Brand Vicodin HP not the real stuff

[Diandra]

I am having a prescription filling problem I'd love your advice/opinion on. I have taken Norco and brand Vicodin HP on and off for years. I take brand vs. generic because it worked better and I am willing to pay the difference(which is significant) for the additional pain relief. I save this brand Vicodin HP for times when the pain is at it's worst, often my last dose of the day to help me sleep.

Now this is the problem. Last month when my doc wrote the script for brand Vicodin HP I was trying to save some money and used a CVS pharmacy instead of the local Mom and Pop pharmacy I have used for years. Well, I would bet my last penny that this script is not actually brand Vicodin HP because it is not very effective....it does not give me the pain relief it has in the past and in fact, is less effective than the generic Norco and it makes me nauseous. Just yesterday, I found an old brand Vicodin HP from my previous pharmacy and even though it was 2 yrs old, it was more effective. The CVS Vicodin says it is from Abbott Labs and the Mom and Pop pharmacy Vicodin says it is from Abbott/Ross labs which I assume are the same. The pills look exactly the same, white oval stamped "VICODIN HP" on it.

I am very suspicious because this CVS Pharmacy has made some pretty big mistakes with my scripts over the last fews months and I have now decided to go back to my previous pharmacy. Is there any way I could have what I think are the fake or inferior Vicodin HP's tested? I spent significant out of pocket money to get this script filled and now I am left with these inferior pills. I did discuss it with my pain doctor yesterday and he really didn't have any solution other than to agree it was possible there could be problem with the manufacture, authenticity, age or storing of the drug.

Any suggestions?

Wishing you all well today.
Thanks friends,
Diandra

[Kathi49]

Diandra,

I will let PharmacistSteve answer this one. I just wanted to say I have run into the same thing. The Vicodin I have now is 5/500 by Abb. It is working fairly well. But I know what you are saying...and I DO think it depends on the manufacturer. The Norco I had before was generic for Vicodin and it wasn't all that great. Now what I am noticing is that the Dicofenac I have is no longer the pinkish tan pill but WHITE. And it doesn't seem to be as effective as the other I had before and is also generic. Oh, call me crazy, but I know exactly what you mean.

Anyway, and in regards to CVS. I am starting to get a little miffed. Not at the pharmacists, I like all of them but the pharmacy used to be Osco...just recently became CVS. But there have been at least 3 occasions where they didn't carry something anymore or were out and had to order it. And I know that can happen. I do know the suppliers are different...they told me as much. I am half tempted to go elsewhere but I like and know the pharmacists pretty well. Anyway, I didn't have any of these problems when it was Osco. It is just a pain to have to keep going back to pick something up. So, it does make me wonder...what is up with CVS?

[Diandra]

Hi Kathi,
I have had some serious problems with this particular CVS. One script they gave me the wrong medication and it was serious because it had an ingredient of codeine that I cannot take. Another time, they filled a script for with 90 pills and it was supposed to be 9. Another time they gave me a refill with 100 too many pills. Another day, someone else's script was in my bag, along with all my other scripts. So, I am now going back to my previous pharmacy and thinking about if I should report all these problems and to whom. I can't prove anything except for getting the wrong script as I still have it. This is an extremely busy pharmacy but, they are going to kill someone if they keep making errors.

I do appreciate their lower prices but, they obviously come at a cost, one that I am no longer willing to take.

Thank you for your input Kathi, I appreciate it.
Diandra

[Pharmacist.steve]

I am having a prescription filling problem I'd love your advice/opinion on. I have taken Norco and brand Vicodin HP on and off for years. I take brand vs. generic because it worked better and I am willing to pay the difference(which is significant) for the additional pain relief. I save this brand Vicodin HP for times when the pain is at it's worst, often my last dose of the day to help me sleep.

Now this is the problem. Last month when my doc wrote the script for brand Vicodin HP I was trying to save some money and used a CVS pharmacy instead of the local Mom and Pop pharmacy I have used for years. Well, I would bet my last penny that this script is not actually brand Vicodin HP because it is not very effective....it does not give me the pain relief it has in the past and in fact, is less effective than the generic Norco and it makes me nauseous. Just yesterday, I found an old brand Vicodin HP from my previous pharmacy and even though it was 2 yrs old, it was more effective. The CVS Vicodin says it is from Abbott Labs and the Mom and Pop pharmacy Vicodin says it is from Abbott/Ross labs which I assume are the same. The pills look exactly the same, white oval stamped "VICODIN HP" on it.

I am very suspicious because this CVS Pharmacy has made some pretty big mistakes with my scripts over the last fews months and I have now decided to go back to my previous pharmacy. Is there any way I could have what I think are the fake or inferior Vicodin HP's tested? I spent significant out of pocket money to get this script filled and now I am left with these inferior pills. I did discuss it with my pain doctor yesterday and he really didn't have any solution other than to agree it was possible there could be problem with the manufacture, authenticity, age or storing of the drug.

