Scientists make gut-brain connection to autism

[mrsjerome]

http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2007/09/27/autism-study.html

[Pamster]

Interesting article, thanks for sharing it. ;)

[milivica]

Well yeah, parents say that all the time! I dunno if there is a dietary connection for every child with autism, but I do know there are kids that become 'nt' after dietary intervention alone.

Like the article said: Treating a child's health should be the first step in addressing autism,

Which, is easier said than done - try going to your doctor and asking for your autistic child's HEALTH to be addressed. "Oh, well he has autism, that's whay 'those kids' are like".

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Oh Mili...at the risk of sounding like a broken record...that is my BIGGEST pet peeve!!!

A big junk pile that doctors can lump all "ASD" symptoms...where they just toss every friggen commonality into it, brush their hands clean, and throw them in the air!

Jerks! jerks! jerks!

I guess it's ok that our kids have chronic diareah or debilitating constipation...it just goes with the honor of being on the spectrum!

F'ers!

AND it's ok that they eat 3 foods...couldn't be that every other friggen thing upsets their stomach, it can ONLY be because they have an ASD!

MF'ers!

And oh, about that barfing...must be a sensory thing...couldn't be that something else is making them sick enough to reject it.

Even though they know pretty much nothing about autism, they can speculate about all that...

But don't worry, no need to look into it or anything...why would we even want to waste the time...

BA$TARD$!

Like, well the kids are junk anyway, why make them comfortable...

ok, I'm going to go read that now...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Oh for the love of GAWD!

I don't know whether to laugh, cry or start cheering:

Autistic children are increasingly being seen as "oversensitized," meaning "things may bother them that don't bother other people," she said. "We need to pay attention to this."


Parents should watch their children closely to determine what foods trigger reactions and to consider removing those triggers, she said.


Here's an idea...lets do a study to see if we should listen to a mother when she says that certain foods (or anything else for that matter) make her child go bonkers...WTF!

And another thing: at what point in time did a child on the spectrum's behavior become irrelavant...I mean even, I guess NT, babies are listened to...right??? A non-verbal baby that is irritable (basically complaining in the only way they know how to communicate) is 'listened to' right??? SO, what is this woman saying...once they get that loving stamp that their expressions of frustration or pain or whatever else become meaningless...but that now after this study we ought to reconsider that??? Excuse me?

ok, I think I might be in a crotchety mood today...or is anyone else taking this the way I am???

[peglem]

"Now we're learning that the brain and body can influence each other," she said.

This made me laugh! The fact seems so darned obvious to me...they're just now learning this?

My husband and I asked Allie's old doctor if we could do some gut testing. His reply: Well, she's not complaining of a tummy ache, so we can't do that. We said she can't complain about anything- and doesn't seem to know when she's in pain...Yeah, he said, that's a problem.

See, we were thinking since she couldn't tell us anything and that since something is obviously wrong, she should be really thoroughly checked out for everything. He was thinking that he had to have definite symptoms of something to justify the cost to the insurance company. But, I didn't know that then, I was medical industry innocent back then. Remember when you used to think that when someone was sick the doctor would check it out and figure out what to do about it? Now, when I go to the doctor, I already know what I want him to do and tell him to do it.

[milivica]

Kristen, No you're not a broken record. You are just rare rare rare that you got a medical answer for your child - I'm sure it was a fight and a half to find doctors that were willing to treat his medical conditions, medically.

Just imagine the older your child is, the longer that means the mother searching for her asd child who is in PAIN, is being ignored. I'm shocked when I'm treated like a 'real' mom and my child's physical problems are treated like 'real' pain. I can only imagine how mom's with adult children on the spectrum were treated like.

Peglem, me too, like helloooo, glad you finally 'discovered' what mom's have been saying for so long. Guess now it's valid aye?

Can't wait for the scientific breakthrough discovery that there is a link between vaccines and autism, ya know?

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Ohhh, Mili, Mili, Mil...we aren't there yet...and everytime one of those damn tests come back negative my credibility goes down the crapper even further! It took 2 years of barfing and FTT to get the 'potential' and now we are working our way through those...without success!

I KNOW, fructose is an issue, thanks to that original Dr, but the more negatives come back, the less the docs believe it. I've told them time & time again that if they want to see what I'm talking about, just admit him and challenge it. Still waiting!

