Dinner time tantrums daily!!! Help

[MomofJosie]

I am so tired of the performance we have EVERY night at supper time. I used to love to cook, but this daily scene has made cooking a real nightmare. We sit at the table every night to eat and my poor son and daughter have to put up with this nonsense daily. Joanna only wants to eat cereal or any sugary food. She has such a limited diet. She will eat some yohurts, jam(jelly) or honey sandwiches, banana and mealie meal porrige. She will not eat meat and has to be forced to eat proper food {veggies and meat). She is low toned but had no problem eating chewy sweets, so we know that the texture is not the problem. I know you're all thinking "FORCED"!! but she needs protein and has gone off egg. The other night, I had to babysit for another family and left the kids with my long suffering husband. The meal I had prepared was dished up and Josie proceeded to have a one and a half hour tantrum, while Pete sat firmly with a large glass of wine and his head in his hands and spoon fed her. She is now 10 and we have had this forever! I am so sick of it and am at my wits end. We are rather firm parents and Josie's siblings are two fantastic kids, so we must have been doing something right.
Do any of you have a practical suggestions or have a similar situation. How do you cope besides feeding Josie before we eat as a family?

[Sai'sMom]

We have the same problem. No one has any advice for us. He is very strong willed. I honestly don't know how he stays so healthy. I have started vitamins and efa to make up for some.

[Isabelle]

I am so tired of the performance we have EVERY night at supper time. I used to love to cook, but this daily scene has made cooking a real nightmare. We sit at the table every night to eat and my poor son and daughter have to put up with this nonsense daily. Joanna only wants to eat cereal or any sugary food. She has such a limited diet.
Do any of you have a practical suggestions or have a similar situation. How do you cope besides feeding Josie before we eat as a family?

I think you know the answer, if she depends on you for food, eliminate from your house all sugary sweets she is craving for (did you rule out parasites or yeast in her gut?) and let her starve for a few hours ignoring her tantrums (does she have self-injurious behaviours?) then introduce small amounts of meat, chicken with some veggies and fruits, touched with a bit of lemon to get the gastric juices going.

have you tried the gluten-free, casein-free diet?

[RathyKay]

A couple of thoughts popped in my head... take them or leave them. Tom initially liked meat as a toddler and then at some point, he quit eating it. We went dairy-free, and then a year and a half later, we went gluten-free. It wasn't until we went GF that he started eating meat again and liking it. He also starting eating vegetables without gagging when we went GF. I won't pretend that he loves them, but he will eat a bite of squash / spinach / kale / green beans, etc, in exchange for a bite of what he does want... which is now meat!

I just finished reading "The Crazy Makers: How the Food Industry Is Destroying Our Brains and Harming Our Children" by Simontacchi. (And should you decide to check it out... the first few chapters are really depressing on what we should have been eating during pregnancy and what we should have been feeding our infants and then toddlers, but the end is more hopeful.) She had a couple of vitamins and minerals that she talked about. The three that I remember her talking about the most are zinc, magnesium, and potassium. Unfortunately, the book was returned to the library (today of all things!). I *think* zinc is the mineral of interest. I do know for sure that it affects smell and taste (lack of zinc, lack of taste). I *think* she said that a zinc deficiency makes it harder to digest meat.... so those deficient tend to avoid it. (It might have been a different deficiency, but I'm pretty sure it was zinc because.... Tom has epilepsy. When he was a toddler, we switched him to a seizure med that is known for depleting zinc. I'm not sure when Tom gave up eating meat, but it makes me wonder if it coincided with that seizure med.) Other mineral bits of interest, potassium deficiency symptoms include muscle weakness. I guess I'm suggesting that you look into vitamin / mineral supplementation and see if that helps.

Tom is small for his age. When he was really picky about eating, he would rather starve than eat whatever veggie or dish we were having. I gave up trying to force him. It was more important to me that he ate something. Too many times he threw up the little bit of supper he had eaten when I tried to force him to eat one green bean. He had a few dishes he liked, and I made extras of those so that he could eat them when we had whatever else we were eating. He ate a lot of split pea soup, peanut butter sandwiches, spaghetti (made with broccolli, to get something green in him), and cereal in those days. Anyway, he never threw tantrums.

[moose53]

Very good ideas about checking the diet for chemicals and gluten and such.

