What We've Learned--for John L.

[LizaJane]

After having lost BT for several months, some of us who were in email contact with each other began searching for other forums to use. As I am sure you know, John, people were very upset, and there was much speculation about what was going on with you, that you had left us cold. And, some of us found our way to braintalk2.org, which was set up as a temporary refuge.

I don't assume you've read anything at bt2 or know what was happening, but I have a few things I'd like to pose to you from the conversations there.

First, there is a some concern that you've used money we donated to braintalk to found Brigadoon. I read your Brigadoon blog, where you talk about this outright. Now it was not clear to me whether braintalk is part of a larger braintalk, inc, which has separate money which was used for brigadoon. But as a non-profit, you have a duty to post your cash/flow for donors. I gave a substantial sum to you when the servers last crashed, and I'd like to know that money was used for this community, not for your new community.

Second, the founding of bt2 seems to take into account complaints people had about braintalk. While these had not affected me personally, they had affected a lot of people. And that was that there was no transparency of how the community was run; it was a top-down affair. People didn't have access to the moderators, didn't know who they were, and had complaints about policies about banning. BT2 set up moderators who introduced themselves. This helped people feel a part of a community.

Third, something which bothered me: Braintalk seems the exact opposite of Brigadoon. There you have a self-organizing community, where there is respect for the members and ability for the members to interact as they see fit, and get feedback. Here, when the server crashed, we were as peasants in a totalitarian state. We had no access to our own information, we had no one talking to us giving us updates, and we had no reason to trust that our leaders still cared about us. It felt very unhealthy.

I'm torn now about where I belong. I'd been a member, an active member, here for years, and now my trust in you has been breached. I'd really want to hear that you are willing to change the organization of this community so that we are less reliant on you, personally, for our very breath. Are you open to this?

I'd really hope so, and I'd hope you'd check bt2's thread "forum feedback" to read more about how people wanted to see the board organized. I'd like to see everyone back here, but I'd like to see us here in a more empowered state.

You have a great job with Second Life, and have made a cool place in Brigadoon, but we need our own lives here, too. In fact, it looked BT2 was becoming our Brigadoon.

Yours,
LizaJane

www.lizajane.org

[Sharob]

Well put,LizaJane.

[Lara]

I gave a substantial sum to you when the servers last crashed, and I'd like to know that money was used for this community, not for your new community.

Hi LizaJane,

Sorry to butt in here on your thread to John Lester...
I can't comment on a lot of what you wrote, but just wanted to say here that I was under the impression right from the very beginning when the first announcements were posted on the BrainTalk Forums that Brigadoon was to be purpose-built and for the use of members of this community who wished to participate. I thought it was set up before BrainTalk Communities Inc. was registered but I've forgotten. It wasn't on my list of priorities of things to worry about. Brigadoon is part of BrainTalk Communities. Its members are part of this community. Messages were posted in the forums regarding Brigadoon. From all I've read in the past couple of months, not many people read those messages. Members here were invited to participate.

I also thought Brigadoon was setup long before John became a staff member at LindenLabs. I tend to think of Brigadoon as part our this/our community here.

Personally I'm grateful that Brigadoon has been set up and despite some people thinking it's some sort of mindless game, I feel that it's quite an amazing tool to help people interact who might otherwise not be as able to do so.

[Spiney]

I have been around since '96 and Brigadoon is a wonderful example of the heart and soul of this place. Re-read everything you can find on the site. It is a place where folks with certain neurological conditions can communicate and interact with personal safety and confidense. It is also a place of support and information sharing.

Funds for Brigadoon could/can be sent as a designated offering to BT. That is standard with any not for profit. On the same hand, one can make a donation to BT and stipulate that the $$$$ be spent on equipment or whatever one's area of interest is. That is the beauty of designated donations.

On that note, I will hush up and bite my lip. Everyone have a wonderful night.

