Can you explain?

[peglem]

When Allie brings me something to open for her, (she has fine motor problems, needs help to open things) I usually hold out my left hand because I use the right to manipulate the opening part- I'm right handed. She almost always pushes my left hand away and places the item in my right hand instead. She doesn't object when I move it back to my left hand to open it, but insists on placing it in my right hand 1st. So, what's up with that?

[tgrimes]

That's funny. Maybe the 'ring' hand or something... do you wear a ring on your left hand?

[peglem]

Funny (now, not then) story about my wedding ring. When I was preggo with Allie, my hands swelled so I couldn't wear my ring. I put it in my jewelry box (with a bunch of junk jewelry) and my then 6 year old daughter took it to school- I got the engagement ring back, but the wedding band is gone forever- she gave it to a friend who said she lost it. My daughter swears that one day she will buy me a new set!

Short answer- no rings or bracelets on either hand. Odd, huh?

[milivica]

I used to do stuff like that, Vince too. Your left hand is in the way of the opener (your right hand). She is putting it in the hand that opens it. As though you and 'the hand' aren't connected, know what I mean? Almost like you put a jar that needs to be opened on that part of your can opener that opens jars. You may have to turn the can opener to the back side to access the opener, she is moving something (your left hand) out of the way to access the opener. See how it makes sense? Let me know.

Like your body parts are tools, means to get things accomplished, it's not YOU opening the jar, it's 'the hand', or 'the right hand'.

Vince also use to kind of take my hand and almost throw it toward something he could not reach...I was his grabber, or rather my hand was the grabber, the means to get something he could not reach. Would have not mattered if it was me - or if he could generalize any hand, hands went up and got the desired item (hands, not people, see?)

Now, NEXT TIME, see if it is possible for her to keep one or both of her hands on the jar, while you open it. Eventually, she can hold the jar, while you open. You don't want to 'graduate' to her opening for herself, she can already do things alone (emotionally). She needs no practice in emotional independence.

Do you see how that is a good idea? That way, for her, she will experience the feeling of 'WE' open the jar. You will know if you are doing it correctly, if she is not stressed, and eventually enjoying the activity so much she won't stop bringing jars for both of you to open TOGETHER, so she can feel that feeling of 'WE'. See? Long before all your pickles dry out though, I'll give you more ideas.

Ok, off to bed...got a certain little lady to pray for with RDI on her ISP!!!

[milivica]

Favor, before you do the jar idea, let's go over it.

If you are 'instructional' it won't work, hey let's frame it together first, make sure you know exactly what will happen, what to expect, what to be prepared for, before you do this. Becaaaaaause, you can use this as a catapult for complimentary roles in EVERYTHING around the house, out of the house, oh man it's real cool. I know it sounds so simple, open a jar together, but like there are way more ways to do it 'wrong' than 'right' when you are trying to guide her to gaining function. And of course, this has nothing what so ever to do with her learning how to open a jar (skill).

[Keggy]

My guess is that she has a right hand dominance and she is expecting you to use that to open the item. When she sees you shift it to your left and she shifts it back, she is trying to get you to open the way she would. Then she sees you do this complicated right/left thing and she knows thats what she needs to do.. (eh?)
Or explanation number two....... possibly at one time she went to do something and sombody told her or made her use her right hand. her right hand is the "right hand" and she needs to use the "right hand" to do things, and so do you.
Our kids are so concrete the second would be my best guess.

[Mother's Heart]

I have to say I'm with Mili on this one.
I used to do stuff like that, Vince too. Your left hand is in the way of the opener (your right hand). She is putting it in the hand that opens it. As though you and 'the hand' aren't connected, know what I mean? Almost like you put a jar that needs to be opened on that part of your can opener that opens jars. You may have to turn the can opener to the back side to access the opener, she is moving something (your left hand) out of the way to access the opener. See how it makes sense? Let me know.

Like your body parts are tools, means to get things accomplished, it's not YOU opening the jar, it's 'the hand', or 'the right hand'.