I had one other thought:

Since having Josie EAT with everyone else seems to be the primary problem, have you tried sitting her down just before dinner at her own little table and giving her what she wants to eat?? Then when she's done, have her come and sit at the dinner table with the rest of the family, but, leave all the eating issues out. Maybe just give her milk or juice or something that she can manage on her own to munch on while you guys are eating. Having Josie eat graham crackers with spreadable fruit and a glass of milk while everyone else is eating is not a bad compromise.

Just from years of watching kids and parents fighting over food: if you make it a FIGHT, it will *BE* a fight :p

Oh, what Kathy said reminded me of something else, it might very well be that she's having trouble digesting some foods. Since the stomach is part of the immune system and ... You can combine foods to make whole proteins -- beans with grains, things like that (been a long time since I did that diet, that's really digging deep in the recesses).

Kids are actually pretty good about knowing when they're hungry and knowing whether or not they want to eat a certain type of food. My thoughts were that you if "give up" (I know that's hard) trying to control that area and widened the boundaries a bit on what you accept as 'tolerable' behavior, you might see a difference.

Kids like attention -- any kind of attention. I'm not saying that that's part of it at all. But, it has become part of it. If you just "gave up" the fight over the feeding, I know that you'd all feel much better. She's not going to starve to death. Maybe, too, if there's less 'stress' around the mealtimes, it would work in Josie's favor in the long run.

Try some of the textured protein products in the produce section of your grocery store -- just to see if it's actually the texture or the taste or something else that doesn't agree with her. I actually prefer vegetarian hot dogs, even though I haven't been a vegetarian in years and years. I love the vegetarian chili and some of the other "meat substitute" products.

Hugs.

Barb

[wallyw1]

Take a look at the Specific Carbohydrate Diet. Here is a list of the legal and illegal foods:

http://www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/legal/legal_illegal_a-c.htm

Wally is 40 years old now. We tried the Feingold Diet when he was about 8 or 9. It seemed he did a little better--wasn't cured but he seemed to be a little more comfortable. Then eliminated milk--it was apparent we had to do that as he was spiting it up. Then eliminated wheat when he was in his late 20's or early 30's. Then I just eliminated what seemed to bother him. Around 2004 we tried the Specific Carbohydrate Diet--there are some sugars that are allowed--and he was so much more comfortable.

It is so difficult when there are other children in the home who need our love and attention. Maybe they can be enlisted to help. Diets turned our household upside down. Maybe setting up some discussion between yourself and your husband where Josie can listen in on what your are worried about as far as her eating habits are concerned would eventually be helpful. It is a long on-going process. Maybe changes can be taken on in stages--dealing with eliminating or adding of the most important foods first. Good luck with whatever you do.

Wally's Mom

[MomofJosie]

Hi all

Thanks for all the suggestions. I like the one where we let her eat before we do and then sit her at the family table. As far as her aversion to meat goes, she was born with a transient metabolic disorder and so many kids who have this, have a natural aversion for the very thing that their bodies can't metabolise. In her case, she had a problem metabolising proteins which is obviously not great for a kid with developmental issues. Josie was on a GF/CF diet for a few months which made absolutely no difference. I have figured out that I can give her snacks that help to balance her diet like nuts, raisins, rice cakes, apple, and other dried fruits. As long as it tastes sugary!!
I am thrilled to tell you that I have managed to get a Autism Behavioural therapist to do a home visit on Wednesday at supper time and can't wait to hear what she says. I will let you all know what she says. In terms of parasites, we deworm Jo regularly, but we should perhaps look into the yeast story.
Thanks again everyone. Oh the info on Zinc, Magnesium and Potassium I find very interesting and am also going to give a try. Thanks. I really do believe that long term use of these things can hav a significant effect. She started on Ambrotose a month ago(sponsored by a wealthy aunt!!)So it is early days and we hope it helps, even if it is in some small way. It has already helped with her constipation. On that charming note I will end!
Jen

[Keggy]

I am with Isabelle... this sounds like a behavior issue more than anything else. If she does not eat dinner she is not going to starve. She needs to learn proper behaviors at the table, and it must be taught in a concrete method. I would remove her from the table, without food, until she can return to the table and eat dinner properly.

[wallyw1]

Jen--Having a behaviorist come in seems like a great idea. I hope things get lots better for you and Josie. Hang in there and let us know how things go.
Wally's Mom

[Mother's Heart]

also consider if she may be having trouble handling the sensory environment.

