Deputy Subdues Missing Autistic Teen With Stun Gun

[GinaMarie]

http://cbs13.com/watercooler/local_story_262115046.html

Sep 19, 2007 8:49 am US/Pacific

Deputy Subdues Missing Autistic Teen With Stun Gun

(AP) TUSTIN, Calif. An autistic teenager who ran away from home dashed in and out of traffic during his 10 hours on the lam and was eventually subdued by an Orange County deputy with a stun gun.

"It was necessary," sheriff's spokesman Jim Amormino said Tuesday in defense of the use of a Taser stun gun to subdue 15-year-old Taylor Karras. He said the mop-haired teen with a near-constant grin is lucky to be alive.

"If that were your son, would you want him Tased or hit by a car?" Amormino asked.

The teenager bolted from a social services center in Westminster on Monday and walked 15 miles down a busy boulevard, wandering in an out of traffic. Ten hours later, he was felled by a Taser fun and handcuffed by deputies near his home.

The teen was home with his parents Tuesday, uninjured and no charges filed. But his parents said they believed deputies overreacted when they responded to reports of a suspicious person near a bus stop and confronted their son.

"They (deputies) should have been on alert that there was a missing autistic teenager in the area," William Karras said.

Amormino said the teen yelled something when approached by a deputy, then ran across Newport Avenue, causing two cars to swerve. The deputy then subdued him with a Taser stun gun and handcuffed him.


(© 2007 The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. )

[milivica]

Ok, here ya go....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20844844/

At first I wasn't sure what to think, taser or save his life, seems drastic but reasonable IF he was running down the street. But he'd already crossed it. So then I thought maybe the cops were too fat to chase him, which means after practicing their aim at the taser range, they ought to pass on the donuts and eat a salad, after a work out.

Reading this, it sounds to me like they didn't taser him cause they worried he'd get hit by a car, that's being used as an excuse after the fact cause he has people to speak for him, his parents. They assumed they'd not have to be accountable at all. The cops in fact, did not even realize he was the focus of a missing person's report all day long! Sounds like to me, the cops thought he was a homeless 'bum', an UNperson (silentmiaow) and treated him as such. I can understand and imagine, this reaction if the boy was running at them, instead of away. I sure wouldn't want a job where people shoot at me like cops have. But these guys didn't even know the boy was missing. He's 15, he's 5'11", he was reported missing 10 hours before....in the end someone from the sheriff's office came to apologize AND say the cops had the right to do that. Wow, nice apology. Um, what rights did the kid have - oh yeah - none.

What do you all think?

[milivica]

The mother was watching all of this...read near the end. Also, there's some crap about the family receiving 'counseling' by the sheriff....sorry, but we had the right to do that is what he said, according to the article above. Nice counseling.

http://cbs2.com/local/local_story_261071800.html

The mom says he disappeared after saying he had to go to the bathroom, the cops say he 'bolted' out of the orange county social services place.

[Pamster]

Speechless....utterly speechless...Unbelievable...

[milivica]

Found another article I won't even post, that explains how it's difficult for police cause autism is such a mysterious MENTAL disability. :confused:

[camey]

ok---- being a former police officer I do understand what it is like to be on the other side----- yeah some instances it is necessary to use force to bring someone down and I do have nursing experience to--- autism is very difficult to deal with sometimes even if you know the person and if something set this child off sometimes they can be a little hard to control I had a simular experience with an autisic child and he was somewhat bigger than me and I had one heck of a time trying to get him under control so that he did not hurt himself or others. situation in a class room setting and chair throwing that eventually went out side I took him down with a strong arm move and attempted to hold him down and he was very strong---- I was just glad that we maintained him nicely on the ground until his mom arrived---- she seemed to have the touch---- chocolate---- hmmmm seems that if we had known we could of saved ourself the injury he inflicted upon us---- he was not injured. lets just say with many of us who delt with him that day we were all bruised and sore and little (6 foot ) benj was ok

[peglem]

What I'm wondering is...what happened with the missing person's report? I mean if Allie went missing, I would expect them to put out an APB or something, so every officer out there is informed and is keeping an eye out. Was this report just treated like another run away teen?