This is exactly what I've seen for years with my son. He does this, placing whatever he needs in the hand that he's accustomed to my using for that task. He's very specific and will move whatever I have in that hand out of it to make it available. So if i'm here typing he will move my hands off of the keyboard before placing the thing he needs in my hand, or if I have a tool in my left hand and he needs that hand he will remove the tool first, often placing it in my right hand, then use my left for what he wants. Sometimes it is to give me something to open, sometimes to take my hand to lead me somewhere, it used to be to 'throw' my hand at what he wants (just like VINCE!) sometimes to place my hand on what he wants to do through me.
He will reach all the way across my body to reach my left hand because that is the one used to be led to something. It's clear he sees my hand as a tool, and picks the 'right' tool to get the specific job done.

Like everything else there has been a progression in his learning this. At first, when he figured out he could get me to come do something he would come stand near me...maybe in front of the door of the room I was in and just wait. Or he would go stand in front of the light switch he wanted flipped on. stuff like that. Then, for a time he would come shove me off the chair to make me get up and come do something for him. I taught him to take my hand. Then he would pull me off the chair. :rolleyes: I taught him to touch my wrist. whew! that is so nice I'm STILL thanking him each time he does it. He has come to me to have me help him with his vcr/dvd and put my t.v. remote in my hand to let me know that's what he wants. THAT was a huge leap I was thrilled for him to make. :)

anyway...yes, I"ve always been a tool....or part of me has been and the rest of me plainly just didn't count. That is gradually changing.

[peglem]

Favor, before you do the jar idea, let's go over it.

If you are 'instructional' it won't work, hey let's frame it together first, make sure you know exactly what will happen, what to expect, what to be prepared for, before you do this. Becaaaaaause, you can use this as a catapult for complimentary roles in EVERYTHING around the house, out of the house, oh man it's real cool. I know it sounds so simple, open a jar together, but like there are way more ways to do it 'wrong' than 'right' when you are trying to guide her to gaining function. And of course, this has nothing what so ever to do with her learning how to open a jar (skill).

Okay, I'm ready- frame it! Is this something that will work if she's still a stage 1 kid? Not referencing yet. How do we do it so she doesn't get upset that I'm not functioning as the reliably efficient tool. She just wants the dern food open, y'know?

[milivica]

I'm having trouble figuring out how to word this all, can I call you? If so, pick a time that works for you tonight or tomorrow....I just want to make sure you have a clear idea of function over instruction or going through the motions. For some reason, I don't even know what to ask or how to begin a typed conversation of Q&A to make sure of this.

I don't know if this would be stage 1, or what stage it would be, I see an opportunity for growth, know what to do, know what I'd once I was there cause I'd evaluate on a moment to moment basis how what I did or guided would make her feel and think (in this one area, I don't mean her whole being). I am unsure she'll just take to this instantly if there's some foundation that isn't present - and I don't know the verbiage to describe that better. Um, I suppose the verbiage would be, that if you picture trying to have complimentary roles with a baby, can you see how that would be a step ahead of what the baby can do? That there is a 'foundation' not there? Though, at a few months old, I can totally imagine like a pre-patty cake (that might be coregulatory, not complimentary - still learning the verbiage but I KNOW the 'feel' or 'feeling' I'm aiming for Allie to experience). Also, if she does take to it right away, that means the foundation IS there. So, I'd love to be wrong about that. Awfully hard to tell online! I'm cautious about this kind of thing, never want to guess with a child.

If the foundation is there and she takes off, great. If not, I can give you ideas how to guide her, but not have her memorize an empty skill or follow instruction, she can already do that anyhow. PM me please! Let me know. I would be surprised if YOU didn't come up with 10 ideas to every 1 I think of, once I give you the gist of the function or feeling inside Allie that I'm going for. Pretty much, that feeling of 'WE', the opposite of a parallel feeling.

[milivica]

How do we do it so she doesn't get upset that I'm not functioning as the reliably efficient tool. She just wants the dern food open, y'know?

I forgot to respond to this....see how smart you are. Great point, and anything that I suggest that makes her upset that your right hand is taking too long cause YOU are trying to get involved, then I'm giving you crappy advice. RDI doesn't always have to be 'fun' but it must cause less anxiety, never more. And she does just want the dern food open - we're going to try and turn that into an emotion sharing experience. Generalize that into a zillion other things, so she feels like a 'we' with you, with others.

What really helps me, is trying things with my nt kid first, so I can get my head out of 'Vince world' before doing rDI with him.

