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View Full Version : Weary Wife, Concerned Kids, Leaky Husband.....


LauraL840
04-30-2007, 05:50 PM
I bet you get LOOONG posts like this all the time LOL ... I'm going to TRY and make a long story short and leave out all the DRAMA, but I'd love to hear opinions and advice once you've read it!

July 11, 2003
DH contracts viral meningitis on vacation in No VA. Confirmed by LP and labs as 'enterovirus' through ER. Expected recovery 10-14 days. Hospitalized next day for 4 days, in bed for 2 weeks, too weak to make 5 hour drive home. Has 'meningitis' headache constantly for 2.5 months then has an HOUR without headache. Takes over 3.5 months before headache resolves. We later determine he likely had encephalitis (had total memory loss of 3 weeks and short term memory loss for 4 months or longer), AND a CSF leak from his LP site.

September 1, 2006
DH has headache. Says it feels the 'same' as the headache he had 3 years ago and goes to bed early. Next day it's worse (add low-grade fever and nuchal rigidity), I get online to review his symptoms and it's back to the ER with what looks like meningitis AGAIN! All tests reveal he does have meningitis again, however it's not classic viral, aeseptic or bacterial. It turns out to be r. rickettsia bacteria from a tick bite. Diagnosis - bacterial meningitis caused by Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever. This confirmed by LP and labs (titer for RMSF). Follow up with ID doc (Infectious Diseases) who says after his 10 day course of antibiotics he should be good as new. 3 weeks later he still has the meningitis headache :(

We go for a blood patch and he gets a little improvement, but not complete relief. The EPB was NOT done with flouroscopy (of course we didn't know anything about anything at the time, so we didn't know this wouldn't be 'as' effective). When he didn't get total relief we assumed (please, no jokes lol) he didn't have a leak, plus it was so darn painful (like a horse kicked him in the middle of the back) that he had no desire to go for another one. Since it took him so long to recover from meningitis 3 years earlier, we figured it was just going to take some time.

By DECEMBER his headaches were worsening and 'new' symptoms were appearing (visual disturbances, ringing in ears) and we became concerned that he'd suffered damage from the rmsf disease process to his brain. RMSF causes vasculitis, which is why there's a spotted rash, and he never had any of the classic symptoms so we were concerned that the vasculitis had damaged his brain. We ended up at a neuro (1/07) who was hyperfocused on this being 'something' else not related to his illness plus rebound from months of tylenol, tramadol, and ibuprofen ... so the idiot prescribes indomethicin and some other analgesic pain med, both of which ALSO cause rebound! I begged for an MRI w/ contrast and he sent us off for that (2/07).

We never went back to see him and called UNC neuro for an appt, had to get referred in and seen immediately! MRI showed damage, but that damage would not be causing his symptoms and is likely benign (although we won't know until we clear this darn headache up). Another LP performed to rule out chronic meningitis, Lyme's disease, and coinfection of other tick-borne diseases all came back clear, however opening LP pressure was 15 mm Water (I think it was H20 and not mmHg). So he's low pressure and the whole 'it might be a leak' theory pops right back into play.

Forward to now.... He had another EBP last Friday, VERY VERY slow gain of some relief occurred Friday (pain scale that day started at 6, was a 5 by PM), a little more gain Saturday although headache was still up and down (5 to 4 to 5 to 4 to 3 by days end), Sunday (2 to 3 to 2 to a .5 -lowest since 9/06 and in a small area at back of skull), Monday ... the whole darn thing blew within two hours of him moving about the house. Went from a 1 to a 9 by Tuesday night!!!!! Now he's leveled off a bit between 2's and 3's which is a little better than pre-patch. The NEURO had to CONVINCE the anesthesiologist to patch him, the anesth. was NOT convinced that DH has a leak, yet no one really wants to do a myelogram to find out for sure.

We need a 'game plan'. I need help finding out what's the best plan for us. Here's what I am convinced of:

My DH's dura is slow to heal. First LP in '03 took about 4 months for complete healing and likely caused scar tissue to build up. This puts him at a 10% risk of developing meningitis again.... Second LP in '06 is done while he's infectious and dura is under increased pressure from meningitis infection and when the doc 'popped' him, his dura tore under pressure. So now it's 8 months later and he's still leaking, still greatly increased risk for meningitis (which he's now survived twice), and there's scar tissue that isn't helping matters.....

I don't really want him to have another LP for myelogram but for crying out loud, we need resolution! He's 49, we have 3 kids under 8 who are worried constantly for their daddy, and on July 1 he becomes police chief of a medium sized department of 160 +/- people. We can't go endless rounds of EPB's if they aren't going to work. We're praying this next one brings complete healing, but it can't if the blood's not there long enough. Anesth. is Prof and Dept Chair at UNC and hasn't used fibrin, so I'm not sure if we'd even be a candidate for that. Plus I'm not sure he's 'sold out' on the leak theory as it seems everyone he treats is 10 days post LP or epidural puncture....:rolleyes:

Thinking we should ask for a spinal MRI don't know if gadnolinium will help or not, to try and go least invasive to most invasive for determining leak size, but do any of you know if any of the 'studies' can determine the 'size' of the dural opening? I've read scads of studies, but obviously my dh is very ATYPICAL ... (darn it, if you have to be 'good' at something, could you have picked ANYTHING else!)

