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MS Bites
04-19-2007, 04:31 PM
Anyone have info on what symptoms or problems are with a lesion at C3/4?

Erin
04-19-2007, 04:44 PM
I have a lesion at C-4.

I still dont know much about what the lesion is affecting, but I do have l'hermmittes, numbness in both arms, both legs (the leg numbness might be from the lesion at T-12) and the back of my neck is numb, and sometimes my left ear will feel numb.

If you find out more information, post it please?

lady_express_44
04-19-2007, 05:05 PM
I do. It caused a Transverse Myelitis attack for me, where I was had virtually all of the symptoms listed in this link:

http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/transversemyelitis/detail_transversemyelitis.htm#41903234

When it is that lesion causing the problems, you will likely start to go numb either on one or both sides.

Is there anything happening with you, or are you just curious what CAN happen?

Cherie

MS Bites
04-20-2007, 10:10 PM
geez, that sounds like me............. why has this never been mentioned by the gazillion neuros I've seen....?

lady_express_44
04-21-2007, 03:08 AM
They didn't explain it to me either; I discovered it on the internet, and then asked. :rolleyes:

I was originally told that I either had MS, or a virus had gotten into my central nervous system. They did a spinal tap, but it was botched so I am not sure what, if any, results came from that testing.

It wasn't for another 12 yrs that I had another similar attack, and I finally agreed to an MRI. It was at that point that they told me my original attack was due to a spinal lesion in the T-spine, and the second attack was due to a new lesion in C3-4.

The symptoms for both "TM/MS" attacks were similar, but the second one encompassed even more of my body. The first time I was effected from the chest down, but the second time it involved my hands, ears, mouth, vocal cords, respitory, etc. too. I didn't heal as well from the second attack.

I don't know why they don't tell us more, but I have learned most of what I know from reading, talking, then verifying with my doc and neuro. Maybe they just think it's too technical or unpredictable to bother telling us. :confused:

Cherie

jena1225
04-21-2007, 10:54 AM
I do not have any spinal lesions as of yet. There was a post a while back that had a link to which parts of the brain/spine controlled what - anyone know where it is? I would love to have it.

Cherie - I have read a lot where paralsis typically comes from a "spinal" lesion, but mine was a very large lesion/black hole in like center part of the brain (can't recall name - pervinticular?) Is that unusal, do you know?

But if anyone knows where to find that lesion/sx chart, that would be great!

lady_express_44
04-21-2007, 11:52 AM
CEREBRUM - cognitive area; includes:

Parietal Lobe - receives and evaluates sensory information. It processes information about touch, taste, blood pH, pain, pressure and temperature. Inability to discriminate between sensory stimuli. Damage can cause inability to locate and recognize parts of the body (Neglect), severe Injury: Inability to recognize self, disorientation of environment space, inability to write.

Occipital Lobe - receives and integrates visual input. Can cause loss of ability to recognize object seen in opposite field of vision, "flash of light", "stars"

Temporal Lobe - receives and evaluates auditory and olfactory (smell) input. It's also associated with abstract thought, judgement and memory. Can cause hearing deficits, aggitation, irritability, childish behavior, receptive/sensory aphasia.

Somesthetic Cortex - Receives sensory input from varius parts of the body. If the primary sensory areas aren't intact, may not be aware of stimilus or not be able to tell where it's coming from.

Somesthetic Association area - takes visual input and compares it to what you already know. Damage can make it hard to recognize familar objects or people. It also puts 'emotional value' on objects, which can account for some phobias or attractions. You tend to pay more attention to something that's familiar and you have a strong 'association' with.

Primary Motor Area - controls voluntary movement especially fine movements in the hands. It sends the messages to stimulate muscles to contract or relax.

FRONTAL LOBE - helps coordinate movement (balance and muscle coordination). Damage may result in ataxia which is a problem of muscle coordination. This can interfere with a person's ability to walk, talk, eat, and to perform other self care tasks. Can cause impairment of recent memory, inattentiveness, inability to concentrate, behavior disorders, difficulty in learning new information. Lack of inhibition (inappropriate social and/or sexual behavior). Emotional lability. "Flat" affect. Contralateral plegia, paresis. Expressive/motor aphasia. Includes:

Premotor Area - determines which muscles must contract, in what order and to what degree, and sends the messages to the Primary Motor area. It also is involved in motivation and forethought, and helps control emotional behavior and mood. It lets people carry out complex skills and learned tasks, and affects manual dexterity. Damage can cause hesitency in performing actions that you have learned to do.

