Okay I Got The Flu Shot

[BrokenBladder]

I went in on Thursday and got my flu shot. They assured me that I wouldn't get the flu from the shot as it's a dead virus that is in the shot. However the nurse did mention that I could have alot of aches from it as it attacks your immune system. Well boy was she right. I'm really feeling the aching from it and overall I just don't feel good, but hey on the bright side I shouldn't get the flu, right?
Actually the answer is no because there are several different strains of the flu so there is no guarantee than I still won't get it.
So right about now I'm trying to figure out the point of this shot. Maybe because I feel bad right now I just can't seem to think of one.:rolleyes:

[Kathi49]

Lisa,

I hope those aches and pain pass quickly. :(

I think the point of the shot is that IF you do get the flu, it is not supposed to hit you as hard.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

I went in on Thursday and got my flu shot. They assured me that I wouldn't get the flu from the shot as it's a dead virus that is in the shot. However the nurse did mention that I could have alot of aches from it as it attacks your immune system. Well boy was she right. I'm really feeling the aching from it and overall I just don't feel good, but hey on the bright side I shouldn't get the flu, right?
Actually the answer is no because there are several different strains of the flu so there is no guarantee than I still won't get it.
So right about now I'm trying to figure out the point of this shot. Maybe because I feel bad right now I just can't seem to think of one.:rolleyes:

That there is no point.

For those with autoimmune disease this shot should be carefully thought out.
Many people get sick when they have a flu shot. So many in fact that the nurse warned you. Why? because while your immune system is working on the useless old virus they chose this season, ANY OTHER germ you get exposed to can run amok in your body while your immune system is being stressed this way. Also you are exposed to egg protein with each shot. People with allergic systems can become allergic to eggs and chicken protein as a result. The flu shot exposed you to adjuvants in the vaccine, like aluminum and preservatives like mercury (thiomersal).

Here is a link to read more:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/fluzone13.htm

[simby]

i think mrs. d said it so well. You MUST weigh the pros and cons of getting the shot.

[BrokenBladder]

Kathi,

Thanks for your well wishes. I certainly hope this won't last for more than a few days. I certainly feel silly having paid for something to make me feel worse than I already do.:)

Mrs. D,

Thanks for the link. The nurse did ask me if I'm allergic to eggs or chicken feathers.
Any idea how long I will feel this way?

[BrokenBladder]

Simby,

You're so right!! Of course I thought I was making a good choice for myself, but actually I think I made a big mistake.

[Kathi49]

Lisa,

I think Mrs. D. said it well also. BUT...don't beat yourself up. :) I have no clue how long the aches and pains last. I would think just a few days based on my past experience with them. I think I stated earlier on another post why I shy away from them. But I forgot to add something else...I also get steroid injections from time to time so I have to be careful (let alone the neurological crud). Sooo...I agree with Simby you just have to weigh the pros and cons.

[BrokenBladder]

Thanks Kathi for telling me not to beat myself up!! I do feel a little better today although I'm still sore and ache.
I'm hoping tomorrow will be even better. In fact I bet if I could actually sleep I would feel tons better.

[simby]

hi bb,
please don't beat yourself up. When i said you have to weigh the pros and cons, i meant your doctor should go over it with you. Not that you have to decide.

My hubs gets one every year and also get the pneumonia shot every 5 or so. He is at a higher risk as he has sarcoidosis in the lungs. And, he has had pneumonia many times in the past.


hope you are feeling better asap,
hugs,
sims

[Kira]

Lisa, I am actually very much in favor of getting the flu shot. People with chronic disease can get very ill from the flu and it can lead to pneumonia, worsening of your underlying disease, etc. The flu is something that most healthy people can usually fight off by spending a few days curled up on the couch with hot tea and some tylenol, but it is a whole different beast for those of us who are sick with another disease.

Also, I wanted to explain a few things about the flu shot.

It does not just contain dead virus... it actually only has some proteins in it that look like flu virus to your immune system. So, when you get the flu shot, your immune system makes an immune response to those proteins. Then, if you are exposed to the flu later on, your body already has antibodies to the flu proteins, so it can quickly get rid of the virus and prevent you from getting sick.

The reason you feel a bit achy/feverish after the shot is because with any vaccine, your body makes a mild immune response to the proteins in the shot. That is how vaccines work... you make an immune response to the shot so that you have antibodies all ready to go if you are exposed to the virus. Usually, though, the response your body makes to the shot is much milder than the response your body would make to an actual infection with live flu virus. Also, while you are feeling achy/feverish from the shot, you still are not contagious from the flu, and there is no risk of you getting "flu pneumonia" from the flu shot (since there is no flu in it). Most people who die from the flu die from flu pneumonia. The shot protects you against that and it also protects you from being an infected carrier of the flu if you are exposed to it.

