Dysbiosis and Malic Acid (and introduction)

[halsgluten]

I am looking for sources and comments on malic acid (or magnesium malate). More on malic acid after my background.

I have been gluten and casein free for various reasons for five years now. The diet certainly cleared up the gas, loose stools, “migraines”, and insomnia. There was also a change in muscle pain, but over the years, skeletal muscle pain and shortness of breath continued to be a problem. Lately I have been looking at fibromyalgia and my doctor wants men to use SSRI’s. However, I want to look into fibromyalgia, at least in my case, because of the theory of metabolic upset resulting from fungal (or other) dysbiosis.

When we were dating, my wife would give me back rugs and we noticed sore points in the neck and back. Recently, I have my wife get a chart of the fibromyalgia tender points. I was tender at them all, but, my wife noted that day in the day, some of those points felt like there was a marble in each one of them. I also observed that indeed before the diet, I used to have much more compliant about those points, especially in the knees, hip, and back. So, I credit the GF-CF diet for that.

But, the deep muscle ache continued. I was also having trouble again sleeping through the night. Having read the effects of fungus (yeast/mold) overgrowth on the ability to sleep though the night, I eliminated all grains, potato, and beans from my diet (it was not like I really felt well when substituting a lot of those for wheat anyway). Wow, I started sleeping all the way through the night! (and when bedtime comes, I’m actually yawning!). Sleepier in the evening than in the morning, what a concept! Also, dizziness and fogginess improved, and muscle pain is better by half (I can carry two by fours up a ladder with no hands on the ladder!).

OK, starch influence proven, but why? I’ve been looking into metabolic influence of fungus metabolites (waste). One observation is that tartaric acid (probably specifically meso-tartaric or L-tartaric) and maybe some other metabolites inhibit the Krebs Cycle, resulting in muscle pain and foggy brain. Tartaric acid inhibits the stage that results in malic acid. I also read on RemedyFind that Malic Acid has very good reported effects for some cases.* While malic acid might be an effective palliative treatment, I would interpret positive response to malic acid as evidence of likely fungal dysbiosis. Also, I would think that relatively large doses of malic acid could impart another imbalance in intestinal microbes (e.g., headaches on discontinuance).

I would like to try Malic Acid in a diagnostic trial, but no one carries it in town, and I don’t think I felt too well eating that many apples... So, where do I get it? Is it a real treatment? BTW, Merrell Dow Pharmaceuticals holds a >patent< on treating fibromyalgia with most all formulations of malic acid!
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4877798.html

Mind you, I think of fibromyalgia as a syndrome and therefore results from many different underlying causes. I think it is turning out that microbial effects (fungal overgrowth, biofilms, subtle chronic infections by a variety of bacterial species** pulling down the defenses have an important role, or some derangement like mild cystic fibrosis.
(**Streptococcus carrier, B. pertussis (whooping cough), Chlamydia pneumonia, Borrelia (Lymes), Clostridium, etc.).


Hal


* I observed that those people who said that malic acid works on their fibromyalgia all gave details of their dosing (usually over 1000mg/day). Those stating no effect had very words an no mention of dosing. In reading papers on malic acid treatment of fibromyalgia, sufficient dosing is very important to seeing any effect (over 1200mg/day).

[mrsdoubtfyre]

and it is not expensive. But it is a very large tablet.

http://www.puritan.com/pages/file.asp?xs=852A0983CF274164B7960A9D4B3219E2&PID=195&CID=&CPID=1280

I think Puritan's is a great resource. I use it for myself and family.
They have high quality. There will be 152mg of magnesium elemental in that
formulation.

www.iherb.com has several also:
http://www.iherb.com/Search.aspx?c=1&kw=Malic+acid

[Marciab]

Hal,

Hi there ...

We're on a similar path. I was dx with CFS/ME/FM back in 1990 and I gave up gluten, dairy, soy, corn, etc back in July 2005. I've been treating for candida and toxins since then too.

So far my ataxia, myoclonus and insomnia are gone. Oh and I can sweat again without feeling like I'm going to have a heart attack. :p But, I still have trigger points, excercise induced muscle spasms, hypoglycemia and fatigue.

I gave up grains, beans and potatoes (Paleo diet) on November 1st because I read that these foods contribute to blood sugar problems. But, I'm pretty sure I got glutenned last week so I'm not sure if the Paleo is working or not ...

Anyways, I was wondering if you tried these supplements and if they helped ?