Also, have to comment on how resourceful this kid was- using the bus stop maps to find his way home.

[Mother's Heart]

Thank goodness he was "neatly dressed"

"But Karras’ parents believe deputies overreacted when they responded to reports of a suspicious person near a bus stop – that they had no reason to fear the neatly dressed, unarmed teen who, at 5 feet, 11 inches and bearded, appears older." http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20844844/

but let's face it< while WE don't fear our children, even when they are older, WE understand them, we know where they are coming from and we are accustomed to their unusual behaviour and their unpredictability is predictable for us...because we are familiar with them and their ways.

really, look at the photo below: IF you saw this person, a stranger to you, in a park, downtown, in your backyard, or on a street, would your internal warning systems go off to be alert...to be suspicious. What if he had a beard too? or wasn't Caucasion (face it, it matters to many, even if we say otherwise) How much more would those alarms sound if that person were alone and acting in an unusual manner? Look honestly at it: asd kids often walk with a little different gait, they do unusual things with their hands and body, they sometimes speak in an unusual voice or say unusual things, or make unusual sounds. They might make different, or no, eye contact, might not respect personal space boundaries, might not respect property boundaries, they miggt peek in windows or trespass to look at something interesting o them. Might enter open doors or they might dance in circles in the middle of the street, or wander without apparent notice of cars, or other people in a crowd. They might not respond to questions or commands, especially if they happen to be running at the same time (I learned that explanation last week.)
http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d701b3127ccebc9ccd35414a00000025108CYuHDlwzce (hmm...it's been so long since I did it I forgot how to post an image link. what'd I do wrong?)

It's not that unreasonable that people would feel uncertain about that person. It's also not unreasonable that the police would follow police procedure to subdue such a person if they don't know what's up. The problem is they should've known what was up in this situation. They still may have felt they had no choice....but they might've approached the situation with a different tactic to solve the problem if they had realized who they were dealig with.

My gut reaction, and the desire of my mother's heart is that this wouldn't happen, to my son, or to the Karras', but I know it's not at all an unlikely scenario. :( My instinct is to protest indignantly. but reality.......sigh.

I'm not even sure whether the police made the best choice or not. I wasn't there. I just hope this means more prompt assistance for the family, and not judgement or curtailing of their family/son's rights, freedom and opportunities to learn more independence.

( Gotta post this until I remember what I started out to say. ;))

[Mother's Heart]

Many police depts are now recognizing the need to address these issues in their training and protocols. This man is the father of an ASD son...I suspect he'd be a young adult now,...and also a former police officer who recognized this need and developed a training program which is now being utilized by many depts.

http://www.inlv.demon.nl/avunsi/
http://www.autismriskmanagement.com/

(sigh..."7 times more likely to come into contact with law enforcement personnel than others...")

I went looking for that link and found several links to info on P.D. policies and efforts to train in this area. here's one:

http://www.mnip-net.org/ddlead.nsf/0/64f7865ddeb237e985256e52006feb65?OpenDocument

It's really hard for me to accept that I need to register my child and personal information with the police dept when other 'normal' people who might have an encounter with police don't have to do that. it feels so unfair and like such an invasion of privacy...and kind of a judgemental thing about how we are somehow less, (un-persons) and therefore have to have special arrangements so the police can deal with us. sigh. But....the secret to things going well is often good communication. I've had a few encounters with law enforcement...usually related to DS's wanderings. The first time the elderly sheriff deputy hardly responded at all, after taking 38 minutes to arrive after I called that my 4 yr old autistic was missing. (I found him myself in a neighbors yard drinking out of the birdbath. ew.) But a few years later I began to have brighter encounters over the same situation where the same department's response was immediate and urgent and understanding of the needs/ propensities of autistic kids. They were all over that, searching quickly the more dangerous areas first and asking pertinent questions then getting the information out to the force. I was impressed and pleased, and when they found him inside someone's house that they had brought him to me themselves and were very understanding. The young officer who first responded said, No problem, then asked me further insightful questions specifically about DS for future reference. He said he is familiar because he works with the special ed kids in the public schools as part of his duties. (Do others here have communities with police/school ********s?)