Prefrontal area - controls aggression and motivation. It's the area destroyed when a frontal lobotomy is performed, which controls aggression, but also affects personality and motivation in other areas.

Broca's Area (motor speech area) - initiates the movements needed to speak. Hesitant or distorted speech is usually from damage in this area. A word is formulated here as it will be spoken, then it sends the information to the premotor area to decide which muscles have to be used to actually speak it.

Wernicke's Area (sensory speech area) - responsible for understanding and formulating coherent speech. Problems naming objects, comprehending visual language (reading) and repeating spoken sentences can be from damage in this area. Poor word finding is caused by damage isolating this area from parietal or temporal association areas. Being able to speak fluently, but unintelligibly, or poor repetition but good comprehension, is usually caused by damage between this area and Broca's area.

BASAL GANGLIA - inhibits unwanted muscular activity and affects planning and co-ordinting movements and posture. Damage to the area can cause exaggerated or uncontrolled movements, chorea, tremors at rest and with initiation of movement, abnormal increase in muscle tone, difficulty initiating movement.

LIMBIC SYSTEM - influences emotions, responses to the emotions, motivation, mood and sensations of pain and pleasure. Can cause loss of sense of smell and loss of recent memory. Different parts of this system are:

Olfactory Cortex - smell can stimulate hunger in the hypothalamus, and the smell of pheromones bring about sexual attraction. Damage in this area can cause excessive/decreased appetite, increased/decreased sexual activity and increase/loss of fear/anger responses.
Hyppocamus - help transform information from short term to long term memory; damage can cause loss of memory.

Amygdala - mediates both inborn and acquired emotional responses. It seems to be involved in mediating both conscious and unconscious emotional feeling.

Hypothalamus - helps regulate body functions, such as temperature, water and fat metabolism, sleep, sexual activity and emotional control.

CEREBELLUM - Affects coordination and voluntary movement. Can cause tremors, nystagmus, ataxia and lack of coordination/balance. Includes:

Fluccolonodular Lobe - helps with balance Anterior - helps with gross motor coordination Posterior - helps with fine motor coordination All 3 compare signals received from different areas to keep them coordinated and give smooth movements. If retraining is needed, it helps with learning new functions and getting the right muscles to respond if the actions are repeated enough times.

BRAIN STEM - Neurological functions located in the brainstem include those necessary for survival (breathing, digestion, heart rate, blood pressure) and for arousal (being awake and alert). It is the pathway for all fiber tracts passing up and down from peripheral nerves and spinal cord to the highest parts of the brain. This includes: Medulla

Oblongata - primarily a relay station for the crossing of motor tracts between the spinal cord and the brain. It also contains the respiratory, vasomotor and cardiac centers, as well as many mechanisms for controlling reflex activities such as coughing, gagging, swallowing and vomiting

Midbrain - nerve pathway of the cerebral hemispheres and contains auditory and visual reflex centers

Pons - links different parts of the brain and serves as a relay station from the medulla to the higher cortical structures of the brain. It contains the respiratory center.
______________________________________________

SPINAL COLUMN

C1: blood supply to the head, pituitary gland, scalp, bones of the face, inner and middle ear, sympathetic nervous system, eyes, ears
C2: eyes, optic nerves, auditory nerves, sinuses, mastoid bones, tongue, forehead, heart
C3: cheeks, outer ear, face, bones, teeth, trifacial nerve, lungs
C4: nose, lips, mouth, Eustachian tube, mucus membranes, lungs
C5: vocal cords, neck glands, pharynx
C6: neck muscles, shoulders, tonsils
C7: thyroid gland, bursa in the shoulders, elbows, ulnar nerve