Thanks .. Marcia

[halsgluten]

Anyways, I was wondering if you tried these supplements and if they helped ?
I’m trying Source Naturals - Magnesium Malate 1250 mg three times per day.
But at the same time, I’ve cut out tartaric acid sources (doses of raisins do produce muscle pain for me. It took me too long to figure that out!!!), I’ve really knuckled down on starches and low-fructose corn syrup, and I’m avoiding histamine (tomatoes, fermented or aged foods, ground turkey, ground pork). Yes, something in all that really does helps, but it has been so hard to stay even on the low starch and low histamine diets long enough (which I now know really have an effect), I haven’t been able yet to prove any effect from the malate.

I have improved my muscle and gut pain these last two months by restricting histamine sources and triggers. While whole turkey and pork are fine, ground turkey and pork have never made me feel completely well, and tomatoes, Parmesan cheese, and sometimes pineapple make my hands or tongue burn. I'm just guessing histamine sensitivity has something to do with it.
But, I'm pretty sure I got glutenned last week so I'm not sure if the Paleo is working or not ...

It is my present best guess that most GF folks who think they’ve been “glutened” were actually “histamined” (unless they have an obviously strong gluten reaction). Google “histamine headache”.

I can have chicken and lettuce all week with no problem, but if I have chicken and duck sauce (corn starch and low fructose corn syrup) I wake up with a daylong headache. I thought it might have been a sugar problem, but sucrose is OK, but glucose (corn syrup without fructose) give the headache, still it could be a corn thing.

Glucose plus protein maximizes bacterial formation of histamine in the gut. I am looking onto whether fructose is protective factor vis-à-vis histamine. Fructose does inhibit glucose metabolism in histamine-producing clostridium, for example. Fruit, which is meant to keep animals alive, contain fructose. Grain, which would just as soon have animals drop dead, contains no fructose.

Hal

[Marciab]

Thanks Hal,

I checked out histamine causing foods. I've noticed over the last year or two that I always have a stuffy nose and I'm still getting rashes on my abdomen and red sore spots on my tongue from time to time.

I've also noticed that sometimes foods cause a reaction and sometimes they don't. I was thinking that the reason I react sometimes, but not always is based on a total histamine load, but I never realized that there were foods that contained histamines.

The histamine avoidance diet certainly sounds reasonable for those of us who are having allergy symptoms. Oh, but did you try taking an antihistamine ? I was going to try taking a little tonight.

This site gives a good list of histamine foods.

http://www.michiganallergy.com/food_and_histamine.shtml

I'm pretty sure I was glutenned. So far, I've noticed that I get my nocturnal myoclonus (jerking when going into REM) and insomnia back from eating gluten. And for the next 1 - 3 weeks, I also get fatigue and "D" and sharp stabbing pains in my abdomen from gluten, but I considered the myoclonus and insomnia as a definite sign of glutenning. This last time though, my dogs were sick and kept me up for 2 or 3 nites, so I don't remember jerking or insomnia. I did get the fatigue and "D" and am still getting the occasional sharp stabbing pains in my gut though ...

I'm glad you figured out that raisins were causing you problems. I gave up high fructose corn syrup early on because it made me so hyper I couldn't sit still. Did you know that Enfamil baby vitamins have corn syrup in them ? I've never heard of low fructose corn syrup.

Good luck with this and thanks for the tip on histamine foods ...

Marcia

[halsgluten]

