OT: elderly who are dying

[Roman]

My new girlfriend is a nurse. She told me how few days ago she had to watch someone dying. From what she told me, it turns out there are clear signs when someone is about to die. FOr example, few days before his death he could take care of himself, walk, etc. But then during the night of the death, he was no longer able to move or speak, they had to turn him from side to side, etc. She told me these are common things that happen to ppl when they are about to die so they knew he would die in few hours, and he did.

Anyway, once I learned that death is so predictable, the first question I asked was how come they didn't call emergency. She told me that they are asking the dying elderly whether they WANT the emergency to be called or not, and sometimes they say no because they feel they lived long enough, plus they are in such a pain that they want it to end.

Personally, I can see why some elderly would want to die, but I totally disagree with the way they would let them die if they want to. I mean, it is like allowing suicidal bipolar patient to kill himself. I mean, suppose they were to call an emergency, and suppose the emergency helped them so that they are no longer in such a pain. Then at the end of the day they might be GREATFUL that they called emergency instead of having allowed them to die the way they wanted to.

And also what if the last minute the patient changes his mind and decides he wants to live after all, but alas it is too late for emergency to arive let alone help. You see, you can always reverse the decision to LIVE, but you can't always reverse the decision to DIE. So I totally don't agree with allowing a person to go and no longer EXIST (neither his memories or pride of what he accomplished in life) just because he couldn't think straight while in pain and chose to die.

Finally, I don't agree with the statement "they lived long enough" either. I mean, if they die, they won't be there to remember their long life, so it won't matter any more that they lived for one second. So don't they want to live so that they can remember their long lifes and take pride in what they accomplished?

Anyway, if it was up to me, I would just pass a law that when the elderly is in pain they are REQUIRED to call an emergency and do the best to save his life, no matter what the patient says. What do you think about that?

[LIZARD]

What sense is there in attempting to preserve the life of someone who doesn't want to live? Isn't wanting to be here the real reason for joy in living? Without the joy, why bother, especially if you're suffering with no relief in sight?

LIZARD :confused:

[Isabelle]

as a person who has embraced dear beloved ones on my arms at the moment of exhaling their last breath I can tell you no every death is accompanied by pain and, i have to add, they were asking for their doctors to "treat" them even though they knew their cases were terminal. eternal optimists, aren't we?

[Roman]

What sense is there in attempting to preserve the life of someone who doesn't want to live?

BUt who is to say they will NEVER want to live? May be

a)They will want to live once they are helped and their pain is not as great any more. Yes there will still be a big pain, but not AS big so they will be able to think more clearly and realize they want to live

b)May be they will want to live in 2 hours once they regret the decision they just made of not wanting to live but it will be too late

[Roman]

as a person who has embraced dear beloved ones on my arms at the moment of exhaling their last breath I can tell you no every death is accompanied by pain.

From what my girlfriend told me yes every death IS accompained by pain. But even if you were right and some people were dying without pain, they are not relevent to the discussion because presumably they would choose to live. The only people who are choosing to die are the ones who ARE in pain and are hopping their pain will go away once they are dead. Thats why, as far as THEY are concerned, how do you know they are not "blinded" by pain and their opinions are to be trusted?

[CanRelate]

Roman:

In the scenario you listed in your opening post, I do *not* see any helping along of death. I see the lack of emergency being call as "no extraordinary measures". This is not that same as assisted suicide, and is not "helping death along". A person long suffering with a terminal illness, or just "elderly" who wishes to die "naturally" is not analagous to a "suicidal bipolar" who is in an episode....and who has probably hastened things by self injury or overdose.......as I picture your example. I do not see how these are comparable.

There *is* a point in the death process where the person is still alive yet beyond pain. I have seen it myself several times over the years when elderly friends have died and I was blessed enough to be around in the days (and sometimes hours) before they breathed their last breath. My sister is a nurse and has been a nurse for 20 years and spent 8 years as a hospice nurse where she visited those dying at home (rather than in the hospital) surrounded by familiar people they cherished in their life, as well as being surrounded by objects which held good memories of their lives. Being at home surrounded by love and slipping away is much more peaceful (and loving) than being again in a hospital in a sterile hospital room without room for family who wish to be present. Being at home after a long painful terminal illness (certain cancers, or which have spread throughout the body, ALS....and I am sure a long list of examples...) is a BLESSING. In that situation, the discussions have usually already been had, and the person has said at some point "NO EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES". Can THEY change their mind? Sure! But it is THEIR choice. Absent the ill person saying "I'm not ready to die..." or indicating something like that, the prior decision should be honored. We shouldn't keep a body alive just because we can! And certainly not against the expressed wishes the the person in that body!

Letting go is not suicide. The elderly in your example don't appear to have atempted suicide. THey are just letting go after a long fight or after a long life.

My parents (in their mid 70s) have stated, "NO EXTRAORDINARY MEASURES". They don't want ventillators, or feeding tubes to keep them alive in a coma. They do not want to carry on with a severely compromised quality of life. THat said, they are exercising, socializing, eating properly, and enjoying the fruits of their years and 50 years of marriage. They both have health issues, but they are keeping active and engaged in life despite these issues. But when faced with a severely diminished quality of life, they have stated they want nature to take its course, and they don't want their lives to be prolonged.

