to wear pajamas all the time- they're more comfortable than clothes. I might let him wear the shorts though- send a pair of pants in case he changes his mind about the shorts. Maybe he has to learn for himself why that choice is inappropriate.

[peglem]

Oooh, I just got another idea. What if you just gave him a "choice" card. He gets to make only one choice each morning- the rest is up to you. Then when he starts to negotiate just ask him for the card- if he's already spent it, then you say, okay-then its up to me.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

I like the card idea that's a good one.

I hear what you guys are saying, and perhaps I'm just so discouraged that it all seems so impossible...but I have tried

- no choices, my decision

- only 2 choices,

- unlimited choices (on specific things)

- and consequences for poor choices (natural consequences)


He fights me when I box him in without a choice...he knows what the options are, so will scream that he wants something else, or to do something else.

If I give him only 2 choices and stick to those limits he will simply refuse to budge.

This is where the natural consequence thing came in...fine you don't want cereal or french toast...then you go to school hungry. His answer...oh I like that idea better. And I've let him on several occations...

And mind you this is just not only in the morning...this happens at dinner time, at bed time, at bath time...literally all day long.

Sometimes I think it's because he doesn't have control, or feels like he doesn't in some ways...maybe things are not going so well inside him so he's pushing on us or something...so I leave it open to him. Staying with the breakfast thing...I have let him have chicken nuggets for breakfast (big deal) and things like that....with the 'what would you like for breakfast approach...

But the debating/arguing/negotiating thing has gotten so bad now, it doesn't matter...if he decides to have a bologna sandwich for breakfast there will be something wrong with it.

If I ask him to make it with me to avoid this, he goes into melt down because it's the wrong bologna or something.

Oh, and he's gotten REALLY good at knowing when we are out of something, and will ask for that...

I swear it's all about the fight...

I do like the way Barb explained the limited talking thing too...

Both of those seem like good things to try..well I'll try anything...but at the moment, my defeated moral feels that these are the most likely scenarios to work...

At least better than the only option that keeps coming to my mind...just shutting him in his room when he's misbehaving! Because this is the only thing we've been able to do to get him to snap out of it!

Like if he's refusing to sit for dinner or something, we will say ok, if you are not going to sit with us for dinner, then you are not going to prevent us from eating, up to your room until dinner is over. He of course will argue, we then march him up. He'll spend about 30 seconds in there max and come down to appologize and get in his chair...but then we are onto the next battle...to actually pick up a utensil and use it to put food in his mouth 1x...then another...and another...until his plate is empty...and then take his plate and put it in the sink...UGH!

I've just lost my appetite for dinner...

I am CLEARLY not in the right mind set to do anything constructive...I'll tell you I'm punching out as soon as DH comes home...he can choose to fight or not, I just really don't care to tonight. Maybe tomorrow I'll feel inspired...

Thanks for you suggestions...I don't mean to sound like a big poop, I am just tired of it!

I know I should be happy he's verbal,

I should be happy he has a great vocabulary,

I should be happy that he's thinking 'out of the box' or whatever

I should be happy that he's expresing his opinion.....


Etc. And I am...I would just like a little compliance now and again.

[Mayzoo]

All I can think of is when you make changes IE..no choices, two choices etc... how long do you stick with it each time? I would say it will take at least three months (maybe more) for the waves of problems to resolve, and for him to accept the new schedule. Even after he settles the first time, he will rebel one more time to test the boundaries and see if the rules are firm. When he realiazes that you have not changed your resolve, he will eventually comply. But, it will take so much patience on your part--more than you can imagine. And hubby will have to be on the same page!! Take some heart that Coley is a smart little guy.

A major side note--right now it is JOB to test boundaries, and see what he can get by with. He is supposed to be testing his control on his world, how he can manipulate his world, and how those around him respond to his antics. It is his way of interacting with his world, and finding out how it ticks and how people around him tick. I have gained great patience through the realization that my daughter's job right now--is to test me.

[milivica]

Oh boy. Well, my first thought is his flexible thinking ('good enough' thinking) and ongoing appraisal (what is most important moment by moment and what is not) which is automatic for nt kids to gain as they grow (except most dh's, and most mommies during pms, lol). Then it occurred to me, 'we' things and shared goals.

If you never felt shared goals how willing would you be to comply all day long?

Choices can be very frustrating, if you have no shared goals, no sense of 'we', and I feel the choices I see are never mine but yours. Of course, when I can feel a sense of 'we', the choices feel much more like ours.

Does he feel that sense of shared goals? Does he feel 'we' about the things he does with and around others? 'We' things and shared goals - the experience of feeling 'we' from the inside, for someone on the spectrum, is unbeatable. It's just the best. At school where he also debates, who is making him feel 'we'? It doesn't happen by saying the word "we are going to...." do math, art, gym. It's a neurological, developmental, milestone thing. You gain compliance step by step, when you feel that comrodery or shared goal. For someone on the spectrum, or, someone developmentally behind in that area, it has to be a specific objective that the adults in his life know how to create in his daily life experiences.

You don't want a complaint child with no sense of shared goals, that's blind compliance. It's not non-compliant, not to blindly comply.

How can he feel 'we' with you about not waking the baby? Feel as though you both want her to sleep? Can you make the breakfast together using complimentary roles so it's not about the food, but about the joint activity? Same for getting dressed. You and he are on different sides, change that. When you share enjoyment making breakfast together, what you make is not so important anymore.