There may be an intolerable auditory or tactile element contributing to her behaviour. I've learned from my son and others who suffer sensory integration problems that often their meltdowns that seem to be reactions to demands or refusals to comply are actually inability to cooperate or respond because of 'that horrible noise"

so...if the dryer or air conditioner is running int he house, perhaps the dining/kitchen floor is not carpeted and having people sitting around the table clicking or scraping silverware on plates, talking loudly, moving their napkins on their laps or scooting the dishes (really, my 'nt' niece and my son both freak out over the napkins and the plates moving) perhaps a flourescent light buzzing or flickering, etc. You kind of have to approach the dinner like you do a classroom and consider what is distracting or torturing your child while she's trying to perform the task? For us padding the table, making sure appliances are turned off, using non=flourescent lighting, and especially talking softly have made a big difference.

Also making sure transitions and demands are more gradual....not abruptly demanding he take a bite or move over, etc.

allowing him the most independence I can, without subjecting ourselves to a bunch of food/utensil throwing helps. He needs the respect of independence. I try to frame our physical controlling of his behaviour in terms of I'm holding your hand to help you do it yourself, to help you keep your food on the table instead of losing it when you throw it etc. So he knows I'm not just trying to force him to do what I want...but I'm trying to help him be successful in doing what he wants/needs.


writing this reminded me of those peaceful meals we had when the kids were younger and my blind dd was so light sensitive. At least once a week we ate in the dark, or by low candle light so her eyes could rest and SHE would be the most competent one at the table. I didn't realize at first that those meals were more calming for my son as well.

[Mother's Heart]

another aspect:

my son does best during the times when I set his plate at a place on the table, or the breakfast counter, where he can have easy access to it and allow him to come and go. So he takes a bite, paces around the room or back to his room then returns to the plate for another bite. Certainly not ideal and not great manners, but he eats even on days when sitting at the table will not work for him.

also he does better through a meal if before-hand we do some deep pressure activity. or brushing/joint compressions.


oh...and none of this affects his eating particular foods he doesn't like/want. We too have protein issues....or had for quite awhile. You have to sneak it in with other foods or in a form she'll like. It's finding that which is the trick, eh?

protein drinks? When my son had some serious protein deficiencies our dr suggested supplementing with protein drinks like Boost (but allergic to soy so tricky) and Instant Breakfast.

[MomofJosie]

We have had the behaviourist to visit and true to form, Josie threw an even bigger tantrum than ever! Her suggestions made so much sense. The first one we are trying is trying to get her to eat a tiny amount; one teaspoon- of a non-preferred food ( whatever we are having for supper that night) at a table away from the kitchen table where we eat each night. She is promised a preferred food afterwards. Once she has eaten the spoonful she gets taken to the kitchen table where she gets to have a plate of cereal.(which she loves because of the sweetness) Slowly we will increase the number of teaspoonfuls of non-preferred food and decrease the amount of cereal. Eventually ask if she would like to eat the non-preferred food with her brother and sister and give her the cereal for pudding.
My daughter is doing graph work at school and so she and her brother are graphing the process and the amount of crying. They are so excited about this family 'project' .
She has a few other suggestions that we can try eg taste testing etc.
So we are embarking on this journey positively but with our feet firmly planted in reality!!
Incidently, this behaviourist was so positive about all of your suggestions and said she would visit this site to get more 'pearls of wisdom'. Moms always know lots and lots!! Thank you all.

[moose53]

Hey, Josie's Mom http://chocolate-moose.p5.org.uk/MINIS/hola-001.gif

Sounds like another great way to get Josie to participate in the eating process.

I love the idea of getting the siblings to graph her progress.

It might very well be that getting her to particpate more in the choices and also watching those old graph numbers go up (we ALL love that!!) that she'll realize what fun she's been missing by not wanting to eat with the peeps.

You're doing such a great job of finding a way to help Josie, I just know this is gonna work for you'all :cool:

Hugs.

Barb

[Kristen (ColeysMom)]

We have the EXACT same issue - my god, 10 yo, how the heck have you kept your sanity??? Coley is 4 and mine is just about gone!

I've gotten to the point though that I am not tolerting it any more...things may be a bit different with us tho cuz I get reports from school that he DOES participate and follow snack time rules, so here's our latest approach:

He doesn't sit, he goes to his room - period! (until he can join us prperly at that table)

He sits and whines about what's there, he goes to his room.