Have your nt kid or even dh (still a kid, same difference, hee hee) hand you a jar exactly as Allie would...can you use declaratives to tell her to hold the jar with you such as, "Wow this is hard" or "Wow this is hard, will you help me" or "sure wish someone would help me twist" or "wish someone would hold the jar". What can you say or do, just to get her to touch the jar with you? Can she tolerate you placing her hand on it while you twist, or her putting her hand on yours while you twist? That will not = her feeling a part of the process immediately, it's just a start. She will in time initiate contributing to the jar getting opened. Other things you can do that are similar....you sweep she holds the dust pan. You each hold the end of a towel and come together and fold it together...not standing next to each other folding your own towels, that is parallel. See the 'feel' I'm going for? Using the towel example, you can add referencing to that activity, by her waiting until you nod 'yes' to join your ends together while folding. None of this of course, has to do with her learning to fold, doesn't matter how neat or sloppy the towel gets folded at all.

Also, I think I'm mixing up what is defined as complimentary rolls, and coregulation. I just want to be honest - the 'feel' I want I totally get. The verbiage, not always so much, but getting there. But I can tell you lots of fun things to do, while you wait for your consultant :D , that will not be a waste of time, or focus on empty skills.

OH remind me when we talk (if it's ok with you that we talk) to tell you about the 14 year old that just started RDI, she is very much like Allie sounds, I did a complimentary role with her, she LOVED it, couldn't get enough, it was so nice. I could FEEL her being close to me heart to heart, omg it was so amazing, cause I know we were sharing that feeling of 'WE' at the same time, and we both knew it simultaneously, it was so cool.

[peglem]

So, lets see if I get this- I should be going for the she's helping me accomplish a task instead of just doing it for her? I'll PM my #. And the tops are pull tops- not twist. What if I hold it while she pulls?

[milivica]

What if I hold it while she pulls?

YES, that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. But, you have to frame it in a way, where she feels a part of this effort WITH you, not that she's doing it as a means to get what she wants only, as though you are a tool.

You can also switch, when you feel she's ready for that 'productive uncertainty'. When it will not create anxiety, when it will add to her being emotionally engaged.

[milivica]

Ok...so after our talk, the game plan is:

During a moment of uncertainty, Allie will look at your face, and get guidance (nod yes or no - don't say yes or no).

We already framed one way to do that with the balloons, start there. Modify it any way you need to - you don't have to do it exactly as we talked about.

It might seem foreign at first, more 'mechanical' that emotion sharing. That's ok...have fun with it!

[peglem]

I can't believe you stayed up and came here some more! So, let me see if I got this straight: Allie looks at me, uncertainly and I scream "NOOOOOO!" and she never looks at me again? :D Just joking-I got it!

[milivica]

AAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack! Well I'm unsure what that would do to your odds of getting her to look at you again when she's uncertain, but that is what ya do if you want to give me a heart attack.

Yeah I couldn't go to sleep so good after we talked, I was so cranked up hoping some tiny but amazingly cool thing would happen for you two today, and how excited you'd feel if it did. You know, daydreaming.

[tgrimes]

When you are working on things like this, that don't really affect function so much, are you supposed to involve the child to the point they know you are working on it? or would that even matter...

[peglem]

I tried it aaand...it didn't work, but I think I know why. When I touched the marker and put out my hand then she gave me the marker and I drew something for her. Put the marker back down and did it again. Then one more time. Then I tried putting my hand behind my back- she didn't look at me, just tried to get my hand out. When she couldn't, she uncapped the marker and gave herself a pink hitler mustache! (she likes to smell markers too). When I tried again with the hands- she gave up and ran off. We tried again about 1/2 hour later with the same result-except now she has some black added in to the moustache. Glad picture day was yesterday.

So, I'm thinking that I should have continued the hand thing for much longer- until she was very certain how it should go. Like I have to create certainty before she will become uncertain about what's happening. We'll try again...She didn't get upset though-just lost interest. And dangit-just would not look at me!

[peglem]

Bumping.....Mili?

[milivica]

OH sorry didn't see this!

OMG, hitler mustache, lololol.