Advice, opinions, anything????

Thanks! I'm sorry this is so long, but I think it's (mostly) pertinent stuff!

SIGN ME ------->
Laura
(Weary Wife of Leaky Lover..... )

eman
04-30-2007, 06:03 PM
Weary wife,

he sounds just like me. My symptoms started from an LP, 4 blood patches didn't make me right, and I was disabled, until 5 mo post LP, my symptoms resolved. 8 mo later after the flu they returned. I would try to get fibrin glue injections on the known puncture sites. I've been trying to get this treatment, but have found much resistance. People who don't respond to BPs, typically have fantastic results, (70-80% i hear). Doctors may not do this unless you absolutely PROVE there is a leak on Myelogram, which involves more sticking, and Myelograms are notorious for not showing your leak, even when it's there. Let me know what happens.

eman

eman
04-30-2007, 11:10 PM
I just wanted to add a little more. It sounds like your hubby has a clinical history of the symptoms after the poke. When My symptoms returned (flu brought them on 8 mo after recovery) I was thinking "damn, did I spring another leak?" I saw Wouter Schievink, and he thought noway, it's the old leak. Symptoms were on paralell. I had an attempted repair, seemed to have failed. Sounds like your husband has low pressure, normal brain MRIs? Just for your info, 1 out of 5 chronic CSF leakers has "normal" brain MRI. So don't let the doctors fool you and say nothing is wrong based on those. Sounds like your hubby thinks it the same headache. I say, if it walks like a dog, barks like a dog, it is a dog. Being that my injury is post LP trauma, you'd think I could find an innovative thinker, someone who would be willing to try a few things that just might work, but I can't. I haven't so far. So if you find a doctor who is able to follow a trail of logic and will try fibrin glue without 100 more pokes, let me know.

eman

Concerned Gal
05-01-2007, 05:44 AM
Woh, full on story. My heart goes out to your family. My advice....

Firstly, the one thing that jumped out at me is that when you describe your husband's headaches you didn't mention whether they were only occuring when upright, whether there was any relief from lying down, what brings them on. I'd be interested to know whether they are typical "leak" headaches which improve within 15 mins of lying down (with the exception of long term leakers who it can take longer for it to come good after lying down). Is it worse when his head goes forward (ie bending)?

Second thing, is I can't believe they would do a blood patch on someone who they thought had meningitis three weeks earlier(sep 06). Talk about chancing more infections etc. The fluoroscopy with bp can help if you know exactly where the leak is, but if they were doing a lumbar one, they generally do most lps etc at L4/5 so if the leak was in the lumbar, the bp should have had a good chance at getting to the leak site (Lp site). From memory bp can go 2 verterbrae down and 4-6 verterbrae up after injection.

Has he had an MRI with contrast to check for meningeal enhancement? The low pressure reading from the lp is interesting, but with him being so sick with meningitis I would think that would have had to have some effect on his csf. But in saying that a leak does sound possible. Was there any herniation of the brain tonsills on the MRI (Chiari malformation)? Another sign of a leak that some people get.

With the last bp, did your husband stay immobile afterwards? With my bps, I've been immobile (supine position no getting up for anything) for 24 hours, the third was supine for days (like a week) only getting up to use the bathroom. Friday to Monday isn't a huge amount of time for the blood to settle. I think the blood hangs around for 9 days post bp which is why I always say lie around for the nine days and give the blood the best chance to be in the right spot to heal.

On the spinal MRI, I personally wouldn't bother. I've been there...twice. The spinal MRI is good for picking up structure problems with the spine, but you don't have a hope of seeing issues with the dura. They can do a close up type on to look at the nerve roots, but even that is a bit sketchy and often leads nowhere. So, spinal MRI in my opinion, only good if you think there is a significant structure problem which could point them in the right direction to look further, but even then it would be inconclusive.

I'm not convinced the symptoms are all from the lp site. I'd say he probably does have weak dura, but I think this is more than the lp site leak. I really think he needs a myelogram. Yes they aren't fun, probably risky for someone who has had meningitis but I think this is your best bet. They didn't want to do a myelogram on me either on account of me being thin at the time and the radiation being intense, but they ended up doing it anyway and least it gave me something to go on. A myelogram will allow you to look further into the leak issue and answer a few questions. I think it's his best bet...

All the best. If you have any questions, feel free and I'll try my best to answer them - I've done a bit of reading over my time ;)

LauraL840
05-01-2007, 09:30 AM
DH's headaches occur pretty much all the time. When they get really bad (5+) he can lie on the carpet and rest backs of calves on chair (looks like he's in a chair on his back) which puts more pressure on lower back and get some relief. He's NEVER had total relief. It usually takes 15-30 minutes for relief. Headaches aren't worse bending his head forward but he does still have issues with spikes in pain when he stands after sitting. That doesn't happen all the time, and come to think of it, I don't think I've seen him 'knocked back' by a spike since the EPB. (That's promising!) Pain over last 8 months has intensified with light and loud noises, stress and exertion.

