Autism and capacity to lie?

[Mayzoo]

I have heard some autistic children do not grasp the concept of lying ie...they don't lie since they don't understand how too. Is this common or is it like all other things associated with autism---child specific? Just curious....I guess this is sorta a poll. Do your autistic kids lie to you to your knowledge, and if so how hard is it to modify?

Mayzoo

[Roman]

I was actually wondering about the opposite. I have Asperger and I am theorist I live in my head a lot and my "thinking" is very disconnected from the "doing". In a lot of ways this makes it much easier to lie because "the lie" and "the truth" are just two alternative "theories" inside my head, making them indistinguishable.

I guess it is the same kind of thinking that I use in physics. In physics they might ask me, say, if you through a ball by a certain angle where would it fall? Now, asking or answering this question WITHOUT actually throwing a ball won't make me a liar would it? Or if I go from one problem to the next and the assumptions change, it won't make one of the two problems "wrong" would it? So for me life is the same thing: it is about KNOWING how to do things as opposed to DOING these things.

So suppose I know that someone would be happier if I do X, but there is no way for them to find out if I did it or not. Most likely I won't do it and lie to them that I did (even if there is nothing unplesant about doing X other than spending extra 5 minutes or so). And no it has nothing to do with being selfish. The thing is that just the fact that I COULD have done X without any effort makes it feel like I actually done it, so why bother? So the fact that it feels like a truth makes me feel like I didn't lie at all, and if I get caught I would feel "misunderstood" that the other person fails to see how easilly I COULD have done it.

Even if it comes to more serious lies, still viewing the life from the scientist perspective (something VERY common among autistics) would enable you to lie. For example, when you do math and make a mistake in calculations, you cross it out. In a sense crossing it out is like "lying" that you never wrote it. This is okay in mathematics, so when an autistic assumes that mathematics=life it becomes okay in life. The reason in case of math it isn't lying is because what you MEAN is not that "I never written with pencil this particular thign" but rather you mean "I no longer belief this particular thing". In case of NT, math is about THINKING while life is about DOING which is the cause of the difference. But in autistic case life is also about THINKING. So, similar "lies" in life no longer feel like lies either.

For example, if I have a girlfriend and a better girl comes alone, I would lie to her that I am single. But I won't view it as lie because in my head the statement "I am single" is the same as saying "IF I KNEW you would come alone THEN I would of been single" while the statement "I am taken" is equivalent to saying "I have some problem controlling myself so that even if I knew you were going to come alone, I would of still had that other girl as a girlfriend because it would of been physically impossible for me to do otherwise". Clearly, the former is a lot closer to the truth than the latter. Hence, I can lie and sincerely feel that I am telling the truth; on the other hand, if the "real" truth comes out then I would feel "misunderstood" because surely it was POSSIBLE for me not to date two ppl at once, so I shouldn't be accused as someone "physically incapable" to resist that urge.

BUT HERE IS A BIG ONE. I AM NOT CAPABLE OF LIFTING 200 LBL, SO I WOULD *NEVER* LIE THAT I AM CAPABLE OF DOING IT. WHY? BECAUSE THE FACT THAT IT IS *IMPOSSIBLE* MAKES IT, INDEED, FEEL LIKE A LIE. ON THE OTHER HAND ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT IS *POSSIBLE* FEELS LIKE A TRUTH.

[mc4_a]

My daughter doesn't lie. She usually just refuses to answer the question.

[Keggy]

My dd had to be taught to lie, and now she will *sometimes* mislead people (me) a little, but it is hard.
Its a combination of two things. That very strong sense of justice they carry, and the rationale for lying just isn't there. It is a matter of keeping things concrete. If you make adjustments for little things (or big) which are lies, it leads to not knowing what can happen next. You know when our kids are learning transition its often difficult for them because they need to know what is next. They need the same, a routine... you loose that once you start to lie.
She didn't cheat either, but now she can... and will do it in fun, but not for real.
As a teen I see the biggest problem now for her is understanding the difference between rules and guidelines. Since she is rule-bound, most things.. even simple guidelines become hard and fast rules not to be broken..which of course can be a drag.