Any suggestions?

Wishing you all well today.
Thanks friends,
Diandra

I guess that they could have gotten some counterfeit tabs in from their supplier.. It would be interesting if they got their meds directly from the manufacturer thru their distribution center or thru their *********r. You can contact the state board of pharmacy in your state.. they may or may not have a interest in pursuing having the tabs tested... or they might refer you to the FDA or the AG office in your state.

CVS is "known" among Pharmacist as being the chain that under-staffs/over-works their pharmacists and staff. It is a atmosphere that is destine to cause errors, long waits, poor customer service .. or some of all three.

I am sure that when CVS took over Osco/Albertsons that they most likely switched *********rs and the items stocked by their distribution center... so changes in the brand of generics they have available would most likely change.

It is impractical for a store to stock a particular generic from multiple manufacturers. The insurance companies want billing NDC specific and each companies generic has a different NDC number... it is already a nightmare trying to make sure that the NDC billed is the NDC the Rx is filled with .. because a particular manufacturer's product is unavailable or has been changed as the primary source ... because of a change in price.

In general, pharmacy boards are reactive rather than pro-active.. if no patients complain - they all have complaint forms - they are not going to go out and look for trouble .. they are typically poorly/underfunded and understaffed.
I can assure you that the typical pharmacist in the typical under-staffed/over-worked chain store.. is not going to spend time investigating this.. If corporate tells them .. this is what we stock .. then anything other than that product ISN'T GOING TO HAPPEN

I can also assure you that the vast majority of Pharmacist will say that any patient that says that one brand/generic is better/worse than another .. that it is "ALL IN THEIR HEAD !!!"

BECAUSE the FDA Orange Book ... tells us that the drug are EQUAL in producing therapeutic blood levels and outcomes...

I had my own store for 20 yrs and I am now working as a temp in many settings... There is a definitive difference in mind set of those employed chain pharmacists and the independents ( Mom & Pop) stores. If you have insurance.. the insurance companies pay all pharmacies the same... so why do you ( or anyone ) put up with less than service that they feel comfortable with and/or makes them happy???

[suede]

So true Steve,

Here where I live, not a big city there is a CVS on one corner, a Walgreen's, then a Rite Aide and this is all over town, and then to top it off there are several Drug Marts and then of course the Wal Marts and Meijers and the list just goes on.

Just what is it with all this competition you would think that service would not only be better but quality also.

I guess the amount of pharmacies tells us one thing, where the money is!!

Linda

[Kathi49]

Thanks Steve,

I appreciate the info. too!

[Diandra]

Hi Steve,
Thank so much for all the information, it was helpful. I think aside from getting counterfeit tabs from a supplier, that there may be a problem with quality control during manufacture of the product or they are old or improperly stored, I have been taking brand Vicodin for quite awhile and I
know this last refill was just not right.

I emailed Abbott Labs (maker of brand Vicodin) yesterday and told them about the problem. I asked them if there was any way one of the tabs could be tested for authenticity. They called back and left a message within hours so I was surprised. I will return the call today and let you know what they said.

I appreciate you letting me know that most pharmacists will think it is all in my head...at least I know what I am up against. Thankfully my pain doc understands and did take the time to explain brand vs. generic. There is something in the brand vs. generic Vicodin that makes it just a little more effective for me and it gives me a little surge of energy. My pain doc has taken it and has experienced the same thing so he understands.

You are right about not tolerating inferior product or service(or both) because we have so much choice....we should not put up with it. I initially went to CVS out of desperation. My regular pharmacy did not have the brand Vicodin in stock and I was going out of town the next morning and they could not get it in time, but CVS could. Also CVS lets me break up a the Vicodin script so I can fill for 100 and get refills....my regular pharmacy insists I fill the entire script(or I lose what I don't fill) and that is incredibly expensive. Secondly, since I was at CVS I had all my scripts filled and was surprised how much less they were than my regular pharmacy. So that is why I started using them but after all the mistakes, I am back to my local pharmacy. I am not going to gamble with my health anymore.

Again thanks for all the info and support that you have given me and everyone on this forum. You are valuable source and greatly appreciated.
Take care,
Diandra

[Pharmacist.steve]

I worked today at a independent pharmacy - for the first time - they had their pharmacist/manager killed in a car accident recently and they have found a new pharmacist/manager but will not start until Sept 1 ... so a lot of Pharmacists are pulling shifts to help them make it thru....

In talking to the techs .. one of the other pharmacist that has worked there... had recently filled in at a CVS store - for the first time - and said that he would never work there again .. all they were interested in was how fast/how many you could fill... being done right was not a high priority.

I have never hear a pharmacist that use to work for CVS or one that directly knows someone who works for CVS ... speaks well of them...