Back in December he had very VERY atypical headaches ... pain intensifying while lying down, spiking throughout day, etc. We are absolutely convinced that he did indeed have rebound headaches from analgesics and he went from January until April without taking anything for pain (which broke the rebound cycle and about broke him).

He was on imipramine for 4 months (first neuro Rx'd) as a 'preventative' but we both LOL since you can't hardly prevent what you already have and NOTHING helps these types of headaches with exception of narcotics, which of course I'm sure everyone here knows, you can't take orally without a big fat dose of tylenol (for rebound). He's also tried Lyrica which did nothing but make him bleary-eyed and dizzy, unable to drive or function and cost us $60 to find that out. So the neuro-resident @ UNC (bless her), following his low-pressure LP and no response to all other meds, prescribed him enough narcs to knock out a horse in April. He won't take them and work or drive, so only uses at nights and weekends as needed. However, he used them for several days post EPB and went right back into rebound cycle so he's now, once again, unable to take ANYTHING for pain.

The EPB that followed 3 weeks after meningitis was done ONLY after they did a CBC 2 days before to rule out infection. This past EPB was done 5.5 weeks after CBC.... :(

MRI was with contrast - the original radiologist (private imaging center) said nothing related to meninges, tonsillar herniation. Just 'multiple foci of signal hyperintensity in the deep white matter likely representing areas of vasculopathy and/or vasculitis consistent with the history of RMSF and meningitis.' I have ALL, and I mean ALL his records including his Sept CT and Feb MRI on disk. Now, the original radio never mentioned his small pineal cyst either, SO.... at any rate, UNC neuro had their radio read again and his comment was meninges looked like they were 'healing' (not normal or healed). Also that they white matter damage is similar to damage seen in migraine patients, although DH has absolutely no Hx of headaches other than ones related to meningitis/LP.

Last EPB, DH was mostly immobile with exception of bathroom and eating for 4 days. Our understanding of EPB blood clotting is that it begins to dissolve after 3-4 days.... is that not correct?

Gotta run get the kiddos going for the day! Thanks for help!

LauraL840
05-01-2007, 09:34 AM
I'm going to try and not freak out right now, but I just pulled a tick out of my DD's ear. It had to be there since yesterday....

eman
05-01-2007, 04:34 PM
Laura,

if it makes you feel any better. I've been diagnosed with persistant CSF leaks due to prior trauma, and I have pressure pain both being up and down. All I have to do is turn my head wrong while laying down to bring on the pressure. This is only a different presentation. I never feel normal now, even when I wake up in the morning, something feels wrong inside my head. It definitely intensifies while being upright, and takes a long time to go away when I lay down. This exact same presentation happened to me after the first LP. You will probably have to have a CT-Myelogram to get docs to try anything. I'm looking for someone with the balls to try some fibrin glue injections on the known puncture sites, but this might be impossible. Let us know...


eman

LauraL840
05-01-2007, 05:07 PM
I'm looking for someone with the balls to try some fibrin glue injections on the known puncture sites, but this might be impossible. Let us know...
eman


Have you tried contacting any of the leading authors (doctors) who've published journal articles or research on fibrin usage?

I was EXTREMELY desperate to find out more information about RMSF and how it damages tissue when my DH was sick and not recovering as expected. In desperation I contacted 3 different doctors by email who were 'published' and had done extensive research on RMSF effects. Two of the 3 contacted me back and were very helpful.

Also, if you have a teaching hospital nearby, you might find help in that manner. Crazy as it sounds, I am convinced that one of the reasons we got in so quickly (usually a 6-8 week wait to get in neuro and we were seen 2 days after the referral) was that we got a 2nd year neuro resident and my DH was beyond unusual in his presentation. His doctor has been amazing! She LISTENS to us, does NOT disregard the research we've done, answers ALL our questions (if she can), etc. Heck, she even sat down with me and my DH's MRI (on CD) and let me 'drive' through his images and ask SPECIFIC questions about what I saw and was concerned about, and has even been willing to order tests because we asked for them. EX: I wanted him to have blood drawn and tested for several other tick-borne illnesses. While not widely accepted in the medical community, it is possible for ticks to be co-infected with LOTS of diseases. Any one of which could have been contributing to him not recovering. Plus, my DD had Lyme's disease 6 weeks before my DD contracted RMSF. We're in NC, highly endemic region for nasty ticks, so that's why pulling another tick off my DD is so alarming for me!!!!!:eek: :eek: Also, because she's a resident, she QUICKLY consults with the top doctors in her field and we don't have to wait for an appt to see them. DH's first appt at UNC in 2/07 lasted for 3.5 hours, she was with us MOST of that time!

Anyway, that's way more 'stuff' for you to muddle through, but hopefully helpful!