But I still get that, "oh well he's on the spectrum" answer from some docs...we usually don't see them again. Particularly if I say, "well only if he's exposed to fructose he is" And then they generally give me a look like that is absolutely ludicris!

I guess it's easier to believe that because he has OCD behaviors, is inflexible & has poor eye contact that he should be constipated, versus a food intolerance causing it.

Oh wait it can't be that obvious, right...I'm must just be stupid, cuz I don't have a medical degree...I'll just bat my lashes and shut up now doc.

[Isabelle]

as i learned many "mental" problems are related to a dysfunctional gut. how long is going to take for the doctors to make the connection?
i see now in the not so long distant future a line up of psychiatrists, psychologies, behaviour therapists, applying for other jobs :D :D :D .....hmmm manufacturers of psychiatric drugs too and of those living off cancer....
recently the "drug" dichloroacetate or DCA is being touted to kill all sort of cancers, using it "off label" from treating metabolic disorders. a "drug" that is so cheap, easy to obtain and effective, finally, a real cure for cancers, that won't make the manufacturers of drugs for cancer very happy, as a matter of fact they would cry, poor things !

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

This is interesting: http://www.oaanews.org/documents/AutismandMetabolicDisease6.24.06DallasConf.pdf

Funny how it's a year old too...

I know not every Dr knows what every other Dr is doing...but you'd think news like this would get around, at least to the point that some drs might actually consider what we've been telling them about our children MIGHT actually be relavant! GRRRRRRRRR!

BTW - fructose intolerance is an IEM of Carbohydrate.

ps - I think I'm just looking to be peeved at someone today...I'm glad all this came up so I could blow it all off at a worthy cause, versus at DH, DS & DD....

[RathyKay]

A while ago I was watching some video from an autism conference. I can't remember who the speaker was. His comment on the doubters of the gut-brain connection was, let's go out and I'll buy you a beer. Then tell me there's no gut-brain connection.

I kind of got off-tangent on that article. I looked up propionic acid on Wikipedia. (That paper is already quoted in it.) Bacteria of the genus Propionibacterium produce propionic acid as the end product of their anaerobic metabolism. This class of bacteria is commonly found in the stomachs of ruminants, and the sweat glands of humans, and their activity is partially responsible for the odor of both Swiss cheese and sweat.
So how is this stuff getting in childrens' guts? And Peglem... did you notice it's anaerobic? Doesn't that mean most of those antibiotics won't kill it off? Another piece of the puzzle...

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

huh? I don't understand? how is it getting there? so what will fix it?

[peglem]

But proprionic acid is not necessarily from bacteria. It is added as a preservative to many grains (especially). The wikapedia article also said it is easily metabolized by the body...so I'm not really sure of the significance of it at all. I imagine if it makes sweat stink, it probably also creates some wondrous gas. It also said that if the proprionic bacteria get into the sebaceous glands, it causes acne.

Anyway, right now I seem to be keeping Allie's flora in fine balance- we have yet another great week under our belts!

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

pegs, I think we need to talk...I THINK Coleys FI may just be asymptom of yeast...

[peglem]

pegs, I think we need to talk...I THINK Coleys FI may just be asymptom of yeast...

Er..FI? Ummm, flatulance inclination? Ohhh, had to think a bit- fructose intolerance, right?


Well, Allie's yeast is most likely a result of antibiotic use, as a result of chronic strep issues, as a result of DA doctors not treating her for strep years ago, as a result of thinking that drooling and refusing food were just autistic traits. But, honestly, I think a bigger part of this is probably immune related. My other kids get sick and recover, they may get a bit yeasty with antibiotics, but they recover w/o intervention. So, I have more questions than answers-

But- Are you saying that you think Coley has trouble with fructose because it feeds the (candida) yeast? See, i don't know that much about fructose metabolism or anything, but I thought all sugars were yeast feeders. But, if its true that its yeast related, I have to wonder why he's got so much yeast and why his body is not regulating gut flora.

[JungleWoman]

Mili, I agree with your comment about the "Thats what they're like" in regards to kids with autism.

Aaron's first doctor, when asked what to do next, I got a flippant "I dunno" and she left!