Do complimentary roles....you hold the bowl, he pours in the oats, you fill the cup with water, he pours it in, you put it in the microwave...etc.... Do Not do parallel such as you each make your own bowl. When a mistake happens (too mushy or too dry of oats) that becomes an opportunity to help him gain flexible thinking (good enough!). You look at the mistake, tell him, "Good gracious alive, please do not tell me you're going to eat that" and if he's like Vince, he will. Or, if it's too dry like a brick, you take turns dumping it down the disposal, and make jokes about what species makes poop like it looks, maybe it was dinosaur poop, maybe it was petrified poop...poop seems to always be a 'winner' in little boy conversation.

Do that with clothes, make it a complimentary role time, a shared experience. If he has autism, he already knows how to be emotionally independent, you don't have to teach that.

Unrelated to RDI - What I did when my kids were in control (or so it felt)...pretend he's someone else's kid. Your love for him and your hurting when he hurts and your longing to see him happy enters into your decisions and feelings - those things do not enter into his decisions. I was able to often make clearer decisions, never cold or harsh, just clearer and actually better for him.

Ok, so that's it. I hope something there clicks!
Mili

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ok guys, I just wanted to post back...

First of all, I am breathing and filtering oxygen through my body in a much more appropriate manner today! :)

ok, DH & I talked about this over the weekend and he agreed that a lot of this is likely due to him attention seeking. He is SO awesome with Audrey but I guess we are missing something where (as you guys said) he doesn't feel a joint 'responsibility' with keeping her content or whatever. So I need to work on that with him somehow!

We both LOVE the negotiation coupon idea...although knowing him, I can totally see him not caring when he is in the full thows of one of these moods.

This actually gets to the root of something that has bugged me for a LONG time with him! He just doesn't like rules...isn't that kinda weird? I've noticed that (probably like any kid) he does MUCH better with a routine and with a firm set of rules...but he LOVES breaking them...I mean it is literally a CONSTANT struggle to keep him on schedule/routine...it's exhausting! We've let him just kinda wing things too...thinking it would make for a much more easy-going atmosphere in the house...but it just gets WAY out of control. Like once one rule is bent the whole thing falls to pieces...and things are just not on a routine by any shape of the imagination for us, and haven't been, CRIPES for ages. It all came unraveled with the sleep issues (way back). Because he'd be up half the night, he'd sleep half the day...and of course his mealtime schedule was way off too...he'd be eating a meal at 4am or whatever...and I have literally been struggling to get him on track ever since! It's THAT hard! I think it's a combination of his focus issues and his stubborn streak! I just don't know.... But he's on a great schedule at school (of course) and he loves that...he even plays school at home and tells me the order and TIME of everything...

ok, back to point! So, Saturday morning he helped DH make breakfast...and that went REALLY well...but as soon as it came time to sit and eat he was all over the map! UGH! Eventually we just gave up...he had exactly one bit of sausage and one bite of scrambled eggs.

Later that morning he was coming apart at the seams... and there was NO talking to him to explain what was going on. For sure his BS was at rock bottom...there was no opening his mind up to the idea of eating...we just had to deal with this kid that wanted things that were physically impossible to obtain...he was not being unreasonable, he was being illogical. I know that sounds crazy to describe an almost 5yo that way...but he was wanting things that he knows full well can't happen...things to stand that don't (like string) things to balance that don't, etc....

Over the weekend we did a lot of decorating AND he got to visit with MIL who spoils him rotten...he & I decorated the tree, he, DH & BIL hung lights outside, he also got to play with his sled a little, and he & I made paper snow-flakes. This helped a lot!!!!! There was a definative goal!!! I told him that Santa likes the house decorated, so we needed to get it all done...that it was a lot of work, so he needed to help too.

Also, DH & I were putting some stuff into the attic and he stumbled over a box my mom sent up a while back. In it was 5 volumes of "Harry-Potta-mus" (hee hee, he's lucky he's cute that's for sure!) and a 250 piece Harry-Potta-mus puzzle. We took down volume 1 to start reading at night and began working on that puzzle together.

So I think with all the attention he got over the weekend that it helped to get his behavior back in check...this am was MUCH better. He tried to push back a little, but it was not bad at all...just wanted a few more minutes in bed, and didn't do too good with his breakfast...

Anyway, I think all this has really shown me something...

I'm not real clear on how to describe it, or even what to do about it...but I think it's a lot about control and it's a lot about the 'we' thing... Not so much about attention, but more about being a part or participating and feeling a contribution toward it...a valued part of the 'team' ... something like that.

It's not enough though for me to just give him responsibilities that contribute to the functioning of the household...no, not at all...he needs to have someone right there with him...not for the praise...although he does like that on some levels...I just don't know how to describe it...but I think I've learned something...which is good...and I need to reread things here a few more times...it's helped a lot!

So, THANK YOU!!!! I wanted to let you know that!!!

I think I need to pick up that RDI book again too! We've been SO busy I just havent' been able to read in a while...

And now I'm starting to think that a consultant is REALLY important...eeek! This is the crux of our problems...if I can't get to the source I'm going to have to explore funding too! Maybe I'll luck out and get it approved by insurance...:rolleyes:

KJ

[milivica]

'We' things, and of course continue developing that very important M/A relationship. There are probably a million ways that Audrey looks to you emotionally (as well as literally looks at you with her eyes) when she feels uncertain, cause she has that intrinsic sense that you know more than her, and she can count on you for guidance. Coley needs to build that with you - who follows a 'leader' they don't view as having more knowledge and competence than themselves - ya know? That's not intrinsic with asd kids. Logically asd's know you know more, but not emotionally, emotionally there's not that 'link' to you. Kind of like a 'know it all' teenager or something, who rants "you just don't know, you just don't understaaaaaaand". But even a know it all teenager will come to you when they box them self into a corner and really screw up, they know you can bail them out. Not cause they know you are a 'tool' to bail them out, but cause they know you know more and you know how to guide them, you are the Master and they are the Apprentice - it's intrinsic in nt's from day 1.

Go girl!