I might be moving too fast in my suggestions, a real consultant could totally frame this successfully. I'm hoping your amazing sense of your daughter (gee, someone besides Jenny has mommy instincts - snoooort) will make up for my serious lack of expertise.

Ok, I know we went over lots of ideas, let me make sure I picture things right.

She is used to you drawing on balloons for her.

Not only animals, but the word of the animal too, on the balloon.

Usually you are sitting side by side.

She brings you the balloon, one of you get the marker, you draw what she asks for, she goes of happy with her new personalized balloon.

Now, your objective is to create uncertainty, and she will get guidance from your face, which is referencing.

What will change is:

You will sit facing one another, like on the floor indian style.

You use two markers, one on your left, one on your right.

After you draw one piece of the total picture and word on the balloon, you will put the marker down, point to the other marker, from that cue she will be able to pick it up and put it in your hand. When she does, have your hand near your face so you can nod yes as she places it in your hand. Draw on part of the pic on the balloon, so you can put the marker down and keep going back and forth.

When you feel the time is right, could be after a minute, add variation to the left right left right marker pattern, like left, left, right right right, left, right, so there's no 'pattern'. Move the drawing, but not her, along quickly, so it's not boring, and annoying that this new game is making the finished balloon take so long.

Now, with no pattern, she is picking up markers, handing them to you with your hand near your face so she can't help but see the nod yes.....now when she hands you a marker, shake your head, wait a second, shake it yes and take the marker. Draw, put it down. Do that until you feel the time is right to do this when she hands you a marker....ok, she hands it to you, your hand is near you face, shake your head no, turn your face to the other marker, when she grabs it and hands it to you, nod yes, consider it a total success, finish her balloon. If she does not, look at the marker she is still insisting you take, take it an nod yes, because she must not be made to feel that she is 'doing it wrong'. By your OBJECTIVE, you are trying to help her make the neurological connection (as Oprah says a light bulb moment) that "hey, I can get information from that round thing on your shoulders."

What I visualize in time, is you have a pile of markers, and she will be able to touch a marker in that pile, look at your face cause she is uncertain which one you want, when you nod no she will place her hand on another marker....your only clue will be the direction your eyes are looking in (at the marker you want). It does not matter if she grabs the correct marker before you nod yes, it matters that she references you when uncertain, and got guidance (moving her hand to a different marker OR handing you a marker) from your nod no or yes. It is the beginning of much more complex referencing.

What I also visualize in time, is all the ways you can generalize this to other things in life...so that when she is feeling uncertain, she can look to you for guidance and that COMFORT a kid feels, when they have that guidance. Like a toddler, that sees a bug and looks at mom and with 'looks' only exchanged, asks 'is this ok for me to touch, is this safe' and the mom with a look only says 'yes' or 'no' - like that baby at the picnic this summer, and the piece of bread I offered.

Do you see the 'feel' I'm trying to initiate between you and Allie? Cause marker animals on balloons, is unimportant, whether she picks the marker you intend also unimportant, the only important thing is that when she feels uncertain, she looks at your face for guidance. I had a very rough time, 'creating uncertainty' with Vince - not because I had to create certainty first, he already has that!!! So does Allie, she just wants you to draw the balloon for her and quit screwing around. Once I understood how to create uncertainty, then I had a kid that didn't know he was supposed to look at me for guidance....and by 'didn't know', I mean it's not wired into his neurology - why would anyone look at you, when they don't get information (communication) from your face, right? You have to get her to realize, she can get information from your face, and I'm trying to come up with ideas, about how to do that. After talking to you, and hearing how connected and plugged in you are to her, I wouldn't be at all surprised, if you created a way totally different from my suggestions.

The main thing, keep the OBJECTIVE in mind, balloons, markers, all that doesn't really matter. Your objective is to create uncertainty, and for her to receive guidance from your face. At first, she will understand a nod no means grab the other marker, quickly though, she will neurologically get it that the face gives guidance and information, can you imagine how much you can build on that!

Honestly I can't wait till you get a consultant....you realize of course you're getting advice about referencing from an apsie that's still learning to reference. How ironic. I want so badly, to do right by you and Allie. I will really truly try my best. Just remember if at any time her anxiety increases, just stop and do what ever you used to do, RDI done right will never increase anxiety, and I'm an idiot giving you bad advice. If at any time she feels incompetent instead of guided, same thing, I'm giving you crappy advice and it is not RDI. Anxiety should go down, and feelings of competence go up, during RDI.