Another time, again my ds ran into a neighbor's house and into a playroom (he'd visited there with previous tenants and they left their back door open) The lady FREAKED out...and really freaked out when I left without giving her my name and address for her to report to CPS...she threatened to call the sheriff's, and did. That was a long conversation with the deputy, but the deputy seemed to think SHE was the one over-reacting. I understood her viewpoint but her freaking out is what caused my son to freak out. Her husband was calm and I spoke with him, their child...and had already told him my name and shook hands, apologized etc. It's just so unpredictable how various people will respond. Most are too shocked and surprised to freak I think. :D
I used to say DS would be a great cat-burglar...he knows who locks their doors and who doesn't...not that he goes around trying knobs...he just seems to know. Thankfully he finally seems to be learning not to enter without being invited...but like everything else it just takes SO much repetition, teaching over and over the 'rules of society' so that rule can override his impulse.

okay...didn't mean to go bananas, I'm so jealous of MILI for RDI learning to be more concise. yay MILI. :D


So....thought maybe that link might be helpful to some here who aren't familiar with Dennis D's work...and I'm hoping that this situation, and the airline thingy earlier this month, might prompt us to be proactive. Anybody here brave enough to take it to their local law enforcement?

[milivica]

okay...didn't mean to go bananas, I'm so jealous of MILI for RDI learning to be more concise. yay MILI.

Yeah well I'm jealous of your son's hair. Cripe sakes, it's gorgeous.

As for RDI, you know I'll share all I can - just ask!

Last, I couldn't help but notice your word of choice was 'concise', not 'verbose'...why thank you! :D

[milivica]

geez I just saw this video clip on tv, it was terrible...this woman, half the size of the cop if that, was being taserred over and over and over, though she was headed to trying to get in the cop car. the news thing said she eventually went unconscious and was taken to the hospital. I like to try and see the other side, but that cop looked like a sadistic savage, just standing there oh so calm pressing his taser as the woman screamed, till unconscious. You could see how hard she was trying to get up and comply.

[Isabelle]

mother's heart i wish i could have his hair for a second, it's unbelievable !!! :D

now in the good times when there no tasers, about 20 years ago, police used the power of talking in persuasive manner, in a calming reassuring manner, not any more now shoot them dead or taser them down, not anymore training to use a civil dialogue :( :mad:

[Pamster]

Wow, you brought up some good points, about having to register with the police about your DS. It does feel like an invasion and we haven't done it yet but maybe we should. Not that Jackie runs off, he doesn't but it only takes once. Thanks for your long post Mother's Heart, it left me thinking a lot. I wanted to post about it too, so sad about that 40 year old man who was found dead. I don't ever want that to be my son. So I wanted to ask how many of you have ID bracelets for your kids? I am gonna get one for Jackie here soon. :)

[Mother's Heart]

I have a road id bracelet for all members of our family.

probably a medalert would be better....there are a lot of alternative versions of id bracelets out there..in different styles.

we've had this discusssion on braintalk before....about id tags....maybe on child neuro if not on this board.

[Mother's Heart]

ooh. went to roadid website....I see they have a new version "interactive" where you can keep an update-able database. hmm.

http://www.roadid.com/Common/default.aspx

[Pamster]

This is the kind I am thinking of getting Jackie because he'll take it off otherwise:

https://www.idtags.com/

And even this one he might figure out how to get off. Shoe tags might be better, only he has velcro shoes...