T1: arms from the elbows down, including hands, arms, wrists and fingers; esophagus and trachea, heart
T2: heart, including its valves and covering coronary arteries; lungs bronchial tubes
T3: lungs, bronchial tubes, pleura, chest, breast, heart
T4: gallbladder, common duct, heart, lungs, bronchial tubes
T5: liver, solar plexus, circulation (general), heart, esophagus,
stomach
T6: stomach, esophagus, peritoneum, liver, duodenum
T7: kidneys, appendix, testes, ovaries, uterus, adrenal cortex, spleen, pancreas, large intestine
T8: spleen, stomach, liver, pancreas, gallbladder, adrenal cortex, small intestine, pyloric valve
T9: adrenal cortex, pancreas, spleen, gallbladder, ovaries, uterus, small intestine
T10: kidneys, appendix, testes, ovaries, uterus, adrenal cortex, spleen, pancreas, large intestine
T11: kidneys, ureters, large intestine, urinary bladder, adrenal
medulla, adrenal cortex, uterus, ovaries, ileocecal valve
T12: small intestine, lymph circulation, large intestine, urinary bladder, uterus, kdneys, ileocecal valve

L1: large intesine, inguinal rings, uterus
L2: appendix, abdomen, upper leg, urinary bladder
L3: sex organs, uterus, bladder, knee, prostate, large intestine L4: prostate gland, muscles of the lower back, sciatic nerve
L5: lower legs, ankles, feet, prostate

Sacrum: hip bones, buttocks, rectum, sex organs, genitalia, urinary bladder, ureter, prostate

Sacral Plexus: Forms the sciatic as well as other nerves that go to muscles, joints and other structures of the legs, knees, ankles, feet and toes

Coccyx: rectum, anus"

lady_express_44
04-21-2007, 12:11 PM
I do not have any spinal lesions as of yet. There was a post a while back that had a link to which parts of the brain/spine controlled what - anyone know where it is? I would love to have it.

Cherie - I have read a lot where paralsis typically comes from a "spinal" lesion, but mine was a very large lesion/black hole in like center part of the brain (can't recall name - pervinticular?) Is that unusal, do you know?

But if anyone knows where to find that lesion/sx chart, that would be great!

Jena,

I guess the symptom we had was in the category of "Plegia, Paraplegia, Hemiplegia, Tetraplegia, Quadraplegia", but was temporary for both of us (thankfully!).

What I don't really understand how brain lesions could cause the symptoms you had, and you are the first that I've heard say that brain lesions were the suspected cause of paralysis. I question whether they just haven't discovered your spinal lesion(s) yet (for some unknown reason) . . . but then again "they" don't seem to understand how damage correlates directly with our brain lesions that well yet either.

The result of spinal injuries are fairly well understood. For instance, if someone breaks their neck, depending on where (and how extensive) the damage is, this determines where the paralysis occurs, ie: quadriplegia and paraplegia:

http://www.apparelyzed.com/

My doc knew from the get go, based on my symptoms, where my lesions would be found in my spine.

Cherie

jena1225
04-21-2007, 12:24 PM
Thanks Cherie :) Also, I could feel everything, but just not move

Seems the lesions in the Basal Ganglia could explain my paralysis:

Signs: Right Cortical (nondominant) - this is always mentioned on reports as well)

Inattention
Left sided neglect (body, room, picture)
Bilateral simultaneous sensory testing
Bilateral simultaneous visual field testing
Denial
Patient denies that anything is wrong
Patient is not concerned that he is paralyzed
Constructional Apraxias
Draw a clock and fill in the numbers
Copy a diagram of a cube
Difficulty dressing (Dressing Apraxia)
Spatial Disorientation
Navigate a hallway from waiting room to exam room
Picture analysis
Local travel
Task impersistence
Protrude Tongue and maintain phonation ("ahhh")
Acute confusional state
Distribution of deficit
Left face and arm most affected
Middle Cerebral Artery CVA
Left leg more involved
Anterior Cerebral Artery CVA
Eye deviation look right in cortical left Hemiplegia
Eyes look at involved hemisphere
Eyes look away from the Hemiparesis
Visual Field deficit (also seen in subcortical lesion)

lady_express_44
04-21-2007, 12:43 PM
My symptoms were classic TM:

Transverse myelitis may be either acute (developing over hours to several days) or subacute (developing over 1 to 2 weeks).