The nurse was right when she said that there is a still a chance you can get the flu, but it doesn't sound like she told you the whole story or explained it very clearly.

When they make a year's batch of flu shots, they choose which strains of flu to include in the shot based on predictions about which strains are floating around causing disease at the time. There are a whole bunch of strains of flu, and the flu virus also has the ability to mutate and form new strains each year. For instance, avian influenza is a new strain of flu. When they make a year's batch of flu shots, they pick a bunch of strains that are in existance now... but it is always possible for the flu to mutate, or for some weird strain to show up that isn't in the shot. So, the shot doesn't 100% protect you because there is always the weird chance that a different strain of flu pops up. But when you get the shot, you ARE covered against the majority of strains that should be floating around that winter.

I am very much in favor of people with chronic illnesses getting the flu shot, because I have helped take care of patients who are seriously ill from the flu, and I have had severe flu myself when I didn't get my flu shot. I do not think that everyone has to get the flu shot, since not everyone is at a high risk for complications from the flu. Like I said, most people do fine with the flu... they feel like crap for a few days, and then it's over. But for those of us with diseases that make us more susceptible to getting severe flu or that make us more likely to have complications of our own diseases triggered by having the flu... I think that it is very useful for us. I get mine every year, but missed it one year and got really sick with the flu for more than a week.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

That chronically ill patients who are at risk for pneumonia would do better getting the pneumonia vaccine, which has boosters.

The Flu vaccine does NOT protect from other respiratory infections/bronchitis which may lead to pneumonia. While the pneumonia vaccine is limited too, I think it provides a better protection than the flu vaccines. JMO

[terrapin_station]

That there is no point.

For those with autoimmune disease this shot should be carefully thought out.
Many people get sick when they have a flu shot. So many in fact that the nurse warned you. Why? because while your immune system is working on the useless old virus they chose this season, ANY OTHER germ you get exposed to can run amok in your body while your immune system is being stressed this way. Also you are exposed to egg protein with each shot. People with allergic systems can become allergic to eggs and chicken protein as a result. The flu shot exposed you to adjuvants in the vaccine, like aluminum and preservatives like mercury (thiomersal).

Here is a link to read more:
http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/fluzone13.htm

Yeah?? I said something similar and no one paid any attention.

I see how you all are. THANKS A LOT :mad:

You people are something else.

[BrokenBladder]

TS,

I'm sorry but I went back on this thread and I don't see a reply from you until this last one.

Where did you comment on this thread and not be recongized?

[mrsdoubtfyre]

I did not see the other thread from several days ago.

I don't come here every day. I don't respond to every thread, and sometimes no one responds to me.

That is how forum boards can be. Many posts can be overlooked on a message board. That is just how it is. Lots of words and lots of people with demanding issues in their private lives. Sorry you feel this way. :confused:

[BrokenBladder]

Mrs. D,

Why is it that the doctor don't offer the pneumonia vaccine? I have never been offered that and I don't understand why? Is it something that should be asked for? Also since I've already had the flu shot could I go back and ask for the pneumonia vaccine or are you not allowed to have them both?

[mrsdoubtfyre]

are PROMOTED, politically, IMO.

Like the flu vaccine...it only protects against one strain= pneumococcus.
The current one has 23 varieties of that one organism.
http://www.medicinenet.com/pneumococcal_vaccination/article.htm
http://www.medicinenet.com/pneumococcal_vaccination/page2.htm

There are viral pneumonias, strep pneumonias, etc.
This explains it more fully:
http://respiratory-lung.health-cares.net/pneumonia-causes.php

Since pneumococcus is common, and may follow another upper respiratory
event, it is available as a vaccine.

However, pneumonias acquired first hand (with no preceding upper respiratory infection) are typically caused by the other organisms.

Neither vaccine (flu or pneumococcus) is guaranteed to prevent illness.
The elderly are frequently the most vaccinated, but anyone with chronic upper respiratory illness is at risk.

Community acquired pneumonias are typically not pneumococcus type.

I just brought this up, since people here have stated that they get pneumonia when they get viral illnesses. Since there are so many viruses, that cannot be vaccinated against, using the pneumonia vaccine for high risk patients would be an alternative, to consider.

If you get frequent colds/bronchitis..there are ways to strengthen your lungs and immune system that do not involve vaccines. This way you may prevent the illness in the first place. That is what I do. I used to get sick all the time since I am exposed to sick people.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Here is Dr. Weil's recommendations for the flu shot/pneumonia vaccine.

http://health.yahoo.com/experts/weilhealthyliving/2121/get-ready-for-flu-season

It is pretty accurate. It is what he DOESN'T say which is interesting!