[LIZARD]

Lying is considered a cognitive milestone, and Drew can lie :rolleyes:, but it took awhile before I first heard him do it. I think he was 10 or so. Many of our kids have to be--um--taught, as Keg mentioned, but we should also teach them when it's okay to fib on occasion, too.


LIZARD :)

[peglem]

Lying is considered a cognitive milestone, and Drew can lie :rolleyes:, but it took awhile before I first heard him do it. I think he was 10 or so. Many of our kids have to be--um--taught, as Keg mentioned, but we should also teach them when it's okay to fib on occasion, too.


LIZARD :)

Bold added by me. There you have the dreaded "judgement call". You can give some general guidelines as to when it is okay or not, but you can not possibly cover everything that might come up. I'll bet Mili has some RDI insight concerning this issue.

[Lara]

Interesting question and something I've wondered about a lot lately.
My son is grown now, but he is more likely to walk away or refuse to answer if it's something he's asked about. He's always been very blunt and says things as they are if he says it at all. He also tends to think other people "lie" about technical things all the time but they're things that to me are not lies they're just statements. e.g. If you say the ocean is very blue today, he'll go off on a long technical rant explaining how the sky isn't really blue and why would I say that etc..

This might seem a little contradictory but it's a different situation... I see one of his biggest issues is with understanding the whole concept of lying by others. He was very naive in that regard a few years ago but has learned some hard lessons. There were a couple of occasions where he's been "befriended" by another student who didn't have good intentions and he lent them money and lost it. So, to me the more serious problem for him is that he doesn't understand when other people are lying

[milivica]

If you say the ocean is very blue today, he'll go off on a long technical rant explaining how the sky isn't really blue and why would I say that etc..

HA! I love this kid...I could have seriously hung out with him when I was his age, and happily joined in this technical rant - well I'd either have taken it over or been unable to take it over :D

Peglem, RDI insight on lying, lol. I don't think I made it to that Stage yet in the program, and even if I did...how would you know, I could be lying, hee hee.

Ok, the scoop on lying (just my opinions). Vince lies as a 'skill', knowing if he says the truth about something he will get some unpleasant result like yelled at. So he can calculate like a flow chart if he says 'yes' this will happen, if he says 'no' that will happen. More or less what a toddler would do. It's mechanical, not natural...it's a SKILL.

Lying as a 'function' would mean you first have to be able to 'borrow the perspective' of the person you're about to lie to. Borrowing perspective would also help protect you from lies of others. If you can borrow the perspective of others, the skill of lying or capacity to lie would then come naturally. Just as when you have the function of self awareness, no one has to keep telling you to put your pants on. The skill of staying dressed, just follows when you have the function of self awareness. RDI would teach borrowing the perspective of another, as well as self awareness, so they child gains these functions.

What's really so tough about asd neurology, and not even so easy if you're nt, is the fact that what the mouth says and what the person means is so terribly different - add to that the fact you cannot get information from body language, it makes communication difficult. Now having said all that, imagine trying to grasp lying functionally, when grasping regular communication is challenge enough. So yes, autistic folks lie, but I'm betting 99% chance that the lies are logic based, not because the person has the ability to borrow the perspective of another.

I have though about it, and think it's why I do so well here, there is not body language on computers, just words. And 'just words' is all I have anyhow even off the computer. I think that's why overall autistics do really well online. Having no body language or 'tone' of a voice or any other number of communication tools nt's have in person, none of us have here.

Ok so the original question: I have heard some autistic children do not grasp the concept of lying ie...they don't lie since they don't understand how too. Is this common or is it like all other things associated with autism---child specific? Just curious....I guess this is sorta a poll. Do your autistic kids lie to you to your knowledge, and if so how hard is it to modify?