Like I'd effing know!!! So I had to go find it all myself-- the people the LEAST willing to help have been the stupid Medical doctors!

[peglem]

Wanted to add- the all too recent success I've had with battling flora imbalance- is largely due to Kathy's help. She pointed me to the 3rd component that was missing- controlling clostridia (a bacteria that is not killed by antibiotics and flourishes in the absence of good yeast). I was killig the strep and good bacteria w/ antibiotics, but supplying probiotics to put the good bacteria back. But, to control yeast, I was using diflucan...what I didn't know is that there is a good yeast, s-boulardii, that is also killed by the diflucan and that was allowing the clostridia (it produces nasty toxins) to flourish. Adding the boulardii to the mix seems to have helped alot, BUT- not until we started using antibiotics regularly to kill the strep.

[tgrimes]

Adding the boulardii to the mix seems to have helped alot,.

mmMmmm... italian food always helps

[JungleWoman]

mmMmmm... italian food always helps

BWAHAHAHAH! :D

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

You guys....I'm trying to be smart here!

Yes, pegs, Fi = fructose intolerance.

And yes I'm thinking it's a yeast feeder, particularly since his FI symptoms have been largely neuro vs GI.

Coley had an infection in the NICU at 9 days old that was treated with antibiotics, then an ear infection at 16 months...

But I'm wondering now if it may be playing a role.

I've been looking into it, and it seems possible.

Amd with his additional issues lately with dairy....

I've got lots to read, and I'm hoping Hal on the Gluten board can help, but would love to hear your thoughts too...particularly with how well Allie's been doing.

[Isabelle]

explain more about sweat odours, when my son gets in those frantic "episodes", he perspires buckets and smell strongly, after hitting himself to his satisfaction (now far less) he stops perspiring and the smell fades away. I thought is a reaction to all those drugs...

you mean the excessive smelly sweat, plus SIB, is brought by some foods ???

excessive yeast? anaerobic microbes?

[Isabelle]

Wanted to add- the all too recent success I've had with battling flora imbalance- is largely due to Kathy's help. She pointed me to the 3rd component that was missing- controlling clostridia (a bacteria that is not killed by antibiotics and flourishes in the absence of good yeast). I was killig the strep and good bacteria w/ antibiotics, but supplying probiotics to put the good bacteria back. But, to control yeast, I was using diflucan...what I didn't know is that there is a good yeast, s-boulardii, that is also killed by the diflucan and that was allowing the clostridia (it produces nasty toxins) to flourish. Adding the boulardii to the mix seems to have helped alot, BUT- not until we started using antibiotics regularly to kill the strep.

what would happen if i add s-boulardi ???? how do you know for sure that allie has yeast and candida, what do you see as proof ?

[Isabelle]

And, did you notice in the video when sulana asked dr. herbert the parents' beliefs that vaccines caused their children's autism how the doctor tripped all over her words and did not give a direct answer....????

[peglem]

what would happen if i add s-boulardi ???? how do you know for sure that allie has yeast and candida, what do you as proof ?

I don't know what would happen if you added s-boulardii- maybe nothing, but its worth a try!

Well, I'm guessing she had candida in her tummy, but KNOW she had it vaginally! The no test for intestinal yeast is a real conundrum, and I thought I was taking care of it with the probiotics- but when it turned up in her vagina- she fersure had a yeast problem. Then when I thought I had taken care of the yeast, she was still having problems- that's when I started the thread @ is it possible to have yeast undergrowth. It didn't seem likely she still had yeast after 6 weeks on diflucan (or was it longer?). Her vag was cleared up...Then Kathy told me @ the clostridia and boulardii and it seemed to fit. I order my boulardii from Kirkmans. Its @ $20 for a month's supply.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Coley has the NASTIEST smelling urine breath and sweat...and we've definately noticed a correlation between the potency of the smell and his behavior.

I read that outputs can be checked for yeast and bacteria...so that the proper anti-whatever can be prescribed.

http://www.microbialinfluence.com/SCD.html

And something else that is opposite from typical FI symptoms is that Coley gets constipated from exposure.

Alright where's Kathy??? I'm WAY confused!