[Kira]

The pneumonia vaccine protects against the most common strains of streptococcal pneumonia. It does NOT protect against the viral pneumonia that influenza causes. It also does not protect against mycobacterial pneumonia, staphylococcal pneumonia, aspiration pneumonia, etc.

Also, the pneumonia vaccine is usually offered to older people, residents of nursing homes & similar residential care settings, and certain patients with respiratory diseases... basically, to those people who are at increased risk of developing the type of pneumonia that the vaccine protects against. Different types of pneumonia are more common in different age groups. Additionally, the risk of complications from that type of pneumonia varies for different age groups and different patients.

The pneumonia vaccine DOES NOT protect against viral pneumonia caused by influenza, though it can help protect against catching streptococcal pneumonia when your lungs are already weakened by influenza. It is a good vaccine, but it is for a different problem than the problem addressed by the flu shot.

In patients with chronic illnesses, influenza can cause a viral pneumonia (actually called a pneumonitis) that is dangerous for a number of reasons. First of all, this viral pneumonitis itself can cause severe respiratory symptoms itself. Secondly, it causes damage to the tissue that makes up the airways & the lungs... which then makes it more susceptible to infection. Also, it can trigger very serious exacerbations of underlying diseases, such as asthma and COPD.

Additionally, the high fever, rigors (shaking chills), and constant coughing can significantly stress a body already weakened by another disease. Plus, for people like me with muscle diseases, influenza can trigger further muscle damage & cause rhabdomyolysis, which in turn can cause kidney failure, life-threatening electrolyte abnormalities, etc.

Also, I am not sure if the flu vaccine contains thiomersal (the mercury-containing adjuvant). Could you cite a source stating that there is thiomersal in the flu shot, Mrs. D?

In general, the adjuvants in vaccines are there to increase the body's immune response to the injected material. So, the adjuvant will make your body make more of a response to the shot than if there was no adjuvant in it. BUT, the immune response you make in response to actually being infected with influenza is a much more vigorous, extreme immune response than the immune response you make in response to a vaccination containing an adjuvant. So, if we are arguing that the immune response triggered by the vaccine is dangerous to patients with autoimmune conditions... then by the same logic, the immune response triggered by an actual influenza infection is much, much more dangerous.

Again, I am NOT saying that everyone should rush out and get their flu shot. What I am saying is that people should get their flu shots if they are at high risk of becoming very sick if they do catch influenza. I would be very careful before making blanket statements about the flu shot... some people benefit from the protection it offers.

I know that I would much rather deal with getting the flu shot than deal with the flu, based on my own disease and the kind of severe complications I am likely to develop from the flu. I can say this with confidence because I have gotten the flu shot for most of the past several years, and because I got influenza one year when I was not vaccinated and I became quite ill from it (both from the flu itself and from the complications it caused due to my disease).

[Kira]

BTW, pneumococcus is another word for Streptococcus pneumoniae, the bacteria that causes the streptococcal pneumonia I was talking about above.

I stand by my statement that influenza can cause a viral pneumonia (I have a BS in microbiology, an MD, and am most of the way finished with my MPH, which stands for Master of Public Health). It can also "chew up" the lung tissue enough to make one susceptible to secondary bacterial pneumonia. While many otherwise healthy people avoid these complications and/or fight them off without serious consequences or significant medical intervention... there are also many chronically ill &/or high risk patients who become very, very ill from influenza.

When otherwise healthy people catch influenza, they become carriers of the disease and can spread it to many others, since it is very contagious. So, even though that particular "healthy" person manages to make it through the flu with no serious complications, it would be hard to argue that everyone they passed the flu virus to would also avoid serious complications. The vaccine can help prevent the spread of disease and minimize the extent of influenza epidemics, which in turn protects us all.

Also, while many people like Dr. Weil, he often differs from the rest of the medical community in his opinions on many issues, so... again, make sure to gather credible information from multiple sources, and to weigh the pros & cons only after doing so.

Furthermore, while Mrs. D says that she has been able to strengthen her immune system using other methods (which she does not specify), it is important to remember that a number of us here have serious chronic illnesses that she does not have, and that many of us are also on multiple medications, some of which also affect our ability to fight infection. So, just because a relatively healthy person was able to avoid catching a virus, that does NOT mean that those of us with other risk factors will be fortunate enough to also avoid catching it.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

The multiple dose vials have thiomersal in them. (they cost less and are MORE common)

The unit dose disposable ones do not.(they cost more and are less common)

I am a high risk flu person...who should get the vaccine...and I don't and
I don't get the flu or pneumonia.

