Is this old news--serotonin link possible?

[Mayzoo]

I was browsing and found this article---It may be old new on this board, sorry have not been able to read as much as I want to on here lately.

My question is I was considering giving my daughter melatonin to help regulate her sleep. She does pretty good most nights, but some nights she is up 4-5 hours out of the "night" (my night). I don't want to go the melatonin route if too much serotonin is a possible cause for her.

http://www.emedicine.com/neuro/topic440.htm (of course this is a very long article and this is about 1/4th the way through it)

"Serotonin metabolism in autistic disorder

Evidence is mounting that abnormalities of serotonin metabolism play an important role in individuals with autism spectrum disorders. Whole-blood serotonin often is elevated in children with autistic disorder and normal intelligence. Also, in boys with autistic disorder, serotonin synthesis typically is decreased in the frontal region and thalamus on one side of the brain and increased in the dentate nucleus of the opposite cerebellum. Therefore, serotonin synthesis appears to vary distinctly in subgroups of people with autistic disorder that are based on sex and intelligence.

Elucidation of the role of serotonin in development and maintenance of the symptoms and signs of autistic disorder will facilitate development of treatments targeted to correct the specific deficits of each subtype, including gene transfer strategies. The fact that one third of people with autistic disorder demonstrate elevated blood serotonin levels gives reason to suspect that some people with autistic disorder or other pervasive developmental disorders may have abnormalities in the serotonergic pathways in the brain and other parts of the body. Chugani (2004) reviewed the evidence for anomalous development of the serotonin system in the brain in autism.

Considerable evidence indicates that abnormalities in the metabolism of serotonin in the brain characterize a large group of individuals with autistic disorder. The value of clarification of the nature of the serotonergic dysfunction has been recognized; however, most prior studies have indirectly used peripheral serotonin measures (eg, blood, urine) that are not associated consistently with the diagnosis of autistic disorder.

Further evidence suggests that serotonin receptors and transporters do not function properly in individuals with autism. Elucidation of anomalies in the functioning of serotonin transporters and receptors in autistic disorder will form the basis of specific therapy targeted to meet identified deficits. Evidence from multiple sources suggests that dysfunctions of serotonin receptors and transporters characterize distinct biologic classes of individuals with autism spectrum disorders."

Well, what do the educated scientific mom's of the BT board think on this one---I am e-mailing Dr. Frim for his advise as well and asking about the serotonin link to see what he says......but I personal experience answers as well. Anyone tried melatonin? How did it go?

Mayzoo

[milivica]

I first heard about seratonin when some mom went to get her child a shot of it for his...his pancreas? For something other than autism, and noticed wonderful effects it had on his autism.

Of course, this raises the question, was the pancreas problem the cause of 'autistic behaviors' - which is why I dislike 'behaviors' being the indicator of autism or not. A persons or child's 'function' should be assessed, the motivations under the 'behaviors'. Like RDI does.

But I have heard positive reports about it, as well as that it did nothing. I cannot recall hearing it doing harm or increasing 'behaviors'.

[peglem]

I first heard about seratonin when some mom went to get her child a shot of it for his...his pancreas? For something other than autism, and noticed wonderful effects it had on his autism.

Of course, this raises the question, was the pancreas problem the cause of 'autistic behaviors' - which is why I dislike 'behaviors' being the indicator of autism or not. A persons or child's 'function' should be assessed, the motivations under the 'behaviors'. Like RDI does.

But I have heard positive reports about it, as well as that it did nothing. I cannot recall hearing it doing harm or increasing 'behaviors'.

Uh, Mili- That was secretin!:p

Allie uses melatonin and it works like a charm for her...a wonderful little magic pill that lets BOTH of us get some sleep! Although serotonin and melatonin are both synthesized from tryptophan, they are different substances. I'm not sure one has any affect on the other. What I am sure of is after 3 or so years of hardly ever sleeping...I was ready to try ANYTHING! I still had enough sanity to try things I thought were safer first. Its worked for her- I see no side affects- your mileage may vary...

[Isabelle]

serotonin, one of our brain chemicals,is mostly manufactured in the gut where most of the receptors are....
if you think that her lack of sleep is due to a "chemical unbalance", do not give her man-made drugs, just google foods that has large amount of thryptophan (to get b3 and serotonin, dopamine, etc) far better is to give her rice milk, almond milk and organic cereal when she can't fall asleep.
melatonin is a good choice too, but see if a little food and a little talk can help.

[milivica]

Oh geez crap, yes, secretin...I wondered why there was all that talk about sleep, I didn't really read the article and meant to but supposed I didn't need to cause I knew what it was.

Well, there goes my self appointed M.D.

Nurse: Dr. Mili Dr. Mili our patient has no pulse!!!
Mili: Quick, put some Excedrin in his UV, stat!

[mrsdoubtfyre]

The serotonin made in the body, does not cross the blood brain barrier.

Tryptophan from food or supplements does cross BUT ONLY when used away from protein. The other amino acids compete for it at the blood brain barrier.
Serotonin is made from tryptophan.

L-tryptophan has just returned to the market for purchase. It is pharmaceutical grade and no longer contaminated. So you can buy it and use it at night on an empty stomach to help the brain make adequate amounts.