[RathyKay]

explain more about sweat odours, when my son gets in those frantic "episodes", he perspires buckets and smell strongly, after hitting himself to his satisfaction (now far less) he stops perspiring and the smell fades away. I thought is a reaction to all those drugs...

you mean the excessive smelly sweat, plus SIB, is brought by some foods ???

excessive yeast? anaerobic microbes?
Errrrr... I don't know that I'm going to be much help here. I really don't know a lot about sweat. Just never looked it up.

I just started with Mrs. Jerome's original link and got curious about propionic acid (mentioned in the article). My brain just works that way. Anyway, I saw the bit about anaerobic bacteria and thought about Peglem, so I posted that quote.

So... throwing out some thoughts. There is a skin rash version of celiac disease known as dermatitis herpetiformis. (If you're ever over on the Gluten Sensitivity forum, this is sometimes referred to as dh, just to confuse you with dear husband.) This rash clears up by going gluten-free. However, they've reported that the rash can reappear up to two years later. I'm not sure if it's that gluten is stored in the tissue or fat cells or wherever, and at various times the body tries to get rid of more of it resulting in the flares of dh?

(On the less sure side of things) I keep thinking that sweating is a way of detoxing - ridding the body of toxins. I know some of your son's story. I guess I'm kind of wondering if his "frantic episodes" are maybe when his body is trying to rid itself of some of the drug residue / toxins and he's figured out how to sweat them out? Kind of like the re-emergence of dermatitis herpetiformis after going GF? Especially when you say they're happening less and less often. But, I don't know how long he's been off the drugs, and this is just kind of speculation. And, maybe when this stuff is released from the tissue into the bloodstream, it just kind of makes him frenzied, and the sweating it out is more of a side effect? Anyway, so I guess I'm agreeing with you that this is a reaction from the drugs.

Going back to my quote, it did say that bacteria is only partially responsible for the smell. Heading off on another tangent from my above dermatitis herpetiformis / detox speculation.... Hal (halsgluten) over on Gluten Sensitivity / Celiac Disease forum recently started a thread on ear drainage (which I kind of interpreted as ear wax) and blood sugar (http://brain.hastypastry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16488). I think his thoughts are that blood sugar spikes feed the bacteria in his ears causing the drainage. Could that also be part of the propionic acid bacteria in the sweat glands (and if they're in the digestive tracts?)? Spikes in blood sugar causing more propionic acid production? (And more smelly sweat?)

Going back to the original article (at the start of this thread), as well as the bit in wikipedia referring to the same report... they don't mention SIBs just bouts of repetitive behaviour, hyperactivity and impaired social behaviours and hyperactivity, dystonia, turning, retropulsion (the latter four from wikipedia). But they were studying rats and propionic acid, so ??? Anyway, I am not saying "SIBs is brought on by food", but I do wonder if *some* SIBs is a direct result of food? I don't know if it's the proprionic acid causing irritation in the brain leading to the SIBs? Does it produce some intolerable buzz in the head? Is the SIB a way to have controlled pain to deal with? (The pain I induce in myself is easier to bear than this random pain in my head?) Is it affecting a part of the brain... kind of like a seizure where you have no control to stop the behaviour? I really don't know. I do not have any personal SIBs experience. (And, I pray to keep it that way.)

On the excessive yeast, you can test for it. We did run a Candida stool test on Tom through our DAN! doc. At the time, I did not feel Tom's yeast was out of control, and the tests were normal. (It is normal to have yeast. Excessive or overgrowth is the problem.) You have to remember the tests only tell you what's going on when he was tested... not two months later. With Tom, he tends to get over-giggly when he's yeasty. Everything is funny. In addition, I've noticed his ears are waxier, his calves get itchy, he is less obedient, has a harder time paying attention and sitting still. I also see the correlation between excess sugar followed by increase in yeast. After every birthday celebration, Tom is yeasty.

There was something else I was going to add, but I need to go pick up Claire. Feel free to add comments in the meantime.

[Isabelle]

well,thank you, rathykay. my son being an adult autistic and "treated" on/off on all sort of drugs for conditions he didn't have, plus suffering trauma from physical/emotional abuse, he has now a "reputation" so no doctors would even attempt to "look" at him unless is tied up in a bed with 2 security guards right there. So, he is off drugs for 14 months, his "frantic" episodes are less often,less intense, he is kept in a good diet, basic supplements... and lots of prayers.