All I know is that of the various places I have worked . .the tech tell me that they can tell the difference between temp pharmacists that are former independent owners and those that have never owned their store... and they all prefer to work with a former independent... something to do with the mind-set and taking care of the patient more than taking care of the paperwork...

[shotspine]

That is very scary!!! I wonder if they have had any fatalities traced back to a CVS pharmacy. It seems this kind of wide spread indifference in a professional where people lives are at stake would be under intense scrutiny by the 'powers that be'. Why is no one doing anything?

[Pharmacist.steve]

That is very scary!!! I wonder if they have had any fatalities traced back to a CVS pharmacy. It seems this kind of wide spread indifference in a professional where people lives are at stake would be under intense scrutiny by the 'powers that be'. Why is no one doing anything?

As I have said before Board of Pharmacies are reactive rather than proactive - they don't go looking for trouble.. and often they have little or no power .. they cannot take legal actions on by themselves.. but refer actions to the State's AG and without enough political pressure ... things are not pursued....

Last year .. there was a big to do in a number of various areas about pharmacies throwing out HIPAA protected information... I didn't see any chain store taken to task - other than by the local media and now it is water under the bridge...

These corporations - like most big corporations - have hundred of pages of policies and procedures... the pharmacists have no say in staffing hours but if something goes wrong ... the corporation always comes out and states that the employee DIDN'T FOLLOW COMPANY POLICIES... WE - the corporation - IS BLAMELESS!! and/or they will make an announcement that they have instituted a program to RETRAIN employees in corporate policies... so that it won't happen again .. at least not until the next time!!!

In some states - like Kentucky - there is no limit on the number of tech that each pharmacist can over-see. These mail order outfits .. set up operations in states that are more lax on the number of techs/pharmacists ratios...

Pharmacies - like all of healthcare - is caught between the financial pressures of ever lowering reimbursements, increased labor costs - due to both the shortage of healthcare professionals and every increasing paperwork demands .. all being driven by the insatisable greed of the insurance industry for more and more profits and an ever increasing share of the total medical dollars...

[shotspine]

Steve...Many Thanks for spelling it out for me. My heart hurts for all those suffering the consequences. I am going to send a great big hug and Appreciation card to MY pharmacist. He is the best of the best. It is a small pharmacy in a small town owned by 2 brothers that work it by themselves with one very long time employee that handles the cash register, mailing, etc. I am SO lucky to have them. Wish my luck with Drs. was equal.

THANK YOU......We sure are lucky to have you here to educate and help so many of us!!! So I'm sending you a big hug and my sincerest appreciation!!!!!

[Pharmacist.steve]

Unfortunately... too many people believe that the BIG corporate pharmacies are better because they are bigger...in reality ... until their increase in the number of Rxs drop off .. they will treat their patients - and their employees - with little regards.

The people that get hurt the worse - or given the worse service - is the ones who are the sickest or oldest and the ones who will typically " just let it ride" and not complain .. because they don't have the mental/physical energy to do so.

The Pharmacy board charge is to protect the public health ... but they typically don't go out of their way to try and find out what is really going on .. unless patients complain and LOUDLY... to date ... this has not happened... to any degree or sufficient degree to make a noticeable pattern for the state board to act on...

IMO.... it is a sad state of affairs.. I suspect that if the boards did take a lot of actions ... and they suspended a lot of pharmacist's licenses then that would put that much more pressure on those that remained and would make it rough for the chains to keep all their stores adequately manned and open.. could see a lot/most of the 24 hr stores go BYE-BYE...

[Diandra]

I spoke with Abbott Labs and they were not willing to help at all. Said, if I wanted the meds tested I would have to do it at my own expense. They had no interest in any investigation at all.
Diandra

[Pharmacist.steve]

I spoke with Abbott Labs and they were not willing to help at all. Said, if I wanted the meds tested I would have to do it at my own expense. They had no interest in any investigation at all.
Diandra

You might want to check with the FDA.. of course .. you don't have the lot number/expiration date of the lot that they came out of ...

[shotspine]

WHAT??????????? Why would they NOT care? It seems to be a very simple thing for them to test a pill. Do they not care if their products may be counterfeited? This thread is really disturbing to me as it just seems that no one really gives a damn.....from the mfr to the pharmacist.

[Diandra]

Hi Shotspine,
I agree with you 100%. I was rather surprised at their answer. The interesting thing was that I emailed Abbott Labs and within 48 hrs I had 4 return phone calls left on my answering machine. They were so anxious to return my call but, not to help. To me, it just proves the manufacturers of these prescription drugs make way too much money to care about one little consumer....it is just not worth their while. I know I would certainly want to know if my product was not up to par, for whatever reason.

Hi Steve,
I am going to drop it at this point, it seems all I am doing is spinning my wheels and expending energy that I cannot afford to expend. Thanks for your help and support thus far.

Thanks friends,
Diandra