He sits and doesn't eat what we have prepared, he goes to be hungry!

I have no room left for negotiations here...I put up with crap all day...I am DEMANDING a nice quiet meal, 1x/day that I can enjoy!!!! :eek:

Lot's of good creative advice above though!!!!

Oh...We used a feeding therapist for a while - did nothing for us, but I've heard they are VERY helpful for some...you may want to look into an evaluation.

Good Luck!!!

[MomofJosie]

Hi Kirsten
I haven't checked the forum for a while, sorry I didn't respond. It has been some time now and ona really positive note, we have a LIFT OFF!!!!

The advice I was given has worked. We haven't had a peep out of her for weeks and have had absolute peace at the suppet table.
Josie eats her three spoons of non-preferred food at the table in the diningroom. She is reminded that once she has had this, she may join us in the kitchen for her choice- cereal. She then comes and joins us all at the kitchen table and is seated happily. We show her her cereal bowl ready for her before we take her to eat the few spoonsful of whatever it is that we are having for supper that night.
We began with one teaspoonful and when she stopped whinging about that, after about three nights, we increased it to two teaspoons. We are up to about 4 spoon now and have begun to decrease the amount of cereal.
We are also finding that occasionally when we are having a food that we know she likes, we can go straight to the kitchen table and there is no more nonsense. Perhaps she just has forgotten that moaning at the table is something that she was meant to do!!! Or she is getting used to happy time at the table.
Whatever the explanation, dinnertime is soooo much better. My other kids remark regularly, but I make sure they don't talk about it in front of her. I don't want them reminding her!!

I hope you can figure a way out of this. We tried the time out method often, but had not luck. We also tried to show her that if she didn't eat what we were eating, that was it. It didn't work. It may end up working for you. Remember they are all so different(but also special!).

I'm thinking of you. God Bless!
Regards
Jen:)

[moose53]

((((((Jen)))))),

I'm so glad you found something that works for you and Josie (and the rest of your family).

Isn't it amazing when we can finally figure out what they WILL accept from us parents :p

Hugs for all of you.

Barb

[milivica]

My kids eat most anything, but I remember being a picky eater. I was a 'salt' kid, not sugar. Any chance you could put healthy foods in the middle of the table and let everyone arrange their own plates? Would she do as you and the other kids are doing if you all just modeled what to do, but didn't say anything. Not saying she would right off the bat, but (and mind you I'm saying this without seeing what she's doing) any chance this is a power struggle kind of thing? If so, give her some power of choice, if she references you to see your reaction to what she takes, make a game out of it, "Ohhhh, don't you eat that green pepper!" so she can 'defy' you.

Also, any chance she gets abdominal pain after certain foods or some other issue that would mean there's a physical reason why she resists? Soft dairy like milk, yogurt, ice cream, give me horrible cramps later. My daughter too.

I've heard of a book here, called "Just Take a Bite" and have heard good things about it. Check it out on www.amazon.com or where ever you shop for books.

Assuming she is acting out of taste preferences alone, nothing physical or having to do with texture...imagine yourself being served a plate full of food you don't like the taste of. Now, what would it take for you to want to eat it? Personally I'd have to be starving - or - it would have to be my favorite color (it would have to look good TO ME). Not that food dye is healthy, but would she go for say yellow cauliflower or blue rice or red noodles, etc... would that look good to her? What about her favorite things...like if she loves trees use a carrot stuck in a pineapple slice for a base, cut 1/2 a green pepper jagged like so it looks like a palm tree and stick it on the top. I used to make their sandwiches with eyes and smiles and so on, I'd let them create their meals from choices in front of each kid. Does she like a particular cartoon character or tv character? Any way to 'draw' that or make foods look like it, even a symbol from the show?

Just some thoughts. I CAN understand feeling like you must force her to eat meat and veggies, but wonder if she'd eat them blended with yogurt or some type of food she likes, even in a milk shake - yes it's gross, but hey it all goes in the same place. Though as a kid, if my food touched, forget it! Ok, I still don't like my food to touch (most chinese food and thanksgiving food is ok to touch though :D ).

Ok, so assuming she hates the food you want her to eat, hates the taste and /or is doing the power struggle thing, put yourself in her place, what would make you WANT to eat the food?