My view and opinion of the issue you have raised.....

Regards,
CanRelate




From what my girlfriend told me yes every death IS accompained by pain. But even if you were right and some people were dying without pain, they are not relevent to the discussion because presumably they would choose to live. The only people who are choosing to die are the ones who ARE in pain and are hopping their pain will go away once they are dead. Thats why, as far as THEY are concerned, how do you know they are not "blinded" by pain and their opinions are to be trusted?

[Keggy]

Hmm Canrelate beat me to this one. But I will put in my two cents anyway. I work with suicidal patients, some of which have made it pretty far and are suffering the consequences of attempted suicide (which can be dreadful).

Yes, my patients are borderline, bi polar or any number of other psychiatric disorders. They, and others do not have the right to die in the US because they are miserable or otherwise. I have patients younger than you Roman who have always wanted to die, yet they will be kept alive at all costs until a natural death occurs.

However, if they were dying, they *should* have the right to die without extradinary measures being taken.

When my father passed two years ago, I felt he could have stayed longer if some things were done. I was disturbed about this because I had no control, my sisters had all the power and men of his age have a high suicide rate.

I know exactly how it feels when you are in so much agony you want to die. Its not the best time for people to make such decisions, which is why we select people to make decisions for us during these times.
BTW... not every death is neccessarily accompanied by pain.

[milivica]

In the cases of elderly who have had AMPLE time to think about and consider the end of their lives, I do think they should be able to choose their destiny as much as they are able, yes. There would be too many exceptions to that, for me to list of course.

When my beloved grandma, my only grandma, was put in a nursing home to die a slow and painful death, withering away, bed sores you could stick a fist in, I'd have rather they let her stay in her own home and died sooner, with all of her respect and dignity.

When a man that I loved like a grandpa decided 'no more' treatment (complications from asbestos) and wanted to join his departed wife that had passed 15 years earlier, I asked him, "Are you afraid to die" and at that moment he straightened up and completely proud and strong said, "Not at all". He died that week, I think it was the right decision versus taking that strong proud man and keeping tubes stuck in his sides and down his nose. His 'tone' in his answer, just everything about his 'body language' or 'attitude' has since made me no longer fearful of death.

And I agree, not every death is painful. I died once (for under a minute) and though I didn't see a tunnel or departed loved ones (maybe I didn't die long enough) I can tell you I went from 105 fever and the worst pain I've ever felt to feeling this sense of peace and lightness of the mind and body, I could never describe it. If you could remove everything negative about having a mind, body and feelings...so what is left over is only peace - that is what I felt.

There's so many extenuating circumstances to every life and death, there is no straight yes or no answer to this I don't think....but I will say I think someone who is 90 has 'more' right to decide his death than someone who is 50 or 21 or 12...though I'm not sure that I have an 'age cut off' for when one is old enough, just the older you are, the more life experience you have, so to me the more right to decide. I'm a quality versus quantity kind of person. I'd rather live twice as well, half as long. And by well, I mean with happiness and peace, not partying or something.

[frogmama]

people get born, people die, hakuna matata, it's the circle of life.... Big fish eat the little fish....mmmmm, fish.....when is dinner?

"May be they will want to live in 2 hours once they regret the decision they just made of not wanting to live but it will be too late"

You can't spend your life (or death) second guessing yourself. Hey. I had kids, sometimes I think that was a bad decision but you can't change your mind on that one either. I've also got a tattoo I'm not real thrilled with (but 2 more I like). Why should I or you get to say "you must live" or "you must die", I don't think I'm qualified (or my ego isn't big enough) to decide that for anybody but myself.

In my very humble opinion, most people don't really fear "death" they fear what might happen after death - what is next? I'm interested in finding that out! I believe in "reincarnation with mulligans" we get to try again until we get it right, no logical reason, I just like it. :)

[Tootsie]

What I find most frightening and alarming about this discussion is the feeling that someone feels that they have the right, responsibility or authority to pass laws, telling us what kind of experience we should be allowed to have during the dying process.

Certainly everyone should have access to proper pain control measures, no matter what their condition. When, and how, to stop extraordinary measures, to prolong life, is no one's business except the person experiencing the condition. Cheerio.

[Lara]

This shows the importance again of having a living will and having open communications with our loved ones or relatives or children so that a person's wishes are perfectly clear. Make it into a legal document.

While I'm thinking about it, it's also really important to discuss with loved ones about organ donation. Where I live, even if the donor is registered as an organ donor, when the time comes a relative or the family can change that decision. Frankly I think that stinks. It's my body, it's my decision, but for now, that's how it works here. Not sure how it works over there.

From the perspective of someone who was a nurse, there has been a lot of thought gone into this matter. Also from the perspective of just one human being, a lot of thought has gone into this matter as well, but I have two or more lines of thought.

It's not my place to make a decision on someone else's behalf, but I can certainly at this point in time make a decision about myself. Now is the time to make sure others know my thoughts and not later. Later I might not be able to communicate or worse.

So, I did not vote.

The poll said "they".

To me that's looking at it from the perspective of a nurse, or a doctor, or a relative or whomever.