There are many brands at www.iherb.com much more affordable than locally in stores. Some stores do not have it yet, but GNC does at higher prices.
I just bought some NOW brand at iherb.

Melatonin is made from serotonin. So if serotonin is low then melatonin will be low.

This is about the limit that you can control. If there is something else wrong at the receptor level, that may be another issue.

Magnesium and B6 are also required with tryptophan, so that must be considered too. They are cofactors in the synthesis.

[Mayzoo]

I knew I could count on you guys to give me the "real scoop" on this. I wanted experiences and personal stories, and what you guys know.

I have sleep issues and :eek: depression (just kidding on the eek--not ashamed of it anymore) from a BAD childhood that left me with PTSD and other issues so I have heard of the magnesium/b-6 link and am trying them now with a little Valerian root when I need too they even make a lotion called calm with magnesium in it. But I will also be stuck with an SSRI for the rest of my life most likely (damage done to the receptor sites from exposure to long term trauma). I have worked pharmacy for 18 years, and I study different aspects of the interactions and cofactors a lot. But I wanted REAL LIFE info on this one, from real people who deal with this too. The world of academia is great, but I don't always trust my child's health to studies and intangible research.

Oh and millivica, I won't sue for malpractice or anything ;) --you are still awesome in my opinion *boogie . We all misread stuff from time to time.

I am researching the L-tryptophan to see which I may be the best place to start for her. I checked on the natural foods lists for tryptophan, and I think she is eating "enough" of those--I am not opposed to homeopathic options at this point. She is on several scripts includeing neuropathic "pain" meds to control her pain from the chiari, meds for spasticity, DDAVP for enuresis and zyrtec for allergies--so I don't want to add another man made pill if I can avoid it.

So far doc Frim came back with something a bit "naive" for our level in this issue----he recommended strict light/dark cycles.....been doing that her whole life already, but how can he know? I retexted with a bit more info on what has been done up to now and I will see what his second response is.

Mayzoo

[tgrimes]

Thanks for posting this - I had forgotten about seratonin levels... I read that foods rich in tryptophan are a big help in a sense of well-being and sleep regulation.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Hey Pegs,

have you tested out Allie's sleeping (without aids) since she's been doing so well? Just curious.

KJ

[Isabelle]

good mrs d is back with solid advice :D :D

[mrsdoubtfyre]

I'd like to add, that tryptophan in foods competes with other amino acids and does not get into the brain much unless high carbohydrate intake is present.

This is why tryptophan alone, taken without protein competition, usually at night leads to more effective crossing into the brain and hence availability to be synthesized into Serotonin.

So that is something to think about.

[tgrimes]

Do you think this could be the reason some people have carb-cheese cravings at night?
I am trying my best to find tryptophan-rich foods list, but every site has a different opinion. Do you know where to find it from a reliable source, like the FDA site or something?

[Isabelle]

Do you think this could be the reason some people have carb-cheese cravings at night?
I am trying my best to find tryptophan-rich foods list, but every site has a different opinion. Do you know where to find it from a reliable source, like the FDA site or something?

i wouldn't trust FDA advice on natural things....just don't take anything made in china or south africa ;) :)

[mrsdoubtfyre]

cheese releases endorphines/opiates in the brain.

Carbs release serotonin.

Almost any meat has tryptophan in it. But it also has other amino acids which compete for crossing the blood brain barrier.

This has a list of foods: from the USDA
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tryptophan

I think cheese would be modest in content, perhaps in the middle of the chart.
I like cheese at night too. ;)

[Isabelle]

Carbs release serotonin.
I like cheese at night too. ;)

i like cheese in the mornings and chocolate with nuts at night...I hope that's "carbs" ;) :p

[tgrimes]

Chocolate is listed in one of the refs on wiki as one of the top sources of tryptophan. That's why I am getting confused, usda doesn't even list it.
I know chocolate sometimes helps for this crappy body pain I get once in a while. It is almost disabling, and my gp said the chocolate thing is nonsense. So I asked him to prescribe me some pain pills then, and he says naa... stick with the chocolate!
I think the whole pain syndrome is linked somehow to serotonin... because a couple years ago I was having a bout and was at the same time starting a new prescription for wellbutrin, and noticed that after one pill, the next day I was pain free. So even though I had to discontinue it after a while (for side-effect reasons), my psych still prescribes it for prn use for pain.

Anyway, back to the subject, do you see the huge discrepancy in list of tryptophan rich foods between citation [12] (USDA) and [11]?

[mrsdoubtfyre]

Increases dopamine and norepi...very little if any serotonin actions.

There is a new dark chocolate treat out there, my hubby found it. He is the chocolate hound here.

Hersheys special dark truffles!
OMG they are divine! I will eat these, perhaps 2 a day.
Chocolate at night can cause heartburn/GERD. I can't stand it at night.. I only eat it during the day.
Dove has a dreamy dark chocolate/cherry ice cream out now. Much better than Cherry Garcia (Ben and Gerry's)

Chocolate, esp dark, also has magnesium.
most of the health benefits come from the DARK, as Milk chocolate is mostly sugar and fat.

This summer a new study came out saying only 6 grams of dark a day lowers blood pressure! (this is about the size of two Hershey's kisses). Not a very large amount at all.