I do not attribute the muscle pain/fibromyalgia to the histamine sensitivity; I do attribute the muscle pain to the same cause as the histamine sensitivity, namely intestinal dysbiosis.
I checked out histamine causing foods.
Check out also the processes that generate histamine in the gut, they are the same general processes that generate chemicals that contribute to muscle pain.
I've also noticed that sometimes foods cause a reaction and sometimes they don't
There can be a lot of variation in histamine content, especially in restaurant meats; and there can be a lot of variation in conditions that contribute to histamine generation in the gut and histamine accumulation in the body.
The histamine avoidance diet certainly sounds reasonable for those of us who are having allergy symptoms. ...as long as you recognize all of the allergy (or quasi-allergy) symptoms. Also, a thorough gut-aware histamine avoidance diet can also reduce muscle pain chemicals.
Oh, but did you try taking an antihistamine ?
Not yet. For now, I’m trying to reduce the sensitivity and am using my reaction to detect histamine. Histamines are keys and antihistamines are just keys that fit the same locks but can’t turn them. Antihistamines have no effect on the amount of histamine in the body and no effect on the cause of the histamine sensitivity. Also, because histamine makes you wakeful, first generation antihistamines (e.g., Nytol) make you sleepy. Second generation (H1) antihistamines don’t make you sleepy, but by the same token don’t correct histamine depression (H3) of other neurotransmitters (dopamine, serotonin, GABA, etc). Brain (H3) antihistamines for, say, histamine headache aren’t generally available (Merck is sitting on at least one) and would have no effect on the allergic symptoms.
I'm pretty sure I was glutenned. So far, I've noticed that I get my nocturnal myoclonus (jerking when going into REM) and insomnia back from eating gluten.
“It has been shown that histaminergic cells have the most wakefulness-related firing pattern of any neuronal type thus far recorded. They fire rapidly during waking, fire more slowly during periods of relaxation/tiredness and completely stop firing during REM and NREM (non-REM) sleep. Histaminergic cells can be recorded firing just before an animal shows signs of waking.”
It is my best guess that before the gluten free diet high histamine from gluten-bearing foods and from gluten inflammation was causing my chronic initial and terminal insomnia, and that on the gluten free diet, histamine formation in the gut caused sporadic terminal insomnia (early wake up).
Myoclunus: Histamine supresses GABA and serotonin.
I gave up high fructose corn syrup early on because it made me so hyper I couldn't sit still. Glucose without fructose has a more unsettling effect on me, I’m guessing it is the higher glycemic index of straight glucose. Fructose reduces the glucose peak.
I've never heard of low fructose corn syrup.
“Pure” corn syrup is 100% glucose and 0% fructose, hence “low fructose”. Dextrose, rice syrup, corn syrup, etc, are the same thing, chemically.

Hal

[Marciab]

Hal,

I was looking for an article I found months ago concerning this, but I haven't found it yet. I did find this one though ...

http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/fibromyalgia2.html

Yeast Byproducts in Fibromyalgia Patients

[halsgluten]

I was looking for an article I found months ago concerning this, but I haven't found it yet. I did find this one though ...
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/fibromyalgia2.html

The first web page of that report (and weak criticism of that report) prompted me to try cutting out the raisins I had been eating for snacks (before I did, I was muscle aching all over by late afternoon).
http://www.greatplainslaboratory.com/fibromyalgia.html#yeast
Having an athletic background, my particular post gluten free muscle pain reminded me of the first two weeks of a training season, which brings muscle soreness from unaccustomed anaerobic exertion. I felt like the first week of wrestling season all the time! When I read up on the Krebs Cycle, I learned that when that cycle is interrupted, your muscles operate in anaerobic mode all the time!

This report also prompted me to consider the malic acid supplements. I ask Dr. Shaw about this supplement; his advice is to treat the overgrowth, which I am trying to do as well with the Paleolithic Diet and with probiotics.

Three weeks ago I took prophylactic antibiotics for a prostate biopsy. This week, I feel just like I have clostridium overgrowth (Pseudomembranous colitis). I had many episodes of this symptom before the gluten free diet. I do seem to get milder flares of this, posibly from starch or corn syrup.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_difficile

Three weeks:...?
Mayo Clinic: Symptoms of pseudomembranous colitis can begin within one to two days after you begin using an antibiotic, or they may not occur until several weeks* after you discontinue using the antibiotic. (*I saw three weeks in another page I can't find again.)
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/pseudomembranous-colitis/DS00797
Yeah, something you did a month ago can cause symptoms today!

I’ve learned that Clostridium difficile is a histamine producer (see histamine headache). Also, Clostridium difficile is a starch/glucose* feeder and having fructose** in the diet stops the starch/glucose feeding and prosibly the histamine production.
(*in the Standard American Diet) (**in the Paleolithic Diet)

While I haven’t determined that Clostridium difficile directly produces stuff like tartaric acid, it is an important biofilm overgrowth species, thus making a home for other species (Dysbiosis) (great images):
http://www.cdiff-support.co.uk/images/cDiffLarge.jpeg
http://www.cdiff-support.co.uk/images/cDiff-Factors-Large.jpeg
Of course, it could be some other bug or some other mechanism, but Clostridium difficile is by far the most likely suspect in this case (80% odds at least).

I originally posted to find out what fybro folks here knew about malic acid -- I'm still looking into it. I am finding more about Clostridium, too.

Hal