You can improve your immunity by improving the lining of the lungs with adequate EFA consumption. Most Americans are very low in consuming Omega-3's which protect the lungs, stomach lining and heart.
Vitamin C and zinc are also protective. Zinc esp for viral illness.

one example:
Rev Mal Respir. 2004 Nov;21(5 Pt 3):8S81-7.Links
[Immunosenescence and the lung]
[Article in French]

Duchateau J.

Laboratoire d'Immunologie, CHU Brugmann, Bruxelles, Belgique. jean.duchateau@chu-brugmann.be

INTRODUCTION: Ageing is accompanied by a series of structural and functional changes in the respiratory system, some of which depend on declining performance of the immune system. STATE OF ART: The dominant risk for morbidity and mortality lies in respiratory infections with pneumococci and influenza virus. These risks are increased by immunosenescence, either intrinsic due to ageing or secondary to underlying diseases, poor diet, medication etc. Adaptive responses linked to memory are clearly degraded, particularly the naturally occurring or post vaccination responses to influenza virus antigens or polysaccharide antigens involved in the production of IgG sub class 2 antibodies. Alterations in innate responses have not yet been studied. The role of the immune system associated with the respiratory mucous membranes is reviewed. After the age of 50 several abnormalities develop in the lungs: reduced muco-ciliary clearance, loss of elastic fibres, and low grade inflammation that manifests itself as changes in broncho-alveolar lavage (neutrophilia, increased production of interleukin 8, elastase-antiprotease complexes). One also sees alterations in mononuclear cells with an increase in activated T lymphocytes. The defects of humoral immunity have, in part, been attributed to a functional deficiency of zinc. In the long term low dose replacement together with selenium reduce the frequency and severity of respiratory infections and some of the inadequate responses to vaccination. PERSPECTIVES: The detection and treatment of immune deficiencies associated with ageing are becoming important therapeutic objectives; they may significantly improve the results and clinical benefits of vaccinations. CONCLUSIONS: The declining performance of the immune system with age plays an important role in the development of lung diseases in the elderly.

PMID: 15803541 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
and
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?db=pubmed&uid=9823012&cmd=showdetailview&indexed=google

another:
http://ajplung.physiology.org/cgi/content/abstract/292/6/L1422

This is a huge subject... there is a wealth of information available now to
help people improve their immunity. Megadoses are not necessary, just common sense.

[Kira]

Vitamin C and Zinc and EFAs only go so far. It is the sort of thing where if you have a relatively okay immune system to start out, maybe they'll help a little bit. But if you are walking around with a major chronic illness, it just isn't going to help your immune system enough to be cavalier about protecting yourself against serious diseases.

I suspect that the reason you have not gotten seriously ill yet is because you've been fortunate enough to avoid catching anything particularly nasty.

Saying that vitamin C and zinc and EFAs boost immunity enough to avoid vaccinations is inaccurate, and it is just plain dangerous to spread inaccurate health information to a bunch of sick people who you have only met online.

I'm not anti-supplements or anything... I take the "mito cocktail" everyday (high dose CoQ10, high dose levocarnitine, high dose riboflavin, creatine, alpha lipoic acid, vitamin E, vitamin C, B-complex, selenium) and a couple of powdered supplements--Juven, which helps with muscle cell repair, and Po*****e, which is sort of a time-release glucose solution. I also take iron because we can't seem to get my ferritin above about 8 no matter what form of iron I take or what dosage.

I just think you ought to be careful when telling people that a potentially life-saving treatment is a big mistake, just because they had a typical vaccine response and were achy afterwards.

[mrsdoubtfyre]

don't be mad at me, please, you don't even know me. I am far from cavalier. I am sorry you are so ill and frustrated.

I have a high risk job where sick people sneeze on me all the time. ( I have just retired at age 60 because of this job stress and risk)
I have severe arthritis, but of course I am not as ill as you are.

I used to have bronchitis at least 4 times a year which lasted a month or more.
I had severe asthma, and have had pneumonia twice.

Since I started to fix my life up 10 yrs ago, I no longer use inhalers daily (I have one rescue inhaler for when I get smoked or chemically fumed), I have a diagnosis of COPD, and no longer am prey to the upper respiratory illnesses that people pass around. I am happy, my doctor is happy (and now she uses fish oil too), and
I just share that with others. I am only suggesting ways to improve one's life.
If it does not pertain to you, then please just don't read me.

I did alot of searching on PubMed about zinc/viruses when I had a patient who had repeated herpes in her eye. She wanted any info I could get for her then, and I have just kept it on hand.