[LizaJane]

Brigadoon seems a wonderful place, and I have absolutely no qualms about it. I was only concerned because in reading John Lester's blog about it, he described it as being started with Braintalk funds. I'm wondering where those funds came from. When I gave money thinking it was supporting the community here, was I actually supporting brigadoon?

I would like to hear from John on some of these issues.

I'd like to hear what he wants to do going forward about issues which are vital to our sense of security in our community here.

Never did I intend to criticize Brigadoon, which seems a unique way to serve a spcial population.

I've searched for John's postings for today, and there is no more information about how he intends to run things than before. I am unhappy with the lack of communication and openness.

That's all.

LizaJane

LizaJane

[oh_snap]

I don't mean to question the efforts or kindness of those that donated to BT, but, I have to wonder why those that donated feel that they somehow are "owed" something/anything from anyone?

It is true, that this wasn't the desire state...but...

In donating to any entity/or individual on the internet, aren't we all taking a risk?

We don't become "shareholders" and/or control how those funds are spent.

Perhaps, this is a good reason to not donate via the internet, to anyone, any organization; or if we do so, we accept the risk that those funds may not be spent as intended or desired?

If anything...I would think that the most obvious form of action [instead of lamenting the past] is to discontinue donating to this site, regardless of outcome. Perhaps that will send the message, once and for all...

We cannot "guilt" JLester into action. I assume if some are that "hurt" about JLester's lack of action, and/or where he spent donated funds [and his explanations are not acceptable], that a formal complaint could be made to whomever oversees non-profit organizations? dunno.

So, there, that's my opinion, and it is just that, an opinion.

[Kamie]

Liza,

I could not have expressed my concerns better myself.

Oh_snap,

When the crash happened last time, JL asked for donations to help ensure that this crash would not happen again. However, it did happen again. That is where people are upset. They want to know where their money went to. I find that more than reasonable to ask in this situation. You are correct that you cannot guilt someone into responding or action.

[SalpalSally]

Thank you for asking LisaJane, I don't think you/we will receive an answer, but you have voiced many of our concerns, and I appreciate it.

Sometimes, when you bite off more than you can chew, all important things cannot be attended to. That is the shame of it.

Carry On.

[oh_snap]

Liza,

I could not have expressed my concerns better myself.

Oh_snap,

When the crash happened last time, JL asked for donations to help ensure that this crash would not happen again. However, it did happen again. That is where people are upset. They want to know where their money went to. I find that more than reasonable to ask in this situation. You are correct that you cannot guilt someone into responding or action.

I have been a "member" of BT long enough to remember this crash [and others]. oh, lemme see, about 7 years now.

I am firm in my belief that even if JL made "promises" that donations would "guarantee" that this site would not be down, ever again; those donations, nor his "promises" could NOT guarantee that everything would stay up indefinitely.

Remember, we are talking software and hardware here. Most ISP's can't guarantee 100% uptime. Add to that, this is definitely a small, non-profit organization run by "volunteers", and money guarantees nothing.

Again, I am pretty amazed at the amount and level of expectations of so many...

Perhaps, rather than being run on donations from a few, that BT become a fee for membership site; a business so that we can discard with all this "moral outrage" and set the expectation level more realistically as it regards data storage for all time, 100% uptime, and instant/constant communication/tecnical support.

It's just a thought. Ok, I am done...time to log off, as pissing in the wind isn't my "thing".

[LizaJane]

It's not that donations should have assured the site never went down. It's that non-profits are required to show their cash/flow statements, and these donations were solicited for use to buy servers, not fund Brigadoon. I'd like to know the money was used properly.

And yes, sites go down. That's not my complaint either; my complaint is the lack of communication about this.

I'm concerned that this site is splitting into lines of people who are "for" or "against" and that's not the type of community I would want to see it become. Only JL can help us get past that.

[kdagain]

Debated on whether to keep my fingers silent on this one but ignoring my intuition.

re: Brigadoon. I can't remember the exact timeline on this one as far as the last BT crash and the assistance in donations request. I am sure at some point John will wade in on that one.... But... is that really that important?