My answer is yes autistic children definitely have the capacity to lie, can grasp the concept of lying - and that will come with their ability to borrow another's perspective, as well as understanding another is borrowing their perspective while they speak. Lying to not get punished, might not require that function. Lying to alter the perception of another does require the function of borrowing another's perspective. Focus on the FUNCTION (borrowing perspective) not the skill, lying. If a person can borrow perspective, autistic or not, they skill of lying is sure to follow unless you're like Ghandi or something. Though I understand you did not ask how to make your kid a liar...I just want to be clear about one function necessary, to lie. And that would be the same function necessary to modify too much lying (borrowing perspective of others). So, it's not that autistics can't lie, it's that they can't borrow perspective of others well. Which, with RDI, can absolutely be developed. Vince has, it's really amazing to see him grow, like I waited for all those years when he was a baby and toddler.

[Lara]

Something weird happened yesterday which made me think about this thread again. I'd mentioned my son's lack of understanding or seeing when others are lying to him. He's not a suspicious type of person. Tends to think everyone has good intentions and that's why he's had people take advantage of him in the past regarding money.

Well, he's got this part time job and someone came and bought something and paid for it with a stolen credit card. Didn't know it was stolen until later... Anyway my son told me later it was a young guy and the sale went through fine, although the guy was using a card which had a very unusual name on it. eeek. 1. my son didn't realize this unusual name was a woman's name. He'd not heard the name before. 2. he just figured all was well because the sale went through.

After a co-worker picked up on the sale later, my son said he went to the computer and downloaded some printouts about credit card fraud so that he'd know exactly what to look for in the future. When he got home his words were... "How am I supposed to know these things??? Do people think I was born with this knowledge???" lol, just like that!

What he did was take everything at face value from his own perspective. He didn't think to check for fraud or anything illegal. No one had ever told him that people would do that, or how they do it. Now he knows and it won't happen again, but it's as if he thinks within his own bubble and unlike other people he isn't on alert for fraud, illegal activities, or danger at all. Obviously this is something that needs some more work.

[milivica]

But ya know, everyone tends to judge others using them self as a standard. Right? It takes developing those good old milestones, to be able to see ulterior motives though you might never have those motives yourself.

I remember a riddle here, that I didn't get. I don't think anyone here did. It was testing weather you were a sociopath (or some word like that). The riddle was, that two sisters were at a funeral for their mother, at the funeral, one sister saw a man she thought was cute, but being it was a funeral for her mother and all of course she didn't flirt or anything. Well, a few days later, she killed her sister. Why?

Think for a moment...the answer is below

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The answer was, she killed her sister cause she thought the same man might come to the sister's funeral as well, then she'd get to see him again.

That is not an answer that would have ever occurred to me, cause it's soooo totally far away from where my brain is at. However, I know that's very far fetched, but to our kids, credit card fraud is just as far fetched. Ya know? Honestly, I would have just assumed the guy's mom gave him a girly name, and had the song "A Boy Named Sue" by Johnny Cash in my head all day. I might have thought it was a stolen card, but I doubt it - I would now after hearing this story of course, but that would not be my first thought. I'd have to be in a 'routine' I establish in my head....like 'always ask for I.D.' or something.

If you want, tell your son stuff like that happened to me ALL THE TIME in the workplace, to this day my least favorite phrase is 'common sense' cause if that means having the same sense the 'majority' of people have, I do not have that. I do have my own common sense, that meshes with aspies though. Now, I wonder if there was something odd about the magnetic strip or some absolute (not abstract) if your son would have noticed...when no one else would have...bet he would have. I hope his boss and co-workers realize, he's the last guy there that would ever steal, seeing as how it never occurred to him someone else did. Hope they didn't make him feel bad about it. Tell him not to feel bad about being honest minded! It happened, he knows now, and it won't happen again. Lots of people make the exact same mistake as him - that's why there's such a thing as credit card theft. He has nothing to feel bad about, it's done, it won't happen again. The man who stole and used the card is the one who needs to feel bad.