[milivica]

Tip for before you get anything official...I used to get so scared about losing Vince if we ever went to a carnival or some place he could wander off, I'd take a sharpie and write his name, phone, etc...

[Pamster]

write it where? On his arm/hand or something? I want something he can wear to school just in case he gets lost there. :p

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

What about one of those medic braceletts...you can put anything on them, like:

ASD, Seizure disorder
Joe Shmoe
555-1212

Although putting your home phone on it might not be the best idea...especially since you may be at a carnaval searching the grounds...maybe a grandparents number or doctor...someone that has a way of tracking you down or atleast caring for him until you are tracked down...ya know.

[mrsjerome]

I've already posted on the other thread concerning the autistic man. In the two tragic events that pertain to them, these ID's would not have helped. They wandered into areas that they couldn't be seen in so there was no one that would have noticed any ID on them. The same is true for the teenager zapped by the police. They weren't checking any ids on him before using the stun gun.

[Pamster]

True Mrs.Jerome. :( Maybe one of those medic alert bracelets would be better...

[Isabelle]

True Mrs.Jerome. :( Maybe one of those medic alert bracelets would be better...

if the child wants to wear it, my son didn't like it and broke it off his arm, so his name and phone number were written on his collar or inside jacket, but the cops' attitude is not too reassuring that they can "see" an autistic in distress. they might see a deranged man.

my son tended to run, but still looked back for my direction or gestures given calmly, but after drugs and hysteric behaviour from people who suppose to know better, his running became compulsive, impulsive and dangerous.

Diabetic, many tranquilizers new and old cause diabetes on the autistic, so double whammy...and he was a runner, perhaps on drugs, making his running unpredictable dangerous and with a drug-induced diabetes....

[Mother's Heart]

I've already posted on the other thread concerning the autistic man. In the two tragic events that pertain to them, these ID's would not have helped. They wandered into areas that they couldn't be seen in so there was no one that would have noticed any ID on them. The same is true for the teenager zapped by the police. They weren't checking any ids on him before using the stun gun.

true...but there are times when the ID's might help before, or if you can't, use the tracking devices.

[Mother's Heart]

[quote=Isabelle}if the child wants to wear it, my son didn't like it and broke it off his arm, so his name and phone number were written on his collar or inside jacket[/quote]

yes. like everything else you have to adapt to your child's individual needs and evolving abilities. Like our exit locks and alarms have evolved, so have our IDs.

early on I found my ds wouldn't tolerate wearing an id but he also would remove clothing so that wasn't much help, and if it's inside clothing where it doesn't show there's the question of if people would look for it, especially on an older child/adult, or even if they could get close enough to him to do so. I did mark clothing tags through one stage. I considered shoes tags but until his surgery two years ago he took his shoes off whenever he stopped moving. I used the safety tether straps in public when he was young. When he got old enough to resist that I held his hand but as you know that doesn't work well for shopping and can be overcome briefly (no good in heavy traffic) (my sweetie has very thin and soft, moldable hands/arms, he can slip my grip---handcuffs'll never hold the little houdini ;) )

Like Mili, before I bought commercial ID when we would go hiking or to an outdoor event I would write a phone number on him. For one time period I wrote it either on a label I stuck to the 'thigh' of his shorts or directly onto his shorts. I sometimes write it directly onto his skin, his arm or hand. Did that Friday in fact,when we got to the woods and I realized he didn't have his roadID. PRoblem here is if I use an ink pen instead of a marker it can come off. He rubs it and dips his hands in the water a lot.

The road id is velcro and I didn't really know if he would keep it on. But I got it anyway and at first he took it off. took it off. took it off. I put it back on and explained why he needed to wear it, repeatedly. I duct-taped it on. He left it two days. The next day he broke the tape and took it off. I put it back on. I put it back on. I put it back on. I put it back on... voila` he brought it to me to put it on. He now wears it most of the time with just the velcro closure. Often takes it off while he is sleeping He now wears it most of the time. He likes to wear it on the hand he flips most. It's become part of his stim. :) I've told him to show it to people if he needs help. I don't know if that would ever happen, but like everything else, if I keep telling him, and telling him....eventually he shows he got the message.