I am a member of Brigadoon. I was lucky enough to be one of the group to try out that wonderful venture and still spend a lot of time in Second Life. All of the members of Brigadoon are members of BT. It is an extension of BrainTalk. Here, in the Forums, we have the ability to support and ask questions in a time-delay format. In the Chat rooms, we can do the same in real-time. In Second Life, that takes another whole dimension as we can engage in conversations as avatars (little representations of ourselves) in real time. The focus is still on exchanging information and support.

Due to the success of Brigadoon, where the emphasis was on people associated with Asperger Syndrome, a LARGE number of people from within Second Life have become more aware of Asperger Syndrome and autism. Many people, for the first time, as adults, are starting to realize and question and receive help in these areas. Every couple of days someone contacts me about it and/or BT.

I see Second Life as an extension of BT.. a different format for support.

John has stated elsewhere in the Forums within the last few days that Google Ads pay for over 90% of the monies used for BT.

No one can guarantee that a mechanical (or human) mechanism will not fail. No one can guarantee that it will get whole again in a timely manner. Many of us are evidence of that. And, the sad thing about using a computer to communicate is that we are not present to know all of the things impacting on the product.

I think we are lucky that with the extent of damage to the BT system, John was still willing to pull it back up.. and to take the heat for doing so... If it was me, and I knew I would get this type of response, I would probably move on and leave it.

[Mike Weins]

It's not that donations should have assured the site never went down. It's that non-profits are required to show their cash/flow statements, and these donations were solicited for use to buy servers, not fund Brigadoon. I'd like to know the money was used properly.


You have to make a formal request in writing (and I believe it has to be notarized) and mail it to the address listed for the non-profit orginization.

There is no obligation to post cash flow statements on the internet.

[triple*eee]

Well said Lisa, You took the words right out of my mouth.

The money we donated (which by the way was not 7 years ago. I went thru my paypal account and found my donation. It was April 2005 and John asked for donations to help keep another MAJOR crash from happening again.

We were told by John that the donations amounted to over $10,000. That's ALOT and we do deserve to be told where that money has gone. It was told to us that it would be used for updating BT servers to keep a major crash from happening again. Not for overhead , day to day things.

We were told back then after the last crash in 2005 that 90% of the money that keeps BT running is from google ads that's when we all donated to help.

When we made those donations, he stated that he would "personally thank" each person who donated. I never got my personal thanks. No big deal, but he didn't do what he said he would do.

What we got was total silence thru this long down time (except for the small message we got when trying to access BT. But that was quite awhile after BT crashed . I emailed him several times as I am sure lots of people did and he chose not to answer ANY of our questions/concerns.

He could have easily kept us updated by continuing to update the message that we saw when we tried to access braintalk. But once again. Total silence.

I now see this is being discussed in another thread, so this will be my only post regarding this.

[LizaJane]

i donated $1000. I'd like to see what happened with the money.

I was disturbed when i read this:


"Project Brigadoon is financially supported by Braintalk Communities Inc. However, we would like to give people who wish to directly contribute to Project Brigadoon the ability to make donations online....

I am using BrainTalk Communities Inc. as the organization to receive and process the funds. Since BrainTalk Communities is a non-profit organization, all donations are fully tax deductible, and all donations made through the "donate" button on this Brigadoon blog will be used *exclusively* for Project Brigadoon.

All donations to Project Brigadoon will be used to help pay monthly land rental fees, as well as to potentially purchase more land as the members of Brigadoon grow.

Thank you for your generosity and support...

-John Lester (Second Life name: John Prototype)"


To set up an island in Second Life, one must buy the land, and use real money to buy it. When I gave money to braintalk, I didn't intend to see that money used to buy land in cyberspace. I'd like to see the cash flow statements for the nonprofit.

That's all.