It's great she did not get upset, that is a major success on your part. Doesn't sound like her anxiety increased, again a success. But still stagnant in terms of progress, but happy to hear something didn't happen to make her now hate balloons forever, that would have killed me knowing I did that!!!

Can you tell I'm nervous!

It's like, if I was there, I could know moment by moment how far to push, what direction to take this. It's so different not seeing it.

[peglem]

Well, what I meant about creating certainty is that the pattern of handing me the marker has to be certain, before I try doing something different that will create the uncertainty. It has to be a surprise. So I think I just tried to go for the facial referencing too quickly (cause I wanted it to happen so badly). I think it will happen- I just need to be more patient. But, i could really see how she was so focussed on using my hands as a tool to do the drawing that she cannot do herself. When i took my hand away- she tugged at it for several seconds- clearly the only part of me she was interested in was my hand. I think this is a good activity to use, one of the few that she will almost always do with me.

[milivica]

Girl you did not read that post in 3 minutes!

Did you?

I totally understand the eagerness. I worry I'm missing minute but important steps, but think if I am, again you are so plugged into her you'd be able to assess that.

Just continue to keep the objective in mind. The hardest part, is that initial connection. when she 'gets it' that she can get information from your face, you will be able to fly with it. And I don't mean the initial connection is the hardest part for her, I mean hardest part for the parent to create - especially without competent guidance, my guidance is heartfelt and with limited experience. Funny that just cause ppl share neurology, doesn't mean we can give each other guidance or development or answers....if that were true there'd be no nt's in jail.

[peglem]

I do read quickly! I can do a whole novel in a few hours if I'm not interrupted. I'm pretty good at keeping the objective in mind- not so good at keeping Allie involved. She tends to flee when things go awry.

That reminds me- RDI structure question:

I know there are five core deficits, and 28? stages. Do they work on all five deficits in each stage? Like stage one would involve laying the foundations for developing in all five areas? Or does each stage focus on one or a few deficits? I don't have the core deficits memorized, I could go find out, but thought it would be easier to just ask you.

[milivica]

Geez that's a good question, I don't know!

I don't think (for instance) self awareness has been an objective yet for Vince. So I'd have to say no....yet the result of many of our objectives have been him gaining self awareness, like when we roller skate and he is continually aware of where he is and where others are. I really don't know the answer to that Peg, I would imagine, that the function in RDI is modeled the same way nt babies develop, staggered.

Also, the thing I do to try and understand this whole thing, is visualize a baby, how the baby develops the 5 cores, self awareness isn't one of the firsts. I know nt babies totally get information from the face, remember the experiment where if you stick out your tongue to a newborn, the newborn will imitate it - that would be....what would that be in RDI? I know it happens because of that 'mirror' thing nt brains have wired in. Would that be borrowing your perspective, and I don't know what core function/deficit borrowing the perspective of others is attached to. Dunno which one referencing is attached to either. The consultant tells me what to do, I say ok, then I have trouble doing it, she tweeks what I'm doing, then it works - or it still doesn't work so she tweeks again. It's ALWAYS something I'm not getting, never the RDI, know what I mean? Like I tend to add things (like words) to our activities, make them more complicated.

Also, I'm not sure if they have the 28 stages still, they well might - but really, it's thousands of subtleties grouped into stages, like a foundation of functions instead of bricks.

Sorry I don't know more, I can understand what this will lead to, but do not know the gagillion 'bricks', or what 'row' (stage) each brick is in.

[tgrimes]

I'm pretty good at keeping the objective in mind- not so good at keeping Allie involved. She tends to flee when things go awry.



Hee hee :D Don't you hate that when your'e left sitting there with your goal in your head... and they're long gone?

[Isabelle]

i didn't get to read the whole thing, but in my son's case since he's back, never before had this annoying controlling behaviour, he wanted me to use the same hand to give him his food and take the plate away, or anything else.
same hand or he has a tantrum meaning punching me or himself...now is not so bad, he forgets or corrects me with his hand without threatening to hurt me or himself.