One week for the left side, another for the right.

Initial symptoms usually include:

- localized lower back pain
- sudden paresthesias (abnormal sensations such as burning, tickling, pricking, or tingling) in the legs
- sensory loss
- paraparesis (partial paralysis of the legs). Paraparesis often progresses to paraplegia (paralysis of the legs and lower part of the trunk).
- Urinary bladder and bowel dysfunction is common.
- muscle spasms
- a general feeling of discomfort
- headache
- fever
- loss of appetite.

Yep, yep, yep . . . to all.

Depending on which segment of the spinal cord is involved, some patients may experience respiratory problems as well.

Only chest down the first time (T-spine), neck down the second time (C-spine).

From this wide array of symptoms, four classic features of transverse myelitis emerge:
(1) weakness of the legs and arms
(2) pain
(3) sensory alteration
(4) bowel and bladder dysfunction.

Most patients will experience weakness of varying degrees in their legs; some also experience it in their arms. Initially, people with transverse myelitis may notice that they are stumbling or dragging one foot or that their legs seem heavier than normal. Coordination of hand and arm movements, as well as arm and hand strength may also be compromised. Progression of the disease over several weeks often leads to full paralysis of the legs, requiring the patient to use a wheelchair.

That's me. :)

Pain is the primary presenting symptom of transverse myelitis in approximately one-third to one-half of all patients. The pain may be localized in the lower back or may consist of sharp, shooting sensations that radiate down the legs or arms or around the torso.

Me again.

Patients who experience sensory disturbances often use terms such as numbness, tingling, coldness, or burning to describe their symptoms.

Up to 80 percent of those with transverse myelitis report areas of heightened sensitivity to touch, such that clothing or a light touch with a finger causes significant discomfort or pain (a condition called allodynia). Many also experience heightened sensitivity to changes in temperature or to extreme heat or cold.

ARGH!!

Bladder and bowel problems may involve increased frequency of the urge to urinate or have bowel movements, incontinence, difficulty voiding, the sensation of incomplete evacuation, and constipation. Over the course of the disease, the majority of people with transverse myelitis will experience one or several of these symptoms.


I think I had every symptom described. It took 3 months to see significant recovery, and 18 months to figure out how much damage was left/"permanent".

After that, I started having "normal" MS attacks, back-to-back, every three months. The LDN seems to have stopped them for me (so far), and helped heal much of the residual symptoms from the TM attack.

Cherie

http://healthnewsflash.com/conditions/transverse_myelitis.htm#symptoms

mamamakk
04-22-2007, 12:13 AM
Hi Jena,

There is nothing unusual about the fact that your paralysis was caused by a lesion located in the brain and not on the spinal cord. The number one cause of paralysis in the US is stroke and traumatic brain injury. Strokes cause damage to brain tissue and not spinal cord tissue yet people still end up not able to use their limbs or completely paralyzed.

In the case of damage to the brain itself, the nerve pathways that relay the information to the area that needs to be moved becomes damaged. We need the brain to be the master controller and if certain areas are not up and running, then the corresponding functions of the body will not be either. I know this is a simplistic explanation but you can read much more in an anatomy and physiology text book.

You are correct when you said that you could still feel touch in your paralyzed areas but could not move them. This is typical of stroke patients too. They can understand speech but may not be able to speak, they may be able to speak but not be able to recall the right word for an object even though they know what it is, they can feel but not move, they may still have all the components of a swallow reflex but not coordinate them in order to swallow safely, etc.

All of this happens because the brain tissue was damaged yet the nerves that innervate different organs or limbs are not damaged. An EMG in a person who suffered a brain lesion or stroke would be normal while someone with transverse myelitis would usually have an abnormal EMG. Hope this helps a little.

lady_express_44
04-22-2007, 03:15 AM
Great explanation, Mamamakk. Makes sense to me. :)

Cherie

jena1225
04-22-2007, 11:50 AM
Thanks Mamamakk :)

Makes a lot of sense. Simplistic is better for me :D