[Mike Weins]

I already mentioned that you have to formally request in writing. I did find out it doesn't have to be notarized though.

So stop bringing it up every post and send in the request :rolleyes:

[southernlady]

We were told by John that the donations amounted to over $10,000. That's ALOT and we do deserve to be told where that money has gone.

In the world of servers, $10,000 is petty cash. Good quality servers can run $3,000-$5,000 EACH and then you need more than one for a site the size of BT. I am a member of another vb forum that is ALSO on Big Boards (http://www.big-boards.com/) just as BT is. And I know that the owner of THAT forum has 4 servers and needs 2 more to keep his forum up and running. One is used JUST for searches. So $10,000 MAY seem like alot but in the world of server networking, it's a drop in the bucket. Liz

[kdagain]

Just in case anyone cares or it makes a difference, Brigadoon was established in the summer of 2004...well in advance of the big crash of 2005.

[Kamie]

Let's just face the facts. A dead horse is being beaten here. Mr. Lester will reply if he sees fit.....or he will not.

All we can do is figure out what lessons we can learn from this whole experience.

[darlindeb]

Exactly Kamie--that's true. I too was here when we were asked for monies to keep our Braintalk going, not another forum.

So stop bringing it up every post and send in the request

And Zombie Slayer, LizaJane has every right to voice her opinion and as many times as she wants--if you don't want to read it, then stop following this thread. You are able to walk away too.

[southernlady]

And Zombie Slayer, LizaJane has every right to voice her opinion and as many times as she wants--if you don't want to read it, then stop following this thread. You are able to walk away too.

Actually since ZS just got promoted to admin, he CAN'T walk away. Maybe LJ has that right but not to beat a dead horse...then it's called SPAMMING. Liz

[janie]

It is nice to re-read this thread. ;)

It is also pretty amazing that so much expectation, and consternation still exists, when there is an alternate site available to those who are "still" unhappy.:p

I cannot understand why ZS could get snapped at because he has offered very common sense information regarding how to request "where" BT's non-profit funds went...

I don't like the fact that many who donated seem to think that they should have "higher" status here (or a medal), because they decided to "donate" money to BT.

Those who donated funds to any internet operation (non-profit or otherwise), need to understand that they do so at their own risk.

When I donate to Red Cross, or other organizations, I am pretty certain that I am helping not only those that need it, but also some dude in a suit that sits in an office shuffling papers, and accomplishing nothing to merit a paycheck. It is the nature of "donating".:rolleyes:

Don't like the lack of control over where your donations go? Don't donate. Lamenting what should have been, or blathering on about what should have been done different, is time wasted.:rolleyes:

There is another site for that.

This site is for those that are loyal, and accepting of BT (and its administrators), flaws and all...:D

[dahlek]

HAS John Lester replied to any concerns posted since the comeback?

Before I had made a contribution earlier this year -while not a large amount, for my circumstances it was. I do recall reviewing/having access to financials at that time...but I'd not gotten a clue as to problems from the #'s presented.

Most important to the health and well being of BT is how the administrators/administration responds to situations in an electronic miasma that had evolved into a COMMUNITY. If there is no interaction/communication how is 'THE COMMUNITY' to grow and thrive with all the trust that goes with it? I hope it is merely an oversight.

Rite now, non-response appears to be a sign of indifference, or indignance. Lot's of folks have invested a good deal of time, energy and caring into the site... All of that made the site 'extraordinary. Pace setting even.
However, The extraordinary extent of the down-time has left lots of folks feeling that they aren't really important, valuable and that none of their participations, either personal or financial truly matter.

I believe this is either called dis-connection or dis-enfranchisement. What is ADMINISTRATION, MOD, BOARD's response to date? Very little I fear. Maybe a few mea-culpa's are in order, as well as maybe a manner/outlet/vehichles in/by which those of us could aid in the growth of a solid, viable COMMUNITY.

Thank you for your patience - j