He also wears his clothes most of the time now too. (okay, not the always the shoes) But then, a naked person in public would probably get the police notified anyway...and then he'd be safer, I hope. ;)
Time has also made him a 'little' safer on his own in the world. He's less likely to just charge into water (I taught him to throw rocks in instead, that became and obsession and a major pastime). Less likely to enter other's houses, though still possible, less likely to stand and twirl around in the middle of a highway, less likely to fall off a high place, etc. you get the picture....but still he is an at-risk person outside.

oh...his size and people avoidance might make him less likely to be abducted.......how did I wander so far from the topic? adios!

[Mother's Heart]

You mentioned running.
My son a couple of weeks ago did the exasperating impulsive run off down the street (he has a play spot down there I allow him to go to ordinarily) just as I needed him in the car to leave quickly. I sternly called to him not to leave the yard,, if he left he could forget going to eat, come here! all that good unreasonable parent stuff vaguely disguised as instruction. He just ran gleefully across the neighbor's yard and down the road. I retrieved him, and didn't say aword, just calmly took his arm and walked him silently back to the car and pointed to get in. He was SO confused later when I didn't take him out to eat and made a comment that he wasn't getting to go. He wrote, I'm confused, am I not going to get to go? What happened? I don't understand? and he clearly didn't. He said, he didn't hear me (which it really seemed he didn't) He said he was busy running and doesn't hear anything else then. I believe him. After all, how can I acknowledge his inability to focus in distraction while I teach academics then expect him to hear me calling him from behind when he is putting all his attention into running across a yard? Then punish him for it? ugh.
But if I forget this, how can I expect a stranger/official who doesn't know him, perhaps doesn't even know he's autistic, to recognize this in the midst of trying to deal with a 'situation'?

Police officers deal daily with people who behave erratically and often, following non-compliance with their commands proceed to cause harm to themselves or others. The police are between a rock and a hard place. They have to play the odds. Still...... :(

[milivica]

Ok, here's the video I was talking about before.

The woman is drunk, falling all over (drunk) screaming trying to comply. I'm sure she was a pain in the butt, she was wrong yes, but wrong is not a threat that warrants a big fat cop cart blanche to tase SEVEN times with 50,000 volts each time. At the end of the video, she's kicking the cops car window STILL with the tasers IN her, he tases her more, tells her she's gonna 'get it again' if she keeps kicking his window. Totally out of line. Procedure allows him to hog tie her if she won't stop kicking, that I could understand doing too. Bu not tase her with yet another 50,000 volts.

What a giant wimp with a taser, a gun, and a license to use both.

When people were given electro shock how many volts did they use, how many times? Just curious.

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

Like I said...a big jerk abusing his authority! Doesn't eve matter anything else about it, it's just extra sad because of the woman's specifics...but they are completely irrelavant!

He needs to be suspended and sent for retraining!

[milivica]

Ok, here's the video I was talking about before.

The woman is drunk, falling all over (drunk) screaming trying to comply. I'm sure she was a pain in the butt, she was wrong yes, but wrong is not a threat that warrants a big fat cop cart blanche to tase SEVEN times with 50,000 volts each time. At the end of the video, she's kicking the cops car window STILL with the tasers IN her, he tases her more, tells her she's gonna 'get it again' if she keeps kicking his window. Totally out of line. Procedure allows him to hog tie her if she won't stop kicking, that I could understand doing too. Bu not tase her with yet another 50,000 volts.

What a giant wimp with a taser, a gun, and a license to use both.

When people were given electro shock how many volts did they use, how many times? Just curious.

OH CRIPE SAKES, I FORGOT POST THE LINK AGAIN

http://us.cnn.com/2007/US/09/21/ohio.taser/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

There might be a commercial, before the video.